Is there any truth in the ideas expressed by double predestination?

Xeno.of.athens said:

Here is a fully scriptural answer is that shown that double predestination is false, because while Scripture teaches that God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4) and that Christ “gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:6), it nowhere teaches that God positively wills anyone to damnation; rather, damnation is always attributed to the sinner’s freely chosen rejection of grace (Rom 2:6–8; Matt 23:37). St Paul affirms that those God “predestined” are predestined to be conformed to Christ (Rom 8:29), not predestined to evil, and he explicitly teaches that those who perish do so because “they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thess 2:10). Even when Paul speaks of God “hardening” (Rom 9:18), Scripture itself clarifies that such hardening presupposes a prior self‑hardening (Exod 8:15, 32; 1 Sam 6:6), meaning God permits, but never causes, a creature’s sin. Thus, the Catholic reading of Scripture holds that predestination is real, but always and only to grace and glory, while reprobation is never a divine decree but the tragic consequence of freely resisting the grace God offers to all (Wis 1:12–13; Ezek 33:11).

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This is an important point.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Here is a fully scriptural answer, one that shows that double predestination is false, because while Scripture teaches that God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4) and that Christ “gave himself as a ransom for all” (1 Tim 2:6), it nowhere teaches that God positively wills anyone to damnation; rather, damnation is always attributed to the sinner’s freely chosen rejection of grace (Rom 2:6–8; Matt 23:37). St Paul affirms that those God “predestined” are predestined to be conformed to Christ (Rom 8:29), not predestined to evil, and he explicitly teaches that those who perish do so because “they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thess 2:10). Even when Paul speaks of God “hardening” (Rom 9:18), Scripture itself clarifies that such hardening presupposes a prior self‑hardening (Exod 8:15, 32; 1 Sam 6:6), meaning God permits, but never causes, a creature’s sin. Thus, the Catholic reading of Scripture holds that predestination is real, but always and only to grace and glory, while reprobation is never a divine decree but the tragic consequence of freely resisting the grace God offers to all (Wis 1:12–13; Ezek 33:11).

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Give us a definition for double-predestination. Not the bare skeleton you wish to attach the strawman to.

Omniscience is not possible if there wasn't/isn't always just only one possibility/pathway, or just only one way for everything, which automatically means everything is predestined/foreordained, etc. You can't know a way a thing is going to happen/choose/go for 100% certain if those possibilities are not just only 100% certain one way only, and the other being absolute zero always from your perspective, or you don't know everything, etc. No being anywhere can do that ever, etc. If they are anything other than absolutely 100% and absolute zero, then you, or any other being anywhere, can't know them for 100% certain, etc. But all possibilities can be 100% sure/certain, and knowable for 100% certain, if this universe is 100% deterministic, and there's only ever one way it can all ever happen/go, etc, otherwise it can't, or cannot be ever, etc.

Neogaia777 said:

Omniscience is not possible if there wasn't/isn't always just only one possibility/pathway, or just only one way for everything, which automatically means everything is predestined/foreordained, etc. You can't know a way a thing is going to happen/choose/go for 100% certain if those possibilities are not just only 100% certain one way only, and the other being absolute zero always from your perspective, or you don't know everything, etc. No being anywhere can do that ever, etc. If they are anything other than absolutely 100% and absolute zero, then you, or any other being anywhere, can't know them for 100% certain, etc. But all possibilities can be 100% sure/certain, and knowable for 100% certain, if this universe is 100% deterministic, and there's only ever one way it can all ever happen/go, etc, otherwise it can't, or cannot be ever, etc.

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This argument would make perfect sense if it was applied to humans, or indeed any being that is confined like we are to move along the time dimension at the fixed rate of 1 second per second. We, as limited humans, cannot conceive of any other mode of existence regarding the flow of time. Some say that God is outside of time. That is, He exists separate from the relentless flow of time and and sees it all. His interactions with the world appear to us like that of a being that is moving through time as we are. But that does not mean that is the case. The fact that God can see what "happened"/"will happen" in 2028 in no way constrains what happens in 2028 than if God did not see what did/will happen.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I reject the claim that divine omniscience requires a universe with only one possible pathway, because Scripture shows God knowing future free choices without causing or predetermining them—Christ foreknows Peter’s denial (Luke 22:34) and Judas’s betrayal (John 13:11) even though both acts remain morally responsible, proving that foreknowledge does not equal predetermination. The Church teaches the same: “God’s eternal plan includes the free response of each person to His grace” (CCC 600), meaning God infallibly knows contingent futures precisely because His knowledge is not bound by time—“for Him all things are present to His eyes” (CCC 600; cf. 2 Peter 3:8). The argument you quoted falsely assumes God must reason discursively like a creature, but Catholic dogma insists God’s knowledge is simple, eternal, and immediate (CCC 202; 216), so He does not predict possibilities—He beholds all moments of history in a single act of knowing. Scripture explicitly denies that God predestines anyone to damnation: “God desires all men to be saved” (1 Tim 2:4), “not wishing that any should perish” (2 Peter 3:9), and Christ weeps over Jerusalem’s refusal of grace (Matt 23:37), which would be incoherent if their rejection were predetermined. Thus, the claim that omniscience requires absolute determinism collapses: God’s perfect knowledge does not eliminate human freedom, because He knows free acts as free, contingent acts as contingent, and His foreknowledge does not impose necessity upon them - “those whom He foreknew He also predestined” (Rom 8:29), meaning predestination follows foreknowledge, not the other way around.

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God in the OT/YHWH was not always fully omniscient, and didn't start out that way. He's just as much a part of all of this determinism/time as much as we are right now currently, but who's true purpose is to allow God to be relational to us, and show us who God is, etc (along with Jesus Christ also, who also was not always fully omniscient/didn't start out that way 100%) (Hence that ones claims with being completely equal to YHWH, but not equal to this other One yet, etc) but all of this is also why things in the scripture are told to us from that perspective, etc, or the perspective of choice sometimes, etc. It is impossible for the One who is always fully omniscient to both relate to us or show himself to us without these others who are also locked into all of this determinism/time with us, etc, anyway, without these other ones, it is impossible for this other One to make himself known, and/or relate/show himself to us. It is the one and only limitation with this One's always knowing/predetermining all from the beginning, or making the universe/this reality this way, etc.

In no reality for any being anywhere is it possible to know a thing 100% and there be existing some other possibilities that aren't 100%, and the other one absolutely 0%. So in order for there to be any being anywhere who always knows absolutely everything 100%, all other possibilities have to be 100% absolutely 0%, otherwise full omniscience just isn't possible, etc. Therefore, in order for that to happen or be (there be any being anywhere who always knows everything 100% absolutely 100%) then this universe/reality has to be deterministic, with only one real pathway that this one can go ever, etc.

It's either this that I am right now telling you, or these God/Gods don't exist, or are made-up/invented by men like a lot of non-believers say, etc.

God Bless.

Xeno.of.athens said:

The claim that YHWH “was not always fully omniscient” contradicts the constant witness of Scripture and the dogmatic teaching of the Church. In the Old Testament God declares, “I am God, and there is no other… declaring the end from the beginning” (Isa 46:9–10), which presupposes absolute and eternal omniscience, not a developing or time‑bound knowledge. God’s knowledge is not acquired, sequential, or reactive; He speaks through the prophet, “Before ever a day came to be, all were written in your book” (Ps 139:16), and the Church teaches that God is “eternal, immutable, incomprehensible, almighty” (Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800). Any theory that places God “inside” determinism or time denies His divinity, because “with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet 3:8), meaning He is not subject to temporal process at all.

Likewise, the suggestion that the Son “did not start out fully omniscient” is incompatible with the dogma of the Incarnation. Christ assumed a true human nature, including a human intellect, but the divine Person of the Son never ceased to possess the fullness of divine knowledge. The Catechism teaches that in His human soul Christ enjoyed the “immediate knowledge of the Father” (CCC 473), and Scripture affirms His divine omniscience: “Lord, you know all things” (Jn 21:17). When the Gospels speak of Christ “not knowing” the day or hour (Mk 13:32), Catholic tradition interprets this as referring to His human mode of knowing, not a limitation in His divine Person. To claim that Jesus is “not equal to the Other One yet” revives the Arian error condemned at Nicaea, which solemnly professes the Son to be “true God from true God… consubstantial with the Father.”

Finally, the argument that omniscience requires a deterministic universe, or else God cannot relate to us is a philosophical assumption, not a biblical or Catholic truth. Scripture shows God freely entering covenantal relationship with creatures while eternally knowing all things: “His understanding is infinite” (Ps 147:5), yet He genuinely invites human response, “Choose life” (Deut 30:19). Catholic doctrine holds both divine providence and authentic human freedom without collapsing either into determinism (CCC 302–308). God does not need to limit His knowledge or create lesser “versions” of Himself to reveal Himself; He freely accommodates Himself to us through revelation and, supremely, through the Incarnation. The dilemma “either this is true or God is made‑up” is therefore false: the God of Scripture and the Church is eternally omniscient, sovereign, and yet personally relational in a way no creaturely model of knowledge can constrain.

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It's either as I said, or these God's don't exist, etc. Or men we're lying about some things, or scripture was exaggerated, or changed, or whatever, or our interpretations are or were classically wrong, or these God's don't exist, etc.

And I don't expect logic to change your mind either, as that's already been presented, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

It's either as I said, or these God's don't exist, etc. Or men we're lying about some things, or scripture was exaggerated, or changed, or whatever, or our interpretations are or were classically wrong, or these God's don't exist, etc.

And I don't expect logic to change your mind either, as that's already been presented, etc.

God Bless.

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I've explored the possibilities, and these are the only ones left that doesn't contradict everything else we right now know.

Heresy/blasphemy or not, they're the only possibilities left that doesn't contradict everything else we right now know.

God Bless.

I have an issue with the business of predestination. I don't know the answer but due to personal experience it makes me uncomfortable.

I've maintained for years that the night my father died he appeared in my room. At the very end he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared. It was more than just a scream. He was terrified to the core and it was obvious something was coming for him.

But during the preceding conversation he blurted out at one stage "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time but I answered back "That can't be right!" (in the sense of being fair and just). He replied "Oh, it's right all right. You can see that from here!".

"Here" in his case was, I think, standing in front of the judgement seat. I couldn't see it and whenever I turned around all I could see was the wall behind me. If I had been able to see it, I'd have died myself since "No man can see my face and live" as God said to Moses.

But my father was already dead having died that night.

Later in the conversation he admitted "I was willing!" (to act in the cruel, stupid, bad-tempered and vindictive way he did and to keep doing it all his married life).

Now he died in January 1979. Going back a few years, I had a "vision" one night where "somebody" said "I've had enough of him! He's doomed! All he's done all your life is to ridicule you! .... He's only got about five years left to live!"

That would have been in early 1974 because late that year I moved to Perth, came back in 1977, he kicked me out of the house in January 1978, and about a year later he died in January 1979 - "about five years later".

Then we have Christ's comment about Judas Iscariot -

NIV John 17:12 "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

Even in the case of Pharaoh, I think we read "... and Pharaoh hardened his heart" for the first nine plagues. But for the tenth we read "God hardened his heart". Perhaps God had gotten to the point where He might have said to Moses "I've had enough of him.... he's doomed!"

I don't like it. But I have a suspicion there's more to predestination than we might want to think. In contrast to that we have the parable of the prodigal son in which the sinner is welcomed home to the resentment of the obedient son.

I don't know the full answer. As my father also said the night he died "It wasn't easy for me either you know. And I never had a chance to see anything like this!"

Xeno.of.athens said:

Tell you what, if you profess suffienct expertise to define it and even more to accuse me of creating a strawman, how about you define it.

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My comments were intended to show that to argue against it, one should define just what they are arguing against, before proceeding. The clinical "double-predestination" means very little, but to point toward the notion that both ends are predestined. So then, "predestination" bears defining. That gets into who is doing the predestining. The very definition of God and of Creation and Creatures become involved, and there are huge differences of worldview that come into play.

The one that gets me, about the term, "double-predestination", is all the baggage that comes with it, anymore. The thing people keep wanting to chime in with begins with the assumption that we know what it means for God to be love, and that therefore, HE would not send anyone to hell, would he???, and various other things along those lines. We completely forget WHY anyone is even saved. We forget that God owes nobody anything. We forget that WE are not the reason God made us. We forget that God will do precisely what it takes to make for himself a people in Heaven, to be with him forever, FOR HIS OWN SAKE. We forget that GOD is the one who is doing this.

The reprobate are only being what they are, no matter how you dress it up. The saved aren't much better, yet they are utterly changed, and being built, and that, in part, by the fact of God's justice on display for the saved to learn of God's mercy. THAT is why some are predestined to hell, and, yes, it is their own fault. We are not saved by our merit, but by God's mercy and grace alone.