The Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgement.

BobRyan said:

How many "God men" do you think there are in Dan 7:9-10??
You are reaching for straws now.

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I’m not reaching for anything - that the Ancient of Days is Jesus Christ is the prevailing interpretation of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and many other denominations has been since the first millenium, with only a very few arguing that that was the Father due to the very obvious problem that it would make the Apostle John out to have made a false statement, since St. John plainly says that no one has seen the Father at any time, except through the Son.

What do you mean by “God men” plural and how many do you think there are?

In Daniel 7:9-10 I see only one deity present, that being God in the person of the Incarnate Logos.

Now additionally your use of the phrase “God men” is concerning because it suggests confusion either on the nature of the Trinity (the three persons of the Trinity are not like three men, in that they are consubstantial, coeternal, coequal and indivisible; the Trinity is not compounded and cannot be divided into parts and where one is present all three are present; neither is it the case that the Father, Son or Holy Spirit are distinct modes, rather they are persons who are hypostatically distinct but otherwise united. Really this is basic Christology going back to well before the Council of Nicaea.

Since God the Father is not incarnate and Has not revealed himself visually, St. John has said that none have seen Him, except through the Son. The Holy Spirit conversely has been seen visually but no quotations are attributed to Him in the Bible except when speaking through others, which makes Him very mysterious. We have conversely heard the Father aloud but not viewed him visually.

The Liturgist said:

I’m not reaching for anything - that the Ancient of Days is Jesus Christ is the prevailing interpretation of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and many other denominations has been since the first millenium, with only a very few arguing that that was the Father due to the very obvious problem that it would make the Apostle John out to have made a false statement, since St. John plainly says that no one has seen the Father at any time, except through the Son.

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Can you please explain your take on this portion though?


Certainly the one who said before Abraham was I AM is God. But does it not appear that the Son of Man here is in the presence of the Ancient of Days? Perhaps you could clarify.

Likewise, John himself described something similar:

BobRyan said:

You failed once again to admit the obvious point that the act of identifying the saints must by definition identify those who are not

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You failed to point to anything in Daniel 7 that says the saints have to be identified. The text described them with no such stipulation. Judgment was given in favor of the saints, who were already described. No judgment was said to "identify" them.

And the text spells out at length the activities of the beast powers, three of which were certainly not professed followers of God, but who were judged in this judgment.

So this doesn't match Ellen White's statement regarding the IJ:

The cases of non-professed believers were considered in Daniel 7--it doesn't match the criteria.

Nor does Romans 2, because that includes all people--not just the professed people of God.

But you also failed to address the problem of Ellen White's categories.

If the onlooking intelligences can only trust God once the evidence is presented, then the IJ fails from the outset. It Never goes through the books to see who were professed followers of God to start with. But it says only professed followers of God are included. So if these intelligences are not omniscient, and we agree, they are not, then they would need to establish that from the books, if that is the point.

And most of all, you completely ignored the straight-forward texts that describe that the secrets of the heart are revealed at His coming. And they describe what actually takes place when believers appear before the judgment seat of Christ in person, and bow, and kneel, and confess, and give an account, and receive their reward). These are completely out of step with the IJ where people don't even realize the judgment happened.



Daniel 7 says nothing about figuring out who the saints are. And you refuse to respond to clear texts that contradict the IJ doctrine:

BobRyan said:

There is no "saints already identified before the judgment" text in all of Rom 2 and Dan 7.

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Yes Bob, it does say they were saints before the Ancient of days came and a judgment was made.

And notice the judgment includes the giving of reward, the possessing of the kingdom. That of course matches the various texts which show judgment at the coming of Jesus.

BobRyan said:

Stick with the text

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Projecting Bob? You are the one claiming the judgment is to identify the saints--not said at all. And the text calls them saints. They are identified as such. That IS in the text.

BobRyan said:

She says "names are accepted... other names are rejected'. Do you simply "imagine" that the names rejected are still saints as well?
Seriously??

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I think her words don't match Daniel 7 at all! Daniel 7 describes the saints as saints before the judgment, and the judgment delivers the saints from the beast power. The various beasts are judged. Some lose their dominion and one is destroyed.

That has nothing to do with a judgment on the professed people of God only, and that is a review of individual cases. You are simply imposing your construct on Daniel 7.

BobRyan said:

It seems to me that you are not even trying to deal with the subject as it is stated.

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Oh of course I am! I am dealing with what Daniel actually says and noting it doesn't match up with Ellen White's statements.

And I am posting straight-forward texts that describe judgment in person, before Christ's throne, where we kneel, confess, give account, receive the reward, where hearts are revealed, etc.

You won't address those. So you are projecting again.

BobRyan said:

1. it is obvious that the saints are persecuted in Dan 7 the entire time the judgment of vs 9 and 10 is going on.

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It is clear they are called saints and persecuted before the Ancient of days comes and a judgment is made:

It is also clear that the text does not describe a judgment to figure out who the saints are.

And it is clear that this whole notion of the high priest in the earthly sanctuary, on the Day of Atonement being to go in and examine individual cases in books is a fiction to start with, as nothing of that sort is described in Lev. 16. The high priest made corporate provision through blood ministration. You have changed the type.

Why don't you stick to the text?

BobRyan said:

2. it is obvious that the wicked persecute the saints until the judgment completes according to Dan 7

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It is obvious they were before it started. And they are already identified as saints.

BobRyan said:

3. It is obvious from scripture that many of the wicked eventually become Christians

4. IT is obvious from place like Jude 1 and Matt 18 that some of the saints fail to persevere firm to the end

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By your logic no one is a saint until the IJ. But that is not what the text says:


It doesn't describe trying to figure out who the saints are. And God certainly knows His own, and who will persevere.

BobRyan said:

So then when the judgment of Dan 7 completes Christ takes over as the text says and persecution ends.

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The judgment includes rewards Bob. Just like all those texts about judging when He comes.

You can't find a description of the Adventist IJ. And you keep adding to the type in the first place.

Now why don't you address the straight-forward texts showing judgment at Jesus' coming, in His presence, with giving of rewards, including believers.

After all, you want us to stick with the text. But you are not wanting to address those at all.

reddogs said:

Tall, if you do not have the love of the truth, then what is there. We see what happened with many of Christs disciples...

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

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reddogs, if your view does not match Scripture it is not truth:

You presented Romans 14 and 2 Corinthians 5 as evidence for the Adventist IJ. And they don't match that:

We will

• stand before the judgment seat
• kneel
• bow
• confess
• give an account

Paul includes himself,and addresses believers, so this is a judgment that includes believers. But they are not absent, as in the Adventist IJ, and they are not unaware it is happening.

How do you explain this?

This also is not the Adventist IJ.

We

• appear before the judgment seat of Christ
• receive according to what we have done

That again is not the Adventist IJ, where we do not actually appear, or receive our reward.


Scripture in fact says when things hidden are brought to light, and the purposes of hearts are disclosed--at Jesus' coming. So there is no need to pronounce judgment before then.


Also, unless I missed it, you still have not spelled out how you get to 1844, which was the request that started this thread.

Was it too convoluted to present after all?

reddogs said:

There is a Investigative Judgment,

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False.

From the Adventist fundamental belief #24:


Leviticus shows that the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary. The priest is not reviewing cases and looking at books. Adventists have changed the type.



Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

reddogs said:

Assuming, as many Christians did, that the term “sanctuary” referred to the Earth, their conclusion was that Jesus would come and cleanse the Earth in 1844.

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You understated what Ellen White actually said about this:


To claim that the rest of the Christian world was ignorant of the book of Hebrews, and its reference to the heavenly sanctuary is completely untrue.

For centuries Christians had known and spoken of it.

Chrysostom:



Cyril of Jerusalem:



Augustine:



And not just centuries ago was this known, but was still known in the time leading up to 1844:

Matthew Henry:



Robert Haldane:



Albert Barnes:

tall73 said:

Certainly the one who said before Abraham was I AM is God. But does it not appear that the Son of Man here is in the presence of the Ancient of Days? Perhaps you could clarify.

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It’s important to remember that you can’t have one divine person present without the other two; this is why we call it the Holy and Undivided Trinity.

The Liturgist said:

It’s important to remember that you can’t have one divine person present without the other two; this is why we call it the Holy and Undivided Trinity.

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I agree with that. However, the passage in Daniel was used in patristic sources to demonstrate the glory of Jesus, such as in the dialogue with Trypho, etc. Son of Man particularly refers to Jesus in His incarnation, and was a favorite title of Jesus for HImself.

And you rightly indicate that the Spirit was seen in the form of a Dove. So if All are present when One is, I would think we have to take John's statement as more than just dealing with visibility, but that Jesus, in His incarnation, revealed God in a way we previously could not access or perceive.

tall73 said:

Daniel 7:21-22​

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (NKJV)​

Yes Bob, it does say they were saints before the Ancient of days came and a judgment was made.

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No doubt saints exist all along the way

Matt 7 says that it is not everyone that says "lord lord" that will be counted as saints in that judgment future to Matt 7
Rom 2:13 says it is the doers not merely the hearers of God's word "That WILL BE justified" (future justification to Paul's day)

2 Cor 5:10 says that in the future-to-Paul's day judgment the deeds done the body will be judged both the good and the bad ... and of course "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23

Paul shows in Rom 2:5-16 that the future day of judgment mentioned in Dan 7 does not result in "everyone judged gets eternal life"

So while it is true the God with infinite knowledge knows all all along, it it not true that everyone else in the room is also God.

Arbitrarily selecting out the saints to start with and telling everyone in the room "live with it" solves nothing... serves no purpose, does not address the Rom 2, 2 Cor 5;10 .... statements about how judgment actually works.

tall73 said:

And notice the judgment includes the giving of reward

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Not true since in Dan 7 saints are persecuted all during the judgment

(interesting that you keep leaving that detail out, even though we see it in Dan 7 where only at the completion of the Judgment are the saints freed from persecution)

Paul says in 2 Tim 4 that his judgment comes "at the last day" to everyone that loves Christ's appearing

tall73 said:

, the possessing of the kingdom. That of course matches the various texts which show judgment at the coming of Jesus.

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A failed proposal since it is impossible for saints to be subjected to persecution by the wicked in any sort of judgment that only happens "AT Christ's coming"

tall73 said:

I think her words don't match Daniel 7 at all! Daniel 7 describes the saints as saints before the judgment, and the judgment delivers the saints from the beast power. The various beasts are judged. Some lose their dominion and one is destroyed.​

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IN my presentation of the topic I point out that the judgment is decribed in both Dan 7 and Rom 2:5-16 where we do see the individual cases with some failing and some succeeding and the basis for that decision (being the same as what Christ describes in Matt 7)

tall73 said:

You failed to point to anything in Daniel 7 that says the saints have to be identified.

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My thread on this topic and my initial posts on this thread both show that Dan 7 along with Rom 2:5-16 do in fact deal with that very thing and show that some are rejected while others are accepted. I always show how both OT And NT combine to show the full picture of that judgment future to Paul's day and to Daniels' day and future even to the fall of the Roman Empire.

tall73 said:

And most of all, you completely ignored the straight-forward texts that describe that the secrets of the heart are revealed at His coming. And they describe what actually takes place when believers appear before the judgment seat of Christ in person, and bow, and kneel, and confess, and give an account, and receive their reward).

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Dan 7 is very clear that the saints are persecuted until the judgment ends

Your explanations keep avoiding that detail because it blocks your entire line of proposal.

tall73 said:

These are completely out of step with the IJ where people don't even realize the judgment happened.

1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.​

​

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Paul says it takes place future to his day.

Dan 7 and 8 combine to tell us when it started.

tall73 said:

Romans 2:2-16​

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (NKJV)​

​

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That shows the judgment as still future to Paul's day
Dan 7 shows us that the saints are persecuted until the judgment ends. you keep avoiding this detail
Dan 7, 8, 9 combine to show us when it starts.

Dan 7
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Your idea of first ending persecution and then starting the judgment does not fit the actual sequence God gives for judgment

BobRyan said:

No doubt saints exist all along the way

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Certainly there have been saints in various times.

But we were talking about the context of Daniel 7. And there, the particular saints in question are being persecuted by the little horn. And they are identified as saints before the judgment event started. And they inherit the kingdom as part of that judgment--which doesn't match the Adventist IJ. Their identity is not investigated during the judgment, but is stated before it even starts.

BobRyan said:

Matt 7 says that it is not everyone that says "lord lord" that will be counted as saints in that judgment future to Matt 7

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Of course. God knows those who will persevere though, and Daniel 7 describes them as the saints who are being persecuted. That is until the Ancient of days comes and conducts judgment--including the reward for beasts and saints.

And Bob you didn't post the text:


It does NOT say anything about a judgment that happened before. In fact, this is another text you have not dealt with, that shows judgment by Jesus, including Jesus confronting them in person, and showing evidence, revealing their hearts.

This goes right along with all the other texts that show the judgment at the coming of Jesus.

BobRyan said:

Rom 2:13 says it is the doers not merely the hearers of God's word "That WILL BE justified" (future justification to Paul's day)

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Yes, and those who were called saints and who inherit the kingdom in Daniel 7 would certainly meet that criteria. And they are identified before the judgment started as such:

BobRyan said:

2 Cor 5:10 says that in the future-to-Paul's day judgment the deeds done the body will be judged both the good and the bad ... and of course "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23

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Bob, you didn't quote the text again! And I have been quoting it for you quite a bit, because it doesn't match the Adventist IJ. But it does match the other texts that show judgment before Christ at the second coming.


We appear Bob--not are tried in absentia.
We RECEIVE the things done in the body, the reward.

This is in line with the other texts at His coming.

But it is not in line with the Adventist IJ where we don't appear, but are judged in absentia, and we don't receive our reward, because we don't even know our case was decided yet.

They don't match Bob.

BobRyan said:

Paul shows in Rom 2:5-16 that the future day of judgment mentioned in Dan 7 does not result in "everyone judged gets eternal life"

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Right! The future day of judgment in Daniel 7 happens when the Ancient of Days comes, per Daniel 7 and conducts a judgment. And when the Son of Man is led into His presence, and the holy ones are present.

And this is all explained by Jesus in the context of His coming, using the language of the Son of Man coming on the clouds, etc.:



So just as in Daniel 7 we see this judgment includes receiving the reward, inheriting the kingdom--and it happens at Jesus' coming.

And this is why it is also not talking about the Adventist IJ. The Adventist IJ deals with only professed followers of God. But Romans 2 talks about all people. And it also deals with rewards, which we don't receive at the IJ.

And Romans 2 also speaks of that, because it includes each getting their reward on the day when hearts are revealed. And we know when that is Bob:

BobRyan said:

So while it is true the God with infinite knowledge knows all all along, it it not true that everyone else in the room is also God.

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Nor do they need to be. They all see secrets of hearts revealed at Jesus' coming when He judges:

And those present will kneel, confess, give account, etc. which cannot happen at the Adventist IJ where they don't even know when their case comes up.

BobRyan said:

Arbitrarily selecting out the saints to start with and telling everyone in the room "live with it" solves nothing... serves no purpose, does not address the Rom 2, 2 Cor 5;10 .... statements about how judgment actually works.

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Bob, I didn't arbitrarily select the saints to start with. Daniel describes them to start with, before the judgment starts, and they inherit the kingdom in that judgment.

And you are not willing to look at what those various texts say about how the judgment really works, and when it really happens. Because they show people giving account, being confronted, receiving reward, etc. and the timing is stated to be at Jesus' coming.

BobRyan said:

Not true since in Dan 7 saints are persecuted all during the judgment

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No, the explanation says they were being persecuted until the Ancient of Days came. Then the judgment was made in favor of the saints.

BobRyan said:

Paul says in 2 Tim 4 that his judgment comes "at the last day" to everyone that loves Christ's appearing

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Yes, and again you don't actually quote it. And again it includes standing before the Righteous Judge and RECEIVING the reward. That doesn't happen at the IJ, because that is in absentia, and no one even knows their case came up, and no one receives reward there.

BobRyan said:

A failed proposal since it is impossible for saints to be subjected to persecution by the wicked in any sort of judgment that only happens "AT Christ's coming"

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No the explanation makes it plain.

Persecution---Ancient of Days comes and renders judgment--Saints inherit the kingdom:

That matches all the texts about judgment and receiving reward at Jesus' coming, but it does not match the in absentia IJ where no one even knew when their case came up, and people do not receive their rewards.

I quoted:


You replied:

BobRyan said:

Paul says it takes place future to his day.

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Of course, because you are not to pass judgment ahead of time, BEFORE THE LORD COMES.

BobRyan said:

Dan 7 and 8 combine to tell us when it started.

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Bob, it says right in the verse,


Daniel 7 doesn't disagree with that. And Jesus describes HIs coming using descriptions right from Daniel 7 of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven in glory, and with the angels. And in Daniel 7 people receive rewards.

This is of course all different than the in absentia IJ where no one knows there case came up and no one receives rewards.

BobRyan said:

That shows the judgment as still future to Paul's day
Dan 7 shows us that the saints are persecuted until the judgment ends.

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It shows they are persecuted until the Ancient of Days comes and and makes a judgment, and they inherit the kingdom:

BobRyan said:

you keep avoiding this detail
Dan 7, 8, 9 combine to show us when it starts.

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Bob, the various plain statements in the NT tell us when it starts, and so does Daniel 7.

BobRyan said:

Dan 7
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26

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Right Bob. They are persecuted. And then the Ancient of Days comes and delivers judgment, and they inherit the kingdom.

BobRyan said:

But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

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Right, perfectly in line with the NT texts.

They are persecuted. Then the Ancient of Days comes, judges, and they inherit the kingdom:


And of course this doesn't match the Adventist IJ in absentia and where no one receives rewards, and no one even knows their case is coming up.

But it fits the various NT texts you seem reluctant to address.

tall73 said:

Certainly there have been saints in various times.

But we were talking about the context of Daniel 7.

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Dan 7 shows us a judgment (corporate judgment" with myriads and myriads, where books are opened and the saints the one that pass that judgment while the wicked fail it. (vs 21-22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints") as we see in vs 21-22 where the saints are persecuted all during that judgment "UNTIL" judgment was passed in favor of the saints AND The time arrived for the saints to take possession of the kingdom.

You keep ignoring this detail IN the text.!!

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

There the particular saints in question are being persecuted by the little horn. All during the judgment

And they are identified as saints before the judgment event started

Saints can be persecuted without first having a corporate judgment. And after that judgment there is no point in allowing persecution of the saints once the corporate event that evaluates them completes.

you say "Their identity is not investigated during the judgment" and yet Rom 2:4-16 shows us that this preAdvent Investigative judgment does that very thing. The only way saints can be persecuted as that judgment continues is for it to go exactly as Dan 7 describes it.

tall73 said:

Daniel 7:21-22

1 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. (NKJV)​

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Indeed. Where that judgment process for each of the saints is described for us in Rom 2 (which you keep skipping in that regard)

ROMANS 2: (The identity and separation process of the judgment)
(God) will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Dan 7:
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


The one and only way that saints can be persecuted by the wicked the entire time UNTIL the judgment takes place and is passed in favor of the saints is for it to be exactly as Dan 7 states.

The only way the Most High is being spoken against, while saints are being worn down) as that judgment process of Rom 2 is going on, is for it to be exactly as Dan 7 shows it to be, which is prior to the coming of Christ.

Dan 7
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting

tall73 said:

Of course. God knows those who will persevere

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indeed this is not about God "learning something" it is about the judgment process with myriads in the court seeing the judgment that is based on things/evidence in those books of Dan 7:9-10

tall73 said:

though, and Daniel 7 describes them as the saints who are being persecuted. That is until the Ancient of days comes and conducts judgment--including the reward for beasts and saints

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The text does not say "until the judgment starts".

Rather it states that the saints are persecuted UNTIL Ancient of days comes AND judgment is passed in favor of the saints AND the time comes for the saints to take possession of the kingdom.

saints are persecuted UNTIL event A and event B and event C happens is how the texts has it.
(your suggestion so far , allows for no such thing to be true)

That is how a preAdvent judgment works.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

1. UNTIL the ancient of Days came
2. AND the judgment was passed in favor of..
3. AND the time arrived WHEN the saints took possession

• The judgment process of vs 9 - 10 begins before it ends. obvously
• With myriads and myriads of nonGod beings as witnesses
• With judgment proceeding along the lines scripture specifies in Rom 2 for success and failing cases
• Why books? because they are "judged out of the things written in the books"

tall73 said:

It does NOT say anything about a judgment that happened before.

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Dan 7

1. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Once the Rom 2 and Dan 7:9-10, 21-22 judgment is passed in favor of the saints "AND THE TIME CAME for the saints to take possession" of the kingdom, the Dan 7 text tells us there are problems for the persecuted saints.

tall73 said:

In fact, this is another text you have not dealt with, that shows judgment by Jesus, including Jesus confronting them in person, and showing evidence, revealing their hearts.

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Rev 20 has the GWT judgment after the 1000 years where God confronts the wicked directly . The judgment of the saints had completed 1000 years prior to that time as we see in Rev 20, the raptured saints are with Christ during the 1000 years as the Rev 20 text says. And at the end the wicked stand before God and are judged, then cast into the Lake of fire as the text says.

2 Peter 3 shows the common NT practice of collapsing the 1000 year span of time in Rev 19 and 20, into one single 'Day of the Lord" starting with the "coming of Christ" in Rev 19 and then including the lake of fire GWT event at the end of Rev 20 where the elements melt with fervent heat as a result of the GWT judgment.

tall73 said:

This goes right along with all the other texts that show the judgment at the coming of Jesus.

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2 PETER 3

2 Peter 3 describes the end of the world and the lake of fire , the end of the wicked, all taking place at Christ's appearing because it compress all of those discrete activities that take place over a literal 1000 year span of time, into a single "day of the Lord"

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way,

The promise OF HIS COMING vs 4
The DAY of the LORD vs 10
The Earth burned up vs 10

A series of events that span 1000 years of time as Rev 19 and 20 show us, all compressed and described as the one "DAY of the LORD" in 2 Peter 3

That is how the NT compresses the coming with all events in the "Day of the Lord". You keep referencing texts that use the 2 Peter 3 compression but don't reference 2 Peter 3 showing that compression over a period of 1000 years.


DANIEL 7

But Dan 7 gives us the detail of the preAdvent judgment where the saints are persecuted UNTIL That judgment is completed AND The time comes for the saints to take possession of the kingdom Dan 7:21-22

Dan 7
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

===================

IT is in that period between the Rev 19 (1 Thess 4:16-18, 2 Thess 1:5-) appearing of Christ and the Rev 20 GWT that we see the Earth desolate with no humans as Jer 4:23-26 shows us.

BobRyan said:

Dan 7 shows us a judgment (corporate judgment" with myriads and myriads, where books are opened and the saints the one that pass that judgment while the wicked fail it. (vs 21-22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints") as we see in vs 21-22 where the saints are persecuted all during that judgment "UNTIL" judgment was passed in favor of the saints AND The time arrived for the saints to take possession of the kingdom.

You keep ignoring this detail IN the text.!!

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

There the particular saints in question are being persecuted by the little horn. All during the judgment

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It doesn't say "all during the judgment."


They were persecuted until the Ancient of Days came and a judgment was made.

BobRyan said:

And they are identified as saints before the judgment event started

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Right, which doesn't help your case at all.

BobRyan said:

you say "Their identity is not investigated during the judgment" and yet Rom 2:4-16 shows us that this preAdvent Investigative judgment does that very thing.

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You have pointed to nothing in Romans 2 that says it is a pre-advent judgment.

BobRyan said:

The only way saints can be persecuted as that judgment continues is for it to go exactly as Dan 7 describes it.

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You didn't point out that they were persecuted as the judgment continued. You pointed to the same text I did that says they were persecuted until the Ancient of Days came and passed judgment.

BobRyan said:

Indeed. Where that judgment process for each of the saints is described for us in Rom 2 (which you keep skipping in that regard)

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I didn't skip it at all. I quoted it and noted that it doesn't give any timing. But the aspect of revealing secrets is given a timing in other straight-forward texts which you keep ignoring.

BobRyan said:

ROMANS 2: (The identity and separation process of the judgment)
(God) will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

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Yes, and that receiving of reward doesn't happen pre-advent.

BobRyan said:

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

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Yes, and we are told in straight-forward texts you keep avoiding that is at Jesus' coming.

BobRyan said:

Dan 7:
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


The one and only way that saints can be persecuted by the wicked the entire time UNTIL the judgment takes place and is passed in favor of the saints is for it to be exactly as Dan 7 states.

The only way the Most High is being spoken against, while saints are being worn down) as that judgment process of Rom 2 is going on, is for it to be exactly as Dan 7 shows it to be, which is prior to the coming of Christ.

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You haven't shown in either Daniel 7 or Romans 2 that it was prior.

And you keep ignoring plain NT texts that indicate it is at Jesus' coming.

And of course, you haven't explained why Adventists changed the entire Day of Atonement type in the first place, because the earthly high priest did not investigate individual record books in the most holy on the Day of Atonement, but presented atoning blood for the sins of the people.

BobRyan said:

Dan 7
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting

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Right he wears out the saints and speaks against the Most High,. But then the court sits and his dominion is taken away in judgment.

BobRyan said:

indeed this is not about God "learning something" it is about the judgment process with myriads in the court seeing the judgment that is based on things/evidence in those books of Dan 7:9-10

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Bob, that is exactly why it is talking about what the other texts are talking about. At Jesus' coming the things hidden in darkness are revealed, and the purposes of the heart are disclosed. AND they each receive commendation.

It is when He comes Bob.

BobRyan said:

The text does not say "until the judgment starts".

Rather it states that the saints are persecuted UNTIL Ancient of days comes AND judgment is passed in favor of the saints AND the time comes for the saints to take possession of the kingdom.

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Bob judgment is passed when He comes. And it matches the other texts as well.

BobRyan said:

saints are persecuted UNTIL event A and event B and event C happens is how the texts has it.
(your suggestion so far , allows for no such thing to be true)

That is how a preAdvent judgment works.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

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The saints are persecuted then the Lord comes and judges. The result of that judgment is the saints take possession of the kingdom.

BobRyan said:

1. UNTIL the ancient of Days came
2. AND the judgment was passed in favor of..
3. AND the time arrived WHEN the saints took possession

• The judgment process of vs 9 - 10 begins before it ends. obvously

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The judgment happens when He comes in Daniel, and other plain texts. It happens before His throne where He reveals the secrets of hearts.

BobRyan said:

2 Peter 3 shows the common NT practice of collapsing the 1000 year span of time in Rev 19 and 20, into one single 'Day of the Lord" starting with the "coming of Christ"

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Yes, now you got it Bob, when He comes:

BobRyan said:

That is how the NT compresses the coming with all events in the "Day of the Lord". You keep referencing texts that use the 2 Peter 3 compression but don't reference 2 Peter 3 showing that compression over a period of 1000 year

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Why would I need to? It all starts at His coming, not before.


Now Bob, why don't you address all the texts? Why don't you address how we stand, kneel, confess, give account, receive rewards, etc. as all of the various texts discuss, as we stand before the Righteous Judge on His throne--and how that doesn't match what the Adventist IJ says. It is all after He comes that this occurs, rather than an in absentia Adventist IJ where you don't even know something is happening.





Are you going to address them?

And are you going to explain why Adventists changed the entire Day of Atonement type in the first place?

The earthly high priest did not investigate individual record books in the most holy on the Day of Atonement, but presented atoning blood for the sins of the people.

tall73 said:

It sounds like John in the gospels is saying we don't have complete comprehension of God's full being, or direct access to him, but Jesus declares Him:

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This is also correct. And it is further expounded upon with the theological principle of the Essence / Energies distinction, wherein God is unknowable according to His essence, but His uncreated energies such as grace (we Orthodox maintain the Patristic view that divine grace is not a creature but an energy of God), love and mercy are knowable and can be interacted with, and we can also know Him through His incarnation, since the Logos put on our human nature and restored and glorified it, so that in Him we see the Father - the principle of communicatio idiomatum applies here in particular (this Christological principle, generally agreed upon by most mainstream and traditional Christians but of particular importance in Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Christology (after the latter was influenced by the Theopaschitism of the Oriental Orthodox theologian St. Severus of Antioch, whose hymn Ho Monogenes was added to the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy (Holy Communion service) and Typika service (service celebrated instead of the liturgy on some occasions such as when there is a Vesperal Divine Liturgy or when a presbyter is unavailable) by Emperor Justinian. At a later date, Justinian apparently renounced Theopaschitism and embraced the odd alternative known as “apthartodocetism” (which to be clear is not the heresy known as Docetism, but it is complicated, inelegant and makes my head hurt) and turned on the Oriental Orthodox community with violence, apparently, thus his wife St. Theodora acted to ensure that the Syriac Orthodox bishop St. Jacob bar Addai escaped arrest, and St. Jacob subsequently ordained around a hundred bishops, acting solus (by himself; normally bishops are ordained by three other bishops, but in emergencies this is not required, and this was very much an emergency), for which reason the Syriac Orthodox under the Patriarch of Antioch in India are called “Jacobites” (this term was also historically used as a perjorative along with the very much inaccurate label “monophysite” to refer to the Syriac Orthodox.

The beauty of the hymn Ho Monogenes is that it perfectly excludes Nestorianism and Eutychianism and all other major Christological errors, particularly those which try to claim compliance with the Creed such as Monothelitism:

O Only-begotten Son and Word of God, who art immortal, yet didst deign for our salvation to be incarnate of the Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary; and without change wast made man; and wast crucified also, O Christ our God, and by thy death didst Death subdue; who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified together with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.