• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Adventist view on the Sabbath as the final test of loyalty

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Respectfully, this is not a non-sequitur, because the document has been used by Adventists to represent Roman Catholic theology but since the document is not of Vatican provenance
It is Roman Catholic theology. That it is not Vatican originated is, again, non-sequitur since no Adventist ever claimed it was.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
... It should also be noted that as an Orthodox Christian I do not subscribe to Roman Catholic theology although I agree with some of it and additionally find continual SDA criticism of the RCC to be unwarranted and vexatious.
A catholic is a catholic. Roman or not. The internal distinctions 'you' (the peoples) make among yourselves is simply infighting over definitions, names, words, usages and personages. I can show (in another place, as it is not the purpose of this OP or thread) that so called 'Orthodoxy' and Roman Catholicism share a great deal of "theology" and "praxy" (even as you said, "although I agree with some of it"), and since the Jesuit counter-reformation, and the infiltration and destruction of the 'old 'orthodoxical' orders' by them (Russian Revolution, Greek revolutionary wars and various others, &c.) they are closer than the 'lay' will admit, but the upper echelon knows the facts.

What you find "unwarranted and vexatious" is not really my concern, in the least. Your personal subjective opinion on the matter is really not worth much in the light of the presented citations (scriptural and historical).

"SDA criticism" is simply an 'amen' of the scriptural condemnation / criticism of that 'catholic system' as a whole, "Mother" and 'daughters' (Rev. 17). The Seventh-day Adventists are not the only ones who understand that vicarius christi (antichristos) system for what it is, in all its forms, as it has been an historical position, since the scriptural foundations said it in print.

- The Anti Christ Identified By Christians In History : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
- Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
... 1 Corinthians 16:2) to show that the earliest Christians were already gathering to break bread on the first day of the week
Do you (following AI's 'regurgitation' (ie. 'barf')) actually think that 1 Cor. 16:2 has Christians meeting together ("gathering") to "break bread" on the "first day of the week"? I am just curious what 'you' actually think about the AI's wresting of that passage? Here it is in English and koine Greek:

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.​
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.​
1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.​
1Co 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.​
1Co 16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.​
1Co 16:6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go.​
1Co 16:7 For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit.​
1Co 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.​
1Co 16:9 For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.​
1Co 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.​
1Co 16:11 Let no man therefore despise him: but conduct him forth in peace, that he may come unto me: for I look for him with the brethren.​
1Co 16:1 περι δε της λογιας της εις τους αγιους ωσπερ διεταξα ταις εκκλησιαις της γαλατιας ουτως και υμεις ποιησατε​
1Co 16:2 κατα μιαν σαββατων εκαστος υμων παρ εαυτω τιθετω θησαυριζων ο τι αν ευοδωται ινα μη οταν ελθω τοτε λογιαι γινωνται​
1Co 16:3 οταν δε παραγενωμαι ους εαν δοκιμασητε δι επιστολων τουτους πεμψω απενεγκειν την χαριν υμων εις ιερουσαλημ​
1Co 16:4 εαν δε η αξιον του καμε πορευεσθαι συν εμοι πορευσονται​
1Co 16:5 ελευσομαι δε προς υμας οταν μακεδονιαν διελθω μακεδονιαν γαρ διερχομαι​
1Co 16:6 προς υμας δε τυχον παραμενω η και παραχειμασω ινα υμεις με προπεμψητε ου εαν πορευωμαι​
1Co 16:7 ου θελω γαρ υμας αρτι εν παροδω ιδειν ελπιζω δε χρονον τινα επιμειναι προς υμας εαν ο κυριος επιτρεπη​
1Co 16:8 επιμενω δε εν εφεσω εως της πεντηκοστης​
1Co 16:9 θυρα γαρ μοι ανεωγεν μεγαλη και ενεργης και αντικειμενοι πολλοι​
1Co 16:10 εαν δε ελθη τιμοθεος βλεπετε ινα αφοβως γενηται προς υμας το γαρ εργον κυριου εργαζεται ως και εγω​
1Co 16:11 μη τις ουν αυτον εξουθενηση προπεμψατε δε αυτον εν ειρηνη ινα ελθη προς με εκδεχομαι γαρ αυτον μετα των αδελφων​

Can you please show me where in any of that passage (1 Cor. 16:1-11) are Christians gathering to break bread on the first day of the week in accordance with the AI's bald (and mistaken) assertion?

Perhaps you might consider this chapter (11, pages 57-61) on the matter, but if not, that is your prerogative though it would be contrary to scriptural command (Pro. 18:13,17) - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

As for Acts. 20:7, please see Chapter 11, pages 47-50 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I do hope you consider the actual timing of the feast of weeks (seven sabbaths (plural, "σαββατων", and Paul was speaking about the 'first' ("μιαν", "μια") week of those sabbaths)) in both, and their connection to Pentecost (1 Cor. 16:8; Act. 20:16) in both contexts, and the special events occurring at the timing of each instance.
 
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,614
1,667
Midwest
✟259,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"the Papacy", along with its Romanist adherents, itself, so claims this prerogative in numerous ways / actions. As for instance:

Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”; Columns 1823-1828,1830-1831, “Articulus VII”


"... [Latin] – 30. Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num. ..." - Prompta bibliotheca canonica, juridica, moralis, theologica
"... [English] 30. The Pope has such authority and power that he can also modify, clarify, or interpret divine laws, whether ..."​

Mistranslation. While "modificare" is where we get the English word "modify", modify is not its meaning in Latin. Every Latin dictionary I have consulted confirms this. For example, here's one.

mŏdĭfĭco, āre, 1, v. n. and a. [modusfacio].
  1. I. Neutr., to limit, set limits to: alicui in aliquā re intercedere aut modificare, Front. Ep. ad M. Caes. 4, 3 Mai.
  2. II. Act., to control, regulate: vitalis motus, Aug. de Music. 6, 17, 58.
    Pass. reflex., to observe due measure, keep within bounds, to be moderate: modificari in sumptibus, App. Doctr. Plat. p. 18, 37.
    Class. only in part. perf. mŏdĭfĭcātus, a, um, measured off, measured: verba modificata, Cic. Part. Or. 5, 17: membra modificata, id. de Or. 3, 48, 186: corporamodificata utriusque reiparticipatione, App. de Deo Socr. p. 47, 7.

    1. B. Melodious: luseiniarum querelae, Sid. Ep. 9, 2.
No "modify" here. Instead it talks about things like setting limits or regulating.

If memory serves right, the specific instance being cited by Lucius Ferraris was a case where a pope determined a particular marriage was legal (ironically, the "pope" who did this is regarded as an antipope). So all it is saying is that the pope has the ability to, as part of the ability to "clarify" and "interpret" divine law, say where it does and does not apply. Nothing about changing or modifying it.

Eusebius (b. about AD 260; d. before AD 341.) -
Patrologiae, Cursus Completus ... Series Graeca ... J. P. Migne ... Tomus XXIII. Eusebius Pamphili Caesariensis Episcopus (1857), col. 1171A
[Latin] “... in summa quot quot alia in Sabbato peragere sancitum erat, ea nos in Dominicam transtulimus, utpote quae magis idonea et propria, ac prima item sit et agmen ducat, et Judaico Sabbato pretiosior. ... Quare ut ea die conveniamus traditum nobis est, et ea quae in psalmo jubentur nobis exsequi praeceptum est; ...” - Patrologiae cursus completus, series graeca
The Christian sabbath, considered in its various aspects by Noel, Baptist Wriothesley, 1798-1873; Henderson, John, 1780-1867, page 264
[English] “... Eusebius ... all things whatever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath, these we [the catholic bishops] have transferred to the Lord’s Day [Catholic meaning ‘Sunday’], as more appropriately belonging to it, because it has a precedence, and is first in rank [of the week], and more honourable [Latin: ‘more precious’] than the Jewish Sabbath. ... It is delivered to us [Latin: ‘traditionally handed down to us’] that we should meet together on this day, and it is ordered that we should do those things announced in this Psalm.” – Comment on Ps. xcii. ...” - The Christian sabbath, considered in its various aspects : Noel, Baptist Wriothesley, 1798-1873 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Eusebius was bishop of Caesarea (nowadays Syria), so he was hardly a "Romanist adherent" nor was he saying anything about the pope or Rome here. I am also not sure of some of these brackets inserted. "traditum nobis est" is rendered as "traditionally handed down to us" but traditum simply means handed over, there is no need to add in traditionally. Though I am judging this by the Latin, which itself is a translation from the Greek, which is probably what Henderson is translating from. Regardless, Eusebius is clearly saying this was done prior to his time--hence the whole "delivered to us"--and he gives no credit to the papacy for it.

‘Pope’ Sylvester I (AD 314 – AD 335) - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Sylvester I

Beati Rabani Mauri, Fuldensis Abbatis et Moguntini Archiepiscopi, de Clericorum Institutione, ad Heistulphum Archiepiscopum; Libri Tres. (Anno 819.) Ad Fratres Fuldenses Epigramma Ejusdem; Liber Secundus, Caput XLVI. Column 361 (Left; PDF page 35)
[Latin] “... Similiter et feriae a fando dicuntur, ob quam causam Silvester papa primus apud Romanos constituit ut dierum nomina quae antea secundum nomina deorum suorum vocabant, id est, Solis, Lunae, Martis, Mercurii, Veneris, Saturni, feria deinceps vocarent, id est, prima feria, secunda feria, tertia feria, quarta feria, quinta feria, sexta feria, quia in principio Genesis scriptum est quod Deus per singulos dies dixerit : prima, Fiat Lux; secunda, Fiat firmamentum; tertia, Producat terra herbam virentem, similiter, etc. Sabbatum autem antiquo legis vocabulo vocare praecepit, et primam feriam diem Dominicam, eo quod Dominus in illa resurrexit. Statuit autem idem papa ut otium sabbati magis in diem Dominicam transferretur, ut ea die a terrenis operibus ad laudandum Deum vacaremus, justa illud quod scriptum est : Vacate et videte, quoniam ego sum Deus (Psal. XLV). ...” - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia....eistulphum_Archiepiscopum_Libri_Tres,_MLT.pdf
[Translated English] “... Pope Sylvester, first among the Romans, ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, “Let there be light”; on the second, “Let there be a firmament”; on the third, “Let the earth bring forth verdure”; etc. But he [‘Pope’ Sylvester I] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the “Lord's day,” because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the [counterfeit] Lord’s day [Sunday; the real “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10; Isa. 58:13 KJB) is the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7 ...” - Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath To Sunday?

The document you cite is also of very dubious historical value in regards to this. It appears to ascribe the term "Lord's Day" to Sylvester, despite the fact the term was in usage before he was even born. Even if we were to suppose it is merely saying he was the first to require people to use the term, we run into further problems. It clashes with the source you just mentioned; Eusebius says it was handed down (or delivered) to them, meaning it was from prior to his time, but then that doesn't work with Sylvester who was contemporary with Eusebius.

But even ignoring those factors, we run into the fact the document you cite, by your own admission, was from the 9th century. This is about 500 years after the events it describes, and it does not appear that anyone in the intervening period made any such claim about Sylvester doing this. With no one contemporary to Sylvester saying this, nor anyone until 500 years later saying it, the most plausible interpretation is that this is simply some much later legend that the author of this work uncritically bought into, particularly in light of the aforementioned problems with the claim.

The Roman Papacy claims to have changed God’s Law:

[Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Sunday]
“... yet we find St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. ... From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

It is not clear how this article constitutes "The Roman papacy" making such a claim given that the article neither credits this to the pope nor did the pope have anything to do with the writing of the Catholic Encyclopedia that I know of outside. Regardless, that very same article says "Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God."

(continued in next post)
 
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,614
1,667
Midwest
✟259,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
(continued from prior post)

The Catechism of the Council of Trent; On The Third Commandment; page 267
“... [page 267] But the [Roman Catholic] Church of God has in her wisdom ordained that the celebration of the Sabbath should be transferred to [counterfeit] “the Lord’s day:” …” - The catechism of the Council of Trent : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive and The catechism of the Council of Trent : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Catechism of the Council of Trent published by command of Pope Pius The Fifth, translated into English by the Rev. J. Donovon, Professor, &c Royal College, Maynooth; Baltimore: Published by Lucas Brothers. No. 170 Market Street; Printed by James Young, Baltimore; On The Third Commandment; page 264
“... [page 264] the Sabbath ... this commandment, ... is not fixed and unalterable, but is susceptible of change ...” - The catechism of the Council of Trent : Catholic Church : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The problem is, the same Catechism also says:

"The Apostles therefore resolved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord's day. St. John in the Apocalypse makes mention of the Lord's day; and the Apostle commands collections to be made on the first day of the week, that is, according to the interpretation of St. Chrysostom, on the Lord's day. From all this we learn that even then the Lord's day was kept holy in the Church."

C. F. Thomas (corrected from H. F.), Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons (in a reply, 1895):
“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [solemnity of the 7th day Sabbath to Sunday the first day of the week] was her act ... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” - Source Documentation

It's not quite clear where this letter comes from--various people quote from important information like the full text, the question asked, or who sent it is constantly left out. Regardless, another individual, Dudley Canright, would later send a letter to Cardinal Gibbons, which also was responded to by C.F. Thomas. In other words, the exact same individuals cited above. Like the two above instances, this is stated to have been an apostolic change:

Cardinal Gibbons comes next in authority. I wrote him with regard to when his Church began and when the day was changed. Here is the answer:

Baltimore, Md., July 1896
REV. D. M. CANRIGHT,

Dear Sir: In reply to your favor of the 20th inst., to his Eminence the Cardinal, I beg to say:

First. The Catholic Church dates back to the day when our Lord made St. Peter the visible head of the Church, and when St. Peter established, first at Antioch, then at Rome, the seat of his residence and jurisdiction.

In these days and those immediately following, we find traces of the beginning of the custom of the Sunday observance. You may refer to the Christian writers of that period. (Confer Ignatius ad Magnes, 9; Justin Martyr, 1, Apol. 59; Tertul., Apol. 16.) All these writers speak of the Sunday as the Lord's Day; no other more distinct trace has been preserved, and the mention which occurs in the following centuries rests on the fact of a previous custom more or less general.

C. T. THOMAS, Sect.

It will be seen that the Cardinal locates the introduction of the Lord's Day at the beginning of the Church with St. Peter.


Now of course you could claim that the claims of it being done by the apostles here and in the prior citations you offered are incorrect. But then that destroys their entire value as evidence of your claim.

The Faith of Millions, The Credentials of the Catholic Religion by John A. O’Brien, Ph.D., LL. D., The University of Notre Dame, with a Preface by His Eminence William Cardinal O'Connell, Archbishop of Boston and an Introduction by His Eminence Dennis Cardinal Dougherty, Archbishop of Philadelphia, Twelfth Edition, Revised and Enlarged; Printed in U.S.A. January 29, 1955; Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward A. Miller, Censor Librorum; Imprimatur: [Maltese Cross] John Francis Noll, D.D., Archbishop, Bishop of Fort Wayne, Copyright 1938 by John A. O’Brien; Published in U.S.A. by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, Ind. Pages 384,390:
[page 384] The attendance at Mass is the mark of a practical Catholic. ...​
... [page 390] she commands the worship of God and demands the attendance at Sunday Mass every Catholic worthy of the name.” - The faith of millions : the credentials of the Catholic religion : O'Brien, John A. (John Anthony), 1893-1980 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Annals of St. Joseph; Vol. XXXIII NOVEMBER, 1921. No. 9; page 135:
“... [page 135] A SUNDAY OBLIGATION – Everyone knows that Catholics are obliged to hear Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, unless ex-cused by a serious reason. To attend Mass on Sunday is one mark of a practical Catholic. ...” - Annals of St. Joseph, entered at the Postoffice at West De Pere as Second-Class Matter; Vol. XXXIII NOVEMBER, 1921. No. 9; page 135 (right hand column) - Annals of Saint Joseph
Dictionary of the Liturgy, Rev. Jovian P. Lang, OFM., Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1989, page 604:
“... [page 604] Distinctive of the Roman Catholic Church, Sunday Mass observance became a mark of a practicing Catholic.” - Dictionary of the liturgy : Lang, Jovian : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

These only say is that Catholics are supposed to attend mass on Sunday and appear to not have relevance to your assertion of the papacy changing anything.

Greek Orthodox (“Catholic”):
“... Sunday as a Mark of Christian [Catholic] Unity ... In order to fully appreciate Sunday as a mark of Christian [Catholic] unity we must expand our definition of unity.” [by Rev. Dr. Demetrios E. Tonias – Dean, Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral of New England] - http://www.ldausa.org/lda/sunday-as-a-mark-of-christian-unity/

This link leads me to an Indonesian gambling site. However, it is not clear to me what the quote is supposed to indicate. This person says nothing about the papacy changing anything, and you attribute it to a Greek Orthodox individual, which is hardly a "Romanist adherent". The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church--the Greek Orthodox are among the Eastern Orthodox--split up primarily because the Orthodox rejected the authority the papacy was claiming.

The Catholic Record of London, Saturday, September 1st, 1923 edition, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342, appearing on page 4, section “Sabbath Observance”, Column 2, with approval in Column 1
[Column 1] – Editor – Rev. James T. Foley, D.D. ... The CATHOLIC RECORD has been approved and recommended by Archbishops Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Ogdensburg, N.Y., and the Clergy throughout the Dominion.”, [Column 1] ...​
“... [Column 2] Now in the matter of Sabbath Observance the Protestant rule of Faith is utterly unable to explain the substitution of the Christian Sun-day for the Jewish Saturday. It has been changed. The Bible still teaches that the Sabbath or Satur-day should be kept holy. There is no authority in the New Testament for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday. Surely it is an import-ant matter. It stands there in the Bible as one of the Ten Command-ments of God. There is no author-ity in the Bible for abrogating this Commandment, or for transferring its observance to another day of the week. For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. “All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you,” said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. “He that heareth you heareth Me.” We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable ex-planation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third–Protestant Fourth–Commandment of God. ...” - The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
This is apparently being held up as authoritative on the grounds that the newspaper was approved and recommended by a whole lot of bishops. I find it very unlikely that the bishops in question from these various dioceses actually looked carefully at and approved of every article prior to publication; such would have been extremely difficult in 1923 for what appears to have been a weekly newspaper, as they would have had to mail the pre-publication newspapers to all of the bishops, have them weigh in and send back any corrections, and then print it. In fact, time travel would have been involved for all to do so for this article, given that several individuals ("late Apostolic Delegations to Canada") were not even alive. So we can hardly say that any particular single article was looked at and approved by all of these bishops. At most the local bishop of the area did.

Regardless, while one can find some Catholic writings--usually older ones--pulling this whole "Protestants can't explain Sunday with just the Bible" argument, the thing is that this is an argument (not a particularly good one, I don't think), not some kind of formal doctrinal position. It's also one other Catholics reject, who assert this can be found in the Bible. Regardless, note that this (and other similar arguments of the sort) does not say when the Catholic Church made any such change; they are merely focused on the question of whether this is found in the Bible or not. As shown above, the standard position is that this shift to Sunday started in the apostolic period, and to admit that in these sorts of arguments. And since the Roman Catholic Church says it is the church of the apostles, it is in that sense that the Roman Catholic Church claims to have made this change. If one is going to hold up the claim of the Roman Catholic Church of making such a change as evidence, they should accept the accompanying one of it tracing itself to the apostles... but this destroys the argument. And given the people who hold up these sorts of quotes invariably have a low opinion on the validity of the claims of the Catholic Church, why trust it so much on this one particular claim?
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,359
6,224
Minnesota
✟384,367.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It is Roman Catholic theology. That it is not Vatican originated is, again, non-sequitur since no Adventist ever claimed it was.
There have been billions of Catholics. Why go after the the expressions of individual Catholics, or even local parish publications, that because of human nature are going to occasionally misstate theology or flat out get it wrong, rather than the official Catholic theology?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Mistranslation. While "modificare" is where we get the English word "modify" ...
So it is not a mistranslation as you incorrectly assert, and turn around and disprove yourself in the next portion. You just proved it is where the English word "modify" comes from (ie. the Latin, "modificare"), and in evidence of this:

"... modify(v.) late 14c., modifien, "alter, amend, adjust, change the properties, form, or function of;" also "set limits, keep within the bounds of reason; choose a middle course," from Old French modifier (14c.), from Latin modificare "to limit, measure off, restrain," from modus "measure, manner" (from PIE root *med- "take appropriate measures") + combining form of facere "to make" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Related: Modified; modifying. ..." - Modify - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

So, thank you for confirming the actual translation from Latin into English (given from a Latin Roman speaking individual). Even Google translate confirms it when you simply plug in the Latin, into the translate box.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
There have been billions of Catholics. Why go after the the expressions of individual Catholics, or even local parish publications, that because of human nature are going to occasionally misstate theology or flat out get it wrong, rather than the official Catholic theology?
Your issue is a confusion. Individuals, as cited, are properly stating catholic theology in their official offices, as catholic cardinals, bishops, etc. So, it is not as if the individual, themselves are the Magisterial authority, in and of themselves, but they are, in their positions, as "cardinal" (a direct part of the hierarchial Magisterium itself, the conclave of cardinals), "bishops", and 'doctors' of the Roman Church, etc., correctly stating the Magisterial position/s. Those statements are not ever repudiated by the Magisterium as error, yet support those statements on numerous occasions. That you simply assert, "occasionally misstate theology or flat out get it wrong" is simply yourself trying to equate an occasional wrongness of others to the statements cited. Apples to oranges. Those are two differing things. You have not demonstrated that those citations are misstatements of Magisterial teaching, or are wrong in their theological positions. You are simply, and incorrectly, trying to equate them to such, when you have not made that connection, evidentially, at all.

Individual catholics are cited all of the time by catholics, even though those individuals are not the official Magisterium speaking, but accept those individual statements because, they do, indeed, represent Magisterial positions / statements already given. It is not the individual that is important, per se, but the positions stated, and whether they are officially in harmony with the Magisterial foundation.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Eusebius was bishop of Caesarea (nowadays Syria), ...
I never said Eusebius was a Roman, and I never directly said Eusebius was a "Romanist adherent". However, now that you brought this up, I will say that a person (such as Eusebius) can be of another city / country and still be a "romanist", as many are today, which live completely apart from "Rome", "Vatican", "Italy" or even "Europe". Being a "Romanist" is not to be of the city / country, but of the ideology originating from such. You are simply picking at nits and words to attempt to try to invalidate the citations, but are miserably failing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
But even ignoring those factors, we run into the fact the document you cite, by your own admission, was from the 9th century. This is about 500 years after the events it describes ...
So? Plutarch's life of Alexander III the Great was written some 400 years post mortem. It is taken as standard history, practically unquestioned. Who is the one claiming its authenticity? Rome. I am simply citing it as such under their assumption.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
The problem is, the same Catechism also says:

"The Apostles therefore resolved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord's day. St. John in the Apocalypse makes mention of the Lord's day; and the Apostle commands collections to be made on the first day of the week, that is, according to the interpretation of St. Chrysostom, on the Lord's day. From all this we learn that even then the Lord's day was kept holy in the Church."
"Catechism also says ...", please do not make me laugh too hard, as I am still recovering. That is a circular argument. Of course Rome needs a justification (never found in scripture, "The Apostles therefore resoved to consecrate the first day of the week to the divine worship, and called it the Lord's day") to justify its practices and statements regarding the 'first day of the week as the Lord's day'. It had to come up with an origin somewhere for it, so it made one up, put it into a Catechism (which changes over the years, and which, by the way, is not anywhere near the weight of the determinate Council of Trent itself in terms of Magisterial authority).
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Like the two above instances, this is stated to have been an apostolic change:

Cardinal Gibbons comes next in authority. I wrote him with regard to when his Church began and when the day was changed. Here is the answer:

Baltimore, Md., July 1896
REV. D. M. CANRIGHT,

Dear Sir: In reply to your favor of the 20th inst., to his Eminence the Cardinal, I beg to say:

First. The Catholic Church dates back to the day when our Lord made St. Peter the visible head of the Church, and when St. Peter established, first at Antioch, then at Rome, the seat of his residence and jurisdiction.

In these days and those immediately following, we find traces of the beginning of the custom of the Sunday observance. You may refer to the Christian writers of that period. (Confer Ignatius ad Magnes, 9; Justin Martyr, 1, Apol. 59; Tertul., Apol. 16.) All these writers speak of the Sunday as the Lord's Day; no other more distinct trace has been preserved, and the mention which occurs in the following centuries rests on the fact of a previous custom more or less general.

C. T. THOMAS, Sect.

It will be seen that the Cardinal locates the introduction of the Lord's Day at the beginning of the Church with St. Peter.


Now of course you could claim that the claims of it being done by the apostles here and in the prior citations you offered are incorrect. But then that destroys their entire value as evidence of your claim.
You just used the method you said had no Magisterial weight, contradicting not my position, but your own. You cited a single, isolated, individual (though granted a "cardinal") and assume it has Magisterial weight, in contradistinction to the other citation by the same individual. I am not saying he is contradictory in either statement. He is consistent in Romanist ideology.

Of course Romanists (such as Cardinal Gibbons) claim the apostles made the change somewhere in the "meridian dispensation" of the Apostolic times, but they also claim them (the Apostles) as the foundation for their church (Roman). The two, to them, are not two, but one and the same. Thus to Romanists, "the church (Roman)", by the "Apostles" in their 'dispensation' made the "change".

The nonsense of the Romanists positions on Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, et al. are already addressed in the book (which you obviously took no time to actually read in contradistinction to Pro. 18;13,17). - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

What people 'think' those persons said, are not actually what they said.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
This is apparently being held up as authoritative ...
No, it is being used as an additional evidence of the position of the Romanists. It doesn't need, of itself, any Magisterial approval. It simply has to be in harmony with already existing Magisterial teaching as the other citations also already demonstrate.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
JSRG, please, before going off attempting to save the Romanist, try slowing down a bit, and actually consider the differing position (like read the book). It will save you much embarrassment in the future. Just advice. Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,359
6,224
Minnesota
✟384,367.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Your issue is a confusion. Individuals, as cited, are properly stating catholic theology in their official offices, as catholic cardinals, bishops, etc. So, it is not as if the individual, themselves are the Magisterial authority, in and of themselves, but they are, in their positions, as "cardinal" (a direct part of the hierarchial Magisterium itself, the conclave of cardinals), "bishops", and 'doctors' of the Roman Church, etc., correctly stating the Magisterial position/s. Those statements are not ever repudiated by the Magisterium as error, yet support those statements on numerous occasions. That you simply assert, "occasionally misstate theology or flat out get it wrong" is simply yourself trying to equate an occasional wrongness of others to the statements cited. Apples to oranges. Those are two differing things. You have not demonstrated that those citations are misstatements of Magisterial teaching, or are wrong in their theological positions. You are simply, and incorrectly, trying to equate them to such, when you have not made that connection, evidentially, at all.

Individual catholics are cited all of the time by catholics, even though those individuals are not the official Magisterium speaking, but accept those individual statements because, they do, indeed, represent Magisterial positions / statements already given. It is not the individual that is important, per se, but the positions stated, and whether they are officially in harmony with the Magisterial foundation.
"Magisterium" has several meanings, teaching authority and teaching and as to the hierachy you speak of, the pope and the bishops. The pope and the bishops are not perfect teachers, and you seem to have a misconception that they are constantly monitoring all Catholics looking to "repudiate" any teaching that is not perfectly said. That is even an impossible task today, let alone back when communications took a long time. Their job is to teach to the best of their ability. My point was only that Catholic theology will on occasion be misstated by Catholics who put out publications or have some authority. As to my question as to why you go after individual Catholics instead of official Catholic teaching (such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church) the answer is obvious.
As to citations, there have already been flaws pointed out in SDA material that has been offered in this thread. To give an example, it is not a proper teaching to say that the Church is above the Bible. While the Catholic Church prayerfully chose the books of the Bible, and has been given authority to teach God's Word, since Jesus Christ heads the Catholic Church it is not accurate to say God's Word is above Christ's Church or vice versa. If any people are being misled by improper wording a correction would be warranted.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
... To give an example, it is not a proper teaching to say that the Church is above the Bible. ...
Yes, it was / is a "proper teaching", in the polemic in which the editors of the Catholic paper stated it. Do not misunderstand the editors, and you will not misunderstand the polemic in which the statement was given. By the way, who are you, and in what authoritative capacity within the Roman hierarchy, over that of those editors (Editors - Rev. James T. Foley, D. D. and Thomas Coffey, LL. D.), with the sanction of the Archbishops (Falconio and Sbaretti, late Apostolic Delegates to Canada, the Archbishops of Toronto, Kingston, Ottawa, and St. Boniface, the Bishops of London, Hamilton, Peterborough and Odgensburg, N. Y., and the clergy throughout the Dominion.) can you say it isn't? They said what they said in their official capacity, with sanctions, in a Catholic paper, referring to "proper teaching" thereof. They were arguing against another position and meant what they said in their actual knowledge of proper Catholic teaching. That you simply say otherwise, years later and after the fact, and in no official authoritative capacity, doesn't mean much. You are assuming you are correct, and they incorrect. You didn't demonstrate either position, just assumed it and tried to justify yourself over them, your own theologians and religious leaders of their respective domains.
 
Upvote 0

Blueprints

Active Member
Mar 8, 2026
144
186
El Dorado
✟10,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
The pope and the bishops are not perfect teachers ...
Ooops ... that goes against the very Catholic Canon Law. You invoked "teachers", and as such the teaching capacity itself.

CODE OF CANON LAW; BOOK VII. PROCESSES; Part I. TRIALS IN GENERAL; Can. 1404, 1406:

“... Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one. ...”​
“... Can. 1406 §1. If the prescript of can. 1404 is violated, the acts and decisions are considered as not to have been placed.​
- §2. In the cases mentioned in can. 1405, the incompetence of other judges is absolute. ...” - Code of Canon Law - Book VII - Processes - Part I. (Cann. 1400-1500): Trials in general.​

It goes against the many teachings accepted by the Papacy:

Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”; Columns 1823-1828,1830-1831, “Articulus VII”

"... [Latin] – 16. Papa tantae est dignitatis et potestatis, ut faciat unum et idem tribunal cum Christo. – 17. Adeo ut quidquid facit Papa, ab ore Dei videatur procedere. ..."​
"... [Latin] – 38. Quantum ad Papae infallibilitatem, potest Papa considerari dupliciter: primo, quo ad se, ut persona privata privatusque doctor; secundo, quo ad alios, ut persona publica, et magister universa-lis Ecclesiae, eam ex cathedra docens, proponendo quid credendum, quidve agendum sit. – 39. Loqui ex cathedra quid sit? – 40. Loqui ex cathedra non arctatur praecise ad ea, quae Papa proponit ut a Deo revelata, et a nobis credenda fide theologica, sed insuper extenditur ad caetera quae proponit seu tenenda, seu servanda. ..." - Prompta bibliotheca canonica, juridica, moralis, theologica
"... [English] - 16. The Pope is of such dignity and power that he makes one and the same seat with Christ. - 17. So much so that whatever the Pope does seems to proceed from the mouth of God. ..."

"... [English] - 38. As for the infallibility of the Pope, the Pope can be considered in two ways: first, in regard to himself, as a private person and a private teacher; secondly, to others, as a public figure and teacher of the whole Church, teaching it from the chair, proposing what should be believed and what should be done. – 39. What is speaking from the chair? - 40. To speak from the chair is not limited precisely to those things which the Pope proposes as revealed by God, and to be believed by us with theological faith, but it is extended in addition to the rest which he proposes either to hold or to observe. ..."​
 
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,614
1,667
Midwest
✟259,505.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So it is not a mistranslation as you incorrectly assert, and turn around and disprove yourself in the next portion. You just proved it is where the English word "modify" comes from (ie. the Latin, "modificare"), and in evidence of this:

"... modify(v.) late 14c., modifien, "alter, amend, adjust, change the properties, form, or function of;" also "set limits, keep within the bounds of reason; choose a middle course," from Old French modifier (14c.), from Latin modificare "to limit, measure off, restrain," from modus "measure, manner" (from PIE root *med- "take appropriate measures") + combining form of facere "to make" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Related: Modified; modifying. ..." - Modify - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

So, thank you for confirming the actual translation from Latin into English (given from a Latin Roman speaking individual). Even Google translate confirms it when you simply plug in the Latin, into the translate box.

My point was that although modificare is where we get the English word modify, the word modify in English has a different meaning than modificare in Latin, so to translate it as modify is incorrect. Shifts in the meanings of words happen plenty of times, over time and also when switching languages. The dictionary you offer is an English one, not a Latin one. In fact, even your own source admits that the Latin meaning was different, for it says "from Latin modificare "to limit, measure off, restrain"". It is noting that modificare does not mean to modify, but rather to limit, measure off, or restrain, even if the English word means to modify.

English has a lot of words that come from Latin, but a number of them do not have the same meaning as in Latin. Here are some examples:
Villain: In English, this means a bad person. But the Latin word that it comes from, villanus, means villager.
Egregious: In English, this means really bad. But the Latin word it comes from, egregius, means the exact opposite--really good.
Peculiar: In English, this means weird or special. But the Latin word it comes from, peculiaris, means private or personal.

So the fact modify has a particular meaning in English does not mean that it has the same meaning in Latin. Which is why I pointed to Latin dictionaries to show the meaning was different. As for Google Translate, automated translations can easily make errors, especially given Latin is likely not getting nearly as much attention as more commonly spoken languages.

You just used the method you said had no Magisterial weight, contradicting not my position, but your own. You cited a single, isolated, individual (though granted a "cardinal") and assume it has Magisterial weight, in contradistinction to the other citation by the same individual. I am not saying he is contradictory in either statement. He is consistent in Romanist ideology.

I cited that "single, isolated, individual" because you were the one who cited him to begin with.

Of course Romanists (such as Cardinal Gibbons) claim the apostles made the change somewhere in the "meridian dispensation" of the Apostolic times, but they also claim them (the Apostles) as the foundation for their church (Roman). The two, to them, are not two, but one and the same. Thus to Romanists, "the church (Roman)", by the "Apostles" in their 'dispensation' made the "change".

Precisely, which is why trying to cite him as evidence of the Roman Catholic Church, much less the papacy, making any change doesn't make sense, because the "Catholic Church" he refers to is the apostles, as he himself said and which you just acknowledged. Obviously you disagree with his assertion the Roman Catholic Church is the same as the apostles, as any non-Catholic does, but that is the position he espouses and it does not aid in the argument you were making, as is explained in some more detail here.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
14,359
6,224
Minnesota
✟384,367.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Ooops ... that goes against the very Catholic Canon Law. You invoked "teachers", and as such the teaching capacity itself.

CODE OF CANON LAW; BOOK VII. PROCESSES; Part I. TRIALS IN GENERAL; Can. 1404, 1406:

“... Can. 1404 The First See is judged by no one. ...”​
“... Can. 1406 §1. If the prescript of can. 1404 is violated, the acts and decisions are considered as not to have been placed.​
- §2. In the cases mentioned in can. 1405, the incompetence of other judges is absolute. ...” - Code of Canon Law - Book VII - Processes - Part I. (Cann. 1400-1500): Trials in general.​
I think your zeal for anti-Catholicism had led to your error in characterization of my comment. You are misapplying the trial system, where for example, a bishop may be judged on a specific offense, to the the Christian understanding of the nature of man. The pope is a man, a sinner, who by nature is imperfect.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0