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What Seventh-Day Adventist Believe

SabbathBlessings

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It sadenenss me that you take a defensive position rather than help me understand.
I also wish you well.
Be blessed.
I offered, more than once....you seemed to dismiss the invitation so not more I can do. It requires two to participate.

Which topic would you like to tackle first? If you can share your belief from Scripture on this topic that would give us a starting point as well.

I am happy to go through any of these doctrines you mentioned and support it by Scripture, why don't you start with one and show me by Scripture why you think its not true. Maybe we can come to a meeting of the minds, who knows.

We do not hide from any doctrines and again would be happy to defend each one of them from the Bible alone. It would be nice if one would actually ask.

The invitation is still open...
 
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tall73

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I offered, more than once....you seemed to dismiss the invitation so not more I can do. It requires two to participate.







The invitation is still open...

Great,

Please start by spelling out, step by step, how you arrive at 1844 from the texts involved. Please do so in text, here in the forum, for folks to read, not just a video.

Then we can see if it matches the Bible.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Great,

Please start by spelling out, step by step, how you arrive at 1844 from the texts involved. Please do so in text, here in the forum, for folks to read, not just a video.

Then we can see if it matches the Bible.
Hi Tall,

I would be happy to do so if I thought the question being asked was for the right reasons and truly wanting to understand our perspective. Considering our past conversations on similar topics and how we interpret Scripture, like for example, when God directly tells us to join ourselves to the LORD and you changed that to join Israel, I think trying to reason will be fruitless. Reasoning only works when one trusts the Scriptures, especially when its something directly spoken by God just as He stated and is open to hearing another perspective. Since that hasn’t been my past experience and I am not interested in a long dragged out debate that goes no where, I think I will pass on your offer. My post was addressed to another poster, but thanks for the invite. Be well.
 
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tall73

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Hi Tall,

I would be happy to do so if I thought the question being asked was for the right reasons and truly wanting to understand our perspective.

The question was so that people can see the Adventist perspective, and whether it matches Scripture.

Considering our past conversations on similar topics and how we interpret Scripture, like for example, when God directly tells us to join ourselves to the LORD and you changed that to join Israel,
People can certainly read that thread to see what was said, and I hope they do. I agreed they were joining themselves to the Lord. I also looked at the various statement of what that involved in Isaiah, and the broader fulfillment.

But that is a distraction from this opportunity to spell out the Adventist perspective on 1844.

I think trying to reason will be fruitless. Reasoning only works when one trusts the Scriptures, especially when its something directly spoken by God just as He stated and is open to hearing another perspective.
Since that hasn’t been my past experience and I am not interested in a long dragged out debate that goes no where, I think I will pass on your offer. My post was addressed to another poster, but thanks for the invite. Be well.

Even if you think I am not sincere, you have the opportunity to tell others. Or any other Adventist can spell it out.

Remember what you indicated:

We do not hide from any doctrines and again would be happy to defend each one of them from the Bible alone

But the Adventist view on 1844 is so convoluted I don't think that is likely to happen.
 
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reddogs

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Thank you for sharing! However, this list by Steve Wohlberg carefully tailors the language to find common ground, leaving out the highly specific, distinctive doctrines that define Seventh-day Adventism and set it apart from mainstream Protestant Christianity. These are the "Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment", the prophetic authority of Ellen G. White, the state of the dead " soul sleep "and most important, the
final days of Earth's history, a global enforcement of Sunday worship will constitute the mark of the beast for those who consciously choose human tradition over God's holy seventh-day Sabbath.


Honestly, i'm not sure why he left all of this off his list. Transparency is vital.

Be blessed!
I posted the Investigative Judgement doctrine so you can go over it and ask questions as you wish, and see what we find.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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People can certainly read that thread to see what was said, and I hope they do. I agreed they were joining themselves to the Lord.
That's not what you said previously...
I also looked at the various statement of what that involved in Isaiah, and the broader fulfillment.
Yes, I find it interesting people will readily accept the prophecy of Isa 53 applies to them with a big AMEN and Isaiah 54 and readily accept the invitation in Isaiah 55 for everyone to accept the invitation from the LORD to come to the waters but then refuses the invitation from the LORD made to everyone in Isa 56 to join themselves to the LORD and serve Him, because they do not like the LORDS terms.
But that is a distraction from this opportunity to spell out the Adventist perspective on 1844.



Even if you think I am not sincere, you have the opportunity to tell others. Or any other Adventist can spell it out.

Remember what you indicated:



But the Adventist view on 1844 is so convoluted I don't think that is likely to happen.
Ok, I'll do so later when I am back if I have time or later this week. Its not convoluted, but does require to allow the Bible to interpret itself.
 
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reddogs

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Hi Tall,

I would be happy to do so if I thought the question being asked was for the right reasons and truly wanting to understand our perspective. Considering our past conversations on similar topics and how we interpret Scripture, like for example, when God directly tells us to join ourselves to the LORD and you changed that to join Israel, I think trying to reason will be fruitless. Reasoning only works when one trusts the Scriptures, especially when its something directly spoken by God just as He stated and is open to hearing another perspective. Since that hasn’t been my past experience and I am not interested in a long dragged out debate that goes no where, I think I will pass on your offer. My post was addressed to another poster, but thanks for the invite. Be well.
Tall has some feelings that have caused him to be how he is, thats all I can say..
 
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tall73

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Tall has some feelings that have caused him to be how he is, thats all I can say..
Good to see you reddogs, and I certainly have no ill feelings towards you. Nor was my decision to leave the Adventist church about feelings.

It was the church I grew up in, learned of Christ, learned of the Scriptures, and the only church my children had known. Leaving meant friends and family thought I was a heretic. If it was about feelings I certainly would have stayed. A number of ministers encouraged me to stay, as they did, though they could no longer agree with all the doctrines. I don't think that would have been honest.

Thank you for starting the thread. You have never been one to shy away from Biblical discussion. So we can discuss.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Tall has some feelings that have caused him to be how he is, thats all I can say..
Yes, there will always be people joining and leaving until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Its seems the ones who leave never leave to greener pastures, but spend so much time talking about what they left. If I left and found something better thats where my focus would be, but thats me.

By the way reddogs- Happy Sabbath!
 
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tall73

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Maria Billingsley

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reddogs

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Good to see you reddogs, and I certainly have no ill feelings towards you. Nor was my decision to leave the Adventist church about feelings.

It was the church I grew up in, learned of Christ, learned of the Scriptures, and the only church my children had known. Leaving meant friends and family thought I was a heretic. If it was about feelings I certainly would have stayed. A number of ministers encouraged me to stay, as they did, though they could no longer agree with all the doctrines. I don't think that would have been honest.

Thank you for starting the thread. You have never been one to shy away from Biblical discussion. So we can discuss.
Well it leaves one in a bad place Tall, where does one go when they leave the truth. To the Catholic Church no truth there, the Charismatics I would say not, to Lutheran who held on to some aspects of the apostate church, to the strict Calvinist with their unbending ideas of predestination, well maybe the Baptist but then every Baptist church teaches different depending on the preacher. There is no place to go to find truth, I can only put you in my prayers for Gods mercy and grace..
 
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reddogs

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Thank you for sharing! However, this list by Steve Wohlberg carefully tailors the language to find common ground, leaving out the highly specific, distinctive doctrines that define Seventh-day Adventism and set it apart from mainstream Protestant Christianity. These are the "Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment", the prophetic authority of Ellen G. White, the state of the dead " soul sleep "and most important, the
final days of Earth's history, a global enforcement of Sunday worship will constitute the mark of the beast for those who consciously choose human tradition over God's holy seventh-day Sabbath.


Honestly, i'm not sure why he left all of this off his list. Transparency is vital.

Be blessed!
As for the 'prophetic authority of Ellen G. White', I always ask this question. Was Martin Luther led by God, and how do you know...

You judge by their works and allow the Holy Spirit to unveil the answer, and each person must do that whether John Calvin, John Wycliffe, Huldrych Zwingli, etc... You have to look closely and study carefully and decide for oneself.
 
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reddogs

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Here is a great explanation I found in my notes and well put together understanding of this topic:

Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21

Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12

But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead


Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.

Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.


It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.



The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as ל ְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…...
 
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reddogs

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...The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.


English Name | Hebrew Name

The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim

The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai

The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh

The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim

The Spirit of God | Ruach-El


Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).


When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.



Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.


Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.


Further Evidence

Acts 2:29

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34

For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13

And no man has ascended up to heaven

Here is a site with even more... The State of the Dead: From Death to Life - Adventist.org
 
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reddogs

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Here is from a essay by one of our posters, Palehorse on this:

Many people scan throught the Bible and look for a verse to support a preconceived point such as when it comes to what is a soul, but disregard what the Bible tells them.
Lets begin by taking a look at Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now, to begin with, I think Christians can examine the verse and agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is. While the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings used, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

Now some points on this verse in question:

1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.

2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?

3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.

4) I think the crux of some arguments are going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same?That is a very simple answer; the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".


I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rules of hermeneutics; we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

The Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.

Now there are many verses in Psalms where David is talking about his enemies seeking him to destroy his soul.

Psalms 40:14 - Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalms 35:4 - Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.

When we look to the rules of hermeneutics we see that we must interpret the means of obscure passages with those that are clearer. As such, we have a verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

To add a verse to further support the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Now lets address the Matt 10:28 verse again for a small point that might have been overlooked: Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'

To say that the soul does not die or drifts off somewhere when a person dies we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or is there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, here are the definitions from Strong:


1) breath

a) the breath of life

1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animals

b) of men

b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.
 
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reddogs

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Now lets look at the Old Testament and see what it shows..

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Psalm 6:2-5
2 Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak: O Lord, heal me; for my bones are vexed.
3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O Lord, how long?
4 Return, O Lord, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Psalm 7:1-5
1 O Lord my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.
3 O Lord my God, If I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands;
4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:)
5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

Psalm 30:1-3
1 I will extol thee, O Lord; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me.
2 O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.
3 O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is its end. When life ends, it ends.

Psalm 33:18-22
18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;
19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waiteth for the Lord: he is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
22 Let thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Psalm 40:13-14
13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me: O Lord, make haste to help me.
14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Psalm 49:12-15
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Psalm 56:12-13
12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee.
13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Psalm 78:49-51
49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Psalm 86:1-3
1 Bow down thine ear, O Lord, hear me: for I am poor and needy.
2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Psalm 89:47-48
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Psalm 116:9
7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee.
8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling.
9 I will walk before the Lord in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Psalm 119:174-176
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isaiah 38:16-19
16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live.
17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isaiah 53:12
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.
 
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reddogs

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Matthew 16:25-26
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2:27-31
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3:22-23
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:45-57
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.
 
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