The First Four Commandments and the Worship Issue of the End Time

Capbook2 said:

The "new moon" is different from "full moon," in Hebrew and in meaning.
"New moon" bears Strong#H2320, in Hebrew "חדשׁ chôdesh" again, defined by Bible Lexicon as - first day of the month and etc.
While "full moon" is with Strong#H3677, in Hebrew "כּסה / כּסא kese' / keseh" defined as - full moon.

Biblical Significance: The Full Moon occurs in the middle of the month and was the required starting date for major festivals. For example, Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles always begin on the 15th day of the month, during a full moon (Leviticus 23).

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Thus, "new moon" is every the first day of the month, while "full moon" occurs in the middle of the month. A big difference.

Psa 81:3 BlowH8628 the trumpetH7782 at the R1newH2320 moonH2320, At the fullH3677 moonH3677, on our R2feastH2282 dayH3117.

H2320
חדשׁ chôdesh
BDB Definition:
1) the new moon, month, monthly
1a) the first day of the month

H3677
כּסה / כּסא kese' / keseh
BDB Definition:
1) full moon

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Ok you are answering your own query. From
First of the month to first of the month is from one month to the next, a moon cycle. What’s the issue?

Hentenza said:

Ok you are answering your own query. From
First of the month to first of the month is from one month to the next, a moon cycle. What’s the issue?

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The issue is about your interpretation of Isa 66:23's "from Sabbath to Sabbath" worship is just for a week.
As the Sabbath is the "seventh day", and there are four to five seventh day of the month, just like Paul who teach and preach every seventh day Sabbath, the same observance of Sabbath in the new heaven and new earth that all mankind will worship God Hentenza.

Isa 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

Capbook2 said:

The issue is about your interpretation of Isa 66:23's "from Sabbath to Sabbath" worship is just for a week.
As the Sabbath is the "seventh day", and there are four to five seventh day of the month, just like Paul who teach and preach every seventh day Sabbath, the same observance of Sabbath in the new heaven and new earth that all mankind will worship God Hentenza.

Isa 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.

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Isaiah is saying that in the New Jerusalem we will be worshiping God from week to week and month to month. In other words, we will be worshipping God every day. We will not be observing the Jewish sabbath, one day.

Freth said:

Ok, let's look at what you said in post #16.



Under the law is being condemned by the law because of living in sin; breaking the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Consider this...

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

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If someone puts himself under the law, then he is obligated to keep all of it, perfectly, 24/7, or come under its curse (and the law is more than 600 commandments, not merely ten).

The verse from Proverbs was written to those who were under the law, not those in the New Covenant, which did not exist at that time.

The law was nailed to the cross, in Christ. We have been discharged from the law, having died to it in Christ; so that we serve in the newness of the Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter.

Col. 2:13,14 (W.E.B.)
13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Rom. 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

David1701 said:

If someone puts himself under the law, then he is obligated to keep all of it, perfectly, 24/7, or come under its curse (and the law is more than 600 commandments, not merely ten).

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If one is breaking the law of God, it puts them under the law or guilty before God as sinners

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Its not a pass to break God's holy law and sin, its quite the opposite

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Doing what God Himself asked if we love Him will never be wrong Exo20:6 John14:15 its why Paul taught keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1Cor7:19

David1701 said:

The law was nailed to the cross, in Christ. We have been discharged from the law, having died to it in Christ; so that we serve in the newness of the Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter.

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I guess God never received this memo considering this is one of the last verses in the Bible before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and no verse after this counters it.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Its what the Bible tells us are those who overcome sin and submit to God and are in a covenant with God having His laws written in our hearts and minds.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

David1701 said:

Col. 2:13,14 (W.E.B.)
13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

Click to expand...

Who handwrote the ordinances that were contrary and against us? Please use the bible to show what Paul is referencing because its not the Ten Commandments that was written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 that is holy, just and good Rom7:12 and perfect for converting our souls Psa 19:7 as if there is ever a time not worshipping our Creator Exo20:11 is good but worshipping only Him Rev 14:7 is bad.

David1701 said:

Rom. 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you would be joined to another, to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were through the law, worked in our members to bring forth fruit to death.
6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Old Covenant was external- the law of God written on tablets of stone, but God moved those laws in our hearts 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 and He is the one enabling us to keep His commandments if we allow Him to.

If you read the very next verse Paul is not promoting sinning and dishonoring God by breaking His commandments.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Considering the path where sin leads...

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Heb 10:26 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Paul is contrasting serving the law of God instead of the law of sin

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those who won't subject themselves to the law of God is serving the law of sin.

Rom 8: 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

If one would just think about it for a moment.

God said in His written and spoken Testimony Exo31:18 if you love Me do this Exo20:6 Jesus who is God repeated it John14:15 how can love to God and doing what He said is love to Him and our neighbor, ever be bad considering God is love. How can only worshipping God ever be bad or not stealing from our neighbor. I just do not understand why people fight against how God says to love Him.

SabbathBlessings said:

If one is breaking the law of God, it puts them under the law or guilty before God as sinners

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Its not a pass to break God's holy law and sin, its quite the opposite

...

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One can only break the law if he is under it. Christians are not under law, but under grace.

Rom. 3:9-19 refers to the unsaved, in their natural, sinful state, not to Christians, who are new creations in Christ, having been born again.

Rom. 3:9-19 (E.M.T.V.)
9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 Just as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one.
11 There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God.
12 All have turned aside; together they became unprofitable; there is not one doing kindness, there is not so much as one.
13 Their throat is an opened grave; with their tongues they deceived; the poison of asps is under their lips;
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Ruin and misery are in their ways;
17 and the way of peace they did not know.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that as many things as the law says, it speaks to those under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be held accountable to God.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

SabbathBlessings said:

If one is breaking the law of God, it puts them under the law or guilty before God as sinners

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Its not a pass to break God's holy law and sin, its quite the opposite

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Doing what God Himself asked if we love Him will never be wrong Exo20:6 John14:15 its why Paul taught keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1Cor7:19

I guess God never received this memo considering this is one of the last verses in the Bible before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and no verse after this counters it.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Its what the Bible tells us are those who overcome sin and submit to God and are in a covenant with God having His laws written in our hearts and minds.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Who handwrote the ordinances that were contrary and against us? Please use the bible to show what Paul is referencing because its not the Ten Commandments that was written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 that is holy, just and good Rom7:12 and perfect for converting our souls Psa 19:7 as if there is ever a time not worshipping our Creator Exo20:11 is good but worshipping only Him Rev 14:7 is bad.


Yes, the Old Covenant was external- the law of God written on tablets of stone, but God moved those laws in our hearts 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 and He is the one enabling us to keep His commandments if we allow Him to.

If you read the very next verse Paul is not promoting sinning and dishonoring God by breaking His commandments.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Considering the path where sin leads...

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Heb 10:26 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Paul is contrasting serving the law of God instead of the law of sin

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Those who won't subject themselves to the law of God is serving the law of sin.

Rom 8: 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

If one would just think about it for a moment.

God said in His written and spoken Testimony Exo31:18 if you love Me do this Exo20:6 Jesus who is God repeated it John14:15 how can love to God and doing what He said is love to Him and our neighbor, ever be bad considering God is love. How can only worshipping God ever be bad or not stealing from our neighbor. I just do not understand why people fight against how God says to love Him.

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I bet Paul is turning in his grave by your twisting of his words. Paul is not under the law and he does not promote the law.

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

David1701 said:

One can only break the law if he is under it. Christians are not under law, but under grace.

Rom. 3:9-19 refers to the unsaved, in their natural, sinful state, not to Christians, who are new creations in Christ, having been born again.

Rom. 3:9-19 (E.M.T.V.)
9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 Just as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one.
11 There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God.
12 All have turned aside; together they became unprofitable; there is not one doing kindness, there is not so much as one.
13 Their throat is an opened grave; with their tongues they deceived; the poison of asps is under their lips;
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Ruin and misery are in their ways;
17 and the way of peace they did not know.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that as many things as the law says, it speaks to those under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be held accountable to God.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

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Under grace does not mean sinning 1John3:4 and breaking the law of God. James2:10-12

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

In your view if someone is a new creation in God are they breaking the law of God to only worship Him and can steal from their neighbor and is that your idea of a new creation in Christ? What Paul said not keeping makes one an enmity to God and what Jesus said depart from Me.

Are you saying those in Christ do not follow what Christ says? Mat5:19-30 John 15:4-10 Mat15:3-14 John14:15? And Christians are not God's saints??

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

SabbathBlessings said:

Under grace does not mean sinning 1John3:4 and breaking the law of God. James2:10-12

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

In your view if someone is a new creation in God are they breaking the law of God to only worship Him and can steal from their neighbor and is that your idea of a new creation in Christ? What Paul said not keeping makes one an enmity to God and what Jesus said depart from Me.

Are you saying those in Christ do not follow what Christ says? Mat5:19-30 John 15:4-10 Mat15:3-14 John14:15? And Christians are not God's saints??

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

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Nice straw man...

Of course being under grace is not a licence to sin. That is not the point.

The New Covenant commandments of God are on a different basis from the law of Moses. They are from a loving Father, to his loving children: not from a Judge, who will exact legal penalties for every infraction.

David1701 said:

Nice straw man...

Of course being under grace is not a licence to sin. That is not the point.

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That is exactly the point when sin is breaking the law of God. 1John3:4 James2:10-12 Rom7:7

David1701 said:

The New Covenant commandments of God are on a different basis from the law of Moses. They are from a loving Father, to his loving children: not from a Judge, who will exact legal penalties for every infraction.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone spoke of the law of Moses. God defined His own commandments- He personally wrote them with His own finger Exo31:18 He numbered them- Ten Deut 4:13 Exo34:28 He claimed them as a unit of Ten as His commandments Exo20:6 and each commandment has His name in them, not Moses, on how we love God. Exo 20:1-11 and after God of the entire Universe divinely spoke them and wrote them He added no more. Deut5:22 There was not much more God could have done to make this more clear.

The New Covenant spoken in Jeremiah days Jer31:33 all Ten Commandments was repeated and God made a clear distinction it was what God spoke to them, not Moses Jer7:22-23. The New Covenant is God's laws going from written on tablets of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Jer31:33 Heb8:10 The location changed, not the words as God promised Psa 89:34 Mat5:18-19 not that we can worship other gods now or steal from our neighbor and are doing God's will. Psa 40:8. If one feels they can tell God what are His and not His commandments after He wrote them out and claimed them in His own written Testimony Exo31:18 as His Exo20:6 and added no more to them Deut5:22 but we as the creation, are going to tell God, the Creator, He's wrong on what are His commandments- that's not a conversation I would want to have when I meet Him come Judgement day, we do have free will.

After God spoke His commandments this was said:

Exo 20:20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.”

Fearing God and keeping His commandments should be our all

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

No one can add or subtract from what God does- our only response should be to fear Him and obey

Ecc 3:14 I know that whatever God does,
It shall be forever.
Nothing can be added to it,
And nothing taken from it.
God does it, that men should fear before Him.

Why we are being called back to in these last days, because our fear of God has been through mans traditions and not being faithful to what God said.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We have become a society who fears men and not God.

Isa 29:13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,

Which makes God's Word void. Fearing men over fearing God and keeping His commandments.

Mat 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”[a] 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

These are all decisions we will each have to make. Jesus who is God told mankind how we should live Mat4:4

I guess we can agree to disagree, I wish you well.

SabbathBlessings said:

That is exactly the point when sin is breaking the law of God. 1John3:4 James2:10-12 Rom7:7

I don't think anyone spoke of the law of Moses. God defined His own commandments- He personally wrote them with His own finger Exo31:18 He numbered them- Ten Deut 4:13 Exo34:28 He claimed them as a unit of Ten as His commandments Exo20:6 and each commandment has His name in them, not Moses, on how we love God. Exo 20:1-11 and after God of the entire Universe divinely spoke them and wrote them He added no more. Deut5:22 There was not much more God could have done to make this more clear.

The New Covenant spoken in Jeremiah days Jer31:33 all Ten Commandments was repeated and God made a clear distinction it was what God spoke to them, not Moses Jer7:22-23. The New Covenant is God's laws going from written on tablets of stone to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Jer31:33 Heb8:10 The location changed, not the words as God promised Psa 89:34 Mat5:18-19 not that we can worship other gods now or steal from our neighbor and are doing God's will. Psa 40:8. If one feels they can tell God what are His and not His commandments after He wrote them out and claimed them in His own written Testimony Exo31:18 as His Exo20:6 and added no more to them Deut5:22 but we as the creation, are going to tell God, the Creator, He's wrong on what are His commandments- that's not a conversation I would want to have when I meet Him come Judgement day, we do have free will.

After God spoke His commandments this was said:

Exo 20:20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.”

Fearing God and keeping His commandments should be our all

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

No one can add or subtract from what God does- our only response should be to fear Him and obey

Ecc 3:14 I know that whatever God does,
It shall be forever.
Nothing can be added to it,
And nothing taken from it.
God does it, that men should fear before Him.

Why we are being called back to in these last days, because our fear of God has been through mans traditions and not being faithful to what God said.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We have become a society who fears men and not God.

Isa 29:13 Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,

Which makes God's Word void. Fearing men over fearing God and keeping His commandments.

Mat 15:3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”[a] 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

These are all decisions we will each have to make. Jesus who is God told mankind how we should live Mat4:4

I guess we can agree to disagree, I wish you well.

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Try to live by law if you like; but, salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.

David1701 said:

Try to live by law if you like; but, salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.

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And keep going just a little further...

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Exo32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

If you love Me, keep My commandments John14:15

SabbathBlessings said:

And keep going just a little further...

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Exo32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;

Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

If you love Me, keep My commandments John14:15

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Good works are not of the law - they are of faith (and the law is not of faith).

David1701 said:

Good works are not of the law -

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Well, my faith is in what He said about His works, how could the God of love, not produce good works?

Exo32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;

It’s God’s works through His Spirit on our human heart that produces change. No longer a harden heart not subjecting ourselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8, but a heart of flesh, that has God's laws living in our hearts and minds so we fear God and not sin against Him Exo20:20 through our great love to Him John14:15 and His power enabling us to change John14:16-18 John15:4-10

David1701 said:

they are of faith (and the law is not of faith).

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Faith does not void the law of God it establishes it.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

It’s really a nonsensical argument- I have faith in you God, but not your works, not what you teach, not how you tell us how to love you or live.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

I guess we shall see soon enough.

Hentenza said:

Isaiah is saying that in the New Jerusalem we will be worshiping God from week to week and month to month. In other words, we will be worshipping God every day. We will not be observing the Jewish sabbath, one day.

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Yes, we can worship God everyday, but God clearly separate the seventh day, He sanctified, blessed and rested it, and called as "the Sabbath of the Lord our God." (Ex 20:10) Which He commanded to His people.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

David1701 said:

Good works are not of the law - they are of faith (and the law is not of faith).

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Yes, by God's grace we are saved through our faith, but faith must be shown by good works, we do good works not to be saved but by being already saved.
Is keeping the Law not good works? The result of being saved?

We had to keep in mind that the "saints" who keep the Commandments of God, through context will be spared from the lake of fire and second death. (Rev 14:12, Rev 20:9,10,14)

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Capbook2 said:

Yes, we can worship God everyday, but God clearly separate the seventh day, He sanctified, blessed and rested it, and called as "the Sabbath of the Lord our God." (Ex 20:10) Which He commanded to His people.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

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The book of Exodus was written by Moses for Israel around the 15th century BCE. The Sabbath command was given to Israel as part of the Mosaic law.

1. There is no command for anyone to keep the sabbath in Gen. 2. The rest is also different as God’s rest in Gen. 2 is spiritual and Israel’s rest in Exodus is physical.

2. From creation to Moses no one kept the sabbath. The first mention of the Jewish sabbath is not until Exodus 16 as God introduces the sabbath to Moses and Moses to the Jewish people.

3. The law given at Sinai was given to Israel and then only to the then present Israel not to their fathers. (Deut. 5).

Look, I don’t judge anyone that wants to keep the sabbath but I will debate and disagree with anyone that makes it a requirement and claims that a person is sinning if they don’t keep it. So if you are from the first group then go in peace but if you are from the second group then we are never going to agree.

SabbathBlessings said:

Well, my faith is in what He said about His works, how could the God of love, not produce good works?

Exo32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Psa 78:7 That they may set their hope in God, And not forget the works of God, But keep His commandments;

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I was referring to our works, not God's.

The law is certainly righteous; but, sinful man is the problem - he won't and can't keep it.

Rom. 8:3,4 (E.M.T.V.)
3 For what was impossible for the law to do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The righteous requirement (singular) of the law is love. This requirement is fulfilled in Christians, in the New Covenant, by the Holy Spirit working in us to will and to do of God's good pleasure, NOT by us trying to keep the law.

It’s God’s works through His Spirit on our human heart that produces change. No longer a harden heart not subjecting ourselves to the law of God Rom8:7-8, but a heart of flesh, that has God's laws living in our hearts and minds so we fear God and not sin against Him Exo20:20 through our great love to Him John14:15 and His power enabling us to change John14:16-18 John15:4-10

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Yes and no...

Yes, it is God's work in us, by the Holy Spirit, that gives us a soft heart and enables us to do God's will; however, that will is not for us to them go and try to keep the legal commands of the law. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit in what we say and do; and, in so doing, we keep the requirement (singular) of the law.

Do you have to ask yourself if it's right to steal? No, of course not. Why? Is it because you remind yourself of "Thou shalt not steal.", or, is it because your soft heart has no desire to steal and the Holy Spirit will never lead you to steal?

Trying to live by law (which results in a Rom. 7 kind of frustration) and being led by the Holy Spirit are different ways of life. One is the dead letter of the law, which, while righteous in itself, gives no power to keep it; in fact, it stirs up sin. The other is a living relationship with the Lord, in which he leads us to do what he wants, without us having to keep going back to the law and trying to work out for ourselves what is best to do in any situation.

Faith does not void the law of God it establishes it.

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Yes; but, the law is not of faith; and we are to live by faith.

In the New Covenant, for whom is the law?

1 Tim. 1:8-10 (KJV)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

In other words, Christians are to use the law, to show unsaved sinners that they are sinners, who are guilty before God and in need of salvation, as a precursor to preaching the gospel.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

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Of course the law is not made void; but, it must be used lawfully - it should be applied to unbelieving sinners, to make them feel their guilt and need.

It’s really a nonsensical argument- I have faith in you God, but not your works, not what you teach, not how you tell us how to love you or live.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

I guess we shall see soon enough.

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The Holy Spirit will never lead you to sin. Relationship with God, not mere rules, however righteous they are, is the basis for the New Covenant.

Capbook2 said:

Yes, by God's grace we are saved through our faith, but faith must be shown by good works, we do good works not to be saved but by being already saved.

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Amen!

Is keeping the Law not good works? The result of being saved?

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Argh! No!

Do you need the ten commandments, written on your wall, to remind you not to sin? Do you have a relationship with the Lord, by the Holy Spirit? If you have the latter, then you don't need the former.

We had to keep in mind that the "saints" who keep the Commandments of God, through context will be spared from the lake of fire and second death. (Rev 14:12, Rev 20:9,10,14)

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All born again Christians live lives characterised by righteousness and love (although still imperfect), as a result of God working in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

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The "saints" (i.e. sanctified ones - those whom God has saved) do indeed persevere in the faith and are characterised by keeping God's New Covenant commands.

David1701 said:

I was referring to our works, not God's.

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That's the difference. People depend on their works and not God's. I am suggesting to flip this and depend on God's. God personally wrote them out for us Exo31:18 Exo32:16 Deut4:13 why people choose to accept their own works of righteousness instead of depending on God's Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 which His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142 its the foundation of God's throne Psa89:14 doesn't make a lot of sense when we are to look to God for everything, not ourselves.

David1701 said:

The law is certainly righteous; but, sinful man is the problem - he won't and can't keep it.

Rom. 8:3,4 (E.M.T.V.)
3 For what was impossible for the law to do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The righteous requirement (singular) of the law is love. This requirement is fulfilled in Christians, in the New Covenant, by the Holy Spirit working in us to will and to do of God's good pleasure, NOT by us trying to keep the law.

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Yes, and God said If - so its condition - sadly not everyone does- If you love Me, keep My commandments

Why the New Covenant has God's laws plural written in the heart of His people in a covenant with Him.

If someone truly loves God would they do what God said to do if we love Him? How can love fulfill the law of God if we are not doing what God said is love to Him and our neighbor? That's nonsensical.

David1701 said:

Yes and no...

Yes, it is God's work in us, by the Holy Spirit, that gives us a soft heart and enables us to do God's will; however, that will is not for us to them go and try to keep the legal commands of the law. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit in what we say and do; and, in so doing, we keep the requirement (singular) of the law.

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So are we to disregard what Jesus taught because it doesn't agree with our teachings?

Whats the condition of receiving the Spirit...why this promise starts with an If. The commandments plural.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

David1701 said:

Do you have to ask yourself if it's right to steal? No, of course not. Why? Is it because you remind yourself of "Thou shalt not steal.", or, is it because your soft heart has no desire to steal and the Holy Spirit will never lead you to steal?

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This is what Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

What you seem to be suggesting is bypassing God. What God asked for us if we love Him and asked that we fear Him and do not sin Exo20:20 but disregard that and go by what we feel is right or wrong or what we feel is sin and not what God said.

This is essentially making one their own god, because it says whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16 so if we are removing God from His commandments but instead pick and choose the ones that feel right to us, where does that leave God? Who then are we serving.

David1701 said:

Trying to live by law (which results in a Rom. 7 kind of frustration) and being led by the Holy Spirit are different ways of life. One is the dead letter of the law, which, while righteous in itself, gives no power to keep it; in fact, it stirs up sin. The other is a living relationship with the Lord, in which he leads us to do what he wants, without us having to keep going back to the law and trying to work out for ourselves what is best to do in any situation.

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Why do you think the Holy Spirit who wrote the Ten Commandments and placed them in our hearts and minds is in conflict to what He placed there?

Sadly, rejecting the law of God is not guided by the Holy Spirit, but walking in flesh sin.

Rom 7: 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God

So if we are arguing against keeping the law of God, we may want to take a step back and look at what we are really arguing against and Who. Exo31:18 Deut4:13 Exo20:6

David1701 said:

Yes; but, the law is not of faith; and we are to live by faith.

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Paul speaks of more than one law obviously -

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified
Rom 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

If we stick with what God said and do not put anyone else before Him- we would not make the mistake of confusing these laws.

Why Paul taught circumcision is nothing uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1Cor7:19 because not all laws are the same.

When we start doing what the apostles and prophets did- place God above everyone and everything the Bible becomes much more clearer.

David1701 said:

In the New Covenant, for whom is the law?

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Those who are in a covenant with God. Not everyone is, because they do not like His terms Jer 31:33 Heb8:10 and reject what God placed in their hearts and minds Rom8:7-8

David1701 said:

1 Tim. 1:8-10 (KJV)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

In other words, Christians are to use the law, to show unsaved sinners that they are sinners, who are guilty before God and in need of salvation, as a precursor to preaching the gospel.

Of course the law is not made void; but, it must be used lawfully - it should be applied to unbelieving sinners, to make them feel their guilt and need.

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So once saved we can start breaking the law of God and worship other gods or murder our neighbor? Where do you find these verses? Is there anyone without sin? Paul said the law is for sinners, I am not going to declare myself sinless, if one wishes to do so we no longer need God's righteousness and they have their own righteousness that's certainly a choice. The Bible teaches God will be our Judge. I believe we can overcome sin, but Jesus speaks of a people who believes of Him but does not do His will at His Second Coming Mat7:21-23

According to Scripture those who overcome are the ones who keep God's commandments. Rev14:12 Rev22:14

David1701 said:

The Holy Spirit will never lead you to sin. Relationship with God, not mere rules, however righteous they are, is the basis for the New Covenant.

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So according to you the New Covenant doesn't have God's Laws or rules when God said it did? And sin is not breaking God's rules when we are told it is. Exo20:1-20 1John3:4 James 2:10-12

Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their [a]hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

If we really study Jeremiah when the New Covenant was spoken of and the condition of God's people we would not come to the conclusion that it doesn't include God's rules - this is the same reasoning of the people and the result was not being in a covenant with God and its not what we should want for ourselves. Fearing men Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14 over God Exo20:20 Ecc12:13-14 Rev14:6-12 never worked out for one person in Scripture, I am not sure why people think following in the same example of disobedience will work again Heb4:11