Paul's argument against the idea that water baptism saves. (Implied)

MarkRohfrietsch · Jun 10, 2026

ViaCrucis said:
In a marriage two people have come together and pledged their love to one another--naturally they love each other already by the time they pledge that love by deciding to get married, and then the marriage happens and they exchange vows and commit to each other. And every year they will celebrate that, often by giving each other gifts and other ways of celebrating it. And throughout the whole marriage they will say "I love you" to each other, do things for one another. Each of these is an act of giving love to someone else, but the act of giving love in these ways does not imply there was an absence of love prior. A man and a woman love each other before they get married, and a married couple love each other not just on their anniversary but the whole time in between anniversaries. Each gift, each declaration, every word of affection is a giving of love, not of a love that was absent before, but the same love that already was.

We can recognize something like this in our mundane human relationships. That love is given, over and over without thinking of an absence; so it should not be terribly crazy to conceive that God, in His love toward us, is freely offering His grace.

When I receive the body and blood of the Lord in His Supper, this is grace--not a new grace that God didn't have toward me already, but the same grace He has always had toward me. I'm not receiving something that did not already exist, I'm receiving what God already is; and what He already is toward me through His own Son. The super-abundance of grace which God has for us in Christ is ubiquitous, ever-present, and always--that same grace is potent and present in Word and Sacrament. God's free Self-giving of Himself toward us out of the infinite abundance of Himself, and which He has for the whole world of sinners and broken creation.

You said that so well! Thank you!

concretecamper · Jun 10, 2026

ViaCrucis said:
When I receive the body and blood of the Lord in His Supper, this is grace--not a new grace that God didn't have toward me already, but the same grace He has always had toward me.

But it IS NOT the same Grace given to those who have never been Baptized and then afterwards received His Body. The idea that it is is what I took exception to

PloverWing · Jun 10, 2026

Dave... said:
I agree, but I would temper that with this.

"In a time like this of tolerance, listen, false teaching will always cry intolerance. It will always say you are being divisive, you are being unloving, you are being ungracious, because it can only survive when it doesn't get scrutinized. So it cries against any intolerance. It cries against any examination, any scrutiny—just let's embrace each other; let's love each other; let's put all that behind us. False doctrine cries the loudest about unity. Listen carefully when you hear the cry for unity, because it may be the cover of false doctrine encroaching. If ever we should follow 1 Thessalonians 5, and examine everything carefully, it's when somebody is crying unity, love, and acceptance." Macarthur

Sometimes telling people the truth, no matter how gentle we try to be, is taken as an offense. Like Paul stated "Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" In fact, the first line of defense for false teachers these days is to claim victimhood. 'You just hate us...' etc.. Sometimes, when defending that line of defense, you're not the voice of reason, rather, you're just appeasing them in their lies. I suppose there is a balance to be held along with some discernment.

It's a good point that we shouldn't pretend we agree if we don't. Truth is important.

I'll counter with this, though: Just because a person is unloving, ungracious, and offensive doesn't mean that the person is speaking the truth. A person can be unloving, ungracious, offensive, and also wrong. There are better ways to discern what is true.

ViaCrucis · Jun 10, 2026

concretecamper said:
But it IS NOT the same Grace given to those who have never been Baptized and then afterwards received His Body. The idea that it is is what I took exception to

This is going to involve a much deeper conversation about the nature of grace. I don't subscribe to the idea that grace is a created substance; but that grace is uncreated; and is about God's benevolent disposition. Not quite reaching a Palamist view, but arguably closer to Gregory Palamas than the Barlamist view. And that itself is going to create a disconnect in the discussion here.

More practically, however: The grace we receive in Baptism is, absolutely, the same grace God has toward us in Christ already--because of what He did already in the Incarnation, especially in the Passion, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. It is not a "new grace" but the same grace--the grace with which God gives Himself freely to the world in Christ who became flesh and bore our sins on the Cross.

What happens in Baptism is regeneration, new birth, whereby the old man dies and a new man is created--and thus the newness of the baptized is what God causes to happen in Holy Baptism. But there are clear cases of this same newness happening outside of the tight strictures of Baptism, such as the thief on the cross, who by the word of God is declared righteous for Christ says, "You will be with Me in Paradise", or in the case of those holy martyrs who were robbed of the chance to be baptized but nevertheless the Church confesses to have been baptized with a baptism of blood or a baptism of desire.

Baptism, we should understand, is not a hurdle placed in front of people by God in order that they should earn His favor. Baptism flows out of the already-present favor which God has toward sinners through the sublime super-abundance of mercy and love with which He loves the world already in His own beloved Son who suffered and died for all.

ViaCrucis · Jun 10, 2026

Dave... said:
Hi Mark

You're post rings of relativism and universalism. Am I misreading you?

Most certainly you are.

Mark is preaching the absolutism and universal truth of the Gospel.

The absolutism is in that God, absolutely, objectively, declares us just on Christ's account.

But let's explore the universal stuff first.

St. Paul reminds us when he talks to Timothy, that God "is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe". Some have taken this and ran with it to say that everyone will be saved in the end. A view known as Universalism.

What Mark, and Lutherans as a whole, confess is that the Gospel is most definitely, and without qualification, universal. Jesus Christ died for everyone.

The difference between the universality of the Gospel and Universalism is that the latter claims an outcome that Scripture never teaches: Everyone will be saved. Where the Bible says God wants everyone to be saved. That's the difference.

One of the best summaries of this is in the words of C.S. Lewis, when he writes that in the end there are two kinds of people, those who say to God "Thy will be done:" And those to whom God says, "Very well, have it your way".

For the way and will of man is toward his own destruction.
But the way and will of God is toward the salvation of all.

When Scripture declares that Christ died for all, it's not joking. It's not saying, "Jesus died, potentially, for everyone", it means what it says: Jesus died for everyone. That's why St. Paul says in Romans that all are justified, because what happened on the Cross is objectively, absolutely, universal: Christ died for everyone--and in that sense EVERYONE died when Christ died. That is also what Hebrews says when it says Christ tasted death for every human being (Hebrews 2:9).

This is offensive to all who prefer glory and to boast of themselves. For the carnal appetite of man is to boast of himself, and to seek glory for himself. It's why man, left to himself, wants to earn salvation--to earn through his own power and ability the right to call himself saved.

But Scripture does not leave us that option. But declares that it is by grace that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Thus our salvation is accomplished by the will of God alone, because Christ alone suffered and died for the sins of the whole world. Thus what God has done is universal, unconditional--for all, once and for all.

But not all will be saved. The Apostle says this when he says, "Have all under-heard the Gospel?" (Romans 10:16), because they have not. Even as the Lord Himself teaches in the Parable of the Sower--the seed (the word) is sown, but while the seed is sown universally, the outcome is not universalist.

So we see that while the will and desire of God, and the work of God, is universal. It is not universalist. Otherwise all would, indeed, most certainly be saved. Yet Scripture suggests that there are many who will not be saved--even those who when they first hear the word and believe, but later throw their faith away and abandon themselves to apostasy.

Which is why we are always to be found at the receiving end of Word and Sacrament. For without the dispensation of God's glorious mercy which is ours, freely, through the Gospel--we starve, die, and wither.

MarkRohfrietsch · Thursday at 5:33 AM

ViaCrucis said:
Most certainly you are.

Mark is preaching the absolutism and universal truth of the Gospel.

The absolutism is in that God, absolutely, objectively, declares us just on Christ's account.

But let's explore the universal stuff first.

St. Paul reminds us when he talks to Timothy, that God "is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe". Some have taken this and ran with it to say that everyone will be saved in the end. A view known as Universalism.

What Mark, and Lutherans as a whole, confess is that the Gospel is most definitely, and without qualification, universal. Jesus Christ died for everyone.

The difference between the universality of the Gospel and Universalism is that the latter claims an outcome that Scripture never teaches: Everyone will be saved. Where the Bible says God wants everyone to be saved. That's the difference.

One of the best summaries of this is in the words of C.S. Lewis, when he writes that in the end there are two kinds of people, those who say to God "Thy will be done:" And those to whom God says, "Very well, have it your way".

For the way and will of man is toward his own destruction.
But the way and will of God is toward the salvation of all.

When Scripture declares that Christ died for all, it's not joking. It's not saying, "Jesus died, potentially, for everyone", it means what it says: Jesus died for everyone. That's why St. Paul says in Romans that all are justified, because what happened on the Cross is objectively, absolutely, universal: Christ died for everyone--and in that sense EVERYONE died when Christ died. That is also what Hebrews says when it says Christ tasted death for every human being (Hebrews 2:9).

This is offensive to all who prefer glory and to boast of themselves. For the carnal appetite of man is to boast of himself, and to seek glory for himself. It's why man, left to himself, wants to earn salvation--to earn through his own power and ability the right to call himself saved.

But Scripture does not leave us that option. But declares that it is by grace that we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Thus our salvation is accomplished by the will of God alone, because Christ alone suffered and died for the sins of the whole world. Thus what God has done is universal, unconditional--for all, once and for all.

But not all will be saved. The Apostle says this when he says, "Have all under-heard the Gospel?" (Romans 10:16), because they have not. Even as the Lord Himself teaches in the Parable of the Sower--the seed (the word) is sown, but while the seed is sown universally, the outcome is not universalist.

So we see that while the will and desire of God, and the work of God, is universal. It is not universalist. Otherwise all would, indeed, most certainly be saved. Yet Scripture suggests that there are many who will not be saved--even those who when they first hear the word and believe, but later throw their faith away and abandon themselves to apostasy.

Which is why we are always to be found at the receiving end of Word and Sacrament. For without the dispensation of God's glorious mercy which is ours, freely, through the Gospel--we starve, die, and wither.

Thank you, again!

concretecamper · Thursday at 8:08 AM

ViaCrucis said:
More practically, however: The grace we receive in Baptism is, absolutely, the same grace God has toward us in Christ already--because of what He did already in the Incarnation, especially in the Passion, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. It is not a "new grace" but the same grace--the grace with which God gives Himself freely to the world in Christ who became flesh and bore our sins on the Cross.

Not sure how this answers my objection that the Grace received through the Sacrament of Baptism is the same Grace afford to those who haven't received the Sacrament.

ViaCrucis said:
What happens in Baptism is regeneration, new birth, whereby the old man dies and a new man is created--and thus the newness of the baptized is what God causes to happen in Holy Baptism. But there are clear cases of this same newness happening outside of the tight strictures of Baptism, such as the thief on the cross, who by the word of God is declared righteous for Christ says, "You will be with Me in Paradise", or in the case of those holy martyrs who were robbed of the chance to be baptized but nevertheless the Church confesses to have been baptized with a baptism of blood or a baptism of desire.

The Grace freely given by Him through the Sacrament of Baptism makes us a Member of the Church, the Body of Christ.

The thief was saved under the Old Covenant. So Baptism doesn't apply.

Baptism by blood/desire is a narrow definition for those catechumens who die prior to receiving the Sacrament.

ViaCrucis said:
Baptism, we should understand, is not a hurdle placed in front of people by God in order that they should earn His favor. Baptism flows out of the already-present favor which God has toward sinners through the sublime super-abundance of mercy and love with which He loves the world already in His own beloved Son who suffered and died for all.

Of course it is not a hurdle. It's the way He chose to impart that singular Grace which makes us part of His Body, The Church.

Dave... · Thursday at 1:51 PM

ViaCrucis said:
What Mark, and Lutherans as a whole, confess is that the Gospel is most definitely, and without qualification, universal. Jesus Christ died for everyone.

'The benefits of Jesus dying on the cross is offered to everyone' is probably a better way to say it. One must be in Christ spiritually to receive those blessings of atonement, righteousness of God imputed, and access to His death and resurrection to be born again and begin the process of being conformed to Christlikeness.

ViaCrucis said:
The difference between the universality of the Gospel and Universalism is that the latter claims an outcome that Scripture never teaches: Everyone will be saved. Where the Bible says God wants everyone to be saved. That's the difference.

God's desire is that everyone be saved. But He also knows that's not going to happen, Him being all knowing.

ViaCrucis said:
One of the best summaries of this is in the words of C.S. Lewis, when he writes that in the end there are two kinds of people, those who say to God "Thy will be done:" And those to whom God says, "Very well, have it your way".

That's funny. Sounds like something Spurgeon might say. Sarcasm can cut right to the marrow of the bone and is an effective teaching tool. Even Paul used it. 1 Corinthians 14:6, "Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?"...etc.

ViaCrucis said:
When Scripture declares that Christ died for all, it's not joking. It's not saying, "Jesus died, potentially, for everyone", it means what it says: Jesus died for everyone. That's why St. Paul says in Romans that all are justified, because what happened on the Cross is objectively, absolutely, universal: Christ died for everyone--and in that sense EVERYONE died when Christ died. That is also what Hebrews says when it says Christ tasted death for every human being (Hebrews 2:9).

I disagree. We die with Christ when we are placed into Him (Galatians 2:20 see context.), which is only the result of faith, and are raised up with Him (Ephesians 2:6, again, see context.), born again.

Romans 5:18 (I'm guessing that's the passage that you're speaking of), could not possibly be interpreted as you say in light of the rest of the Bible, especially Paul's teaching in the same letter. If everyone died with Christ, then they were also raised up with Him, born again. Everyone would be born again. That only happens in Christ. Everyone is in Adam until they are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. In Adam is already dead. This is Spiritual. Only the indwelling with the Holy Spirit, which is only a result of faith in Jesus, can make a person saved. Hebrews 2:9 "might". Again, this is a reach to begin with. Everyone is in Adam until they are in Christ. They are in Christ as a result of the indwelling, which places them in Christ and gives them life. Adam, death. Christ life. We are placed into Christ by one means only, by faith. And by that faith He will be "bringing many sons to glory" Hebrews 2:10

Sorry, i ran out of time.

ViaCrucis said:
Thus our salvation is accomplished by the will of God alone, because Christ alone suffered and died for the sins of the whole world. Thus what God has done is universal, unconditional--for all, once and for all.

The offer is universal, but it does not apply until a person is in Christ.

MarkRohfrietsch · Friday at 12:43 AM

Dave... said:
'The benefits of Jesus dying on the cross is offered to everyone' is probably a better way to say it. One must be in Christ spiritually to receive those blessings of atonement, righteousness of God imputed, and access to His death and resurrection to be born again and begin the process of being conformed to Christlikeness.
No, your statement is wrong. He did die for all, not an offer, a one and done deal. If it were an offer, that would mean that we have the power to accept that grace. We do not, we only have free will and the old Adam within us, so the only power we have is to reject God's grace, that is our natural state.

<Snip>

Sorry, i ran out of time.

So did I. LOL

ViaCrucis · Friday at 12:17 PM

Dave... said:
'The benefits of Jesus dying on the cross is offered to everyone' is probably a better way to say it.

Jesus Christ died for everyone. No exceptions.

Dave... · Friday at 1:13 PM

MarkRohfrietsch said:
No, your statement is wrong. He did die for all, not an offer, a one and done deal. If it were an offer, that would mean that we have the power to accept that grace. We do not, we only have free will and the old Adam within us, so the only power we have is to reject God's grace, that is our natural state.

<Snip>

His offer of salvation is for everyone, but the old man, and the necessary death that must precede the life, being born again, does not happen until a person is placed into Christ. That's always the result of someone initially believing. If everyone already died that death before they came to faith, then nobody is a slave to sin any longer. Listen to Paul...

Romans 6:3-11

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into (placed into) Christ Jesus were baptized into (placed into) His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism (Baptism with/by the Holy Spirit) into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Colossians 2:9-14 We are buried with Him in that placing into, and raised up with Him into life, born again.

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in [Spirit] baptism [by faith], in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

We die to Adam, and are raised up with Christ Jesus. This all happens when we are placed "in Christ" by faith.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Consider these also.

1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into (Placed into) one body (Jesus)--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

The life, which is from that indwelling, which is the result of faith, is the result of initially believing. The ongoing faith, called the life, and justification, comes as a result of that initial faith and indwelling.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

BTW, the sin nature just says that we cannot do good by righteous standards. It's doesn't say that we cannot desire to be saved (Romans 7:18). Desire = initial faith, the life = ongoing faith, gift from God.

Dave... · Friday at 1:25 PM

ViaCrucis said:
Jesus Christ died for everyone. No exceptions.

The offer is for everyone. His death on the cross only applies when one is placed into Christ by faith. We are universally dead in Adam. And we need to die to Adam and be raised up, born again in Christ.

Dan Perez · Friday at 9:01 PM

concretecamper said:
But it IS NOT the same Grace given to those who have never been Baptized and then afterwards received His Body. The idea that it is is what I took exception to

And there are ONLY 2 verse that I know !!

One is Matt 26:29. or 1 Cor. 11:29 and they will not keek the Lord's supper until the NEW KINGDOM only for Israel. !!

The second one in. 1 COR. 11: 29 AND some are dead as they drank DAMNATION TO. THEMSELVES and this supper

for the BODY OF CHRIST , ONLY.

dan p

Dan Perez · Friday at 9:10 PM

ViaCrucis said:
Jesus Christ died for everyone. No exceptions.

AND IN 2 Cor 5:15 , and He died for ALL. !!

dan p

Dan Perez · Friday at 9:31 PM

Lukaris said:
Our English language is plain enough to tell us that Paul never changed the practice of baptism. He explained the fulfillment of what we receive in baptism ( Romans 6:4 for example.). There is no difference indicated in the practice if we compare 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 to that of Acts 10:44-48. Peter explains the difference between the practice of baptism and baptism into the Spirit ( 1 Peter 3:18-22).

I don’t know Greek but the translations from Greek to English are consistent without having to know some inside trick to claim otherwise.

Bilingual New Testament, Greek / Patriarchal (Antoniades) Edition - English / King James

www.ellopos.net

And I have said many times that the Rom 6:4 in. the Greek text is NOT BAPTISM. and when anyone checks

the GREEK TEXT it is BAPTISMA and not only here BUT SOME 22 times beginning in. Matt 3:7 and in EPH 4:5

and ends with 1 Petyer 3:21 and is so easy to CHECK !!!!!!!!

dan p

Lukaris · Friday at 9:59 PM

Dan Perez said:
And I have said many times that the Rom 6:4 in. the Greek text is NOT BAPTISM. and when anyone checks

the HGREEK TEXT it is BAPTIOSMA and not only here BUT SOME 22 times beginning in. Matt 3:7 and in EPH 4:5

and ends with 1 Petyer 3:21 and is so easy to CHECK !!!!!!!!

dan p

◄ 907. baptizó ►

Lexical Summary

baptizó: To baptize, to immerse, to dip

Original Word: βαπτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: baptizó
Pronunciation: bap-TID-zo
Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
KJV: Baptist, baptize, wash
NASB: baptized, baptizing, baptize, Baptist, baptizes, ceremonially washed, undergo
Word Origin: [from a derivative of G911 (βάπτω - dip)]

1. to immerse, submerge
2. to make whelmed or soaked (i.e. fully wet)
{used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism}

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
baptize, wash.
From a derivative of bapto; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. Fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism -- Baptist, baptize, wash.

see GREEK bapto

HELPS Word-studies
907 baptízō – properly, "submerge" (Souter); hence, baptize, to immerse (literally, "dip under"). 907 (baptízō) implies submersion ("immersion"), in contrast to 472 /antéxomai("sprinkle").

Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- To baptize, to immerse, to dip

Strong's Greek: 908. βάπτισμα (baptisma) -- Baptism

from within the link above:

3. of Christian baptism; this, according to the view of the apostles, is a rite of sacred immersion, commanded by Christ, by which men confessing their sins and professing their faith in Christ are born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, come into the fellowship of Christ and the church (1 Corinthians 12:13), and are made partakers of eternal salvation; (but see article in BB. DD., McClintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia, Schaff-Herzog): Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12 (L marginal reading Tr βαπτισμῷ which see); 1 Peter 3:21; εἰς τόν θάνατον Romans 6:4 (see βαπτίζω, II.

ViaCrucis · Saturday at 9:48 AM

Dave... said:
The offer is for everyone. His death on the cross only applies when one is placed into Christ by faith. We are universally dead in Adam. And we need to die to Adam and be raised up, born again in Christ.

True or false, Christ tasted death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

Dave... · Saturday at 3:36 PM

ViaCrucis said:
True or false, Christ tasted death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

Again, interpreting a verse on an island is not the proper way to to read the Bible. We need context to do that. Context is why the correct interpretation cannot be seen by the natural mind. 1 Corinthians 2:19.

So, to answer your question, my definition of 'tasted death for everyone' is different from yours. My definition is that by tasting death (since He didn't stay dead), He made salvation available for every man who comes to faith. Yours is that He died for every man, literally making atonement for every man, and making man dead to Adam, and in some middle ground neutral state between death in Adam and life in Christ. But that neutral ground doesn't exist in Scripture. In fact it's hostile to it. And the death and life are inseparable, they happen almost simultaneously when we are placed into Christ. First the death, always followed by the life. The atonement, the death to Adam, the life from the indwelling Spirit, are all the result being in Christ, which is the result of faith. We are crucified with Christ when we are in Christ.

Atonement is the result of faith.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

And, one can't have the death of the old man without the life of the new man since we are placed into that death, and life, as a result of being placed into Christ Jesus by faith.

Romans 6:5 "For if we ( believers ) have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we (same believers) *also shall* be in the likeness of His resurrection,

You see, you are reading something into that Hebrew text that it doesn't say. On top of that, your idea is hostile to the rest of Scripture. You're trying to use half truth to set a false narrative by limiting my answer to "true or false". That's not always the case, but in this case that's the only conclusion I can come to since you guys also ignore context, both immediate and of the whole Bible.

Watch, I'll show you. The first part sounds like a slam dunk right? But we see the same John say the same thing in his Gospel and Epistle, and we get clarity on what he meant. The words all and world sometimes do not mean every individual. Sometimes is means Jew and Gentile. Sometimes it means believers scattered abroad. Remember, for the most part, the Bible was written by Jews to Jews. Context....

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51-52 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

===========

In that same way, approach Hebrews 2:9, with caution, and with context.

Dave

concretecamper · Saturday at 5:41 PM

Mat 20:27 And he that will be first among you shall be your servant. 20:28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister and to give his life a redemption for many.

That is why at Holy Mass, this is said:

"Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the Blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

Dan Perez · Monday at 9:45 PM

Proximus said:
The water of baptism is material, but the regeneration, which is according to how a man lives according to his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ being God, and shuns evils as sins, is spiritual, and so the salvation is eventually tied to that. But baptism is also introduction into the church. But the baptism which replaced the circumcision saves as much as the circumcision, though baptism is needed, but it only serves a reminded essentially that a person can be regenerated, if he or she looks to the Lord, and lives according to the commandments, taking up the cross daily.

Paul speaks in different places in different contexts. So, in some places, he speaks about the law (of circumcision) to the effect that noone can be saved by law, that is, by such law, but only by faith, that is, by living faith, which goes hand in hand with the life of charity, according to the spiritual moral commandments, about which James speak, and to which Paul refers saying that he delights in the spiritual-moral law by his internal man, while his external man, being in lusts, hates that. But when folks began to take out his words out of context, and try to ignore everything which the Gospel teaches about that spiritual-moral law of commandments, leading to eternal life, then the whole confusion arose.

And is no verse that says Paul believes in water Baptism. and that he was water BAPTIZED or that HE Paul BAPTIZED

ANYONE EVER !!

And if you read ACTS 9:17 , Paul was BAPTIZED WITH HOLY SPIRIT and not by water //. hydro. . PERIOD. !!

dan p

Paul's argument against the idea that water baptism saves. (Implied)

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