Do Bible Sabbath keepers and the Catholic Church Agree on Certain points?

timothyu · Thursday at 2:52 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
So when He tells us how to serve Him Isa56:6, seems like an obvious choice in my view.

Considering the entire world

SabbathBlessings said:
That's why if we stick with what Jesus told mankind to live by Mat4:4 He will lead us back on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev22:14 instead of the path He said leads one who teaches and follows this teaching in a ditch Mat15:3-14

That has always been the strategy of the elohim who rule this world. As long as mankind prefers to follow our own will over God's, they, who have already been defeated by Jesus, are still allowed to exist.

SabbathBlessings · Thursday at 2:57 PM

timothyu said:
Considering the entire world

Yes, He invited everyone. Isa56:6

timothyu said:
That has always been the strategy of the elohim who rule this world. As long as mankind prefers to follow our own will over God's, they, who have already been defeated by Jesus, are still allowed to exist.

Its so true. But one day when Jesus comes we will no longer be able to change sides on who we serve Rom6:16 our decision sealed Rev22:11.

Today we have time to change our mind and serve the living God the way He asks, but one day soon, He will have no choice but to be rid of all sin/sinners so He can be with His bride forevermore.

Be well.

timothyu · Thursday at 3:07 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, He invited everyone. Isa56:6

Why not. He created everyone.

timothyu · Thursday at 3:09 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Today we have time to change our mind and serve the living God the way He asks

Our next breath, so why focus on anything but the Kingdom, Jesus' only gospel.

SabbathBlessings · Thursday at 3:19 PM

timothyu said:
Our next breath, so why focus on anything but the Kingdom, Jesus' only gospel.

Agreed. But we need to get there. We don't want to think we are doing God's will only to hear Jesus say this Mat7:21-23

timothyu · Thursday at 3:28 PM

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What else is there of prime importance?

SabbathBlessings · Thursday at 4:25 PM

timothyu said:
Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What else is there of prime importance?

Being ready to meet our Maker. Rev22:14 Not everyone is, because many like their sins John3:19-21 more than their love to Jesus to forsake them. John14:15 1John1:9 Pro28:13. Why the decisions we make like should we fear God and keep His commandments Ecc12:13-14 Rev 14:6-12 or is our fear through man and keep what man says over God. Isa29:13 Mat15:3-14 matters. It always has. Isa 59:2

timothyu · Thursday at 4:29 PM

That is just all part of putting His will ahead of ours.... details. The trees, not the forest.

SabbathBlessings · Thursday at 4:56 PM

timothyu said:
That is just all part of putting His will ahead of ours.... details. The trees, not the forest.

Agreed, but its a bigger issue than people think, otherwise Jesus would not have predicted "many" will say LORD LORD- belivers but thought they were doing God;s will, but really weren't.

Anyway, I appreciate the chat, I'll move on and God bless!

timothyu · Thursday at 5:07 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
thought they were doing God;s will, but really weren't.

They missed the second commandment. Later

Capbook2 · Friday at 2:02 AM

DamianWarS said:
Christians follow Christ but we also need to consider Jesus was a 1st century Jewish man. He was a lot of things that is not required upon us. Jesus practiced complete Jewish customs and participated in Jewish festivals, for examlple he was circumsized. He not only kept Sabbath law but he kept all of the law, he also was not married. If you smuggle in Sabbath law because Jesus kept it, then the entire law comes with it, the very thing Jesus makes obsolete.

Jesus through His lifetime kept the Sabbath day, and nothing in the whole Scriptures that He make the Commandments of God obsolete.
He kept His Father's commandments and remain in His love.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

Capbook2 · Friday at 6:09 AM

DamianWarS said:
What is better? God's finger (Ex 31:18, Lk 11:20),

Yes, the word "finger" in Luke 11:20, bears Strong#G1147, in Greek "δάκτυλος daktylos" defined by Bible Lexicon as - power.
While the "finger" in Ex 31:18, with Strong#H676, in Hebrew "אצבּע 'etsba‛' means - finger.

They bear different meaning, and we cannot treat them as the same.

Luk 11:20 "But ifG1487 I castG1544b out demonsG1140 by the R1fingerG1147 of GodG2316, thenG686 R2the kingdomG932 of GodG2316 has comeG5348 upon you.

G1147
δάκτυλος daktylos
8x: a finger, Mat_23:4; Mrk_7:33; from Hebrew, power, Luk_11:20.

Exo 31:18 When He had finishedH3615 speakingH1696 with him upon MountH2022 SinaiH5514, He gaveH5414 MosesH4872 R1the twoH8147 tabletsH3871 of the testimonyH5715, tabletsH3871 of stoneH68, R2writtenH3789 by the fingerH676 of GodH430.

H676
אצבּע 'etsba‛
BDB Definition:
1) finger, toe

DamianWarS said:
his fire (Ex 3, 19, He 12:29), his voice (Jb 37, Ps 29, Ex 19-20, Jn 12. Re 10) or just a whisper (1Ki10:11-13), his cloud (Ex 13:21, Ex 40:34-38, 1Ki 8:10-11)? What about his hand (Dt 4:34)? Or perhaps he is a rock (Ps 18:2) or maybe a shepherd (Ps 23:1), Father, Husband (Is 54:5), Judge (Ge 18:25) or King (Is 6)? Or could he be a lion (Ho 11:10, Am 3:8), or a lamb (Jn 1:29, 1Pe 1:19, Re 7:17)? Maybe an eagle (Ex 19:4). He is the wind? is he breath (Ge 1:2, Jn 3:8)? Is he light (1Jn 1:5) or the actual sun (Ps 84:11)? Maybe he's a fountain or spring (Je 2:13)?

And maybe the rest of above also differs in meaning, as my point is focused on the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God, marks not only the holiness of God’s Law in general, but the special eminence and permanent obligation to all God's people, in the OT and in the NT.
As what Jesus said, He kept His Father's commandments and abide in His love, as we keep Jesus commandments and abide in His love.

John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

DamianWarS said:
The Bible uses many images and many mechanisms to describe God. His finger does not signify a higher authority than other revealed mechanisms. Context is still the determining factor, not elevating something as universally binding just because it feels good with no other support to back it up. The important context with the 10 is that they were "of the covenant" and not separate from it; they are the covenant documents, and the tablets with God writing it with his finger are more akin to a covenant seal than they are a universal mandate that extends beyond the covenant. They are of God's moral character (as the whole covenant terms are in Ex 20-23), but in a contextualized form pertaining to the covenant (again "of the covenant"). His moral character is implicitly universal, but we need to unpack the covenant language to understand its universal role.

The 10, for example, present moral thresholds. Should we then say any action is fine so long as we don't cross the threshold? It's actually pretty easy to resist murdering my neighbour, resist stealing or lying from him or resisting sleeping with his wife; sure, that may vary among individuals, but there is a whole lot more to morality than simply resisting evil. I may hate my neighbour, even God and still keep the 10. The 10 are uniquely presented to Israel, in 20:1 God opens with "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery...." This isolates the audience, showing the covenant itself, and explicitly the 10, are spoken to and for Israel, establishing a unique covenant context that is not universal.

Yes, God always communicates to His people, Israel before now to those whom have faith in Jesus. (Rev 14:12)
Those who persevere were called "saints" who keep the commandments of God.
And we must keep in mind that the "saints" were spared from the lake of fire as the second death. (Rev 20:

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

DamianWarS said:
The 4th commandment in Ex 20 is grounded in the 7th day of creation ("...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy...") but Deuteronomy grounds itself in Israel's deliverance from slavery saying in v15 "...you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day..." Anchoring the 4th to a unique Israel's deliverance experience not creation. Isn't it Deuteronomy that you keep falling back on with the "added no more" line? well this is Deuteronomy's version of the 10, not a creation-based 4th commandment, but a deliverance-based 4th commandment.

Yes, Exodus 20 as memorial to creation and Deuteronomy 5 as memorial to redemption but both narrates the same event at Mt. Sinai or Mt. Horeb.

Mount Sinai and Mount Horeb are different names for the exact same biblical mountain, the "mountain of God"

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DamianWarS said:
Who told you this? Where does scripture say this?

Christ did, as recorded through out His lifetime, He kept His Father's commandments and abide in His love, as a Christian can't we not follow what Christ kept and also abide in His love? (John 15:10)

DamianWarS said:
I saw the finger of God part, but I missed that part that establishes the 10 as a separate covenant that is universally binding. What if I preferred God's revealed presence in Gen 17, where circumcision is made a sign of an everlasting covenant between God and Abraham for him and his descendants? Can I call this a "special eminence and permanent obligation", too? How are you to tell me differently since your only support is thematic, anecdotal and with no actual scripture to back up your conclusions? I get the finger mention is scripture, it's the rest of what you said that's not.

Circumcision is not one of the Ten, wasn't included in the placement inside the ark where God's mercy seat was.
Does that placement doesn't made special eminence of God's Law?

Exo 25:21 "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you.
Exo 25:22 "There I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel.

DamianWarS · Friday at 1:35 PM

Capbook2 said:
Circumcision is not one of the Ten, wasn't included in the placement inside the ark where God's mercy seat was.
Does that placement doesn't made special eminence of God's Law?

Place in the ark of what? The Ark of covenant. What tablets were placed in there? The tablets of the covenant. What is Sabbath law a sign of? It is a sign of the covenant. These are all covenant boundary markers. Christ kept the covenant terms. All of them, his focus was not to isolate the 10. You're quick to remind me that Christ kept the 10, but he also kept a whole lot more that you seem happy to sweep under a old covenant rug and pretend nobody noticed.

Your response conflates "commandments of God" with the 10 but you lack support to make this jump. Who told you that's it was an explicit reference to the 10? Nowhere in scripture, old or new, makes such a narrow claim.

1 Cor 7:19 tells us keeping God's commandments is what counts. I suppose you cross this out and only see "keeping the 10 are what counts" except through cross-reference study, you will see near mirror verses by Paul leading us to the different direction. Gal 5:6 tells us what counts is faith expressed through love. Gal 6:15 tells us what counts is the new creation. They are all the same expression and the same point and they reference the same thing 7:19 "commandments of God" is the same as 5:6 "faith expressed through love" and is the same as 6:15 "the new creation". they are not a building list of things that count, they are all the same thing.

John also tells us Christ gives us a new commandment in John 13:34-35, saying to love one another as Christ has loved. This is echoed in his epistles. But you would rather ignore these and just point to the 10 with no support to say otherwise.

You're lacking support to make the claims that you're trying to make. "finger of God" is not enough. Placing the tablets of the covenant inside the Ark of the Covenant is not enough. Conflating anything you want to the 10 commandments is not only not enough it's irresponsible. If you pull in the 10, the entire covenant is pulled in with it. Scripture does not bifurcate the covenant as you are trying to do. Moral law of God is not a biblical expression; no scripture isolates the 10 like this. These are critical matters but it doesn't feel like you are taking a critical look at this and would rather keep pointing to the same anacdotal tropes of your contemporaries.

BobRyan · Friday at 8:39 PM

The Liturgist said:
The terminology you use is problematic.

The term “The Catholic Church” in the context of the Nicene Creed only refers exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church and sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Pope in the mind of those Christians. To others such as traditional Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Calvinists and Evangelicals, it can mean many other things.

the post you are responding to quoted actual Roman Catholic teaching not the Nicene documents.

The Liturgist said:
Additionally, the term “Bible Sabbath keepers” being used instead of Sabbatarians has the effect of implying that the Catholic Church however it is not keeping the Sabbath in a manner consistent with Scripture,

The term "Sabbatarian" is not in the Bible and has no claim to being a more accurate label as compared to my phrase "Bible Sabbath keepers"

What is more even the Catholic document "The Faith Explained" agrees with my use distinguishing the Catholic teaching from the unedited Bible statement on the Sabbath.

The point remains

BobRyan · Friday at 8:45 PM

timothyu said:
They both agree the Sabbath day of the Jews, the day of rest, is separate from Sunday.

The Christian church of Jerusalem no doubt continued with their 7th day sabbath, a day of rest while also acknowledging Sunday as the day Jesus was resurrected. The original Sunday tradition of breaking bread (Acts 20:7) was breaking of the fast (breakfast) of the Sabbath of the previous day. This later was changed to denote the Eucharist by gentile churches as they drew away from Jewish tradition and to distinguish themselves, not as Christians but as gentiles.

true, later traditions arising after the first century inserted a number of changes.

But the first century church in its NT text does not describe any weekly Sunday worship services. The only weekly Sunday event described in the NT is the 1 Cor 16 practice of each one laying some funds in store, by himself saving it for a later use.

timothyu said:
Catechism says Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath, meaning the Sabbath of the Jews, so realistically Sunday should not be called the sabbath nor should it be considered a day of rest

True. But the key detail is that the NT provides no example of weekly Sunday day of worship.

This is particularly noticeable in Acts 13.

The Liturgist · Friday at 11:42 PM

BobRyan said:
the post you are responding to quoted actual Roman Catholic teaching not the Nicene documents.

I was not responding to the contents of the post but to the title of the thread. My church is Catholic, but has never been under the control of the Roman Catholic Church, likewise @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian are examples of Evangelical Catholics of the Augsburg Confession (often called Lutherans or Confessional Lutherans; in my view the term Lutheran has become problematic, and their use of Evangelical Catholic is a good replacement, because of the huge difference between their doctrine and that of the ELCA and other liberal Lutheran denominations. We also have Anglican Catholic members, and some Reformed Catholic members (high church liturgical Reformed Christians including Scoto-Catholics, those of Mercersburg theology in the US and also high church members of the Reformed Episcopal Church and historically some Congregational churches, especially the King’s Weigh House in London.

Regarding the documents in the OP however, if you could provide a link to “The Faith Explained” I would appreciate it, because I haven’t heard of it.

BobRyan said:
The term "Sabbatarian" is not in the Bible and has no claim to being a more accurate label as compared to my phrase "Bible Sabbath keepers"

What is more even the Catholic document "The Faith Explained" agrees with my use distinguishing the Catholic teaching from the unedited Bible statement on the Sabbath.

The term “Bible Sabbath Keepers” is also not found in the Bible. Now, the document you quoted would be a Roman Catholic document (I don’t know if “the Faith Explained” has official Catholic standing in the same way as The Catechism of the Catholic Church). Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not reflect the consensus of all Catholic churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Assyrian, Reformed, Methodist/Wesleyan Catholic, Old Catholic, and many others).

Specifically I contend that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East at a minimum must be included with the phrase “Bible Sabbath Keepers” since our worship every seventh-day Sabbath is in accord with New Testament Sabbath adherence, and the fact that we also worship on Sunday to celebrate the Resurrection and the descent of the Holy Spirit, both of which happened on the first day of the week, an activity nowhere prohibited in Scripture, does not negate our Biblical Sabbath keeping.

Conversely, I would not identify as a Sabbatarian, since the word Sabbatarian has the specific connotation of churches which do no usually worship on the First Day.

And any other Christian who identifies as a Bible Sabbath Keeper should be regarded as such as per Colossians 2:16 which precludes us from judging their claim as a special emphasis of the more general prohibition against judging others found in Matthew 7:1-2, Luke 6:37, James 4:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 4:5.

Capbook2 · Saturday at 12:50 AM

DamianWarS said:
Place in the ark of what? The Ark of covenant. What tablets were placed in there? The tablets of the covenant. What is Sabbath law a sign of? It is a sign of the covenant. These are all covenant boundary markers. Christ kept the covenant terms. All of them, his focus was not to isolate the 10. You're quick to remind me that Christ kept the 10, but he also kept a whole lot more that you seem happy to sweep under a old covenant rug and pretend nobody noticed.

I believe this thread is about Sabbath keeping, that's why the focus is about the Sabbath, the fourth in the Ten Commandments.
Nothing was change on God's Laws from the old covenant/agreement to the new covenant, only the placement.

DamianWarS said:
Your response conflates "commandments of God" with the 10 but you lack support to make this jump. Who told you that's it was an explicit reference to the 10? Nowhere in scripture, old or new, makes such a narrow claim.

Paul confirmed to us that the second part of the Ten Commandments was fulfilling the Law.
The Law of "loving of our neighbors" is not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal and not to covet.
This verses proves that the Law and commandment here refer to the Ten Commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

DamianWarS said:
1 Cor 7:19 tells us keeping God's commandments is what counts. I suppose you cross this out and only see "keeping the 10 are what counts" except through cross-reference study, you will see near mirror verses by Paul leading us to the different direction. Gal 5:6 tells us what counts is faith expressed through love.

How do you express "love?" (Rom 13:8-10)
Isn't doing Jesus commandments is expressing our love to Him?

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

DamianWarS said:
Gal 6:15 tells us what counts is the new creation. They are all the same expression and the same point and they reference the same thing 7:19 "commandments of God" is the same as 5:6 "faith expressed through love" and is the same as 6:15 "the new creation". they are not a building list of things that count, they are all the same thing.

Yes, again loving God is observing His Commandments.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

DamianWarS said:
John also tells us Christ gives us a new commandment in John 13:34-35, saying to love one another as Christ has loved. This is echoed in his epistles. But you would rather ignore these and just point to the 10 with no support to say otherwise.

Yes, the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
And again, the "loving our neighbor" as the texts says is not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal and not to covet.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

DamianWarS said:
You're lacking support to make the claims that you're trying to make. "finger of God" is not enough. Placing the tablets of the covenant inside the Ark of the Covenant is not enough. Conflating anything you want to the 10 commandments is not only not enough it's irresponsible. If you pull in the 10, the entire covenant is pulled in with it. Scripture does not bifurcate the covenant as you are trying to do. Moral law of God is not a biblical expression; no scripture isolates the 10 like this. These are critical matters but it doesn't feel like you are taking a critical look at this and would rather keep pointing to the same anacdotal tropes of your contemporaries.

Well, maybe the "saints" that keep the Commandments of God whom will be spared from the lake of fire, the second death also not enough.
If it's not enough, it's our choice whether to be spared or not from the lake of fire, the second death, is our own decision.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

DamianWarS · 2026-06-15T00:39:42-0500

Capbook2 said:
I believe this thread is about Sabbath keeping, that's why the focus is about the Sabbath, the fourth in the Ten Commandments.
Nothing was change on God's Laws from the old covenant/agreement to the new covenant, only the placement.

You're conflating and reducing God's law to the 10. The 10 are an expression of God's law within a covenant framework intended for the post-exodus Israel. If from stone to heart means a verbatim transfer, then what is the point? We already have the 10, and doing some hand waving, saying it's now transferred to the heart doesn't actually do anything if it's the same letter.

of the heart is an internalized signal. It is the purpose and intent of the law, internalized into the heart, so our actions are not just about falling in line with a raw, unfiltered commandment; it is living and dynamic, and it works in all circumstances.

The law says do not murder, perhaps not for all, but for me, that is quite easy to resist. I can, in fact, be confident that I am 6th commandment compliant in all circumstances without an extra mental load on my part. However, if that law is reframed to say love your neighbour as yourself, then that requires active participation and a lot more investment. So what is written upon my heart? is it "do not murder, steal, lie, etc..." or is it "love your neighbour as yourself". Of course, nothing verbatim is written upon our hearts, which would defeat the "of the heart" quality. The Spirit is the author of that which is upon our hearts and our "hearts" are a spiritual signal; The Spirits words are living and dynamic, but they are not static 10. If we see someone beaten and left for dead in the ditch, if we respond to the 10, we may cross the other side and keep on walking, being confident we are compliant; however, if we are responding to the Spirit, we immediately respond and care for the person. The 10 can produce legalistic responses and although can be technically compliant they may counter God's character where the Spirit produces responses always of the heart and in line with the Character of God

The former is a product of compliance with the 10, the latter is responding to the Spirit. If we say the 10 is God's law, then we must look beyond the letter and look to its intent and purpose, but even then, they fall short and are incomplete. Reading the 10 isolated misses the point; if we read it with the complete covenant, you can gain a broader sense of a complete functioning system. For example, I may read Ex 20 and keep the stated commandments, but be detached from those around me and generally apathetic. However, if we read Ex 21, 22, 23 you learn that it is a part of the interconnected system of caring for each other. The 10 cannot function alone, and if they are not part of a wider covenant system, they are detached from living and are more about resisting evil rather than functioning as a part of loving each other.

God's character, his law does not change, but the verbatim letter written upon stone does in fact change to better reflect the character of God while guided by the Spirit, so we may respond in all circumstances without excuse because we can no longer claim ignorance, but have access to the wealth of knowledge that is of the Spirit at all times in all in circumstances no matter how nuanced or complex.

Capbook2 said:
Paul confirmed to us that the second part of the Ten Commandments was fulfilling the Law.
The Law of "loving of our neighbors" is not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal and not to covet.
This verses proves that the Law and commandment here refer to the Ten Commandments.

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Christ confirms this first that all of the law and the prophets hang upon the 2 commandments. Paul is not showing us a new revelation; he is teaching us what Christ taught, not an isolated 10, but an emphasis on love over raw, verbatim letter. Christ is asked which are the greatest, his reply first is the Shema (love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, etc...), which was highly agreeable and already central to Jewish worship. But the Shema alone is lofty and doesn't unpack the practice of how to reach this goal. Christ then quotes the 2nd greatest which is loving your neighbour as yourself, and by doing this, he is coupling these together, showing that the latter is fulfillment of the former. The Shema was always the goal; the question posed, "which is the greatest," is in the context of the Shema and assumes it as the goal of the question. Christ then reframes it to show that loving each other is central to loving God, showing that failing this, nothing else has meaning and it all is rooted in a meaning of loving each other.

Obviously, love does not produce murder, stealing, lying, adultery, or coveting, which is all true, but it also goes well beyond those limits. Our action turns from passive aversion to active participation in all things we do. The first 4 commandments all have monotheistic claims to them, the 4th is harder to see but regardless of which version you take, the exodus version anchors it in a monotheistic creation ("For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore..."), and the deut. version anchors it in a monothestic conqueror/liberator ("You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore..."), both are appealing to a one-God rule. One says look to creation, the other says look to your liberator. Ex 20 itself opens with the context of "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery..." so there is a constant reminder about who God is and that he is the focus of their allegiance without competition all in a Israel covenant framework.

The Shema, however, is more developed and appeals to these monotheistic values on deeper levels, saying "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart...." (Deut 6:4-6) In light of this foundation, there can be no idolatry, or graven images, false gods, or taking God's name in vain, as those are not compatible with a monotheistic belief of one God or an expression as developed as the Shema. The 4th still fits as a fundamental monothestic claim, but if our gaze is focused only God, then everything else aligns, similar to if we love each other as ourselves, we are not going to murder, steal, lie, etc... if we love God, we are not going to have other idols, etc... That alignment was through the written letter of the covenant, and in the new covenant, that alignment is through walking in the Spirit. Does walking in the Spirit produce the 4th commandment alignment? Not strictly in terms of keeping a day, it aligns with its true purpose and focus, which points to Christ. That's not to say that keeping the letter of the 4th is not consistent with these values; it certainly is, the day testifies to Christ, so we need to ensure that its central value is focused on pointing to Christ over keeping a day. This means "day" can be flexible; it is not the day that is holy, but it is Christ's completed work, and when we are through Christ, we become the thing that is holy. We can't

Capbook2 said:
How do you express "love?" (Rom 13:8-10)
Isn't doing Jesus commandments is expressing our love to Him?

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

You can't quote John 14 if you don't quote John 13 first. Jn 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Capbook2 said:
Yes, again loving God is observing His Commandments.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

Love is central to Johannine epistles. in 1 Jn 2:7, John says "I am writing you no new commandment..." This is a call back to John 13:34-35, John doesn't give a new commandment and are not in isolation, he reminds us who gave us the new commandments and his words are rooted in it. You see "commandments," you see "law" and cross them out and say this means the 10 commandments. I see context, I read the surrounding text and point to an in-context explanation. Isolating the 10 the way you are doing is not something the text cannot support, and you are introducing foreign goals to the text.

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
And again, the "loving our neighbor" as the texts says is not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal and not to covet.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Love your neighbour as yourself goes beyond the 10. It is about active participation with those around us vs a detached avoidance of evil. Those two concepts alone show the 10 isolated are lacking and at the very least need a greater context for fulfillment. "love your neighbour as yourself" gives it this context, but then you need to ask why do you need the 10 at all if the "love your neighbour as yourself" not only accomplishes the goal but goes beyond it.

Capbook2 said:
Well, maybe the "saints" that keep the Commandments of God whom will be spared from the lake of fire, the second death also not enough.
If it's not enough, it's our choice whether to be spared or not from the lake of fire, the second death, is our own decision.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Anyone can throw these statements around and passively accuse the other of their salvation, but they have no place in these forms. It is disappointing, and might I add, forces me to question your character when you've digressed to these levels. Please rise higher.

Capbook2 · 2026-06-15T02:58:15-0500

DamianWarS said:
You're conflating and reducing God's law to the 10. The 10 are an expression of God's law within a covenant framework intended for the post-exodus Israel. If from stone to heart means a verbatim transfer, then what is the point? We already have the 10, and doing some hand waving, saying it's now transferred to the heart doesn't actually do anything if it's the same letter.

of the heart is an internalized signal. It is the purpose and intent of the law, internalized into the heart, so our actions are not just about falling in line with a raw, unfiltered commandment; it is living and dynamic, and it works in all circumstances.

The law says do not murder, perhaps not for all, but for me, that is quite easy to resist. I can, in fact, be confident that I am 6th commandment compliant in all circumstances without an extra mental load on my part. However, if that law is reframed to say love your neighbour as yourself, then that requires active participation and a lot more investment. So what is written upon my heart? is it "do not murder, steal, lie, etc..." or is it "love your neighbour as yourself". Of course, nothing verbatim is written upon our hearts, which would defeat the "of the heart" quality. The Spirit is the author of that which is upon our hearts and our "hearts" are a spiritual signal; The Spirits words are living and dynamic, but they are not static 10. If we see someone beaten and left for dead in the ditch, if we respond to the 10, we may cross the other side and keep on walking, being confident we are compliant; however, if we are responding to the Spirit, we immediately respond and care for the person. The 10 can produce legalistic responses and although can be technically compliant they may counter God's character where the Spirit produces responses always of the heart and in line with the Character of God

My understanding of the text, the second half of the Ten was summed up in the saying "you shall love thy neighbors as thy selves."

The word "summed' bear Strong#G346, in Greek "ἀνακεφαλαίομαι anakephalaiomai" defined by Bible Lexicons as means - to bring together several things under one, reduce under one head, to condense into a summary, etc.

By the definition it means, the second half of the Ten Commandments reduced to one as " love your neighbors as yourselves."

Rom 13:9 For thisG3588, "R1YOU SHALL NOT COMMITG3431 ADULTERYG3431, YOU SHALL NOT MURDERG5407, YOU SHALL NOT STEALG2813, YOU SHALL NOT COVETG1937," and ifG1487 there is anyG5100 otherG2087 commandmentG1785, it is summedG346 up in thisG3778 sayingG3056, "R2YOU SHALL LOVEG25 YOUR NEIGHBORG4139 AS YOURSELFG4572."

G346 (Thayer Lexicon)
ἀνακεφαλαίομαι anakephalaiomai
1) to sum up (again), to repeat summarily, to condense into a summary

G346 (Mounce Lexicon)
ἀνακεφαλαιόω anakephalaioō
2x: to bring together several things under one, reduce under one head; to comprise, Rom_13:9; Eph_1:10.

DamianWarS said:
The former is a product of compliance with the 10, the latter is responding to the Spirit. If we say the 10 is God's law, then we must look beyond the letter and look to its intent and purpose, but even then, they fall short and are incomplete. Reading the 10 isolated misses the point; if we read it with the complete covenant, you can gain a broader sense of a complete functioning system. For example, I may read Ex 20 and keep the stated commandments, but be detached from those around me and generally apathetic. However, if we read Ex 21, 22, 23 you learn that it is a part of the interconnected system of caring for each other. The 10 cannot function alone, and if they are not part of a wider covenant system, they are detached from living and are more about resisting evil rather than functioning as a part of loving each other.

I think my response above address this point.
But in addition, as you've said, the Ten written in our heart means "internalized in our heart."
The word "write" in Hebrews 8:10 with Strong#G1924, in Greek "ἐπιγράφω epigraphō" defined by Bible Lexicons as means - to write upon, inscribe, to imprint, etc.

Yes, internalized in our heart, by definition inscribe, imprint in our heart, by the ministry of the Spirit.
Compare to statutes and ordinances in Ezekiel 36:26,27 which states God will put His Spirit in us to cause us to walk in His statutes and ordinances but nothing records of it being written or inscribed in our heart.

Heb 8:10 ForG3754 thisG3778 is theG3588 covenantG1242 thatG3739 I will makeG1303 with theG3588 houseG3624 of IsraelG2474 afterG3326 thoseG1565 days,G2250 saithG3004 the Lord;G2962 I will putG1325 myG3450 lawsG3551 intoG1519 theirG846 mind,G1271 andG2532 writeG1924 themG846 inG1909 theirG846 hearts:G2588 andG2532 I will beG2071 to themG846 a(G1519) God,G2316 andG2532 theyG846 shall beG2071 to meG3427 a(G1519) people:G2992

G1924 (Mounce)
ἐπιγράφω epigraphō
5x: pluperfect pass., ἐπεγεγράμμην, to imprint a mark on; to inscribe, engrave, write on, Mrk_15:26; Act_17:23; Rev_21:12; met. to imprint, impress deeply on, Heb_8:10; Heb_10:16.

G1924 (Thayer Lexicon)
ἐπιγράφω epigraphō
1) to write upon, inscribe
2) metaphorically to write upon the mind

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

DamianWarS said:
God's character, his law does not change, but the verbatim letter written upon stone does in fact change to better reflect the character of God while guided by the Spirit, so we may respond in all circumstances without excuse because we can no longer claim ignorance, but have access to the wealth of knowledge that is of the Spirit at all times in all in circumstances no matter how nuanced or complex.

Do that mean that the "thou shall not kill" formerly the letter written on stone, if changed, the Spirit will led us to do it?

DamianWarS said:
Christ confirms this first that all of the law and the prophets hang upon the 2 commandments. Paul is not showing us a new revelation; he is teaching us what Christ taught, not an isolated 10, but an emphasis on love over raw, verbatim letter. Christ is asked which are the greatest, his reply first is the Shema (love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, etc...), which was highly agreeable and already central to Jewish worship. But the Shema alone is lofty and doesn't unpack the practice of how to reach this goal. Christ then quotes the 2nd greatest which is loving your neighbour as yourself, and by doing this, he is coupling these together, showing that the latter is fulfillment of the former. The Shema was always the goal; the question posed, "which is the greatest," is in the context of the Shema and assumes it as the goal of the question. Christ then reframes it to show that loving each other is central to loving God, showing that failing this, nothing else has meaning and it all is rooted in a meaning of loving each other.

Again, by the definition of the word "summed" in the above response means the second half of the Ten Commandments reduced under one as "you shall love your neighbors as yourself."

As by "loving our neighbors as ourselves" means we obey and love God by doing so, as the whole Law is fulfilled by that statement.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

DamianWarS said:
Obviously, love does not produce murder, stealing, lying, adultery, or coveting, which is all true, but it also goes well beyond those limits. Our action turns from passive aversion to active participation in all things we do. The first 4 commandments all have monotheistic claims to them, the 4th is harder to see but regardless of which version you take, the exodus version anchors it in a monotheistic creation ("For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore..."), and the deut. version anchors it in a monothestic conqueror/liberator ("You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore..."), both are appealing to a one-God rule. One says look to creation, the other says look to your liberator. Ex 20 itself opens with the context of "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery..." so there is a constant reminder about who God is and that he is the focus of their allegiance without competition all in a Israel covenant framework.

Yes, Exodus 20 as in memorial to creation and Deuteronomy 5 as in memorial to redemption.
As the Father and Jesus are our Redeemer, commanded His people to observe the Sabbath day. (Deut 5:15, Exo 19:5, Titus 2:13,14, Heb 4:9)

Deu 5:15 'You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Exo 19:5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;

DamianWarS said:
The Shema, however, is more developed and appeals to these monotheistic values on deeper levels, saying "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart...." (Deut 6:4-6) In light of this foundation, there can be no idolatry, or graven images, false gods, or taking God's name in vain, as those are not compatible with a monotheistic belief of one God or an expression as developed as the Shema. The 4th still fits as a fundamental monothestic claim, but if our gaze is focused only God, then everything else aligns, similar to if we love each other as ourselves, we are not going to murder, steal, lie, etc... if we love God, we are not going to have other idols, etc... That alignment was through the written letter of the covenant, and in the new covenant, that alignment is through walking in the Spirit. Does walking in the Spirit produce the 4th commandment alignment? Not strictly in terms of keeping a day, it aligns with its true purpose and focus, which points to Christ. That's not to say that keeping the letter of the 4th is not consistent with these values; it certainly is, the day testifies to Christ, so we need to ensure that its central value is focused on pointing to Christ over keeping a day. This means "day" can be flexible; it is not the day that is holy, but it is Christ's completed work, and when we are through Christ, we become the thing that is holy. We can't

You state the "day" can be flexible, do that mean what God said was to "remember a Sabbath day or remember the Sabbath day?" (Ex 20:8)

May we know what this verses speaks about as all mankind will worship God from one Sabbath to another in the new heaven and new earth? (Isa 66:23)
As the "saints" who persevered in keeping the commandments of God will be spared from the lake of fire, the second death. (Rev 14:12, Rev 20:9,10,14)

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

DamianWarS said:
You can't quote John 14 if you don't quote John 13 first. Jn 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yes, loving one another and loving our neighbors means we obey and loved Jesus and the Father by doing so.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

DamianWarS said:
Love is central to Johannine epistles. in 1 Jn 2:7, John says "I am writing you no new commandment..." This is a call back to John 13:34-35, John doesn't give a new commandment and are not in isolation, he reminds us who gave us the new commandments and his words are rooted in it. You see "commandments," you see "law" and cross them out and say this means the 10 commandments. I see context, I read the surrounding text and point to an in-context explanation. Isolating the 10 the way you are doing is not something the text cannot support, and you are introducing foreign goals to the text.

Love your neighbour as yourself goes beyond the 10. It is about active participation with those around us vs a detached avoidance of evil. Those two concepts alone show the 10 isolated are lacking and at the very least need a greater context for fulfillment. "love your neighbour as yourself" gives it this context, but then you need to ask why do you need the 10 at all if the "love your neighbour as yourself" not only accomplishes the goal but goes beyond it.

Anyone can throw these statements around and passively accuse the other of their salvation, but they have no place in these forms. It is disappointing, and might I add, forces me to question your character when you've digressed to these levels. Please rise higher.

Yes, again, by "loving our neighbors as ourselves" is in compliance to the Ten Commandments, if not this text should have not exist.
Again, by "loving our neighbors, we obey and loved God by doing it.
If interpreted to refer to the 613 Laws, the Sabbath still one of it, or else it would be 612.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

In traditional Jewish tradition, the Torah contains 613 commandments (the Mitzvot), which include the Sabbath laws. These are divided into 248 positive commandments (duties) and 365 negative commandments (prohibitions). Google Search

timothyu · 2026-06-15T09:17:13-0500

DamianWarS said:
It is the purpose and intent of the law, internalized into the heart, so our actions are not just about falling in line with a raw, unfiltered commandment; it is living and dynamic, and it works in all circumstances.

There is no difference between the two as both address the fact that man's ways are contrary to the ways of the Kingdom. Those of the Kingdom understand that we have it backwards (focusing on self rather than acting in servitude to God and each other) not only understaffing the reason for the ten commandments, but also understanding that we have it backwards, thus written in our hearts thanks to Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom. Had the religion focused more on the Kingdom of God rather than on us and our salvation, perhaps this would not be such an issue, but then again hey, we are backwards thinkers, thinking self is more important than the will of God.

Do Bible Sabbath keepers and the Catholic Church Agree on Certain points?

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