Adventist view on Hell/Hades the Lake of Fire

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

ViaCrucis said:
It's hard to call the ultimate state of the wicked "life" at all, in any meaningful sense. The damned exist, but to say they have life, let alone eternal life, fundamentally misunderstands what eternal life means in any meaningful biblical sense.

The wicked experience a state of second death--conscious, aware, but alive? hardly. They exist in a state of deliberate rejection of life.

No, the wicked are separated from God. We find what happens if we read what it says in Revelation at the end of the thousand years of the Millennium..

Revelation 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The Wicked are "devoured" by the fire from God after the thousand year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven, all those who have not received the mark of the beast or its image as we see.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now the reason the saints are in reigning in heaven is they will also be involved in an important phase of His governing—judgment. Judging the unrighteous who have died, the devil, and the fallen angels. This is what Paul meant when he said that the saints will judge the world and even angels..
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

During the thousand years of the Millennium, the saints reign in heaven between the first and second resurrections, the first being of the saints at the Second Coming.
Revelation 20:5-6
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We see the second one of the wicked at the end of the thousand years, "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

At the time of the thousand years of the Millennium, the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but still inhabited by Satan and his angels. We see Jeramiah describing what it looks like..
Jeremiah 4:23-26
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

And the clearing of the earth in Zephaniah..
Zephaniah 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

This is how Satan is bound as there is no one to temp, much like the earth before Adam and Eve " it was without form, and void", a bottomless pit.
Revelation 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. This is what is meant by "destroy both soul and body in hell", the person can die the death of all men, but the Second Death is the separation from God.

The Great White Throne judgement is the courtroom scene after the second resurrection of the dead, all the wicked in all aspects, in the graves or the oceans, so that the whole universe may see that God is just, and the wicked are separated from God at the Second Death.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Their punishment like the example given on Sodom and Gomorrha, a eternal separation from God which will not be reversed or allowed to come back, thus its results are "eternal".

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Why are you linking me to a thread about Roman Catholic beliefs in a forum I can’t post in? I am neither Seventh Day Adventist nor Roman Catholic.

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East have professed since antiquity a belief that the Mother of God was taken up bodily into Heaven. This is unrelated to the Roman Catholic use of the title “Queen of Heaven,” although I will say in defense of my Roman Catholic friends that the use of that title is in no way Pagan and is unconnected to Ishtar worship contra your post; the hymn Ave Regina Caeli (“Hail Queen of Heaven” dates from the 12th century, well after the Orthodox/Catholic schism in 1054) and while the Roman church made a number of mistakes in that era, and the Orthodox do not refer to the Mother of God as “Queen of Heaven,” I quite like the hymn in question, and I like it specifically because it denies the Pagans use of the term (just as the celebration of the Meeting of the Lord, also known as Candlemas, on Februray 2nd had the effect of shutting down the Pagan rite of the Lupercalia, which was a huge win for Christianity in fifth century Rome, since young Roman men running around the city au naturel was at the time one of the last and most visible and most visibly grotesque Pagan rites to survive. The feast wasn’t scheduled to shut down the Lupercalia, but the fact that it had that effect is something worth celebrating. Likewise, the coincidence of the hymn Ave Regina Caeli has the advantage of denying modern day neo-Pagans use of that title (alas we can’t prevent them from lying, as they do about various things such as other Christian holidays which were only observed by neo-Pagans since the late 19th and 20th century, who developed their own false histories to account for it; the most grevious example and the worst red herring of this sort concerning “Ostara”, which is risible since most Christians do not even refer to the Feast of the Resurrection as “Easter”, that name being used in only a few Germanic-language lands, notably excluding the Netherlands, so good for the Dutch (they call it Passen, like the Orthodox, who call it Pascha, the Greek form of the Hebrew word Pesach as in Passover).

Regarding the assumption of the Mother of God, this doctrine is substantially older and predates the hymn Ave Caeli Regina by approximately 1100 years. It is attested in such Patristic writings as the Panarion of St. Epiphanios of Cyprus, one of my favorite early church fathers, writing in 350 AD; St. Epiphanius was an important Church father from the immediate post-Nicene era who strongly opposed Arianism (the denial of the deity of Christ), Manichaeism and other heresies that denied his humanity, and who was also instrumental in exposing severe problems with the theological speculation of Origen, and an expert in ancient Paganism; he carefully documented all Pagan sects and all Jewish sects in addition to the various Christian heresies in the Panarion (the title literally means “Medicine Chest” but would be most accurately translated as “First Aid Kit” and is an expansion of the second century Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons, and was later quoted by St. John of Damascus in the 700s AD, who used it as the starting point for an expanded encyclopedia of cults which added new cults which had appeared since the repose of St. Epiphanius, most notably the Nestorians, Tritheists, Iconoclasts and Muslims. As such the work is directly comparable to and the spiritual of modern heresiological indices such as the popular “Kingdom of the Cults.”

There are older records than St. Epiphanius of course, I’m merely mentioning his account of her being taken up “Like Elijah” because I am such a fan of the Panarion for its thoroughness and its sense of humor.

I would also note it is incorrect to refer to St. Mary as “the Mother of Christ” in a manner that denies her status as Theotokos as it has the effect of denying the status of Christ as God incarnate, fully God and fully man, His humanity and divinity united without change, confusion, separation or division, this hypostatic union being an essential aspect of how He saved us.

Look carefully and you will find the origin of this goddess, the Queen of Heaven. The Queen of Heaven is a title associated with the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess Ishtar, also known as Ashtoreth. She was a goddess of fertility and was worshiped through offerings and rituals aimed at seeking blessings for fertility and prosperity.

https://learn.openchristian.education/blog/sangwa/a-babylonian-goddess-became-virgin-mary

The worship of the Queen of Heaven is mentioned in the Bible, particularly in the book of Jeremiah, where it is condemned as it led to the Israelites' suffering. Here is from the Bible Hub, "The term "Queen of Heaven" appears in the Bible primarily in the context of the Old Testament, specifically in the book of Jeremiah. It refers to a pagan goddess worshiped by some Israelites, which was strongly condemned by the prophets. The worship of the Queen of Heaven is associated with idolatry and apostasy, as it represents a departure from the worship of Yahweh, the God of Israel....

Historical and Cultural Context:

The identity of the Queen of Heaven is not explicitly detailed in the biblical text, but she is often associated with various ancient Near Eastern goddesses such as Ishtar (Inanna) of Mesopotamia, Astarte of the Canaanites, or Asherah. These deities were often linked to fertility, love, and war, and their worship included rituals that were contrary to the worship of Yahweh.

The worship of the Queen of Heaven was part of a broader pattern of syncretism, where the Israelites adopted the religious practices of surrounding nations. This was a recurring issue throughout the history of Israel, leading to repeated calls from the prophets for repentance and a return to exclusive worship of Yahweh.

Theological Implications:

From a theological perspective, the worship of the Queen of Heaven represents a significant breach of the first commandment, which demands exclusive allegiance to God (Exodus 20:3). It underscores the danger of idolatry and the human tendency to seek security and prosperity through means other than God. The prophets, including Jeremiah, consistently warned that such practices would lead to divine judgment and national disaster.

The narrative surrounding the Queen of Heaven serves as a cautionary tale about the consequences of turning away from God and the importance of faithfulness to His covenant. It highlights the need for discernment and the rejection of practices that compromise the purity of worship owed to God alone."

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

The Liturgist said:
This is also very true. Death is a state of mind more than an absence of normal biological function. A man can be alive yet dead. St. Ignatius of Antioch was born even as lions chewed through his flesh, vivified through the life-giving shedding of his blood in the Coliseum, which is why he demanded the Church in Rome not attempt to rescue him. “Birth pangs are upon me!” he implored them.

Or as it is recorded in the Holy Gospel, in the words of Christ our True God:

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

No, we find many text that says what happens. Here is Paul speaking on the fire that the wicked will suffer and expands even more on the reason..
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Now Paul tells us what the punishment is in the next verse.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The punishment of the wicked is not a 'state of mind' it is a seperation from God from which there will be no resurrection or hope of life.

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell /the realm of the dead cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah2:2

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell /the realm of the dead cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah2:2

Excellent verse, so lets look closer at Jonah 2:1-6..
Jonah 2:1-6
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Even Jonah's stay in the whale's belly is described by him as "for ever." Yet he came out when it spit him on the beach and Jonah went to Nineveh. Its a bit confusion for those who are unfamiliar with other uses of this phrase 'forever' in scripture, , but a comparison of verses in both Old and New Testaments reveal that the words "for ever" in the vast number of time are used in the Bible are in reference to something that has already come to an end. In other words, "for ever" does not always mean "without end."

Lets check out Exodus 21:
Exodus 21:1-6
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

In Exodus 21, the conditions are laid down concerning the law of servitude. If a servant chose to continue serving the master he loved rather than his freedom when it came due, then his ear was to be pierced with an awl and the Scripture declares, "He shall serve him for ever." Verse 6. But how long would that servant serve his human master? Only as long as he lived, of course. So the words "for ever" did not mean without end.

Now lets take at look at 1 Samuel 1:22..
1 Samuel 1:22 :
22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.

We read that Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever."

Now lets read 1 Samuel 1:28..
1 Samuel 1:28:
28 Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord. And he worshipped the Lord there.

Yet here in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." The original meaning of the term "for ever" indicates an indefinite period of time. Generally it defines the period of time in which something can continue to exist under the circumstances prevailing. Now lets look at a text everyone learned from their youth..
Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

So you may say well what about the saints being forever with God, but remember they have received the gift of immortality. Their life now measures with the life of God which is eternity. Immortality means "not subject to death." The words "for ever" used in reference to them could only mean "without end," because they are immortal subjects already. But when "for ever" is used to describe the wicked, we are talking about mortal men and women who can die and pay the wages of sin. Their "for ever" is only as long as their mortal nature can survive in the fire which punishes them, which clearly will not let you last long if you've seen a cremation.

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
Excellent verse, so lets look closer at Jonah 2:1-6..
Jonah 2:1-6
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Even Jonah's stay in the whale's belly is described by him as "for ever." Yet he came out when it spit him on the beach and Jonah went to Nineveh. Its a bit confusion for those who are unfamiliar with other uses of this phrase 'forever' in scripture, , but a comparison of verses in both Old and New Testaments reveal that the words "for ever" in the vast number of time are used in the Bible are in reference to something that has already come to an end. In other words, "for ever" does not always mean "without end."

Lets check out Exodus 21:
Exodus 21:1-6
1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

In Exodus 21, the conditions are laid down concerning the law of servitude. If a servant chose to continue serving the master he loved rather than his freedom when it came due, then his ear was to be pierced with an awl and the Scripture declares, "He shall serve him for ever." Verse 6. But how long would that servant serve his human master? Only as long as he lived, of course. So the words "for ever" did not mean without end.

Now lets take at look at 1 Samuel 1:22..
1 Samuel 1:22 :
22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide for ever.

We read that Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever."

Now lets read 1 Samuel 1:28..
1 Samuel 1:28:
28 Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord. And he worshipped the Lord there.

Yet here in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." The original meaning of the term "for ever" indicates an indefinite period of time. Generally it defines the period of time in which something can continue to exist under the circumstances prevailing. Now lets look at a text everyone learned from their youth..
Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

So you may say what about the saints being forever with God for the saints, but remember they have received the gift of immortality. Their life now measures with the life of God which is eternity. Immortality means "not subject to death." The words "for ever" used in reference to them could only mean "without end," because they are immortal subjects already. But when "for ever" is used to describe the wicked, we are talking about mortal men and women who can die and pay the wages of sin. Their "for ever" is only as long as their mortal nature can survive in the fire which punishes them, which clearly will not let you last long if you've seen a cremation.

Sorry, Im not one for long posts. But I don't think Jonah could have been physically alive for three days whilst being in the belly of a fish. An d the plain word states, he cried out to God from hell/the realm of the dead

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
Sorry, Im not one for long posts. But I don't think Jonah could have been physically alive for three days whilst being in the belly of a fish. An d the plain word states, he cried out to God from hell/the realm of the dead

So was he burning in 'hell/the realm of the dead', of course not. But if one is in a dark watery prison of the belly of a whale, it would be hell. I come from the islands and I would never want to be in that kind of hell.

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
So was he burning in 'hell/the realm of the dead', of course not. But if one is in a dark watery prison of the belly of a whale, it would be hell. I come from the islands and I would never want to be in that kind of hell.

So you think Jonah remained physically alive in the belly of a fish for three days? I would think, medically speaking that would not be possible. As for your first part, it depends on whether you believe in a literal lake of fire. Either way, I will go with what the plain word states

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
So you think Jonah remained physically alive in the belly of a fish for three days? I would think, medically speaking that would not be possible. As for your first part, it depends on whether you believe in a literal lake of fire. Either way, I will go with what the plain word states

Was he alive when he was spit up on the beach, the Bible explains itself.

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
Was he alive when he was spit up on the beach, the Bible explains itself.

For sure then he was. As was Lazarus when he walked out of the tomb

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

Hell is the lake of fire where the Wicked will suffer the separation from God at the Second Death and perish, versus the Saints who get eternal life with Christ. And the devil and his angels are included in that "Wicked") and we are given when it occurs..

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
For sure then he was. As was Lazarus when he walked out of the tomb

Was Jonah resurrected like Lazarus, no my brother. Read carefully your Bible and ask God to send the Holy Spirit to guide you in its understanding.

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
Was Jonah resurrected like Lazarus, no my brother. Read carefully your Bible and ask God to send the Holy Spirit to guide you in its understanding.

I did read carefully my bible, Jonah cried out to God from hell/the realm of the dead. Sola scripture?

under grace1 · Jun 11, 2026

When Jesus died at calvary he went and proclaimed the message to people who had previously died. There wouldnt be any point proclaiming a message to anyone unable to hear it

reddogs · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
I did read carefully my bible, Jonah cried out to God from hell/the realm of the dead. Sola scripture?

The Hebrew Sheol is translated to this and causes confusion with the word 'Hell', when properly it should be the grave.

shol {sheh-ole'}; from 07592; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:--grave, hell, pit.

Strong's Concordance

Strong's exhaustive concordance of the King James Bible with Hebrew and greek lexicons

strongsconcordance.org

The Liturgist · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
Look carefully and you will find the origin of this goddess, the Queen of Heaven. The Queen of Heaven is a title associated with the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess Ishtar, also known as Ashtoreth.

This argument, aside from being irrelevant to me personally (since I am not Roman Catholic) is also logically fallacious and entirely invalid.

The two logical fallacies you are engaging in are the equivocation fallacy (which is where one makes an argument based on a word meaning two different things; since Ishtar was a sex and fertility goddess and the Blessed Virgin Mary very obviously is not, the argument accusing Catholics of Ishtar worship fails for the same logical reason that it would be illogical to criticize an airline pilot for his lack of knowledge of harbor conditions (or indeed to criticize a pilot in one body of water for a lack of knowledge of pilotage such as the location of reefs, tidal conditions et cetera in another body of water). For that matter I suppose we could get on the case of NASA space shuttle pilots since very frequently the actual landing was performed by the Commander with the pilot acting in a monitoring role rather than vice versa. In all cases we would be engaging in the equivalence fallacy.

The more severe fallacy is called “the genetic fallacy” and has nothing to do with the human genome or genetics, but rather refers to the older meaning of the word, in the sense of origins - it is the fallacy that because a word originally meant X, people using that word must still mean what it originally meant. To which I would note this would create rather an awkward problem for many Adventists who refer to the Sabbath for clarity of communications as Saturday since Saturday is of course the Pagan name for that day (which Rome suppressed in the Latin language but was unable to do so in the English language); obviously no one would accuse Christians who use the word “Saturday” of engaging in Saturn-worship.

The idea that Roman Catholics are engaing in Ishtar worship is quite literally absurd, and astonishingly offensive. But let’s not take my word for it, I propose we ask them - @Xeno.of.athens @Michie @chevyontheriver @Valletta - would I be correct in assuming you regard the attempted insinuation that the use of the title “Queen of Heaven” in the beautiful Gregorian chant “Ave Regina Caelorum” (“Hail heavenly Queen”) has anything to do with Ishtar? Because I find it offensive, as I have sung that hymn with my Roman Catholic friends in veneration of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

Also the Adventist argument ignores a very elegant bit of Roman Catholic theology, which I found out about through use of Google’s AI (in conformity with the site rules I am declaring the following text came from Google Gemini):

“The Biblical Context of the Catholic Title

Roman Catholics do not pull the title out of ancient paganism; rather, they derive it from biblical theology regarding the Davidic Monarchy.

In the ancient Kingdom of Israel, the queen was not the king's wife (since kings had many wives), but rather the king's mother. This office was known as the Gebirah (the "Great Lady" or Queen Mother). As seen with King Solomon and his mother Bathsheba in 1 Kings 2:19-20, the Queen Mother held a throne at the king's right hand and acted as a powerful advocate for the people.
Because Christians believe Jesus is the ultimate King of the Line of David, his mother, Mary, naturally fulfills the prophetic role of the Gebirah. Since Jesus' kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven, His mother is honored as the Queen Mother of Heaven. Furthermore, Catholics point to Revelation 12:1, which describes "a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars," giving birth to the Messiah, as a scriptural image of this heavenly queenship.”

Assuming that Gemini is correct, which I regard as a safe assumption, this is theologically elegant and appropriate to the person of our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Unfortunately I suspect that no matter how emphatically we declare this we will still be falsely accused of engaging in pagan worship by some, despite the fact that we in no respect, either Orthodox or Catholic, or Protestants who venerate the Theotokos such as Martin Luther, had any interest or intent to worship anyone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and in particular no interest in worshipping a pagan fertility goddess, and the criticism is therefore not only logically fallacious and historically inaccurate but grossly offensive. Thus while we Eastern Orthodox do not refer to the Theotokos as the Queen of Heaven in our hymns, this is not for dogmatic reasons, and I see no dogmatic issue with referring to her such, so I will continue to sing “Hail Heavenly Queen” in solidarity with my Roman Catholic friends.

I should add we might use that hymn in Western Rite Orthodoxy, I don’t know, to be clear, but I do know several other Western hymns such as Agnus Dei and Gloria In Excelsis Deo are used in the Western Rite (I particularly like that our Western Rite uses the hymn Agnus Dei, which was included in the mass in defiance of the Byzantine Church during a low period in our history, in the aftermath of the Quinisext Council, where some Patriarchs of Constantinople tried to impose that council on the Church of Rome and tried to argue that its prohibition against iconographical depictions of Christ as a lamb precluded the use of language which is absolutely scriptural and found in the Apocalypse, thus Agnus Dei was properly added to the Roman Mass as a means of telling us off, and with justification. This was around the same time the future Pope St. Gregory the Great, who is venerated with great importance by the Eastern Orthodox was disputing one of our Patriarchs who was making the embarassingly Docetic claim that in His resurrection Christ’s body lacked physicality, which is so wrong it makes me want to cry - fortunately St. Gregory won the argument and teaching was precluded among the Orthodox. He then composed the Presanctified Liturgy you use on Good Friday and that we use on weekdays in Lent and Holy Week and introduced the Gregorian system of chant among other elegant liturgical reforms, and also saved the people of Rome from starving after the civil government collapsed, and also sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to England to evangelize the Angles, a Nordic tribe from the region of Denmark known as Anglia, who had conquered Brittania (and would be followed by the Jutes from Jutland, also in Denmark, and the Saxons, hence the phrase Anglo-Saxon, then the actual Danes from Copenhagen, Zeeland and adjacent islands, who founded Jarvik, now known as York, which I have been blessed to visit (actually I visited York and Canterbury on the same day in 2002).

The Liturgist · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
The narrative surrounding the Queen of Heaven serves as a cautionary tale about the consequences of turning away from God and the importance of faithfulness to His covenant. It highlights the need for discernment and the rejection of practices that compromise the purity of worship owed to God alone."

Roman Catholic worship, llke that of other traditional Christians who vnerate Mary, such as the Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and Confessional Lutherans and High Church Anglicans, is directed to God alone. This is also the case with Orthodox worship (and as I said, we do not, to my knowledge, use the phrase “Queen of Heaven” but apparently you missed that part. That said, as I outlined in my previous post, because your argument against the Roman Catholic approach is fallacious, I will absolutely continue to sing “Hail Heavenly Queen” (in the original Latin, Ave Regina Caelorum) when I visit my Catholic friends, particularly the traditional Latin mass community in Camarillo California, which is part of the diocese and is thus entirely canonically regular, and which is a lovely community; they manage to reliably fill their parish, due to the intense beauty of the traditional Latin mass and Gregorian chant.

So while the title is not for the Orthodox anything approaching dogmatic (Unlike Theotokos, which is a required and neccesary title due to the reality of the Incarnation of God, a point conceded even by John Calvin and also the Assyrians, who due to antidicomarianism on the part of the former and lingering residual Nestorian influence on the part of the latter, are uncomfortable with using the title in worship, and yet in the case of the Assyrians they venerate the the Blessed Virgin Mary with great intensity and the local Assyrian parish is named for her, despite the fact that they often refer to her using the problematic title “Christotokos” - but at least they now acknowledge Theotokos is correct, so that’s fine; in essentials unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things charity), I endorse the use of the phrase “Queen of Heaven” in Western hymnography..

The Liturgist · Jun 11, 2026

under grace1 said:
When Jesus died at calvary he went and proclaimed the message to people who had previously died. There wouldnt be any point proclaiming a message to anyone unable to hear it

This is true, and is the Patristic doctrine.

The Liturgist · Jun 11, 2026

reddogs said:
The punishment of the wicked is not a 'state of mind'

Another red herring or strawman fallacy - I never described the eschatological status of the damned as being a “state of mind.” Rather, their hatred separates them from God.

But we must be very careful about calling them “the wicked” since while technically accurate, we must also not presume for a moment we are deserving of our own salvation; our salvation is a gift from Christ our True God, who made a perfect, all-sufficient sacrifice for our sins, offering Himself as a ransom to free us from the wages of sin which are death, giving us hope of the Resurrection.

Valletta · Jun 11, 2026

The Liturgist said:
The idea that Roman Catholics are engaing in Ishtar worship is quite literally absurd, and astonishingly offensive. But let’s not take my word for it, I propose we ask them - @Xeno.of.athens @Michie @chevyontheriver @Valletta - would I be correct in assuming you regard the attempted insinuation that the use of the title “Queen of Heaven” in the beautiful Gregorian chant “Ave Regina Caelorum” (“Hail heavenly Queen”) has anything to do with Ishtar? Because I find it offensive, as I have sung that hymn with my Roman Catholic friends in veneration of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

You, are correct. Such accusations are absurd and offensive, and sadden me. So much effort to find fault with others.

Adventist view on Hell/Hades the Lake of Fire

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.​

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.