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Do Bible Sabbath keepers and the Catholic Church Agree on Certain points?

DamianWarS

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There is no difference between the two as both address the fact that man's ways are contrary to the ways of the Kingdom. Those of the Kingdom understand that we have it backwards (focusing on self rather than acting in servitude to God and each other) not only understaffing the reason for the ten commandments, but also understanding that we have it backwards, thus written in our hearts thanks to Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom. Had the religion focused more on the Kingdom of God rather than on us and our salvation, perhaps this would not be such an issue, but then again hey, we are backwards thinkers, thinking self is more important than the will of God.
You speak of purpose, intent or spirit that hasn't changed, not literal letters. The 10 commandments "as-is" is a contextualized form of God's character intended for an Old Covenant context. But "as-is" they are limited and are more about resisting evil through a list of do-not-cross thresholds and can be exploited. The NT teaches Christ's law, which is loving others as yourself, as a fulfillment of the law (not just the 10).

There is a clear language difference between Christ's law and the 10 commandments. Even if you argue their goals are aligned Christ's law operates at a more fundamental level than the 10 adding more resolution to the 10 which are only broad commandments. I would even say it goes beyond a summary, as a summary would not be to "love your neighbour as yourself", but rather "do no harm to others" would be more fitting of the 10. Christ challenges us to go beyond this thinking, and rather than avoid harm/evil, we should be active in doing good.

Commandments 5-10 are more about how we treat each other so broadly people assign "love your neighbour as yourself" to these 6 and 1-4 with the shema (love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind....") Since the Shema is a monothesitic claim in that space there can be no idoltary, taking God's name in vain, or graven images. The 4th is also a monotheistic claim as it points back to a monothestic creation account, so affirming the 4th affirms in a one-God-creation account. The Deut. account of the 10 puts a different spin and anchors the 4th not to creation but to God as the liberator from the Egyptians. Both however, point to God as the central focus without competition and drawn on monotheistic values.

The difference with the 4th is that its requirement is in the weekly ceremony of rest, and its mandatory response is at a conditional level than simply a do or do not threshold moral. Work itself is not inherently wrong, but idolatry, graven images or using God's name in vain is always wrong. Christ's comments on the 4th in Mat 12:12 telling us "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" here he compares the action of lawful rest against the action of goodness, showing that goodness is the better way. Christ's law broadly shows that goodness/love is lawful; we all agree to this, but silently assign it to a limited context. However, Mat 12:12 challenges the idea that goodness relates only to the commandments 5-10. Here Christ spills into the 4th commandment and shows that goodness/love is central to its focus, even at the cost of the requirement of the letter. But here's the rub, our call to do goodness/love others never ends so in that space in our every action demonstrates this love, then our actions are always lawful. This of course is only defined with Christ, and not on our own power, but if we are walking according to the spirit then it effective makes the 4th commandment obsolete. We may infact "work" on the sabbath or not work, so long our steps are aligned with the spirit it is lawful.
 
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timothyu

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they are limited and are more about resisting evil through a list of do-not-cross thresholds and can be exploited. The NT teaches Christ's law, which is loving others as yourself, as a fulfillment of the law (not just the 10).
Of course. The OTFolks had no kingdom to look forward to and death was not defeated. They were given rules to get along in this life. That still holds true post-Jesus but we also have two different worlds to chose from now understanding their contrary differences
 
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Capbook2

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This of course is only defined with Christ, and not on our own power, but if we are walking according to the spirit then it effective makes the 4th commandment obsolete. We may infact "work" on the sabbath or not work, so long our steps are aligned with the spirit it is lawful.
As you state if our "steps are aligned with the Spirit it is lawful, as the Spirit makes the 4th commandment obsolete," would that mean the Spirit would led us to disobey Christ's example for us to follow His steps?

The word "steps" in 1 Peter 2:21, which bears Strong#G2487, in Greek "ἴχνος ichnos" defined by Bible Lexicons as -in order that you should live as he did' or 'in order that you should imitate his manner of conduct', imitating the example of anyone, line of conduct and etc.

As Christ throughout His lifetime kept and observed the seventh day Sabbath, would the Spirit led us not to live as Christ live or not imitate His example to follow Him, as professed Christian?

1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

1Pe 2:21 For R1you have been calledG2564 for thisG3778 purpose, R2sinceG3754 ChristG5547 alsoG2532 sufferedG3958 for you, leavingG5277 you R3an exampleG5261 for you to followG1872 in His stepsG2487,

G2487 (Louw & Nida Greek-English Lexicon)

'in order that you should live as he did' or 'in order that you should imitate his manner of conduct' 1 Peter 2:21.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

G2487 (Thayer Lexicon)
ἴχνος ichnos
1) a footprint, track, footstep
2) in the NT, metaphorically of
imitating the example of any one

G2487 (Mounce Lexicon)
ἴξνος ichnos
3x: a footstep, track; in NT pl. footsteps,
line of conduct, Rom_4:12; 2Co_12:18; 1Pe_2:21.
 
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BobRyan

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Of course. The OTFolks had no kingdom to look forward to and death was not defeated. They were given rules to get along in this life. That still holds true post-Jesus but we also have two different worlds to chose from now understanding their contrary differences
sounds like two different gospels. One for the OT and one for the NT in your post.

Gal 1:6-9 states that there is only one gospel.
Gal 3:8 says that the one and only Gospel "was preached to Abraham"
Heb 10:4-5 says the blood of animals never forgave even one sin. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith just as we are today.
 
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BobRyan

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There is a clear language difference between Christ's law and the 10 commandments. Even if you argue their goals are aligned Christ's law operates at a more fundamental level than the 10

Not according to Christ in Matt 5.
Not according to Heb 8 where we find it is Christ speaking the Ten at Sinai
 
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timothyu

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sounds like two different gospels. One for the OT and one for the NT in your post.
Jesus had only one gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom of which I spoke. He put it in the Lord’s Prayer. It was about a place where God would reunite with mankind, removing governance from mankind and elohim once and for all. Good news the world had not had since before Babel. Prior to Jesus death had not been defeated in order to make allegiance a valid choice. The Holy Land post-Abraham was but one nation among 70 others whereas the Kingdom would rule all once again.
 
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DamianWarS

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Not according to Christ in Matt 5.
Not according to Heb 8 where we find it is Christ speaking the Ten at Sinai
Mat 5 doesn't uniquely address the 10 commandments, although examples pull from the 10, Christ also pulls from outside the 10, the text itself can't responsibly be used to isolate the 10 from their covenant (in fact no text can). What Christ addresses is the law and the prophets, such as what we see in the opening context of law in v17.

Heb 8 quotes Jer 31 and speaks of a new covenant that is unlike the old. It's a moot point as to who the speaker is as the Father, Son and Spirit are always in full agreement. What Heb 8 concludes is that the old has been made obsolete by Christ which is a completed action already performed by Christ upon the old. The exact word is πεπαλαίωκεν, which is a specific meaning of "he-has-made-old/obsolete" because the new is presented alongside, and as a better way, "obsolete" is what is in practice happening. This can be coupled with Rom 7:6 where Christ releases us from the letter of the old. Again, it is a completed action perfom upon us releasing us from the old covenant terms (as it unpacked in 7 with the mariage covenant example) This does include the 10 as well.

So if we remofe the ithout the are murder, steal, lying, etc... no longer defined as sin? No, and this line of thinking is a strawman; sin remains as sin, so murdering, stealing, lying still remain sin. There is complete instruction in the new covenant that continues to view these as sinful boadly as well as specifcally. The 10, however, reveals these as moral thresholds, where the new covenant reveals these as actions that are rooted in the heart. The focus of the 10 is to resist doing evil, where the focus of the new covenant is to actively pursue loving each other in all actions. You may argue it has the same product, but with the new it impacts our actions at a far more base level, this and coupled with walking in the spirit no sin is left in the gaps where there are many gaps when you isolate the 10.
 
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DamianWarS

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As you state if our "steps are aligned with the Spirit it is lawful, as the Spirit makes the 4th commandment obsolete," would that mean the Spirit would led us to disobey Christ's example for us to follow His steps?

The word "steps" in 1 Peter 2:21, which bears Strong#G2487, in Greek "ἴχνος ichnos" defined by Bible Lexicons as -in order that you should live as he did' or 'in order that you should imitate his manner of conduct', imitating the example of anyone, line of conduct and etc.

As Christ throughout His lifetime kept and observed the seventh day Sabbath, would the Spirit led us not to live as Christ live or not imitate His example to follow Him, as professed Christian?

1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

1Pe 2:21 For R1you have been calledG2564 for thisG3778 purpose, R2sinceG3754 ChristG5547 alsoG2532 sufferedG3958 for you, leavingG5277 you R3an exampleG5261 for you to followG1872 in His stepsG2487,

G2487 (Louw & Nida Greek-English Lexicon)

'in order that you should live as he did' or 'in order that you should imitate his manner of conduct' 1 Peter 2:21.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

G2487 (Thayer Lexicon)
ἴχνος ichnos
1) a footprint, track, footstep
2) in the NT, metaphorically of
imitating the example of any one

G2487 (Mounce Lexicon)
ἴξνος ichnos
3x: a footstep, track; in NT pl. footsteps,
line of conduct, Rom_4:12; 2Co_12:18; 1Pe_2:21.
Jesus not only kept entire Jewish law as well as all Jewish festivals and ceremonies, including circumcision and he also didn't marry. Your logic would force these "steps" upon all Christian living, but what you actually only intend to keep are the 10 and throw out the rest. You have made a line of what steps of Christ to follow and what steps of Christ not to follow, yet wag the finger at me when I do the same. How can I respect such remarks?
 
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Capbook2

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Jesus not only kept entire Jewish law as well as all Jewish festivals and ceremonies, including circumcision and he also didn't marry. Your logic would force these "steps" upon all Christian living, but what you actually only intend to keep are the 10 and throw out the rest. You have made a line of what steps of Christ to follow and what steps of Christ not to follow, yet wag the finger at me when I do the same. How can I respect such remarks?
This thread is about Sabbath keeping that's why I focus on the Ten which the seventh day Sabbath is the fourth.
Did I mentioned anything about throwing the rest?
Isn't that a misrepresentation of my point?
 
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HIM

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The focus of the 10 is to resist doing evil, where the focus of the new covenant is to actively pursue loving each other in all actions. You may argue it has the same product, but with the new it impacts our actions at a far more base level, this and coupled with walking in the spirit no sin is left in the gaps where there are many gaps when you isolate the 10.
No it was always to be from Love. The difference between the Covenants is the ministry of them. The old the Law was ministered by the Ten and the Book through priests. The New the Law is ministered through the Spirit into our minds and hearts.

Yet here we are. You and I and everyone else here still relying on the Book, the New Testament and Old.
 
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DamianWarS

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This thread is about Sabbath keeping that's why I focus on the Ten which the seventh day Sabbath is the fourth.
Did I mentioned anything about throwing the rest?
Isn't that a misrepresentation of my point?
It's forced in your point. if you smuggle in the 4th because Jesus kept the 4th then everything Jesus kept must also come with it, including the sacrafice, circumcision, calibacy, all Jewish festivals, all Mosaic law, how about a 40 day fast from both water and food?

Your argument is a hasty generalization, and if you are unwilling to commit to everything you cannot make a claim purely because Jesus did therefore we must also do it and need something else to back it up. Jesus also wore 1st century Jewish clothing so should we also wear the same?

There is more to Jesus than a silent model that we follow. The law points to him and he fulfills law, he usher in a new covenant through his blood sacrafice releasing us from the letter of law (Rom 7:6) and has made the old obsolete (Heb 8:13). Through him we are made holy and have the Spirit dwell in us so that we may walk according to the Spirit. All of these are through Jesus which we cannot do or ourselves, Jesus must do the action for us.

Jesus also taught how to follow him and does not require every cultural, ceremonial or covenantal practice to be automatically binding simply because he did it. The weak points of this are very clear things you don't practice that Jesus did (I don't need to know specifics to know that this is true) and a failure to present teaching on the subject consistent with your view then only falling on "Jesus did it therefore...."

Jesus does comment on the Sabbath showing us the practice of goodness is superior therefore should we not be seeking opportunities to do goodness even if it involves work on the Sabbath? But why wait until the Sabbath? Just make a habbit of always doing goodness then you will always be lawful regardless of what day it is.

I suspect your logic is circular. Going something like:

the 10 are the moral law of God therefore we must keep it.

Q1: why are they the moral law of God?
A1: Because God wrote it with his finger.
Q2: Why does that make it the moral law of God?
A2: We know because Jesus kept them.
Q3: Jesus also kept all the law.
S3: Yes, but the 10 are the moral law of God so we know it's universal
(repeat back to Q1 and go forever)

Your position lacks biblical substance, critical thinking and is mainly based on traditional claims and expressions that are not actually scriptually based. You just keep circling back to the same tropes, Jesus kept the 4th, God wrote it with his finger, they were put in the ark, etc... therefore they are the moral law of God and are have universal requirement. That last part needs more biblical support to separate the 10 like this.
 
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Capbook2

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It's forced in your point. if you smuggle in the 4th because Jesus kept the 4th then everything Jesus kept must also come with it, including the sacrafice, circumcision, calibacy, all Jewish festivals, all Mosaic law, how about a 40 day fast from both water and food?
Firstly, as I've said this thread is about Sabbath keeping, that's why my focus is in it.
Secondly, to left nothing, we can include all the 613 Laws in the Pentateuch but we must be reminded that the seventh day Sabbath still included in it.
Your argument is a hasty generalization, and if you are unwilling to commit to everything you cannot make a claim purely because Jesus did therefore we must also do it and need something else to back it up. Jesus also wore 1st century Jewish clothing so should we also wear the same?
I think we both believe on freewill, but I prefer to follow Christ's teachings about our salvation.

There is more to Jesus than a silent model that we follow. The law points to him and he fulfills law, he usher in a new covenant through his blood sacrafice releasing us from the letter of law (Rom 7:6) and has made the old obsolete (Heb 8:13). Through him we are made holy and have the Spirit dwell in us so that we may walk according to the Spirit. All of these are through Jesus which we cannot do or ourselves, Jesus must do the action for us.
Yes, the word "released" means "free from," being freed from sinning and became slave of righteousness means "freed from the Law."(Rom 6:18)
Jesus also taught how to follow him and does not require every cultural, ceremonial or covenantal practice to be automatically binding simply because he did it. The weak points of this are very clear things you don't practice that Jesus did (I don't need to know specifics to know that this is true) and a failure to present teaching on the subject consistent with your view then only falling on "Jesus did it therefore...."
Yes, there are revelation of Jesus shown to John that I prefer to believe that to be called "saints" is to persevere in keeping God's Commandments and our faith in Jesus, whom will be spared from the lake of fire, the second death.
Yes, I also believe that some of what you've mentioned weren't required.

Jesus does comment on the Sabbath showing us the practice of goodness is superior therefore should we not be seeking opportunities to do goodness even if it involves work on the Sabbath? But why wait until the Sabbath? Just make a habbit of always doing goodness then you will always be lawful regardless of what day it is.
Yes, there were good works done by Jesus on Sabbath especially when involves life. Doing good works is the result of being saved, should be done every opportunities comes, 24/7.

I suspect your logic is circular. Going something like:

the 10 are the moral law of God therefore we must keep it.
You can review all our responses and I'm sure you can never find me used the term "moral Law."
Q1: why are they the moral law of God?
A1: Because God wrote it with his finger.
Q2: Why does that make it the moral law of God?
A2: We know because Jesus kept them.
Q3: Jesus also kept all the law.
S3: Yes, but the 10 are the moral law of God so we know it's universal
(repeat back to Q1 and go forever)

Your position lacks biblical substance, critical thinking and is mainly based on traditional claims and expressions that are not actually scriptually based. You just keep circling back to the same tropes, Jesus kept the 4th, God wrote it with his finger, they were put in the ark, etc... therefore they are the moral law of God and are have universal requirement. That last part needs more biblical support to separate the 10 like this.
I believe most of my responses were quoted from the Bible, if you can review our responses I maybe have more Biblical quotations than what you believe.
Also I think I've abide within the scope of the topic as this thread is about Sabbath keeping.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Should we stop here, when Paul tells us what he is serving in this very passage?

Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

What is Paul still serving? Which law is Paul being delivered from?

Rom 7:25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul teaching us to sin and break the law of God?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul himself says he serves the law of God- where does he say those who serve sin end up?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So obviously Paul who is hard to understand, some to ones own destruction 2Peter3:16 which I say sin unto death is just that, is not teaching we do not have to serve the law of God who Paul himself says he serves. Not in letter- no longer external, but internal, same law of God because God said so Deut 4:13 Psa89:34 Ecc3:14 Exo20:20 Rev14:6-12 Mat5:18-19, but written on the heart so it becomes who we are. Loving God with all our heart Duet6:5, loving our neighbor Rom13:9 written in our minds to do them, written in our hearts because we love Him and delight to do His will Psa 40:8 subjecting ourselves to His Spirit who enables us to keep God's commandments John14:15-19. God never separated love to Him from keeping His commandments- He stated this right in the Ten Commandments Exo20:6 that God Himself wrote and loving God the way God said to, has never changed. 1John5:3 Rev14:12. Man is the one who has gone away from how God said to love Him, not the other way around.

Sadly, not everyone accepts serving the law of God so by default what are they serving. Rom6:16 Rom7:25

Rom8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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DamianWarS

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Firstly, as I've said this thread is about Sabbath keeping, that's why my focus is in it.
Secondly, to left nothing, we can include all the 613 Laws in the Pentateuch but we must be reminded that the seventh day Sabbath still included in it.

the topic is about Sabbath law but that doesn't give you license to promote biblically inconsistent views simple because you want to stay in a Sabbath vacuum.

Saying Jesus kept the 4th therefore we must too invokes the logic that we also must keep every other thing Jesus does as well which is the inconsistent part and where your reasoning falls apart.

You've introduced the inconsistencies, I'm just calling you out. We don't need to talk about any customs or other laws Jesus was under and kept but that doesn't mean we get to pick special conditions for the ones we like and forget about the rest.

I think we both believe on freewill, but I prefer to follow Christ's teachings about our salvation.

I won't comment on this

Yes, the word "released" means "free from," being freed from sinning and became slave of righteousness means "freed from the Law."(Rom 6:18)

Perhaps you should read the build up before Rom 7:6. verses 1-5 show us a covenant relationship that we are released form. not of a sin relationship but out of covenant responsibility and care. the analogy Paul uses is of a marriage where when one dies the other is released from the marriage vows. He does not say the marriage was of sin or unwanted, but his point is a death triggers a release from the covenant relationship. the analogy is clear, the old marriage is the old covenant, the death is from Christ where we share in his death which triggers the release and in resurrection we enter a new covenant.

Yes, there are revelation of Jesus shown to John that I prefer to believe that to be called "saints" is to persevere in keeping God's Commandments and our faith in Jesus, whom will be spared from the lake of fire, the second death.
Yes, I also believe that some of what you've mentioned weren't required.

you will have to unpack this more. simply going off of anecdotes or feelings is very weak support. But if you can agree that all that Jesus did is not required to keep then why is the 4th required simply because Jesus did it?

Yes, there were good works done by Jesus on Sabbath especially when involves life. Doing good works is the result of being saved, should be done every opportunities comes, 24/7.

and Jesus calls this goodness lawful, even if it involves work on the Sabbath. He also shows that goodness is superior to the strict letter of the 4th. this begs the question if we are practicing goodness is the 4th needed? and if we are not practicing goodness then we need to ask why we aren't (and start doing it). if the goal is always goodness, and we keep it, then we are always 4th commandment compliant.

believe most of my responses were quoted from the Bible, if you can review our responses I maybe have more Biblical quotations than what you believe.
Also I think I've abide within the scope of the topic as this thread is about Sabbath keeping.
quoting the Bible doesn't make your argument less circular or clear up all the contradictions. instead of quoting isolated verses and stringing together a thematic/topical view, show how the teaching is confirmed through biblical sources that aren't just anacdotal. And yes it's anacdotal to say the finger of God wrote it and Jesus kept it therefore we must keep it too. Those may be true but they dont inform us of new covenant teaching/instructions. Unless you can anchor them to new covenant teaching they are just contextual details of place and time.

Jesus kept the 4th commandment and the rest of Jewish law because he was a Jew born under the old covenant. He wore culturally appropriate clothing for a 1st century Jewish man too, becuase he was a Jewish man in the 1st century. These have very clear reasons why they happened for their context but what you're missing is support, not that that they happen but why they are requirements in the new covenant. don't say "because they are the commandments of God" this is circular because you only define commandments of God through the 10 and when I also for support then the finger of God anacdotes come out. think more critically and show a biblical link to your answer.

for example here is a biblical link for commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 tells us "what counts is the commandments of God". so what are the commandments? well Gal 5:6 and 6:15 have mirror versions of these verses and help shed light on what Paul meant by commandments. when these verses are compared it is clear the commandments of God point to new covenant revelation of love expressed through faith (5:6) which is the new creation (6:15) and this is consistent with Christ's law which Paul says fullfills the entire law (including the 10) in 5:14 which is the immediate context. but no where points back to the 10. it's a closed loop and you can't inject the 10 into it simply becuse you want to.
 
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Aldebaran

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I think anything said in this post is too mild to be considered a violation, especially considering that some of the statements made by the reporter could also be considered to be mildly inflammatory.

I vote this as NV
 
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