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Adventist view on the Mark of the Beast at the end time

reddogs

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It is a sign that says that you are carrying the seal of the Adversary as opposed to the seal of God. We see Gods seal in many verses and it clearly tells us what its about..
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritof promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So what is the Mark of the Beast that puts the seal of the Adversary in your mind (forehead) or in your hand (actions), Lets take a look at the prophecy, so lets start with Revelation 14: 9-11.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here we as prophecydescribes the terrible fate of those who receive the Mark of the Beast. In contrast, Revelation 14: 12 describes those who have the seal of God and stand victorious with Jesus at the end.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14: 12.

In Revelation 7: 1-3 an angel ascends from the east with the seal of the living God. This angel comes down from heaven and puts a seal on people's foreheads. Two classes are represented: Those who receive the mark of the beast and eventually receive the plagues. Those who keep the commandments of God, who are sealed by the angel, and do not receive the plagues. Scripture explains if we just look.
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. Isaiah 8: 16.

Therefore, the seal of God is contained in His law.
The Bible teaches that the final issue will be over the seal of God as opposed to the mark of the beast.

The Mark of the Beast is his seal of authority, and that would be "a rule or order that it is obligatory to observe" which he has passed. This would include the Sabbath along with all the other changes he has made that he claims he has the authority to do so.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: Daniel 7:25

So it is a change of Gods seal of authority which are his laws which have been with us since creation and were written out on the tablets of stone, by the Beast with false laws or rules of divine observance that are his seal of authority. We are told to follow Gods truth not traditions or doctrines of men, and his commandments stand as Jesus said:

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

And we are warned of the danger of following traditions of man..

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words: . . . beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col. 2:4-8.

Let no man beguile you of your reward. . . . Why as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances . . . after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col. 2:18-22.

So who tries to entice and lead you away with these traditions of man?
 
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reddogs

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he Bible has many places were it shows that people are marked to signify sin or show who they follow, so it has precedence:

Job10:14 -If I sin, then You mark me, And will not acquit me of my iniquity.

So here Job is saying we are marked by Yahweh if we sin.

We read in Ps 37:37 -Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright; For the future of that man is peace.

Here we see the blameless and upright man is also marked.

Next in Eze 9:4 -and the Lord said to him, 'Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.'

Again a mark on the forehead by Yahweh who morn over the evil being done.

The following are verses that refer to a seal of God.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Note that the previous verses seem to indicate a spiritual seal, not a physical seal. The following verses seem to be more of a physical seal

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


The seal of a king gives his name, shows or declares his claim to authority, and thirdly, the region of his rule. Henry VIII, King of Britain, Wales and Scotland for example. How is the seal used or what is the purpose of a King's seal:

Dan 6:15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.
Dan 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.
Dan 6:17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.
So the seal of the King is a statement that his decree is not to be changed, not to be changed by anyone.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


Note that the sign of circumcision is also a seal of righteousness. A sign and a seal are synonymous.

Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Neh 9:38 And because of all this we make a sure covenant, and write it; and our princes, Levites, and priests, seal unto it.
...
Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


To depart from iniquity is to keep God's law. The disciples of God, those who call on the name of Christ, are sealed with His law.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them
.

Ezek 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

So the law seals you and the sabbath is a sign of God, or His seal, representing His authority as Creator. So you can see where this is going, God shows his seal of his authority in his commandments especially with the declaration of his name, his claim to authority, and the region of his rule in the following.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Notice that we can find the seal of God in verse 11.
The name given: the Lord
His title: Creator
His domain: heaven and earth to include all inhabitants
 
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reddogs

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Now we have Revelation to unveil and show us more understanding on this...
Revelation 1:1-3
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him to shew His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John, who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein; for the time is at hand."

These first verses set the scene for the book of Revelation. The word "Revelation" or "Apocalypse" means to reveal and the book of Revelation is meant to reveal vital issues to the New Testament Church and the end-time church in particular.

The notion that the book of Revelation is a sealed book or one not intended for man to understand goes against that. Moreover, it must be understood the book is written "to show His servants" those things which they needed to know in order to come to terms with events as they would unfold. To understand the book of Revelation therefore requires an intimate knowledge of God and His word as well as the promised guidance by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit was promised to those who obey God and He would lead God's people into all truth.
Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now here are verses that refer to the mark of the beast and his characteristics:

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


So both the Beast and its Image are worshiped.
Notice how many times worship is mentioned in connection with the Mark of the Beast so it has importance.

We glorify and worship God in following his commandments and specifically worship is embodied in the forth. So Gods seal of authority are his commandments or law, the Mark of the Beast shows his authority with false laws and times he has changed, the verses also make clear he is worshiped and that those who follow him will receive his mark.

Now here is the real eyeopener that I never thought I would find, this is from a Baptist website, not only are Gods seal of authority the commandments set aside but then they go the next step and to justify ignoring the Gods truths destroy the Sabbath:

"According to the Bible, Christians do not have to keep the Sabbath, neither on Saturday nor on Sunday; for them every day is holy. Early Christians met, preached and worshipped daily. Sunday is not the Christian Sabbath, but it has a special meaning to believers (Acts 20:7; 1Cor. 16:2; etc.), since Jesus Christ rose from the dead on Sunday (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2.9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1), and the first out-pouring of the Holy Ghost was on Pentecost, Sunday (Acts 2:1,4). So Christians set aside Sunday as a day of rest and worship in honor of the resurrection."

The Beast is clearly identified as political and religious power who will have a SIGN; an identifying label, a MARK, which it will seek to impose on all who will submit to its will. It will not be a "secret" sign, or mark, but has to be obvious, outward, easily recognized sign, which the whole system wears to show its allegiance!

The "little horn" of Daniel 7:8, which "has a mouth speaking great things," and which will "think to change TIMES and LAWS" is the key so you must look down through the centuries, to see what has changed Gods commandments! Have God's laws been changed; has anyone said to worship man in the place of God, or made and worshiped idols even though God says not to, or taken Gods name and blasphemed it, or abolished His divinely-appointed Sabbath and replaced his holy days with pagan festivals.

So anyone who looks can see this was part of sun worship; and point to the change of God's weekly Sabbaths for the first day or Sunday, the day of the sun, and putting the pagan festivals upon millions of unknowing believers with the substitute and holidays of ths sun festival. For centuries, Christians were brutally martyred; tortured, burnt alive, killed for refusing to accept the changes to the Commandments, and clinging, instead, to God's holy Sabbath, and His truth.

There were wars against them or they were relentlessly hunted down and slain if they tried to follow Gods laws! This persecution had to do with times and laws The whole reason for them being put upon would be for observing the Gods laws or his seal of authority, the Mark of the Beast would be its false edicts which was put up against them by decree, backed up by force of arms, enforced the changing of "times and laws" on those who, fearful of their very lives, would submit. Well, now we see it coming through another way, through saying we just need a day to rest the environment or a day off for the workers, any which way, but it all comes down to the seal of the adversary, the Mark of the Beast.
 
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reddogs

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Now if you take the time to look, you cannot but connect all the changes or introduction of false "times" such as the worship of festivals that are not scriptural or from God but from another source.

Listen to what God says in Amos 5:21 I hate, I despise your feast days, And I do not savor your sacred assemblies. 22 Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings. 23 Take away from Me the noise of your songs, For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. 24 But let justice run down like water, And righteousness like a mighty stream. 25 Did you offer Me sacrifices and offerings In the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26 You also carried Sikkuth your king And Chiun, your idols, The star of your gods, Which you made for yourselves. 27 Therefore I will send you into captivity beyond Damascus, Says the Lord, whose name is the God of hosts.

Do a study on Sikkuth and Chiun. They are Molech and Ishtar, and Israel was warned about worshiping these Babylonian gods of the false eastern pagan religions. Thus we can see the festival days of paganism creeping in and being substituted for what God had given them to celebrate and worship HIM........

The introduction of Pagan holidays into the church began about the fourth century A.D. with the Roman Emperor Constantine, in order to consolidate his rule, incorporated the Pagan holidays and festivals into the church ritual, attracting the Pagans, but he gave the holidays and festivals new "Christian" names and identities - Easter was a celebration of the spring equinox for the pagans. In order to introduce the feast of Easter into the calendar, the dates were changed by Dionysius, so that Easter was celebrated a month later than the original Jewish Pasch feast. This was to bring it in line with the ancient eastern festival dates for this feast, and the new date for Easter was then introduced by force. On this day, the ancients lit fires and baked cakes to the queen of heaven with the ancient eastern religions even-sided cross in a circle representing the sun as decoration on these round cakes. To this day, the hot cross bun is an Easter delicacy. The egg is also a pagan symbol representing rebirth, and decorated eggs were traditionally eaten on this feast day. Ancient Israel was constantly warned against these pagan day from the ancient Babylonian religion. In Jeremiah 7:18, we read:
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough to make cakes to the queen of heaven; and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

The ecclesiastical historian, Socrates, attributes the introduction of the festival of Easter into the church to the perpetuation of an old usage, 'just as many other customs have been established.' (Hist. Eccl. V. 22)
The Easter fire is lit on top of mountains...this is a custom of pagan origin.

Now whats bad is that it actually led to the word being changed from its original meaning, to "Easter". The Greek word that the King James Version translates as “Easter” is actually the word “Pascha” (Hebrew: פסח—Pesach) which means “Passover”. It was during an annual Passover celebration that Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem. Here is the text in question:

Acts 12:4 King James Version

"4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

We find it was translated incorrectly because the bible scholars preconceived ideas led them to this. If we look at the text from previous versions we find it was correctly translated...

Acts 12:4 1599 Geneva Bible

"4 [a]And when he had caught him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to be kept, intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people."

Acts 12:4 Wycliffe Bible

"4 And when he had caught Peter, he sent him into prison; and betook him to four quaternions of knights, to keep him, and would after pask bring him forth to the people [willing after pask to bring him forth to the people]."

And others..

Acts 12:4 Complete Jewish Bible

"4 so when Herod seized him, he threw him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each, with the intention of bringing him to public trial after Pesach."

Acts 12:4 Young's Literal Translation

"4 whom also having seized, he did put in prison, having delivered [him] to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after the passover to bring him forth to the people."

So how could this happen, why would such learned men change something from one meaning to another, simple, because of their preconceived ideas. You see, it has taken time, but Greek philosophy and Gnosticism had been picked up and in Rome the old beliefs and festivals were still followed by the Romans and many Christian and leaders didnt see a problem with it. One of the first disputes arose as the bishop of Rome allowed the celebration of the Pasch or Passover to continue till the following Sunday so Christians could also celebrate Spring Equinox festival as they had done before. Now the danger of allowing the Christians to join in pagan solstice celebrations was overlooked as the new pagan 'converts' joined the church and swelled the numbers under the bishop of Rome. But other Christian leaders saw the danger of worship according to the old pagan festivals and tried to stop it in what came to be known as Paschal/Easter controversies. The first recorded such controversy came to be known as the Quartodeciman controversy.

Eusebius of Caesarea (Church History, V, xxiii) wrote:
"A question of no small importance arose at that time [i.e. the time of Pope Victor I, about A.D. 190]. The dioceses of all Asia, according to an ancient tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon [of Nisan], on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should always be observed as the feast of the life-giving pasch (epi tes tou soteriou Pascha heortes), contending that the fast ought to end on that day, whatever day of the week it might happen to be. However it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this point, as they observed the practice, which from Apostolic tradition has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the Resurrection of our Saviour." So the bishop of Rome began the practice of fixing the celebration of Passover for Christians on Sunday and it spread through the old areas of the Empire. Polycarp the disciple of John the Apostle who was now the bishop of Smyrna, came and confronted Anicetus, the Bishop of Rome who had allow the changes in the Passover and other changes to bring in converts. According to Irenaeus, around the 150s or 160, Polycarp visited Rome to discuss the differences that existed between the other centers of Christianity in Asia and Rome "with regard to certain things" and especially about the time of the Pasch or Passover which in Rome were now the Easter festivals. Irenaeus says that Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, observed the fourteenth day of the moon, whatever day of the week that might be, following therein the tradition which he derived from John the Apostle. Irenaeus said that on certain things the two bishops speedily came to an understanding, while as to the time of the Pasch and the change to Easter, each adhered to his own custom. Polycarp following the eastern practice of celebrating Passover on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell while the bishop of Rome let it be observed on Sunday.

So the Bishop of Rome ignored the warning and continued to allow the Passover to be observed on Sunday at the pagan Spring Equinox festival and we can see how the Pasch was change to the festival of Easter. But not only was it just the festival as more pagan converts came in, they were allowed to worship on the pagan Spring Equinox festival day which they were used to, while Christians continued to worship on Sabbath. A careful study of the historical records reveals that gradually, with the passing of the years, the Roman bishop tended to use his new day, Sunday, as a ploy for political supremacy over the other churches. Now the danger of allowing the Christians to join in pagan solstice celebrations was overlooked as the new pagan 'converts' joined the church and swelled the numbers under the bishop of Rome. The festival on Easter controversy continued, with the Eastern churches giving it stiff opposition until the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., at which time Sunday was declared the official day for Easter observance. Emperor Constantine immediately followed this, the same year, with civil enactments enforcing it among the churches, and it began to take hold as we see to this day.

So now you can see how this led to the Bible Scholars changing Gods truth, to their preconception of what it was. So the changing of Gods days which he set aside for worship to him is evident in the making of "Holy Days" the festival days of the another origin which is not of God...
 
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reddogs

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So we see there is a "sign" or "Mark" on God's people, however a individual can also get the "sign" or "Mark" that is from another, the Mark of the Beast. How so, clearly by following it in its false practices of worship, which is really worship of the Beast rather than a follower of God and the true worship He asks of us. We see the "sign" or "Mark" on God's people:

Ezekiel 9:4
And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

We see that the "sign" or "Mark" on God's people are on "the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof", and that are "sealed" in Gods truth and have "His name" on their foreheads. Now we also have another text which gives us a clue on God's people, we find it in Revelation.14:12 'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

We see that God's people, the saints, follow God's law, keeping His commandments. It is what are the saints, His people who keep His law, and now compare it to those who worship and follow another, in this case the Beast of Revelation.
Revelation.14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The text in verse 9 says "If any man worship the beast and his image" it clearly leads to the mark of the beast, and we see the end result of that in verse 10. We find even more of those who pick up this mark in Revelation 13:16-17
Revelation 13:16-17
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This means an individual can claim to be a follower of God and still be worshiping the beast in what it lays out in its false system of worship, and thus the "sign" or "Mark" is not of God, but of the Beast. So we have to be careful not to just say we follow God and worship Him but to actually do what we say, and not follow the Beast or practices which can only be seen as worship to false gods and away from the true God.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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It is a sign that says that you are carrying the seal of the Adversary as opposed to the seal of God. We see Gods seal in many verses and it clearly tells us what its about..
2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritof promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So what is the Mark of the Beast that puts the seal of the Adversary in your mind (forehead) or in your hand (actions), Lets take a look at the prophecy, so lets start with Revelation 14: 9-11.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here we as prophecydescribes the terrible fate of those who receive the Mark of the Beast. In contrast, Revelation 14: 12 describes those who have the seal of God and stand victorious with Jesus at the end.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14: 12.

In Revelation 7: 1-3 an angel ascends from the east with the seal of the living God. This angel comes down from heaven and puts a seal on people's foreheads. Two classes are represented: Those who receive the mark of the beast and eventually receive the plagues. Those who keep the commandments of God, who are sealed by the angel, and do not receive the plagues. Scripture explains if we just look.
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. Isaiah 8: 16.

Therefore, the seal of God is contained in His law.
The Bible teaches that the final issue will be over the seal of God as opposed to the mark of the beast.

The Mark of the Beast is his seal of authority, and that would be "a rule or order that it is obligatory to observe" which he has passed. This would include the Sabbath along with all the other changes he has made that he claims he has the authority to do so.

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: Daniel 7:25

So it is a change of Gods seal of authority which are his laws which have been with us since creation and were written out on the tablets of stone, by the Beast with false laws or rules of divine observance that are his seal of authority. We are told to follow Gods truth not traditions or doctrines of men, and his commandments stand as Jesus said:

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

And we are warned of the danger of following traditions of man..

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words: . . . beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col. 2:4-8.

Let no man beguile you of your reward. . . . Why as though living in the world, are you subject to ordinances . . . after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col. 2:18-22.

So who tries to entice and lead you away with these traditions of man?
I would hope that His Holy Spirit is the "Seal" you speak of.
 
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JSRG

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The introduction of Pagan holidays into the church began about the fourth century A.D. with the Roman Emperor Constantine, in order to consolidate his rule, incorporated the Pagan holidays and festivals into the church ritual, attracting the Pagans, but he gave the holidays and festivals new "Christian" names and identities - Easter was a celebration of the spring equinox for the pagans.

Made up.

I wish I could say more on it, but... that's the thing. It's made up. Go ahead, show us the primary source evidence that the Roman Empire had any kind of "spring equinox for the pagans." People who just make claims without evidence themselves do not count. And note it has to be something in the actual Roman Empire, because your whole claim is that the pagans in the Roman Empire were doing this.

In order to introduce the feast of Easter into the calendar, the dates were changed by Dionysius, so that Easter was celebrated a month later than the original Jewish Pasch feast. This was to bring it in line with the ancient eastern festival dates for this feast, and the new date for Easter was then introduced by force.

Who is this "Dionysius"? I'm going to assume Dionysius the Little given his idea on how to compute the date of Easter was popular, but you claim this is happening in the fourth century, when Dionysius wouldn't even be born until the fifth century, and his Easter computations not introduced by him until the sixth.

This also doesn't fit at all with the claim you made about there being a "spring equinox for the pagans". Passover comes after--or at least is supposed to come after--the spring equinox. If Easter is a month later than Passover, how in the world is it mirroring a pagan spring equinox celebration? It's more than a month after!

Now, this claim of it being a month after than "the original Jewish Pasch feast" seems wrong anyway. The timing of Easter is supposed to be the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (that's when the Resurrection happened!). So that's at most a week, not a month. But since Passover--and therefore Easter--always comes after the spring equinox, sometimes as far as a month after, how in the world did any of this aid anyone in having Easter replace this mythical spring equinox festival?

On this day, the ancients lit fires and baked cakes to the queen of heaven with the ancient eastern religions even-sided cross in a circle representing the sun as decoration on these round cakes. To this day, the hot cross bun is an Easter delicacy.

And your evidence for the cakes being having a "cross in a circle" is what, precisely? Like so much of the rest of this, you make a whole lot of claims here, and offer zero evidence of anything.

Even if this was true, the hot cross bun appears to be an invention of around the 17th or 18th centuries. And if you disagree, go ahead and show me evidence of Christian usage of them prior. Oh, and again primary sources only. There is a claim some people make that they were invented in the 14th century by a monk, but the earliest anyone has been able to trace this claim, as far as I know, is by someone in a 19th century work. It is almost certainly something made up in the 19th century to try to give the food a greater antiquity.

The egg is also a pagan symbol representing rebirth, and decorated eggs were traditionally eaten on this feast day.

Well, since the feast day appears made up, so would this. Even if there was some ancient practice, Easter eggs--while not as new as hot cross buns--still develop too much later for there to be any plausible connection.

The rest of your post is mostly just based on these errors, so there's no need to go further. You're just spouting off a bunch of incorrect information here that's essentially all just speculation.

If you want anyone to take any of this seriously, you need to provide actual primary sources. But all anyone ever is able to do to try to back these claims up is to just point to random websites or books that offer no evidence themselves. Which makes sense--for there's no evidence for them, outside of a whole lot of speculation.
 
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Hentenza

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So I love the Lord and worship Him. I don’t keep the Saturday sabbath but keep the Lord’s day on Sunday. I don’t keep the law of Moses because it was never given to me but I walk in the Spirit and keep Jesus two love commandments. So, do I get the mark if the beast or do I receive the seal of God?
 
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reddogs

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Made up.

I wish I could say more on it, but... that's the thing. It's made up. Go ahead, show us the primary source evidence that the Roman Empire had any kind of "spring equinox for the pagans." People who just make claims without evidence themselves do not count. And note it has to be something in the actual Roman Empire, because your whole claim is that the pagans in the Roman Empire were doing this.



Who is this "Dionysius"? I'm going to assume Dionysius the Little given his idea on how to compute the date of Easter was popular, but you claim this is happening in the fourth century, when Dionysius wouldn't even be born until the fifth century, and his Easter computations not introduced by him until the sixth.

This also doesn't fit at all with the claim you made about there being a "spring equinox for the pagans". Passover comes after--or at least is supposed to come after--the spring equinox. If Easter is a month later than Passover, how in the world is it mirroring a pagan spring equinox celebration? It's more than a month after!

Now, this claim of it being a month after than "the original Jewish Pasch feast" seems wrong anyway. The timing of Easter is supposed to be the Sunday after the Jewish Passover (that's when the Resurrection happened!). So that's at most a week, not a month. But since Passover--and therefore Easter--always comes after the spring equinox, sometimes as far as a month after, how in the world did any of this aid anyone in having Easter replace this mythical spring equinox festival?



And your evidence for the cakes being having a "cross in a circle" is what, precisely? Like so much of the rest of this, you make a whole lot of claims here, and offer zero evidence of anything.

Even if this was true, the hot cross bun appears to be an invention of around the 17th or 18th centuries. And if you disagree, go ahead and show me evidence of Christian usage of them prior. Oh, and again primary sources only. There is a claim some people make that they were invented in the 14th century by a monk, but the earliest anyone has been able to trace this claim, as far as I know, is by someone in a 19th century work. It is almost certainly something made up in the 19th century to try to give the food a greater antiquity.



Well, since the feast day appears made up, so would this. Even if there was some ancient practice, Easter eggs--while not as new as hot cross buns--still develop too much later for there to be any plausible connection.

The rest of your post is mostly just based on these errors, so there's no need to go further. You're just spouting off a bunch of incorrect information here that's essentially all just speculation.

If you want anyone to take any of this seriously, you need to provide actual primary sources. But all anyone ever is able to do to try to back these claims up is to just point to random websites or books that offer no evidence themselves. Which makes sense--for there's no evidence for them, outside of a whole lot of speculation.
Well lets take a closer look then...
.
"Here is how Pagan Rome was converted to Papal Rome:

Roman Empire (Imperium Romanum) renamed: Roman Catholic Church

Curia (legal body of Senators) slight name change: Curia (legal body of Cardinals)

Roman Emperor renamed: Roman Pope (head of all church and state affairs)

Civil government matters of state: Extra-Ordinary affairs (matters of civil-state governments)

Religious orders matters: Church “ecclesiastical” matters

Roman College of Senators renamed: College of Cardinals

Magistrate of College of Senators renamed: Dean of College of Cardinals

Departments of the Roman Senatorial Curia renamed: Congregations

Political Ambassador renamed: Pro-Nuncio (highest civil ambassador sent to other governments, ie Washington DC, London etc)

......Roman Senators renamed: Cardinals

Roman Governors renamed: Archbishops

Roman Senator with no territory: Bishop (Code of Canon Law 376)

(Large) Roman Province renamed: Archdiocese

(Small) Roman Territory renamed: Diocese

Imperial Chair of Jupiter where Caesar sat renamed: Throne of St. Peter

Vestal Virgins renamed: Nuns

Pontifex Maximus
(high priest of College of Senators) renamed: Supreme Pontiff of College of Cardinals

Pontiff or “high priest ” of a pagan religious order (Zues, Apollo, Diana, Mars, Jupiter, Baal, Dionysys, Pythia etc) same name: Pontiff

A Pontiff (Latin: “pontifex”) means bridge-builder or priest between man and the gods of the underworld.

The Roman Calendar and Holy Days of the gods renamed: Calendar Holidays of the Saints

Voice of the gods speaking through Caesar: Ex-Cathedra: Voice of God speaking through Pope

Meeting of the Pontiffs (high priests) of the pagan religious orders renamed: Ecumenical Council of the Bishops

Legal act of creating a god (of a living or dead human, as was done to most of the Caesars) “Apotheosis of the Gods” renamed: Canonization of the Saints

A decree of Caesar (dictator for life): Pope’s infallible Dogma

Praying to a dead human god renamed: Praying to a saint"
....Papal Rome as a Continuation of Pagan Rome


Its so vast I cant put it all and history has so many sources that point out the origins of the pagan corruption that was let in and the results....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].
"in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy.

"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

"The Church did everything it couldto stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

"We know that Mithraism was a state religion of Rome at the time that the Christian church was established there. Evidently tenants of Mithraism such as Sunday worship and eating the wafer in the mass were adopted into Christianity at that time" -Jim Arrabito "666 & the Mark"

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

"In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

"Yet the cross itself is the oldest of phallic emblems, and the lozenge-shaped windows of cathedrals are proof that the yonic symbols have survived the destructions of the pagan Mysteries. The very structure of the church itself is permeated with (sexual symbolism) phallicism. Remove from the Christian Church all emblems of Priapic origin and nothing is left..." -The secret teaching of all ages by Manley P. Hall

"When the zealots of the primitave Christian Church sought to Christianize paganism, the pagan initiates retorted with a powerful effort to paganize Christianity. The Christians failed but the pagans succeeded. With the decline of paganism the initiated pagan hierophants transferred their base of operations to the new vehicle of primitive Christianity, adopting the symbols of the new cult to conceal those eternal verities which are ever the priceless possession of the wise." -The secret teachings of all ages, Manley P. Hall p. CLXXXV

"...The world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ." -The Great Controversy, p. 50

"The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.

"Langdon tells us that Mary worship came from ancient Babylon where the virgin mother-goddess was worshiped under the name "Ishtar." Elsewhere in the Near East, the mother-goddess was called "Astarte, Ashtoreth, Persephone, Artemis, [Diana] of Ephesus, Venus, and Isis." This goddess, considered to be greater than any god, was called by these heathen the "virgin mother, merciful mother, Queen of Heaven, and my lady" [which is what "Madonna" means in Italian]. Langdon says she was often sculptured in mother-and-infant images, or as a "mater dolorom" [sorrowful mother] interceding for men with a wrathful god. And thus ancient paganism was brought into the churches and lives of Christians.--see S.H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition, pp. 12-34, 108-111, 341-344. Laing mentions several other corruptions by which the mother-goddess was worshiped by heathens, that Rome adopted into Christianity: holy water, votive offerings, elevation of sacred objects [lifting of the host], the priest's bells, the decking of images, processions, festivals, prayers for the dead, the worship of relics and the statues of saints.'"--see Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, 1931 edition, pp. 92-95, 123-131,238-241.

'Stephen Benko specializes in early Christianity in its pagan environment. In The Virgin Goddess: Studies in the Pagan and Christian Roots of Mariology, he traces the development of the cult of Mary from Greek and Roman mythology through to recent times. Benko avoids anti-Catholic polemics and is sympathetic to the place of the “queen of heaven” in Christianity. That said, he unerringly traces Mary’s roots to the pagan, pre-Christian heavenly queens of Greece, Rome and the wider Mediterranean—those mutable goddesses whose ranks include Artemis, Astarte, Celeste, Ceres, Cybele, Demeter, Diana, Ishtar, Isis and Selene.... “Christianity,” he notes, “did not add a new element to religion when it introduced into its theology such concepts as ‘virgin’ and ‘mother’; rather, it sharpened and refined images that already existed in numerous forms in pagan mythology.”' The Rise and Rise of the Queen of Heaven
 
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reddogs

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The Virgin Mary you worship is not the historical Virgin Mary.
The Catholic Church are worshipping the Queen of Heaven, a pagan goddess.

431 A.D. - The Catholic Church introduces the worship of Mary. 104
431 A.D. - Council at Ephesus affirmed that Mary was the bearer of Jesus as “man and God”. 104
1854 - Roman Catholic Church introduce the “Immaculate conception of Mary”. 104
1904 - Roman Catholic Church “crowned” Mary. 105
1950 - Roman Catholic Church introduces the Assumption of Mary. 104'.. The Queen of Heaven..

Here are a few of the pagan gods and how they were renamed to let their worship continue:

"Demeter is a goddess of many festivals but most important, the Thesmophoria, which fell in late October. She became St. Demetrios, a masculine warrior saint, whose fd. is 10/26.

Aphrodite became St. Aphrodite, of which there are several, all with saints' tales that tell how she became a "repentant harlot."

Nike was picked up as Saint Nicholas, who was extremely popular wherever shipping was important. He is the patron saint of Russian, Holland and Germany, all on the north sea coast.

The Roman god Mars was originally a god who guarded wheat fields. He became St. Martin (esp. St. Martin-in-the-fields). Although March is the month associated with Mars (it was the beginning of the military campaigning season in Roman times), the major festival for him in Christian times now usually falls in February, called Mardi Gras "Great Mars."

The Roman god Quirinus became St. Cyrinus, of which there are various "equestrian warrior saints" such as St. Cyr in France, and St. Quirina, mother of St. Lawrence. The element quir- means (or was understood to mean) `horse.' These saints were very popular and widely worshiped in the Middle-Ages, in France, Holland and also eastern Christian countries.

The Roman gods known as the Lares became St. Lawrence, esp. St. Lawrence beyond-the-wall. The Lares were field gods who protected the grain growing in the fields. In Italian, he became St. Lorenzo beyond the Walls, meaning outside of the walls of the city, for which there is still a church in Rome, with many "daughter" churches which developed from it.

The Roman goddess Venus became St. Venera (with a feminized ending to her name since -us looks like a masculine ending in Latin). She had a major church in Rome in early Christian times, but that didn't last long.

The Roman gods known as the Gemini, who were protectors of sailors in Roman pagan times, became the Sanctos Geminos, with a number of forms in the various Christian religions. Santiago de Compostela, (St. James in English) became the protector of pilgrims during the Middle Ages. Forms of St. James all seem to be christianized from various forms of the Proto-Indo-European god *Yama. This god was repeatedly christianized in most of the Indo-European language groups.

The ancient Romans worshiped gods and goddesses involved with every aspect of life. Jupiter, the chief of the gods, was the god of rain and storms, while his wife, Juno, was the goddess of womanhood. Minerva was the goddess of handicrafts and wisdom; Venus, of sexual love and birth; Vesta, of the hearth and sacred fires; Ceres, of farming and harvests.

The Greeks considered Mercury, whom they called Hermes, to be the messenger of the gods, but the Romans worshiped him as the god of trade, with businesspeople celebrating his feast day to increase profits. And there were other popular deities: Mars, god of war; Castor and Pollux, gods of sea travelers; Cronos, the guardian of time; and of course Cupid, god of love, whose magic arrows caused both human beings and immortals to fall in love.

While the Romans would call generically on "the gods," each major deity still had its own cult, and worshippers would pray and conduct religious ceremonies to a specific god or goddess to implore help."... St. Valentine, Cupid and Jesus Christ
 
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reddogs

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Now lets take a look at the College of Pontiffs (which originated in Babylon with its priesthood) or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.

Now lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from.

Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place.

Here is more:
The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back to Babylon. The Babylon Kings, who were descended from Nimrod, served as both king and priest of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion, As priests, they bore the title "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff," meaning "supreme pathfinder" or "bridge maker," representing "the path or connection between this life and the next" When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian pagan religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures. They continued their reign there as priest-kings of Babylonian paganism.

The pontiff king of Pergamum Attalus III, bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC and the kingdom of Pergamum merged with the Roman Empire along with what the Bible calls Satan throne and idol worship and its title "Pontifex Maximus".

Revelation 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

In the fourth century AD, Christian emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome. By this time, the Roman bishops had advanced in political power, and so Bishop Damasus was elected Pontifex Maximus, becoming the official pagan Babylonian priest seated on Satan's throne in Rome. As such, the bishop converted the pagan temples of Rome into Christian churches and introduced the worship of pagan Babylon with its rites and rituals and pagan sacraments. History has what is considered the "overnight" conversion of pagan Romans to Christianity, which in actuality, the Roman pagans did not convert to Christianity, but rather the bishop Damasus exercised his authority as head of' Babylonian paganism in Rome, and replaced all the Christian elders with pagan priests and continued the practice of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion and began its spread to all areas of the old Roman Empire.

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs from Babylon and Ancient pagan Rome with the Pontifex Maximus at the head.

The keys that the Pope wears around his neck are not the keys of Peter. Rather, they date back from Babylonian times, when it was supposed that this representative of God had the power to unlock heaven or hell. All the pomp and ceremony that existed in ancient Babylon was now practiced as Roman Catholic Christianity.

We find much of what happened in statement about the Popes position as the pagan priest who is the Pontifex Maximus:

"The Emperor is no more...but the Pontifex Maximus abides; he is now the Vicar of Christ, offering the old civilisation to the tribes of the North. He converts them to his creed, and they serve him as Father and Judge supreme" William Barry's 'The Papal Monarchy'.
 
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Now lets take a look at the College of Pontiffs (which originated in Babylon with its priesthood) or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.

Now lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from.

Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place.

Here is more:
The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back to Babylon. The Babylon Kings, who were descended from Nimrod, served as both king and priest of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion, As priests, they bore the title "Pontifex Maximus" or "Supreme Pontiff," meaning "supreme pathfinder" or "bridge maker," representing "the path or connection between this life and the next" When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian pagan religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures. They continued their reign there as priest-kings of Babylonian paganism.

The pontiff king of Pergamum Attalus III, bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC and the kingdom of Pergamum merged with the Roman Empire along with what the Bible calls Satan throne and idol worship and its title "Pontifex Maximus".

Revelation 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

In the fourth century AD, Christian emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome. By this time, the Roman bishops had advanced in political power, and so Bishop Damasus was elected Pontifex Maximus, becoming the official pagan Babylonian priest seated on Satan's throne in Rome. As such, the bishop converted the pagan temples of Rome into Christian churches and introduced the worship of pagan Babylon with its rites and rituals and pagan sacraments. History has what is considered the "overnight" conversion of pagan Romans to Christianity, which in actuality, the Roman pagans did not convert to Christianity, but rather the bishop Damasus exercised his authority as head of' Babylonian paganism in Rome, and replaced all the Christian elders with pagan priests and continued the practice of the pagan Babylonian Mystery religion and began its spread to all areas of the old Roman Empire.

The present-day college of cardinals with the Pope at the head is identical to the college of pontiffs from Babylon and Ancient pagan Rome with the Pontifex Maximus at the head.

The keys that the Pope wears around his neck are not the keys of Peter. Rather, they date back from Babylonian times, when it was supposed that this representative of God had the power to unlock heaven or hell. All the pomp and ceremony that existed in ancient Babylon was now practiced as Roman Catholic Christianity.

We find much of what happened in statement about the Popes position as the pagan priest who is the Pontifex Maximus:

"The Emperor is no more...but the Pontifex Maximus abides; he is now the Vicar of Christ, offering the old civilisation to the tribes of the North. He converts them to his creed, and they serve him as Father and Judge supreme" William Barry's 'The Papal Monarchy'.

All of this dubious psuedohistory about Pagan cults is irrelevant to the history of Christian worship on the First Day, because we see it in the BIble (the Resurrection, anyone? Pentecost?), Christians are not Pagans, the early Church wasn’t Pagan, and if Rome had attempted to impose Pagan worship, communion with the Church of Rome would have been severed by the Orthodox (case in point: in 451 the Oriental Orthodox severed communion with the Church of Rome over the Tome of Leo, which differed from Oriental Orthodoxy by one word, changing “from” to “in”, which to the Oriental Orthodox, when combined with the improper removal of Mor Dioscorus as Patriarch of Alexandria on the false charge of Monophysitism, was enough to sever communion). In the case of the Eastern Orthodox we were excommunicated for objecting to Papal Supremacy, but really the actual issues the Pope was trying to impose using Papal supremacy were:

- Clean shaven clergy (Orthodox priests wear beards)
- Clerical celibacy not just for monks or bishops
- Leavened vs. unleavened Eucharistic bread
- The Filioque (the double-procession of the Holy Spirit)
- The jurisdiction of areas in Central-Eastern Europe such as the former Yugoslavia

Actually if anyone is responsible for first day worship being normative, it would be us Orthodox; everything the Adventists claim was done by the Roman Catholics was either done by Rome in concert with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox or by the Eastern Orthodox alone, but since documents Adventists regard as inspired prophecy don’t mention us, we presumably don’t exist and the poor Romans get all the blame.
 
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Yes, history has it all wrong and yet it shows what clearly is the truth of the matter...

"The Babylonian system of worship has essentially been maintained even is hidden as mysterys or ceremonies or otherwise to modern day and can be seen in some form or another. The ancient Chaldeans worshipped a pantheon of male and female gods representing the sun god and there were largely three aspects to this system of sun worship, representing the father, mother, and the son. These were the god Bel or Merodach, Ninus the son, who was also worshipped as Tammuz, and the female goddess Rhea who was also worshipped as Ishtar, Astarte, or Beltis representing the mother. She was also referred to as the ‘queen of heaven’, and the ‘wrath subduer’.

The Greeks had pick up and adopt the Babylonian gods and the Greek Doura (the Greek temple in Mesopotamia) freely admitted the gods of Babylon. The foreign gods were given or take Greek names" (Tarn, ibid., pp. 301, 302).

Speaking of this Babylonian system, Dr. Cumont remarks:

'The native religions retained all their prestige and independence. In their ancient sanctuaries that took rank with the richest and most famous in the world, a powerful clergy continued to practise ancestral devotions according to barbarian rites, and frequently liturgy, everywhere performed with scrupulous respect.. (Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism, p. 22).

The Greeks picked up the Babylonian worship and carried to completion Alexander the Greats project of restoring Bel’s temple at Babylon and re-founded Nebo’s temple at Borsippa, and many pagan temples where restored as the Babylonian religion became dominant among the Greeks. The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of their idol was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Mesopotamian sun-god.

Speaking of Antioch, the Seleucid capital, and the religious motives which governed the region, Cumont says:

There can be no doubt that Babylonian doctrines exercised decisive influence on this gradual metamorphosis and this latest phase of Semitic religion. The SELEUCID PRINCES OF ANTIOCH showed as great a deference to the science of the Babylonian clergy as the Persian Achaemenids had done before them. We find Seleucus Nicator (the first king) consulting these official soothsayers (i.e. Chaldeans) about the propitious hour for founding Seleucia on the Tigris....The cities of Syria often stamp on their coins certain signs of the zodiac to mark the fact that they stood under their patronage. (Astrology and Religion, pp. 80, 81).

By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward. Under the Empire many of the conquered people were transported to Rome as slaves and took their religions directly with them.
The Chaldean astrology, of which the Syrian priests were enthusiastic disciples, had furnished them (the Romans) with the elements of a scientific theology (Cumont, Oriental Religions, p. 199). And the "Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian in the third century, proclaimed the sun-god as the official god of the Romans. This Sun-worship was the final form which Roman paganism assumed. In 274 A.D. the emperor Aurelian conferred on it official recognition, inspired by what he had seen at Palmyra, he founded a gorgeous temple in honour of Sol Invictus — the invincible Sun — served by priests who had precedence even over the members of the ancient Collegium pontificum; and in the following century, the Claudian emperors worshipped the almighty star (the sun) ... The invincible Sun raised to the supreme position in the divine hierarchy, peculiar protector of sovereigns and of the Empire, tends to absorb or subordinate to himself all other divinities (Cumont, Astrology and Religion, p. 133).

Even the later Roman emperors, took up the Babylonian sun god and its worship spread among the Romans.

So we see the connection to the ancient worship of the Babylonian sun god, and Easter and its true origin, and the church at Rome was at the center and the change from Sabbath to Sunday was slowly introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century, and it was not from the Apostles or scripture, but for another reason of pagan origin. It arrayed in a Christian garb the beliefs that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines.

"The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.

Langdon tells us that Mary worship came from ancient Babylon where the virgin mother-goddess was worshiped under the name "Ishtar." Elsewhere in the Near East, the mother-goddess was called "Astarte, Ashtoreth, Persephone, Artemis, [Diana] of Ephesus, Venus, and Isis." This goddess, considered to be greater than any god, was called by these heathen the "virgin mother, merciful mother, Queen of Heaven, and my lady" [which is what "Madonna" means in Italian]. Langdon says she was often sculptured in mother-and-infant images, or as a "mater dolorom" [sorrowful mother] interceding for men with a wrathful god. And thus ancient paganism was brought into the churches and lives of Christians.--see S.H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition, pp. 12-34, 108-111, 341-344. Laing mentions several other corruptions by which the mother-goddess was worshiped by heathens, that Rome adopted into Christianity: holy water, votive offerings, elevation of sacred objects [lifting of the host], the priest's bells, the decking of images, processions, festivals, prayers for the dead, the worship of relics and the statues of saints.--see Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, 1931 edition, pp. 92-95, 123-131,238-241.

Two dominant elements brought into Christianity from paganism by Rome were Sun worship symbols and the religious practices of ancient Babylon] "The solar theology of the Chaldaeans [Babylonians], had decisive effect . . . [upon the] final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans when [the Roman emperor] Aurelian, the conqueror of Palmyra, had raised 'Sol Invictus' [the invincible sun-god] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire"--The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647. From Palmyra he transferred to the new sanctuary the images of Helios [the sun-god] and Bel, the malaise patron god of Babylon--see Cumont, The Oriental Religions In Roman Paganism, 1911 edition, pp. 114-115, 124.
 
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Well lets take a closer look then...

I have noticed something repeatedly with you. You will post a bunch of incorrect information. Then when someone points out major problems with it, instead of actually responding to their points, you ignore it, and instead do one of the following:
1) Quickly change the subject
2) Throw out a bunch more unverified and inaccurate information (often a bunch of quotes you have clearly never bothered to verify)
3) Offer no reply at all

In this case, you go for both #1 and #2. You made some specific claims on Easter, and I pointed out they are without evidence and asked you to try to prove it. You didn't. Instead, you changed the subject (#1) to general accusations of paganism, and then threw out a bunch of claims and copy/pasted quotes that you clearly didn't verify (#2). Almost none of the things you posted subsequently had anything to do with Easter at all, and the handful of times you did, they only made brief vague statements about it (without evidence) that didn't relate to the claims you made.

On one hand, I don't want to play into this by allowing you to dodge the issue by changing the subject. On the other hand, I feel I should point out some of the problems in these copy/pasted quotes. So I'll just respond to a few of them.

Its so vast I cant put it all and history has so many sources that point out the origins of the pagan corruption that was let in and the results....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

Note again you are not responding to anything I said here.

Anyway, this quote you for some reason end up giving three separate times, so you apparently attach importance to it. So let's look at it. In all versions, you artificially cut some things out. Here's the more full version:

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church."

So one can see for starters that this iteration of the quote you provided is inaccurate, e.g. Newman nowhere mentions "statues". Also, several things are cut out (e.g. "the ring in marriage") without any note. In fairness, some of the other versions of this quote you provide are a bit more accurate. But why do you say is three times?

Now, in the context of this section of Newman's work, he is a bit confusing on this point. In some points he seems to be saying these things are only "of pagan origin" insofar as pagans also did them, but not that they had anything to do with Christianity. But in some points he seems to be saying it was taken from pagans, albeit cleansed of the problematic aspects.

But regardless of Newman's intent on this, we run into a number of obvious problems. First, most of these can be found in the Old Testament among the Jews. They had a temple, they had incense, they had oil lamps, etc. They most certainly had holidays and calendars. Unless you are attempting to argue that the Old Testament is pagan, this is dismissed. And Newman gives no evidence any of these things outside of the Kyrie Eleison, only vaguely saying it is a "subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us." Meaning this information comes from unspecified Protestant writers, who could have been wrong (certainly they are out of date nowadays). And it should be noted the Kyrie Eleison--the one any evidence is offered for--is in the Bible itself.

So this Newman quote doesn't mean much--and doesn't back up the claims you made either.

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

The only statement Gibbons makes on Babylon there is to say that 1 Peter 5:13's mention of Babylon is referring to Rome, "the word Babylon being symbolical of the corruption then prevailing in the city of the Caesars." This interpretation of the verse is uncontested, but even if he is right, he never uses the phrase "New Babylon" (which you put in quotes), never says anything about the religion of Babylon, and is specifically talking about the first century (as he is talking about 1 Peter), not things that happened later. This is simply a false quote on your part. Even if this was intended as a summary rather than a quote, it's still a false summary.

"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

This again doesn't actually back up the claims you made, but this one is particularly problematic. This is because quite a while ago, I pointed out to you this was untrue, and challenged you to point to where Eusebius said this, even giving you a link to the work. You gave no reply. Maybe this time you'll do it.

One can find Life of Constantine here:

Go ahead--point it out to me where he says it. Because I can't find it, because it isn't true. Again, this was pointed out to you before. Do you not care about getting people's quotes right? I know you're just copy/pasting these without verification, but even after it's pointed out to you it's false, you continue to spout it out. The generous interpretation is that you simply forgot about this correction (it was years ago), but one would think you would at least remove it from this copy/pasted list of quotes of yours. But whatever the case, here's your chance to prove it. Show me where this quote is!

"The Church did everything it couldto stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

Again not actually answering the question posed. Now, Goodenough gives a lack of examples or evidence of this. The only one he does is when he takes a local practice which he speculates traces back to a pagan one. However, based on that, he's just talking about what common people do, not anything that was formally ordained by the Catholic Church.

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

Again not actually backing up your claims I challenged you on. Also, after some searching, I have been unable to find this quote in the work; you certainly provide no page number. It would indeed be very odd to see this quote that says "Samuel Dill exclaims" being in a work that is by Samuel Dill (he wrote the cited book).

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

Again not backing up your claim. Also, this is a misquote. He actually says:

""As the Pope filled the place of the absent Emperors at Rome, inheriting their power, their prestige, the titles which they had themselves derived from the days of their paganism, so the Emperors controlled, guided, personified, the Church at Constantinople."

He doesn't say the power, prestige, or titles came from paganism as in the religion, but that they came from the Emperors who had them in "the days of their paganism." Precisely which power, prestige, or titles he refers to he does not say. In any event, this says nothing about actually taking something from paganism as in their actual religion; it only looks like that way because the person you copy/pasted it from got the quote wrong and you repeated it because you didn't verify it.

I think that should be enough to demonstrate the problems in these copy/pasted quotes of yours. And even if we were to ignore all these problems and suppose every single thing you said was true, it still wouldn't back up the claims you made that I challenged you on.

In subsequent posts to the one I addressed (it is not clear whether they were supposed to be further continuances to the above one or separate ones entirely), you continue to throw out more unevidenced claims, but again if I were to go and try to respond to all of those, it would only allow this digression of yours to further obscure the fact your response to my challenges was to simply change the subject and then throw out a lot more claims without evidence, as noted at the start of this post.
 
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reddogs

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I have noticed something repeatedly with you. You will post a bunch of incorrect information. Then when someone points out major problems with it, instead of actually responding to their points, you ignore it, and instead do one of the following:
1) Quickly change the subject
2) Throw out a bunch more unverified and inaccurate information (often a bunch of quotes you have clearly never bothered to verify)
3) Offer no reply at all

In this case, you go for both #1 and #2. You made some specific claims on Easter, and I pointed out they are without evidence and asked you to try to prove it. You didn't. Instead, you changed the subject (#1) to general accusations of paganism, and then threw out a bunch of claims and copy/pasted quotes that you clearly didn't verify (#2). Almost none of the things you posted subsequently had anything to do with Easter at all, and the handful of times you did, they only made brief vague statements about it (without evidence) that didn't relate to the claims you made.

On one hand, I don't want to play into this by allowing you to dodge the issue by changing the subject. On the other hand, I feel I should point out some of the problems in these copy/pasted quotes. So I'll just respond to a few of them.



Note again you are not responding to anything I said here.

Anyway, this quote you for some reason end up giving three separate times, so you apparently attach importance to it. So let's look at it. In all versions, you artificially cut some things out. Here's the more full version:

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church."

So one can see for starters that this iteration of the quote you provided is inaccurate, e.g. Newman nowhere mentions "statues". Also, several things are cut out (e.g. "the ring in marriage") without any note. In fairness, some of the other versions of this quote you provide are a bit more accurate. But why do you say is three times?

Now, in the context of this section of Newman's work, he is a bit confusing on this point. In some points he seems to be saying these things are only "of pagan origin" insofar as pagans also did them, but not that they had anything to do with Christianity. But in some points he seems to be saying it was taken from pagans, albeit cleansed of the problematic aspects.

But regardless of Newman's intent on this, we run into a number of obvious problems. First, most of these can be found in the Old Testament among the Jews. They had a temple, they had incense, they had oil lamps, etc. They most certainly had holidays and calendars. Unless you are attempting to argue that the Old Testament is pagan, this is dismissed. And Newman gives no evidence any of these things outside of the Kyrie Eleison, only vaguely saying it is a "subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us." Meaning this information comes from unspecified Protestant writers, who could have been wrong (certainly they are out of date nowadays). And it should be noted the Kyrie Eleison--the one any evidence is offered for--is in the Bible itself.

So this Newman quote doesn't mean much--and doesn't back up the claims you made either.



The only statement Gibbons makes on Babylon there is to say that 1 Peter 5:13's mention of Babylon is referring to Rome, "the word Babylon being symbolical of the corruption then prevailing in the city of the Caesars." This interpretation of the verse is uncontested, but even if he is right, he never uses the phrase "New Babylon" (which you put in quotes), never says anything about the religion of Babylon, and is specifically talking about the first century (as he is talking about 1 Peter), not things that happened later. This is simply a false quote on your part. Even if this was intended as a summary rather than a quote, it's still a false summary.



This again doesn't actually back up the claims you made, but this one is particularly problematic. This is because quite a while ago, I pointed out to you this was untrue, and challenged you to point to where Eusebius said this, even giving you a link to the work. You gave no reply. Maybe this time you'll do it.

One can find Life of Constantine here:

Go ahead--point it out to me where he says it. Because I can't find it, because it isn't true. Again, this was pointed out to you before. Do you not care about getting people's quotes right? I know you're just copy/pasting these without verification, but even after it's pointed out to you it's false, you continue to spout it out. The generous interpretation is that you simply forgot about this correction (it was years ago), but one would think you would at least remove it from this copy/pasted list of quotes of yours. But whatever the case, here's your chance to prove it. Show me where this quote is!



Again not actually answering the question posed. Now, Goodenough gives a lack of examples or evidence of this. The only one he does is when he takes a local practice which he speculates traces back to a pagan one. However, based on that, he's just talking about what common people do, not anything that was formally ordained by the Catholic Church.



Again not actually backing up your claims I challenged you on. Also, after some searching, I have been unable to find this quote in the work; you certainly provide no page number. It would indeed be very odd to see this quote that says "Samuel Dill exclaims" being in a work that is by Samuel Dill (he wrote the cited book).



Again not backing up your claim. Also, this is a misquote. He actually says:

""As the Pope filled the place of the absent Emperors at Rome, inheriting their power, their prestige, the titles which they had themselves derived from the days of their paganism, so the Emperors controlled, guided, personified, the Church at Constantinople."

He doesn't say the power, prestige, or titles came from paganism as in the religion, but that they came from the Emperors who had them in "the days of their paganism." Precisely which power, prestige, or titles he refers to he does not say. In any event, this says nothing about actually taking something from paganism as in their actual religion; it only looks like that way because the person you copy/pasted it from got the quote wrong and you repeated it because you didn't verify it.

I think that should be enough to demonstrate the problems in these copy/pasted quotes of yours. And even if we were to ignore all these problems and suppose every single thing you said was true, it still wouldn't back up the claims you made that I challenged you on.

In subsequent posts to the one I addressed (it is not clear whether they were supposed to be further continuances to the above one or separate ones entirely), you continue to throw out more unevidenced claims, but again if I were to go and try to respond to all of those, it would only allow this digression of yours to further obscure the fact your response to my challenges was to simply change the subject and then throw out a lot more claims without evidence, as noted at the start of this post.
Yes, history just is all incorrect, we cant use any of it, its all fake news, lets see the source. Oops it comes from the church of Rome and those historians, must be all wrong.
 
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Hentenza

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I have noticed something repeatedly with you. You will post a bunch of incorrect information. Then when someone points out major problems with it, instead of actually responding to their points, you ignore it, and instead do one of the following:
1) Quickly change the subject
2) Throw out a bunch more unverified and inaccurate information (often a bunch of quotes you have clearly never bothered to verify)
3) Offer no reply at all

In this case, you go for both #1 and #2. You made some specific claims on Easter, and I pointed out they are without evidence and asked you to try to prove it. You didn't. Instead, you changed the subject (#1) to general accusations of paganism, and then threw out a bunch of claims and copy/pasted quotes that you clearly didn't verify (#2). Almost none of the things you posted subsequently had anything to do with Easter at all, and the handful of times you did, they only made brief vague statements about it (without evidence) that didn't relate to the claims you made.

On one hand, I don't want to play into this by allowing you to dodge the issue by changing the subject. On the other hand, I feel I should point out some of the problems in these copy/pasted quotes. So I'll just respond to a few of them.



Note again you are not responding to anything I said here.

Anyway, this quote you for some reason end up giving three separate times, so you apparently attach importance to it. So let's look at it. In all versions, you artificially cut some things out. Here's the more full version:

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church."

So one can see for starters that this iteration of the quote you provided is inaccurate, e.g. Newman nowhere mentions "statues". Also, several things are cut out (e.g. "the ring in marriage") without any note. In fairness, some of the other versions of this quote you provide are a bit more accurate. But why do you say is three times?

Now, in the context of this section of Newman's work, he is a bit confusing on this point. In some points he seems to be saying these things are only "of pagan origin" insofar as pagans also did them, but not that they had anything to do with Christianity. But in some points he seems to be saying it was taken from pagans, albeit cleansed of the problematic aspects.

But regardless of Newman's intent on this, we run into a number of obvious problems. First, most of these can be found in the Old Testament among the Jews. They had a temple, they had incense, they had oil lamps, etc. They most certainly had holidays and calendars. Unless you are attempting to argue that the Old Testament is pagan, this is dismissed. And Newman gives no evidence any of these things outside of the Kyrie Eleison, only vaguely saying it is a "subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us." Meaning this information comes from unspecified Protestant writers, who could have been wrong (certainly they are out of date nowadays). And it should be noted the Kyrie Eleison--the one any evidence is offered for--is in the Bible itself.

So this Newman quote doesn't mean much--and doesn't back up the claims you made either.



The only statement Gibbons makes on Babylon there is to say that 1 Peter 5:13's mention of Babylon is referring to Rome, "the word Babylon being symbolical of the corruption then prevailing in the city of the Caesars." This interpretation of the verse is uncontested, but even if he is right, he never uses the phrase "New Babylon" (which you put in quotes), never says anything about the religion of Babylon, and is specifically talking about the first century (as he is talking about 1 Peter), not things that happened later. This is simply a false quote on your part. Even if this was intended as a summary rather than a quote, it's still a false summary.



This again doesn't actually back up the claims you made, but this one is particularly problematic. This is because quite a while ago, I pointed out to you this was untrue, and challenged you to point to where Eusebius said this, even giving you a link to the work. You gave no reply. Maybe this time you'll do it.

One can find Life of Constantine here:

Go ahead--point it out to me where he says it. Because I can't find it, because it isn't true. Again, this was pointed out to you before. Do you not care about getting people's quotes right? I know you're just copy/pasting these without verification, but even after it's pointed out to you it's false, you continue to spout it out. The generous interpretation is that you simply forgot about this correction (it was years ago), but one would think you would at least remove it from this copy/pasted list of quotes of yours. But whatever the case, here's your chance to prove it. Show me where this quote is!



Again not actually answering the question posed. Now, Goodenough gives a lack of examples or evidence of this. The only one he does is when he takes a local practice which he speculates traces back to a pagan one. However, based on that, he's just talking about what common people do, not anything that was formally ordained by the Catholic Church.



Again not actually backing up your claims I challenged you on. Also, after some searching, I have been unable to find this quote in the work; you certainly provide no page number. It would indeed be very odd to see this quote that says "Samuel Dill exclaims" being in a work that is by Samuel Dill (he wrote the cited book).



Again not backing up your claim. Also, this is a misquote. He actually says:

""As the Pope filled the place of the absent Emperors at Rome, inheriting their power, their prestige, the titles which they had themselves derived from the days of their paganism, so the Emperors controlled, guided, personified, the Church at Constantinople."

He doesn't say the power, prestige, or titles came from paganism as in the religion, but that they came from the Emperors who had them in "the days of their paganism." Precisely which power, prestige, or titles he refers to he does not say. In any event, this says nothing about actually taking something from paganism as in their actual religion; it only looks like that way because the person you copy/pasted it from got the quote wrong and you repeated it because you didn't verify it.

I think that should be enough to demonstrate the problems in these copy/pasted quotes of yours. And even if we were to ignore all these problems and suppose every single thing you said was true, it still wouldn't back up the claims you made that I challenged you on.

In subsequent posts to the one I addressed (it is not clear whether they were supposed to be further continuances to the above one or separate ones entirely), you continue to throw out more unevidenced claims, but again if I were to go and try to respond to all of those, it would only allow this digression of yours to further obscure the fact your response to my challenges was to simply change the subject and then throw out a lot more claims without evidence, as noted at the start of this post.
He knows cut and pastes from sites like “Sabbath Truth” but he doesn’t know the subject nor has he done any research on it.
 
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JSRG

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Yes, history just is all incorrect, we cant use any of it, its all fake news, lets see the source. Oops it comes from the church of Rome and those historians, must be all wrong.
To repeat myself:

I have noticed something repeatedly with you. You will post a bunch of incorrect information. Then when someone points out major problems with it, instead of actually responding to their points, you ignore it, and instead do one of the following:
1) Quickly change the subject
2) Throw out a bunch more unverified and inaccurate information (often a bunch of quotes you have clearly never bothered to verify)
3) Offer no reply at all


It is arguable whether this is #1 or #3. In either case, you do not respond to even one point I made.

Let us recap. You made a bunch of claims about Easter with no evidence. I pointed out how they were false and there wasn't proof. Rather than offer any evidence, you changed the subject and unleashed a torrent of quotes (that you just copied and did nothing to verify) and a bunch of other claims that you did not offer evidence for.

I noted how you didn't actually respond to what I said, but still did take a look at some of your quotes and their problems. Indeed, I pointed out how several of them were actually false. As in, the person you cited did not even say what you claimed they did. Even worse, one of those quotes I had pointed out to you in the past was false--admittedly, several years ago--and back then asked you to prove it by pointing to where one could find the work in question. Since you posted the same false quote, I did the same here, pointing to the work and asking you to show where it was.

Did you point to where it was said? No... but of course you couldn't, because it's a false quote. Did you acknowledge your errors? No. Instead you offered the post I just quoted in which you dodge everything, giving no response and refusing to admit the fact you made false statements about what people said.

Do you not care about accuracy? Do you not care about being truthful when quoting people?
 
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Hentenza

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Yes, history just is all incorrect, we cant use any of it, its all fake news, lets see the source. Oops it comes from the church of Rome and those historians, must be all wrong.
I have Ph.D in history and can tell you that your information is highly biased, your quotes are without context, and simply not true. BTW- I’m not a member of the RCC.
 
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Valletta

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Yes, history just is all incorrect, we cant use any of it, its all fake news, lets see the source. Oops it comes from the church of Rome and those historians, must be all wrong.
You've been challenged twice on your fake quotation: "In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94
To be taken seriously when you get something wrong correct it--every one of us has made mistakes and every one of us has been fooled about this or that.
As to your arguments, realize too that that pagan societies, such as the Romans, dominated huge areas of the world before Christians even existed. So many many things were first used by pagans, things like the cross as a symbol. In fact, the first usage of the word "Christians" was used by pagans, it is documented in the Bible. The name eventually was adopted by Christians. Because pagans wore robes doesn't mean that Jesus and the Apostles wished to be like the pagans because they also wore robes.
 
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