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Adventist view on the Sabbath as the final test of loyalty

Blueprints

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My point was that although modificare is where we get the English word modify, the word modify in English has a different meaning than modificare in Latin, so to translate it as modify is incorrect. ..
I just showed, from Etyonline, a Latin Roman translator (into English, did you think I made up the translation?) and Google translate, and your own response, the very definition of the English word "modify", and it means the same thing in Latin, "modificare" - Adventist view on the Sabbath as the final test of loyalty

Were you not reading what I evidenced? Again, just one of those 4 sources in evidence:

"... modify(v.) late 14c., modifien, "alter, amend, adjust, change the properties, form, or function of;" also "set limits, keep within the bounds of reason; choose a middle course," from Old French modifier (14c.), from Latin modificare "to limit, measure off, restrain," from modus "measure, manner" (from PIE root *med- "take appropriate measures") + combining form of facere "to make" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Related: Modified; modifying. ..." - Modify - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

So, again, it is not a "mistranslation" as you incorrectly stated (twice, doubling down on willful ignorance). It is that you are simply refusing to acknowledge the full meaning in English language and simply choose to ignore the actual relation of the words.
 
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Blueprints

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I think your zeal for anti-Catholicism had led to your error in characterization of my comment. You are misapplying the trial system, where for example, a bishop may be judged on a specific offense, to the the Christian understanding of the nature of man. The pope is a man, a sinner, who by nature is imperfect.
No, I am not misapplying the Canon Law, nor am I in error regarding what it states (plainly). As an ex-Roman Catholic, I have actually read Canon Law, and the Lawyers commentaries on it, among many other things. My "zeal" is actually for scripture and truth, which you see as "anti-Catholicism", because in that sense, those things are contrary to catholicism, but that is only because catholicism is contrary to those things. That cannot be helped. It is catholicism's fault. I agree with your last statement, "The pope is a man, a sinner, who by nature is imperfect.", but that is not the view presented by catholicism's inner doctrines as shown in just two references. There are many more such references. For instance, see the continuous use of the phrase "the Lord God the pope" - Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and as we all know, "God" is not a sinner and cannot "err".
 
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Valletta

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No, I am not misapplying the Canon Law, nor am I in error regarding what it states (plainly). As an ex-Roman Catholic, I have actually read Canon Law, and the Lawyers commentaries on it, among many other things. My "zeal" is actually for scripture and truth, which you see as "anti-Catholicism", because in that sense, those things are contrary to catholicism, but that is only because catholicism is contrary to those things. That cannot be helped. It is catholicism's fault. I agree with your last statement, "The pope is a man, a sinner, who by nature is imperfect.", but that is not the view presented by catholicism's inner doctrines as shown in just two references. There are many more such references. For instance, see the continuous use of the phrase "the Lord God the pope" - Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and as we all know, "God" is not a sinner and cannot "err".
Of course you are misapplying the Canon law. Because the pope is not subject to the particular trial system in Canon law you cite it means nothing more or less than what it says--the pope is not subject to it. The rest you provided comes from your own thoughts or what people have told you. Unfortunately you must have missed or misunderstood the Catholic teaching about popes being sinners. That's why popes avail themselves of the graces of the sacrament of reconciliation and, like all priests, is one reason to spend so many hours in prayer. Pope John Paul II went to confession every day. Neither Matthew 16:18 (see below) or anything else in the Bible says that Peter or his successors are not sinners. In fact Peter denied our Lord three times.

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." DR
 
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The Liturgist

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A catholic is a catholic. Roman or not.

Well yes, in the Nicene Creed we confess belief in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, although there are differences in opinion on what that means - most Roman Catholics regard it as referring to those churches in communion with the Pope of Rome, Lutherans connect Catholicism with correct worship (orthodoxologia), Eastern Orthodox and most Oriental Orthodox regard orthodoxy as requiring a continuity of correct worship and apostolic succession and a continuity of Eucharistic communion, Anglicans, Assyrians, Old Catholics and some Oriental Orthodox and other Protestants and the more ecumenically minded Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox tend to favor the “branch ecclesiology,” and among Congregationalists, Baptists and the Stone/Campbell movement we have the local church ecclesiology, whereas Evangelicals and other low church Protestants lean towards an invisible church ecclesiology. However, Catholicism remains a vital part of the creed, since belief in the unity and centrality of the Church as the Body of Christ is a part of normative Christian faith.

However it is not the case that all Catholics subscribe to Roman Catholic theology.

The internal distinctions 'you' (the peoples) make among yourselves is simply infighting over definitions, names, words, usages and personages. I can show (in another place, as it is not the purpose of this OP or thread) that so called 'Orthodoxy' and Roman Catholicism share a great deal of "theology" and "praxy" (even as you said, "although I agree with some of it"),

The Eastern Orthodox share as much in common with the Roman Catholics as we have in common with the Lutherans and Anglicans and other liturgical Protestants. We have much more in common with the Assyrian Church of the East, and even more in common with the Oriental Orthodox, with whom we are close to reunification. But it is the case that most traditional churches are working towards ecumenical reconciliation rather than further division.

The issue is that unfortunately, the differences are much greater than “infighting over names, words, usages and personages,” neither can it be said to be infighting, since the Roman Catholics are external to the Eastern Orthodox.


and since the Jesuit counter-reformation, and the infiltration and destruction of the 'old 'orthodoxical' orders' by them (Russian Revolution, Greek revolutionary wars and various others, &c.) they are closer than the 'lay' will admit, but the upper echelon knows the facts.

I really hope you are not actually suggesting that the Eastern Orthodox are controlled by Jesuit Secret Masters who were also responsible for the Russian Revolution, because not only would that be demonstrably false, but it would also be extremely offensive particularly since as of today (Sunday June 14th on the Gregorian calendar) we are commemorating the memory of the New Martyrs of Russia who were killed under Communism.

The Orthodox Church was extremely severely persecuted by Communists but survived. In addition, Russian Old Orthodox, who did not accept the Nikonian liturgical reforms of 1666, also survive, both as independent churches such as the Pomorsky, and as canonical churches such as the Lipovans in Romania and the Edinovertsy.

The Greek revolution of 1821 was in no respect a Roman Catholic takeover of Eastern Orthodoxy but rather was the liberation of much of Greece from Turkocratia (unfortunately many parts of Greece such as Crete, Mount Athos, Thessalonica and so on) would have to wait until later in the 19th century.

Additionally it is worth noting that many Orthodox lands were not liberated, for example, the Churches of the Antiochians, Alexandrian Greeks, Phanariot Greeks and Hagiopolitan Orthodox still iive under non Christian regimes (of which only that in Egypt is friendly, following the downfall of the problematic Assad regime in Syria, which has caused a huge increase in persecution of Christians in Syria under the new government). Likewise the Syriac Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox (with the Copts and Alexandrian Greeks and the Church of Sinai benefitting from a friendly regime but one which has proven itself catastrophically incapable of ensuring their safety, with frequent terrorist attacks on Coptic churches; the Church of Sinai, which consists mainly of St. Catharine’s monastery, survives through divine protection, not unlike the monastery of St. Matthew in the hills above Mosul or the monasteries of Tur Abdin in Turkey.

Likewise the Armenians and Ethiopians, despite having their own countries, have not been spared Islamic violence, most recently with the brutal conquest and genocide of Ngorno-Karabakh by Azerbaijan.

If you have any concerns about Orthodox theology being under the control of the Roman Catholic Church I have no doubt my fellow Orthodox friends such as @prodromos @jas3 @FenderTL5 @HTacianas can attest that it is not under Roman Catholic control (and never has been); likewise with regards to Lutheran theology, my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian can confirm the same. And with regards to Anglicans, my friend @Jipsah would be amused, bemused and perhaps cmused at the thought of his church being secretly under the control of Jesuits, considering the dim view he and I take towards suggestions of extra terrestrials being responsible for UFO sightings.

Indeed the Eastern Orthodox have more in common with Anglicans, conservative Old Catholics and Lutherans than with Roman Catholics, particularly continuing Anglo Catholics and confessional Lutherans (Evangelical Catholics) since the rejection of the idea of the development of doctrine and in the case of Anglicans and conservative Old Catholics we share the idea of the church as a communion of bishops who are equal in authority, with Archbishops, Metropolitans or Patriarchs merely being the primus inter pares (first among equals) whose do not have the ability to wield episcopal authority in the dioceses of other bishops, but whose function is rather to preside over the ecclesiastical province or Holy Synod of their church. Of course there are some episcopal-oriented Lutherans who likewise share this view.

Now, with regards to the Sabbath, the amusing thing in all of this is that most Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East worship on the Sabbath, since the majority of those who attend the Divine Liturgy have attended Vespers or All Night Vigils the night before (particularly in Coptic and Slavonic churches), and all Roman Catholic clergy edcdcare required to celebrate the mass on every Sabbath, in addition to the Liturgy of the Hours (which usually results in a total of three daily worship services per priest - morning prayer, a mass, and evening prayer), even those who are retired, so that’s over 1.2 million worship services per Saturday. A large number of Anglicans and Lutherans also worship on the seventh day. So even though this worship is not actually required (nothing in Scripture actually declares it to be a final test of loyalty), the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Roman Catholics and other traditional services do Sunday services than the SDA, especially when we consider Eucharistic liturgy, since Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Assyrians and most Oriental Orthodox (and also the Amborsian Rite Catholcs of Milan, who number around over a million) celebrate the Eucharist every Sabbath throughout the year.

But apparently this is inadequate since we also worship on the First Day in honor of the resurrection, despite there being no Scriptural prohibition of the same…
 
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JSRG

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I just showed, from Etyonline,

You repost this portion, so we'll discuss it when we get there.

a Latin Roman translator (into English, did you think I made up the translation?) and Google translate,

Google translate, while certainly much better than it used to be, still goofs stuff up, particularly for less commonly spoken languages (Spanish-English is more trustworthy than Latin-English, for example). It's decent enough for getting a general feeling of something, but it's not dependable enough that one can simply appeal to it as evidence of a particular translation being right. As for the "Latin Roman translator", you don't give any indication as to who this was (and was it someone neutral, or someone who was trying to use it for a polemical purpose, which makes their translation more suspect?)

and your own response, the very definition of the English word "modify", and it means the same thing in Latin, "modificare" - Adventist view on the Sabbath as the final test of loyalty

My response noted that just because an English word comes from a Latin word, does not mean the Latin word has the same meaning as that word in modern English, and gave several examples.

Were you not reading what I evidenced? Again, just one of those 4 sources in evidence:

"... modify(v.) late 14c., modifien, "alter, amend, adjust, change the properties, form, or function of;" also "set limits, keep within the bounds of reason; choose a middle course," from Old French modifier (14c.), from Latin modificare "to limit, measure off, restrain," from modus "measure, manner" (from PIE root *med- "take appropriate measures") + combining form of facere "to make" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Related: Modified; modifying. ..." - Modify - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

When you originally posted this, I interpreted this--and your other assertions--as you saying that "modify" was a proper translation of modificare on the grounds that the word modify came from modificare. For the reasons given already, the problem here is that the standard English meaning of "modify" is to change, which is not the standard meaning of the Latin modificare. Hence my explanation for why I didn't think it aided you. A word in English coming from Latin does not mean the English meaning is the same as the original Latin meaning, so one can't simply take a Latin word and automatically translate into its new English version; otherwise one would translate "villanus" (villager in Latin) into "villain" in English because the latter comes from the former, even if the meaning is rather different.

There is another possible interpretation of your remarks, which is that you are focusing on the things listed after "also" ("set limits, keep within the bounds of reason; choose a middle course") and claiming those definitions (which are significantly less commonly used than the meaning of alter for modify) fit with the Latin meaning of modificare, making it a valid translation. If that was what you were trying to advance--and the underlining/bolding of "also" and the meanings that follow do indicate that--then I think I misunderstood you. However, a big reason for that me taking the interpretation I did is that if this was your argument, then it doesn't make much sense, hence why I went with the interpretation I did.

If, however, this was your argument--that this lesser-used meaning in English fits better with the Latin meaning, making it an accurate translation to render modificare as modify--then we run into the problems that made me think this wasn't your argument. In the first place, the standard modern English meaning of modify is, as Etyonline indicates, to alter/amend/adjust/etc. The "also" (set limits/keep within the bounds of reason/choose a middle course) is less common, especially today, and some English dictionaries don't even list that as a dictionary due to its disuse. Therefore, if the claim is that the translation as "modify" was to use it in that sense rather than alter, then it would not be a mistranslation exactly, but would be a misleading translation, for a person would typically see "modify" and think "alter", given that being the far more common usage of the word.

But beyond that, the larger problem is how you introduced it. You preceded the quote with the statement of (in response to a comment by The Liturgist of changing laws) ""the Papacy", along with its Romanist adherents, itself, so claims this prerogative in numerous ways / actions. As for instance:". Since we were talking about change--not, as the word modificare in Latin normally means, to limit or control/regulate--again someone would look at the word "modify" and think we were using the primary English definition, not the secondary one. And if the argument is that the translation as modify is permissible because are using the secondary meaning for modify in English, then it means it doesn't appear to have relevance to your claim, because that's a different definition from the alter, which would be required for it to have relevance. This was why I didn't think that was your explanation, for it did not fit with your original presentation.

So it seems to me that if we were to use the primary sense of modify in English, it is a mistranslation... and if we were to use the less common secondary sense, then while it would not be a mistranslation exactly, it would be misleading, and more importantly would not ultimately have had relevance to your claim.
 
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Blueprints

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So it seems to me
And this is where you keep failing. You keep referring to 'you', as if you were the one to define the words used. Please, accept reality, and come out of yourself, and accept the definition that the world and word origins define the word as.
 
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The Liturgist

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Nope. I cited the sources.

The Roman Catholic Church has never declared the Pope to be sinless. Now we Orthodox disagree with them both on Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility (and Papal Infallibility was specifically adopted at Vatican I in the 19th century, and caused an immediate schism with the Archdiocese of Utrecht and some other Catholics who became known as the Old Catholics). But if they were to declare the Pope to be sinless on an ex officio basis we would not even both with ecumenical dialogue with them; the restoration in relations since Vatican II would not have occurred and we would have resorted to legal means to reclaim those relics which the Roman Church has returned voluntarily, such as those of the Three Holy Hierarchs (the Orthodox term for St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian and St. John Chrysostom, three bishops whose defense of the Nicene Faith was extremely important in the fourth and early fifth century, indeed St. Gregory the Theologian opened the Council of Constantinople, and wrote a panygeric for St. Basil, who was his best friend, and St. Athanasius, who reposed shortly after St. Basil, the hero of Nicaea, who ensured that Arius was anathematized and the new Creed adopted and who then endured decades of vicious persecution by the anti-Trinitarian successors of St. Constantine until Julian the Apostate released him from exile hoping his return to Alexandria would divide the Christians (in fact, it united them, since the Arian bishops intruding on the see of St. Athanasius were greatly resented by the locals on the basis of their conduct). St. Athanasius also defined the 27 book New Testament canon we all rely on.
 
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