Doubting My Dispensationalism.

Jan001 said:

Perhaps the following can help you to decide:

How many second comings of Jesus Christ can there be?

Just one second coming; Jesus returns to earth only once more for the resurrection of the dead and the last judgment.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:8

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

How many first resurrections can there be? Just one. Jesus Christ was the first person to rise from the dead with an incorruptible body. Matthew 27:51-53

When Jesus rose from the dead, the spirits of the righteous people residing in Hades rose out of there. Jesus later accompanied them to heaven. These spirits will reign with him there until the resurrection of their bodies from the dead at Jesus' second coming. Revelation 20:4-6

How many seventh (last) trumpets can there be? Only one last trumpet. This trumpet will announce the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead at the end of time. 1 Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 11:15-18

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Valid observations, saint!
Also, how many "last days" will there be?
John 6:39: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
John 6:40: "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:54: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Even Mary knew this:
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jeff Carr said:

The New Testament mentions Christ coming FOR us and coming WITH us. I believe that Christ will come FOR His Church prior to the Great Tribulation. Jn 14:3, 1 Thes 1:10, 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-52.

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If we die before Jesus' second coming, we will go the place that he has already prepared for us. Hebrews 9:27, John 14:1-3, Acts 1:25

The great tribulation that Jesus prophesied in Matthew, Mark, and Luke occurred in the first century AD. Matthew 23:36, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:49-51, Matthew 10:23 The two witnesses were the Law and the prophets, represented by Moses and Elijah. Matthew 17:3, Luke 16:28-31

In the late 60s AD, Jesus Christ came in judgment against the unbelieving Jews because they rejected him as their Messiah. Jesus Christ, from his throne in heaven, used his power to enable the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews there.


I think there will be another fulfillment near the end of time, and the two prophesied witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, will return to earth to preach to the unbelieving Jews who will believe that the antichrist is their long-awaited Messiah. The antichrist will be from the tribe of Dan.

Jeff Carr said:

Christ will come WITH His Church at the end of the Great Tribulation. Mt 24:29-31, 2 Thes 1:710, Jude 14.

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When Jesus Christ comes to earth at the end of time, all the saints in heaven will accompany him. The Christians still on earth will rise up to meet them, and then everyone will accompany Jesus to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for the last judgment. Joel 3:12-14

Jeff Carr said:

I also believe that Christ's second coming is not a salvation issue, so I don't get into major arguments about it with others.

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It is a judgment issue.

Jeff Carr said:

As I wrote in my post, it is a non-salvation issue, I will not lose fellowship by arguing.

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Okay, it isn't my thread and your interlocutor isn't me. Still .... From a Catholic perspective, you’re right that it’s a non‑salvation issue, but that doesn’t make it unimportant; the Church has always taught that while only core doctrines are essential for salvation, secondary questions still shape how we live out the faith, interpret Scripture, and maintain unity within the Body of Christ. Arguing these points in charity is part of the Church’s intellectual tradition, yet the virtue of fellowship is preserved not just by avoiding division but by engaging one another with humility and a desire for truth.So, I wonder where the thought context of dispensationalism lands on issues that may be salvation issues?

Jeff Carr said:

Salvation issues and dispensationalism?

Well, the first one that comes to mind is the doctrine of eternal security or as it is popularly known as, 'once saved, always saved.'
This is held by dispensationalists, and this doctrine has led thousands into Hell. The idea that one decision of a moment forever secures me a place in Heaven, no matter how I live or what I do, is from the Pit!
The Bible clearly shows that the salvation that is entered into by faith is maintained by continued faith and faithfulness. Saving faith is not the act of a moment, but an attitude of a life. Anyone who reads the 'warning passages' in the book of Hebrews with an opened mind, can see that salvation can be lost through unbelief and disobedience.

Another belief of dispensationalist is a warped view of 'imputed righteousness'. It is believed that when one is regenerated and justified, they receive Christ's righteousness. By this they mean, the merit and virtue of Christ's holiness is credited to the believer so that God does not see one's sinfulness and unholy behavior but sees Christ's holiness and obedience.
This has proved to be the greatest hindrance to personal holiness and righteous behavior. After all,' it doesn't matter how I live because God sees me in Jesus.' This God with 'rose tinted glasses' idea is so prevalent today. The writer to the Hebrews warns,' pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord'. Heb 12:14.

The third idea that is a salvation issue is the dispensationalist's view of law and grace.
To the dispensationalist, the Christian is 'not under the Law'. By this they include, the civil, the ceremonial and the moral Law of God.
They happily quote Paul saying, 'we are not under law but grace'. Ask them what they think Paul meant and you will be told that he meant one does not have to keep the 10 commandments. Antinomianism! So, grace now becomes an excuse to live carelessly in a most unchristian like manner.

So, there you have 3 salvation issues that relate to dispensationalism.

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There is real common ground between Catholic teaching and your concerns, especially regarding eternal security. The Church agrees that Scripture does not teach “once saved, always saved”, and that a believer can fall away through unbelief or serious sin (Heb 6:4–6; 2 Pet 2:20–22; Sir 5:5–7). At the same time, Catholics avoid saying salvation is “maintained” by human effort; rather, we persevere only by cooperating with God’s grace (Phil 2:12–13). So while Catholics share your concern about cheap grace, we also emphasise that salvation remains God’s work from beginning to end.

On imputed righteousness, Catholics agree that holiness is essential (Heb 12:14; Jas 2:17). But we would not say that all Protestants who hold imputed righteousness believe God ignores sin or that holiness is optional. Catholic teaching differs by affirming infused righteousness - God actually transforms the believer (Rom 5:5) - yet we still acknowledge that Christ’s righteousness is truly given to us as a gift (2 Cor 5:21). Your concern about moral laxity is valid, but it does not necessarily follow from every Protestant view.

Regarding law and grace, Catholics agree that Christians are not under the Mosaic Law as a covenant (Rom 6:14), but we also affirm that the moral law - summarised in the Ten Commandments - remains binding and fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17–19; Rom 3:31). Antinomianism is rejected outright. Grace does not abolish the moral life; it empowers it (Rom 8:4). Where we differ slightly is that Catholics do not see dispensationalism as inherently leading to moral collapse, even if some interpretations can drift that way.

In short, Catholics share your desire for a faith that produces holiness, obedience, and perseverance, while differing on how some doctrines are understood and applied.

Jeff Carr said:

As I wrote in my post, it is a non-salvation issue, I will not lose fellowship by arguing.

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I think it depends on the people discussing the topic. I don't get angry if people do not agree with me. I do learn from other people's ideas.

I didn't know the beliefs that most dispensationalists hold in common concerning salvation. Thank you for explaining them.

Jeff Carr said:

Salvation issues and dispensationalism?

Well, the first one that comes to mind is the doctrine of eternal security or as it is popularly known as, 'once saved, always saved.'
This is held by dispensationalists, and this doctrine has led thousands into Hell. The idea that one decision of a moment forever secures me a place in Heaven, no matter how I live or what I do, is from the Pit!

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Just shows, doesn't it, that it makes more sense that salvation be God's decision than ours! He will not lose even one of those upon whom HE chose to show mercy.

Jeff Carr said:

The Bible clearly shows that the salvation that is entered into by faith is maintained by continued faith and faithfulness. Saving faith is not the act of a moment, but an attitude of a life. Anyone who reads the 'warning passages' in the book of Hebrews with an opened mind, can see that salvation can be lost through unbelief and disobedience.

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If the faith is generated by God within a person, and not by that person, it is continuing and cannot be altogether lost. It is also valid, regardless of the 'size' of it. A person can grow it, stifle it, but not lose it, because it is only his by God doing it within him. He agrees with it, not causes it, no matter how involved in it he feels.

Jeff Carr said:

Another belief of dispensationalist is a warped view of 'imputed righteousness'. It is believed that when one is regenerated and justified, they receive Christ's righteousness. By this they mean, the merit and virtue of Christ's holiness is credited to the believer so that God does not see one's sinfulness and unholy behavior but sees Christ's holiness and obedience.
This has proved to be the greatest hindrance to personal holiness and righteous behavior. After all,' it doesn't matter how I live because God sees me in Jesus.' This God with 'rose tinted glasses' idea is so prevalent today. The writer to the Hebrews warns,' pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord'. Heb 12:14.

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Not that that isn't also (approx) the view of the Reformed. And they are accused of what you seem to think logically follows. Yet, if you read the old Reformers, (try John Owen, for example), you will find statements such as, "Be killing sin, or it will be killing you." In Reformed thinking, we being 'in Christ' necessarily CAUSES our need to live according to Christ. And, as far as I remember back-in-the-day, the Dispensationalists were nearly legalistic about it. But then, my Dispensationalist upbringing (to which dispensationalism I do not hold now) was Fundamentalistic to an extreme.

Jeff Carr said:

The third idea that is a salvation issue is the dispensationalist's view of law and grace.
To the dispensationalist, the Christian is 'not under the Law'. By this they include, the civil, the ceremonial and the moral Law of God.
They happily quote Paul saying, 'we are not under law but grace'. Ask them what they think Paul meant and you will be told that he meant one does not have to keep the 10 commandments. Antinomianism! So, grace now becomes an excuse to live carelessly in a most unchristian like manner.

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To be fair, though I abandoned dispensationalism for good reason, that is not what I would call typical of dispensationalists.

Jeff Carr said:

So, there you have 3 salvation issues that relate to dispensationalism.

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Jeff Carr said:

Salvation is maintained only through the grace of God. We are 'kept by the power of through faith'.

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A very concise way to explain "salvation" if everyone holds to the same understanding about what faith is and how to maintain it.

One's faith cannot be merely a statement of his belief in God's son; he must live his life in obedience to Jesus' commandments to be approved for eternal life after his death.

James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves.

Mark Quayle said:

Just shows, doesn't it, that it makes more sense that salvation be God's decision than ours! He will not lose even one of those upon whom HE chose to show mercy.

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Didn't God show his mercy to the entire human race by sending his son to redeem humankind? Didn't he allow every person to choose for himself?

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Jan001 said:

Didn't God show his mercy to the entire human race by sending his son to redeem humankind? Didn't he allow every person to choose for himself?

1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

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They do choose for themselves regardless, and every one of them, per Romans 8 and other passages, being already at enmity with God, will not choose him, unless he changes their heart. Romans 8:8 says, "And those being in the flesh are not able to please God." Are you saying that validly 'accepting Christ' and producing salvific faith would not please God? I Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Even if, as you seem to think, God's intentions are equally loving toward all, you still would have to answer HOW any person is changed from the enmity toward God, to submission and trust in God. Take John 3:16, for example. Literally, it reads closer to, "For thus God loved the world, for the purpose that all those believing in him will not perish but have eternal life." It does not say that the belief is generated by the believer. It doesn't even say that the believer chooses to believe. (In my opinion, the believer does choose to believe according to what the Spirit of God did to him, when it 'took up residence' within him. It is a result, and not a cause, of his regeneration. Salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God.)

I think the depth of what St. Paul talks about viz-a-viz Israel and the Church understands the Church as faithful Israel, this is why the Apostle speaks of the faithful remnant during the time of Elijah--for Paul the believing Jews are faithful Israel, and Gentiles have been grafted into Israel by faith in the Messiah--because Israel was always meant to be more than a nation, a covenant, or a parcel of land. The prophets continually spoke of a time when the nations would come to Zion, speaking in ways which talk about Israel, in a sense, encompassing the whole earth, and that prophetic vision is fulfilled in Christ, in the Church, and in its most ultimate form looks like the renewal of all things--new heavens and new earth, when the glory of the LORD covers the earth as waters cover the seas, and justice flows like an ever-flowing stream. When God redeems and reconciles Israel, Assyria, and Egypt together (the reconciliation of Assyria and Egypt as sisters to Israel points to a fundamental transformation of the world in which all nations are redeemed and united together under the unity of God's grace).

When we take all of this, what we're left with isn't a view that non-believing Jews aren't Israel, because the Apostle still calls them Israel; even as he calls faithful Israel Israel (see in Ephesians where the Gentiles are made citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, for God has made one what was formerly two, destroying the wall of division). So Israel-ness is a complex idea, it both describes the Church as faithful Israel; and it can be used to describe the as-yet-still unbelieving Jewish people. So when the Apostle speaks of and looks forward to a time when "all Israel will be saved" he very much has in mind his unbelieving kinsmen, the very same he says who (in his time) acted with enmity toward the emerging Christian movement.

So, yes the Church is Israel. But also the Jewish people are Israel.

What, definitively, isn't Israel (biblically speaking) is the modern state in the Levant created in 1948.

Navigating this complexity is necessary if we are going to hold to a biblical perspective.

What Dispensationalism does is undermine the depth and beauty of the Gospel, and takes away the promises of God in the Gospel and makes them apply to a modern ethno-state. Where the promises are in Christ for sinners, all sinners. More dangerously, Dispensationalism--when taken seriously--leads to the conclusion that Jesus Christ, our God, Lord, and Savior, failed. The Cross is not the means by which God willed and purposed to redeem the world; but is a contingency plan because God failed to establish a revolutionary ethno-state in the first century.

Mark Quayle said:

They do choose for themselves regardless, and every one of them, per Romans 8 and other passages, being already at enmity with God, will not choose him, unless he changes their heart. Romans 8:8 says, "And those being in the flesh are not able to please God." Are you saying that validly 'accepting Christ' and producing salvific faith would not please God? I Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

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Since God desires every person to be saved, he provides the grace necessary for their salvation. God cannot desire something and then prevent its fulfillment. 1 Timothy 2:3-6


Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter began to speak to them: “I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Mark Quayle said:

Even if, as you seem to think, God's intentions are equally loving toward all, you still would have to answer HOW any person is changed from the enmity toward God, to submission and trust in God. Take John 3:16, for example. Literally, it reads closer to, "For thus God loved the world, for the purpose that all those believing in him will not perish but have eternal life." It does not say that the belief is generated by the believer. It doesn't even say that the believer chooses to believe. (In my opinion, the believer does choose to believe according to what the Spirit of God did to him, when it 'took up residence' within him. It is a result, and not a cause, of his regeneration. Salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God.

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I agree that "salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God" through Jesus Christ our Lord. Hebrews 12:2

All grace comes from God. God grants to each person the grace necessary to choose to believe in him. God does not force belief, and he doesn't prevent it. Joshua 24:15

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

I started with dispensationalism when I was saved back in 1971.
Dakes, Scofield, Larkin... hook line and sinker.
Those were the days when context went out the window, and people provided their own context, and in this case, dispensationalism was the master context for the entire Bible. My first step away was the rapture. About 1979 or 1980. Thanks primarily to James M. McKeever and his book "Christians will go through the Tribulation"

Aussie52 said:

I have been a Classic Dispensationalist for many, many years. Over the past 2 years I have become doubtful about it, becoming what John MacArthur called, a 'leaky dispensationalist'. I still believe Israel is special to God and is not to be confused with the Church and has future restoration when 'all Israel will be saved'.
Having encountered other dispensationalists, especially on Forums such as this, I have been troubled in the way some Scripture is dismissed by saying, 'that not for us, that's Jewish'. For example, the Sermon on the Mount is said to be 'old dispensation' or for the future Millenium and has no claim on us today. Most of the Old Testament I am being told is for Israel not the Church, and so vast amounts of the Bible are made off limits to today's Christian. This has gradually become disturbing to me and called into question the veracity of dispensationalism.

The question I am now facing is this, is dispensationalism found from within the text of Scripture, or is dispensationalism something being imposed upon Scripture?

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Matt 24:29-31 places the vs 31 rapture event "after the tribulation" according to vs 29. So then "not dispensatonalism"

Matt 24 says that the end is like Noah's flood , one big surprise ending... not a bunch more alternate endings to follow

Rom 2 ends like this
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 9 says this
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed

Aussie52 said:

Is dispensationalism found through exegesis of Scripture or is it a case of eisegesis of Scripture?

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good question

Jan001 said:

Perhaps the following can help you to decide:

How many second comings of Jesus Christ can there be?

Just one second coming; Jesus returns to earth only once more for the resurrection of the dead and the last judgment.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:8

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

How many first resurrections can there be? Just one. Jesus Christ was the first person to rise from the dead with an incorruptible body. Matthew 27:51-53

When Jesus rose from the dead, the spirits of the righteous people residing in Hades rose out of there. Jesus later accompanied them to heaven. These spirits will reign with him there until the resurrection of their bodies from the dead at Jesus' second coming. Revelation 20:4-6

How many seventh (last) trumpets can there be? Only one last trumpet. This trumpet will announce the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead at the end of time. 1 Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 11:15-18

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Rev 20, the first resurrection begins the literal 1000 years of Rev 20

So 1 Thess 4:13-18 is the rapture/first resurrection that Rev 20 calls the first resurrection
Then the 1000 years of Rev 20
Then the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20 and lake of fire

Rev 20

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


that first resurrection focus of the entire NT Church
1 Peter 1:13
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
...
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Aussie52 said:

Sorry Dan, but I was unaware that one had to be a Pauline dispensationalist to, as you wrote, ' be in the faith'.

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And read Rom 16:26. and see !!

dan p