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Paul's argument against the idea that water baptism saves. (Implied)

Dave...

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You mean, post #67, correct?


What I denied on my post #72 was that back on your post #26 to concretecamper you said, "The Bible is sufficient", and I asked for the Book, Chapter and verse in Scripture where it says this, and you posted 2 Tim. 3: 14-17, correct? Well, my denial is that I don't believe the 2nd Timothy passages you quoted says "the Bible is sufficient" at all, do you not agree?


Well Dave, even when you highlighted those passages I didn't see where they said, "The Bible is sufficient". Then on my post#73 I asked you if these words ("The Bible is sufficient") are found anywhere in Scripture, and if so, to please provide the book, chapter and verse so I could look them up. Then I went on to say, if you cannot provide the book, chapter or verse, would it be safe to say that the words you posted, "The Bible is sufficient" are not in the Bible, but just your own personal words. Since you did not or could not, I can only conclude the latter.


To be honest Dave, apology or no apology, you were not very clear at all, for you failed to back up with Scripture your claim. However, here is another chance for you to provide the book, chapter or verse where it says in Scripture "The Bible is Sufficient". Thank you for your patience.

Have a Blessed Day!
Ok, now I see.

Well, if I remember correctly, it's the KJV that uses the word 'sufficient' in that passage. But I'm going to guess that you were hanging your hat on the word "Bible". Your claim is that the Bible never says the Bible is sufficient, correct? That's what this whole chase was all about? Did I steal your closing argument? It's really not much of an argument as the words Bible, Scriptures, and Word of God all means the same thing to me. I don't include Catholicism and it's tradition with that, as it has already failed the test when compared to God's Word, the Bible. Remember, Jesus, when tested by Satan, said? it is tradition? No. He said it is written. Satan cannot beat the Word of God. Lean not unto...

Dave
 
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Lukaris

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Galatians 3:26-29 is speaking of a spiritual baptism by faith, not water baptism. Did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing in faith? Can any of you answer those questions? What are we baptized into with/by the Holy Spirit?

Dave
I received the Holy Spirit by grace through faith because I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior who calls us to live by faith by His commandments ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We are baptized into Christ his likeness in which we are to try to imitate in this life. When we die, this carries to in the likeness of his death & resurrection. He took on the Baptism of John & we should do likewise if we can. ( Ephesians 4:1-7, Romans 6:1-12, Galatians 3:26-29, John 3:5-7).
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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I know the distinctions involved with scriptures I cited like Acts 10:44-48 & that the Holy Spirit fell on those who believed & then were baptized with water. God baptized the Israelites into Moses when the Red Sea was parted and was displeased when their faith wavered ( Exodus 14:26-31, 1 Corinthians 10:1-6). I also mentioned the distinctions when I cited 1 John 5:1-13 etc.

Sacramental worship is meant for participation of the believer in the way the Lord tells us ( John 4:24 etc.) with the community of believers ( Ephesians 4:1-6 etc.), & we need to know what this involves ( Galatians 3:26-29 etc.). I am speaking of those who believe in the role of the sacraments. I believe there are other valid faith understandings but Orthodoxy is sacramental ( like Catholicism, Lutheranism etc.).
Well stated! Luther tied all this up nicely with his "Flood Prayer", which he added when he translated the baptismal liturgy from Latin to German. We maintain it's use to this day as we do with the exorcism right contained in our Liturgy.

Flood Prayer from Lutheran Service Book:
Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name(s)) according to Your boundless mercy and bless (him/her/them) with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in (him/her/them) which has been inherited from Adam and which they have committed since, would be drowned and die. Grant that (he/she/they) be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, (he/she/they) would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.​
 
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Dave...

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I received the Holy Spirit by grace through faith because I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior

That's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know you disagree, but it's true. The error you're making is assuming that word 'baptism' is always speaking about water baptism. The false systems love to play on that and claim power for the types that point to spiritual truth. That keeps their false hierarchy in power and money. Just trust the Word of God, and approach it that way. Leave the systems at home and listen to God's Word. Don't try to box it in with systems, let God speak to you and He will show you.

Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit places us into Christ. We in Him, and He in us. A spiritual immersion. It's a baptism by faith.

We are baptized into Christ his likeness in which we are to try to imitate in this life.

Yes, when we are placed into Christ, we strive to be more Christlike, completely yielding to the Holy Spirit and God's will. That's what the filling does. It's not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, it's being more under His control, yielding our every day decisions to God's will.

When we die, this carries to in the likeness of his death & resurrection.

When we are spiritually placed into Him, we die with Him (Galatians 2:20) and are raised us with Him (Ephesians 2:6). This does not happen in or from water baptism, this happens when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that 'placing into with/by the Holy Spirit' that results from faith.

Paul describes it beautifully in Romans 6:3-11. This is not describing the result of being placed into water, but it is speaking of our being spiritually being placed into Christ by faith. Paul, when speaking of the indwelling in Romans 8:9-11 says the same thing. With the Spirit in us is the life, without the Spirit in us there is not life. Compare the two and you'll see.

He took on the Baptism of John & we should do likewise if we can. ( Ephesians 4:1-7, Romans 6:1-12, Galatians 3:26-29, John 3:5-7).

These verses don't have anything to do with water baptism. John 3:5-7 point to Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, see John 3:13-16. Romans and Galatians say the opposite. Faith, not works save. Both those passages are speaking of the Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:1-7, again, one faith, one placing into, one immersion. What places us into Christ (the "one placing into" of Ephesians 4:5)? What makes us spiritually one with Jesus? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Life, which results from faith. Remember, Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the *Life.

I know you've probably been taught your whole life that those verses are talking about water baptism, but that's simply not true. With water baptism, you're speaking of earthy things. But what Jesus is trying to show you are heavenly things that those earthy things point to. Just let Him.

Dave
 
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Dan Perez

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So you were Baptized in the name of Paul? Ok
And did I say THAT I was WATER. //. HYDOR , BAPTIZED. WHERE when I was 17 years old

and learned about DISPENSATION and PRE- MIL. AND PRE- TRI and know what it MEANS and today I am an. adult teacher their !!

dan p
 
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Lukaris

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That's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know you disagree, but it's true. The error you're making is assuming that word 'baptism' is always speaking about water baptism. The false systems love to play on that and claim power for the types that point to spiritual truth. That keeps their false hierarchy in power and money. Just trust the Word of God, and approach it that way. Leave the systems at home and listen to God's Word. Don't try to box it in with systems, let God speak to you and He will show you.

Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit places us into Christ. We in Him, and He in us. A spiritual immersion. It's a baptism by faith.



Yes, when we are placed into Christ, we strive to be more Christlike, completely yielding to the Holy Spirit and God's will. That's what the filling does. It's not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, it's being more under His control, yielding our every day decisions to God's will.



When we are spiritually placed into Him, we die with Him (Galatians 2:20) and are raised us with Him (Ephesians 2:6). This does not happen in or from water baptism, this happens when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that 'placing into with/by the Holy Spirit' that results from faith.

Paul describes it beautifully in Romans 6:3-11. This is not describing the result of being placed into water, but it is speaking of our being spiritually being placed into Christ by faith. Paul, when speaking of the indwelling in Romans 8:9-11 says the same thing. With the Spirit in us is the life, without the Spirit in us there is not life. Compare the two and you'll see.



These verses don't have anything to do with water baptism. John 3:5-7 point to Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, see John 3:13-16. Romans and Galatians say the opposite. Faith, not works save. Both those passages are speaking of the Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:1-7, again, one faith, one placing into, one immersion. What places us into Christ (the "one placing into" of Ephesians 4:5)? What makes us spiritually one with Jesus? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Life, which results from faith. Remember, Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the *Life.

I know you've probably been taught your whole life that those verses are talking about water baptism, but that's simply not true. With water baptism, you're speaking of earthy things. But what Jesus is trying to show you are heavenly things that those earthy things point to. Just let Him.

Dave
I know water doesn’t save us as I have repeatedly said. Why is water so wrong to apply as an outward witness in our baptism since it is so prevalent in the Bible? In John 3:5-7 ( for example.), I believe, the Lord is telling us everything. We break water as we are born into fallen existence. We receive the Spirit and are immersed as a sign of spiritual rebirth of being born again. The water is a sign of our being sealed in the Spirit upon putting our trust in the Lord ( Ephesians 1:12-14).

As I have also stated, the sacrament of baptism is a form of witness of telling our fellow believers that we believe what they believe ( Ephesians 4:1-6). We are warned throughout the Bible to not bear false witness ( Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 19:5, Proverbs 19:9, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 15:1-20 etc.).
 

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Ok, now I see.
Nice!
Well, if I remember correctly, it's the KJV that uses the word 'sufficient' in that passage.
Well, you are not sounding so sure about that, and I'm confident we both know why. :)
But I'm going to guess that you were hanging your hat on the word "Bible".
You are the one that said (or hung your hat) the "Bible" is sufficient, correct?
Your claim is that the Bible never says the Bible is sufficient, correct?
That is my claim, and asked you to show otherwise. Still waiting on that by the way.
That's what this whole chase was all about?
Nope....Just trying to get to the truth.
Did I steal your closing argument?
Nope, for there was no argument to steal.
It's really not much of an argument as the words Bible, Scriptures, and Word of God all means the same thing to me.
Where does it say that?
I don't include Catholicism and it's tradition with that, as it has already failed the test when compared to God's Word, the Bible.
Would this be your personal non-authoritative, fallible opinion?
Remember, Jesus, when tested by Satan, said? it is tradition? No. He said it is written. Satan cannot beat the Word of God. Lean not unto...
Yes, when Jesus said this, He was quoting from the Old Testament, mostly from Deuteronomy. Would you agree? And would you also agree, this is because the New Testament/Bible would not be fully compiled until the late 4th century.


Have a Blessed day!
 
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Dave...

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I know water doesn’t save us as I have repeatedly said. Why is water so wrong to apply as an outward witness in our baptism since it is so prevalent in the Bible? In John 3:5-7 ( for example.), I believe, the Lord is telling us everything. We break water as we are born into fallen existence. We receive the Spirit and are immersed as a sign of spiritual rebirth of being born again. The water is a sign of our being sealed in the Spirit upon putting our trust in the Lord ( Ephesians 1:12-14).

As I have also stated, the sacrament of baptism is a form of witness of telling our fellow believers that we believe what they believe ( Ephesians 4:1-6). We are warned throughout the Bible to not bear false witness ( Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 19:5, Proverbs 19:9, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 15:1-20 etc.).

OK, I must have misunderstood you. My bad. It's a baptism by faith that places us into Christ Jesus. There are people, even in this thread, who believe that water baptism initiates the Spirit baptism. This teaching makes people think that the act of water baptism is the first step of salvation. And then they teach that they must then maintain that status of grace with the sacraments and works. And then, when they fall short of the matter, they teach that a person makes up the difference in a place called Purgatory. Nothing could be more offensive to the Gospel truth than that. It's deeply offensive.

By your post above, you seem to be in agreement with me and what I believe the Bible teaches. Again sorry. The Marxism word games are constant, so I have my guard up. Sometime I think that Catholicism invented Marxism.

Dave
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

No. It's not.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happened on Pentecost. Because that's what the Bible actually says.
 

Dave...

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No. It's not.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happened on Pentecost. Because that's what the Bible actually says.

Yes, it happened on Pentecost, but it did not end at Pentecost. More accurately, the Bible says that baptism with/by the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost. Show me in the Bible where it ended, and I'll show you that a believer cannot be saved without being placed into Christ with the Holy Spirit, even today. Pentecost was the birth of the Church, not the end of it.

1 Corinthians 12:13,18,27 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."
 
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Dave...

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Your seem to forget that he asks the above in the same chapter wherein he declares “as many as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ, alleluia” and after explaining in 1 Corinthians how we are united to the Body of Christ, the Church, and partake of that Body.

Translation. "As many as have been placed into Christ have put on Christ." How are we placed into/baptized into Christ? By/with one Spirit. How do we receive that Spirit? Faith.

So attempting to invoke St. Paul in an anti-sacramental screed is eisegesis per se. It also presupposes erroneously that Baptism and Communion are works of the Law, which is preposterous; the New Testament makes it clear these are means of grace, of receiving the Spirit, and of obtaining remission of sins (and Christians can still sin despite not being under the Mosaic law).

And here we have it.

Hey Lukaris, look at the highlighted part of Liturgist's quote. In case you doubted me when I stated that according to the Catholic, he believes that water baptism enters him into a process of grace for justification that continues to be acquired and maintained through the sacraments. Then Purgatory, which never existed. All of this is to keep the person subservient to a hierarchy that uses it for power and money.

When justification is a process, that's a works based salvation and is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word games, always the word games.


Dave
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, it happened on Pentecost, but it did not end at Pentecost. More accurately, the Bible says that baptism with/by the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost.

Where does the Bible say that "baptism with the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost". What happened ON Pentecost was the baptism with the Holy Spirit foretold by John the Baptist. That is what the text says. Explicitly.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hey Lukaris, look at the highlighted part of Liturgist's quote. In case you doubted me when I stated that according to the Catholic, he believes that water baptism enters him into a process of grace for justification that continues to be acquired and maintained through the sacraments

I am a Orthodox Christian - I am Catholic in the sense of Universal (according to the whole) referred to in the Nicene Creed - not Roman Catholic. Please verify that you understand that.

It is an extreme frustration to see Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics being grouped together in such a manner that denies the historic agency of the Orthodox Christians and our significant differences that have persisted with Rome since their theology entered what they define as the “Scholastic Era” after St. John of Damascus (who is regarded as the last Early Church Father by Rome but not by the Orthodox).

Likewise there are also substantial differences between Orthodox sacramental theology and that of Lutherans and Anglicans, which we would disagree with except for the fact that we tend to get along, even better than with Roman Catholics since there is no elephant in the room in the form of Papal Supremacy or Papal Infallibility.

Indeed it could be argued that the Orthodox Church lacks sacramental theology per se in that we don’t actually use the term Sacrament in our own internal discussions; Baptism being a sacred mystery of the church but this would be pedantry in my view.

At any rate, please refrain from selectively quoting my posts in an attempt to make a point to a fellow Orthodox Christian ( my pious friend @Lukaris ) as this is a kind of eisegesis.
 
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The Liturgist

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In case you doubted me when I stated that according to the Catholic, he believes that water baptism enters him into a process of grace for justification that continues to be acquired and maintained through the sacraments. Then Purgatory, which never existed. All of this is to keep the person subservient to a hierarchy that uses it for power and money.

This is a complete mischaracterization. I never used the word “justification” and I do not believe in Purgatory and I require you to retract this statement immediately.

Purgatory is not a component of Orthodox doctrine and never has been.

We pray for the dead, but not on the basis of delivery from purgatory, the existence of which we reject. Rather, our reasons for praying for the dead are an appeal to the unlimited mercy of Christ, which by the way provides a means of salvation, as I sought to explain, that does not require water baptism - rather baptism which is both in water and in the Spirit, which is a unified event, and can be conferred by any Christian, is the ordinary means of reception of this grace, but there are many other forms.

Likewise martyrs are baptized in their own blood.

And Christ may save anyone who He desires. There is no legalism in this respect, for we believe God is infinitely merciful, and infinitely loving. We also reject the Augustinian idea that infants who die before baptism are damned.

For example if one dies before receiving Baptism, one is baptized by their desire, which is why catechumens get a full Orthodox funeral (whereas those who terminate their own lives without having a mental illness, which is an extreme minority but it does happen, would usually not, although perhaps an exception might be available in the case of captured pilots or intelligence officers who would face torture that could be a threat to national security, frankly I don’t know, but ordinarily if a sane person kills themselves that precludes a full funeral, although all deceased persons are entitled to an abbreviated service called “the Trisagion prayers” for the hymn.

Our faith is that Christ will save us, but like most Christians, we believe that Baptism and Holy Communion are the primary means of grace for the laity.

I strongly suggest that to understand the Orthodox theology of the mysteries of the Church, which is what we call the sacraments (which are usually counted as seven by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox; the Assyrian Church of the East which is closely related to us also counts seven but their list differs from ours) but we also have other blessings which some count as well, essentially any kind of blessing such as the memorial service or the consecration of a church are all grouped together in a book called the Trebnik or Euchologion.

The focus of Orthodox theology is on Communion, not Baptism - we desire to be in communion with each other, with the Early Church, and with Christ our God, but Baptism is the ordinary means of the remission of sins and of the formal reception of the Holy Spirit (who has already acted to move one towards Baptism, but Baptism and Chrismation, the Seal of the Holy Spirit, ensure that one is Baptized in the Holy Spirit).

You are correct that ordinarily, this is the beginning of a lifelong process of reception of Grace through the sacred mysteries, but there are cases where people have been unable, for various reasons, to access the sacraments in ideal conditions and yet are still regarded as saved. For example, some of the great Hermits such as St. Anthony the Great or the Stylites (who literally lived atop pillars) would not have been in a position to receive the Eucharist in the ordinary way at an ordinary frequency due to the specific nature of their vocation, but were still very much a part of the communion of the church. Unlike in the Roman church, in the East it normally takes two or more to celebrate Communion, so its not possible for a legalistic regimen, which indeed even Rome acknowledged to some extent in special cases (such as the Missa Sicca or “dry mass” used by hermits). So the Roman church itself is much less legalistic than you argue, especially today.

The important thing to understand, where Luther’s arguments can be helpful, is the idea of Gottesdienst; as I said before - while we Orthodox do not deny that there is a sacrifice in the Eucharist of praise and of bread and wine, we are not re-sacrificing Christ but are participating in His sacrifice, that is to say, receiving something God did for us (this being a point of near-convergence between Lutheran and Orthodox perspectives; I don’t know if Lutherans would agree that the Liturgy is a “sacrifice of praise” or that the bread and wine are sacrificed, but my point is that the primary sacrifice that we are partaking of in anamnesis (the Greek word translated into early Modern English as “remembrance” but more correctly interpreted as something like “recapitulation” is the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which He formalized by offering His Body and Blood to the Holy Apostles and commanded them to continue doing. Just as he commanded baptism.

Which is what this is really about - we are following the instructions of Christ, not legalistically, but spiritually, but retaining the elements of bread and wine, which become the Body and Blood, and the water which becomes the Water in the Jordan on which the Holy Spirit descends, as the New Testament clearly asserts.

And while there are a number of Orthodox specific nuances which you should comment on rather than dismissing me as “the Catholic” and falsely claiming I believe in Purgatory and other doctrines which Orthodox Christians absolutely reject and regard as extreme errors, on a par with the filioque, errors that preclude full communion with the Roman Catholic Church, the majority of historic Christian denominations including even Zwinglians, members of the Christian Church/Churches of Christ/Disciples of Christ and low church Anglicans regard baptism in water and the spirit, as a unified event, as an important and appropriate activity in the spiritual life of Christians.

The position you appear to be taking with regards to opposition to water baptism, assuming you are opposed to the idea of it, is an extremely fringe position; to my knowledge only Quakers, the Salvation Army and a few other denominations take such a view. If you could clarify your position that would be helpful.

Regarding the specifics of Eastern Orthodox theology, I recommend An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus, or more recently, The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Ware by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware (which clarifies the distinctions between our theology and those of the Western church which did not exist at the time of St. John of Damascus, which predated the Scholastic trend in the Roman church).
 
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The Liturgist

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Translation. "As many as have been placed into Christ have put on Christ." How are we placed into/baptized into Christ? By/with one Spirit. How do we receive that Spirit? Faith.

Christ commanded us to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the Apostles baptized in water and the Spirit, and we still do that. Or would you have us invalidate all references to the immersion of Christians in the New Testament along with Matthew 28:19? What else should we set aside in addition to that?

Your interpretation appears to be at odds with Anglican, Lutheran Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, other Reformed, most Restorationist and most Evangelical theology aside from Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology, and your attempt to characterize me as a Roman Catholic is particularly unwelcome in light of this fact, given that my statement concerning baptism would be uncontroversial among a great many Protestants.

Indeed I would be specifically interested in the views of my friends @Hentenza @hedrick @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @Mark Quayle @Jipsah @PloverWing and @seeking.IAM on this issue since we disagree on a number of points but I don’t believe any of us has an absolute objection to the idea of baptism as being part of the ordinary course of a life in Christ, even if we disagree on what it is, what it means and so on, and I would ideally like to try to achieve some reconciliation and a minimal sense as to how we interpret Matthew 28:19.

Mere Christianity by CS Lewis I find can be quite helpful in such dialogue.

One thing I suspect we’d all agree on is that anyone can do it (in Eastern Orthodoxy and many other liturgical denominations and some non-liturgical denominations one needs a Presbyter or Bishop for Holy Communion but not Baptism).
 

Mark Quayle

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I can't speak much for others; I'm not exactly Reformed, though closer to Reformed Baptist than Presbyterian. (The reformed and calvinists agree with me on most things. :p

To my thinking, at the core, water baptism is a statement, a declaration before men of my standing in Christ. I don't see it as a means of salvation, but, as it works out, it is a means of grace all the same--that I can't really describe well, except by analogy: it is like saying, "I do", in the wedding ceremony. And in the circles in which I grew up (Methodist, mostly, though not necessarily by name) and even now, the Church's responsibility is invoked as to "seeing it done hereafter", as far as encouragement, holding-to-account, instruction and discipline.

In the case of the Ethiopian Eunich, I imagine there was no congregation, but only the answer of the conscience to the question of to whom does he belong. Nevertheless, it obviously was a sober undertaking. So I would say, yes, it can be any believer "officiating". However, the Ethiopian was not part of a congregation as such, as I read it.

As for the question of "anybody can do it", yes and no. In the last many years it has become a less serious thing, and I decry this. But so has taking the elements of communion. It's not a question of who can officiate, but why they are permitted. It should not be someone frivolous or untrustworthy.

The same with communion. To me, it is a very serious matter, and as such, like baptism, the invoking of the persons of the Trinity, along with the seriousness of the partaking "worthily" (as though any of us is worthy) communicates not only the fellowship between the believers present (and that, by the mercy of God that any is included), but with God himself. I almost despise the "feelings" as a foundation for doctrine or meaning, substance, to what is going on in these things, but I have to say, with a serious water baptism and with serious communion, there is an attending to (or toward) the very atmosphere of our Heavenly communion with God in person.

I also have to say that the whole of scripture feeds into this. I can't go to just one passage and say it is enough to prove what I believe about it. But what I have seen is that it is a means of grace, and that, not at all mechanical in nature. And not to sell the Reformed Covenant theology, but the One Covenant that has been in force since the beginning, and is consummated in Revelation 21, is touched on in Water Baptism, whether symbolically or otherwise. God with us.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Translation. "As many as have been placed into Christ have put on Christ." How are we placed into/baptized into Christ? By/with one Spirit. How do we receive that Spirit? Faith.



And here we have it.

Hey Lukaris, look at the highlighted part of Liturgist's quote. In case you doubted me when I stated that according to the Catholic, he believes that water baptism enters him into a process of grace for justification that continues to be acquired and maintained through the sacraments. Then Purgatory, which never existed. All of this is to keep the person subservient to a hierarchy that uses it for power and money.

When justification is a process, that's a works based salvation and is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The word games, always the word games.


Dave
It is not about "Catholic" tyrany. If it were, they would not accept our Lutheran Baptism, Orthodox, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc., nor we theirs.

It is about Christian Unity. If your baptism was done properly, following the Trinitarian formula, guess what? You are a member of the "one holy catholic (small c) and Apostolic Church whether you like it or not.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Christ commanded us to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the Apostles baptized in water and the Spirit, and we still do that. Or would you have us invalidate all references to the immersion of Christians in the New Testament along with Matthew 28:19? What else should we set aside in addition to that?

Your interpretation appears to be at odds with Anglican, Lutheran Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, other Reformed, most Restorationist and most Evangelical theology aside from Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology, and your attempt to characterize me as a Roman Catholic is particularly unwelcome in light of this fact, given that my statement concerning baptism would be uncontroversial among a great many Protestants.

Indeed I would be specifically interested in the views of my friends @Hentenza @hedrick @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @Mark Quayle @Jipsah @PloverWing and @seeking.IAM on this issue since we disagree on a number of points but I don’t believe any of us has an absolute objection to the idea of baptism as being part of the ordinary course of a life in Christ, even if we disagree on what it is, what it means and so on, and I would ideally like to try to achieve some reconciliation and a minimal sense as to how we interpret Matthew 28:19.

Mere Christianity by CS Lewis I find can be quite helpful in such dialogue.

One thing I suspect we’d all agree on is that anyone can do it (in Eastern Orthodoxy and many other liturgical denominations and some non-liturgical denominations one needs a Presbyter or Bishop for Holy Communion but not Baptism).
In Lutheranism, anyone may baptize in an emergency. Scripture tells us it is a means of grace, and to deny that is denying that God is so full of grace, and gives it so freely, why would we try to limit the generosity of our benevolent Lord and accept all that gifts that He offers to us?

As I posted above, baptism is about Christian unity, not about subjugation to the authority of one particular Church; rather, unity in Christ. and His Church.

From: GUIDELINES FOR CONGREGATIONAL AND PASTORAL PRACTICE LUTHERAN CHURCH—CANADA

1780658799419.png
 
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Dave...

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Where does the Bible say that "baptism with the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost". What happened ON Pentecost was the baptism with the Holy Spirit foretold by John the Baptist. That is what the text says. Explicitly.


John the Baptist prophesying about the Baptism with the Holy Spirit in the Gospels, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, all verified in Acts 1:4-5, Acts 11:16, Acts 19:1-6...**notice, these verses in Acts also connect the indwelling with the baptism. Like with Acts 19:1-6...

Acts 19:1-6 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

You can also make that same connection with the words 'Promise of the Father'. What promises? Ezekiel 36:26-27, Joel 2:28-29, which was directly quoted in Acts by Peter Acts 2:16-21, and is the same promise spoken of in Hebrews 11:39, that all the physically dead OT heroes of faith had not received before they died. That's why they were kept in Abrahams bosom until Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension (Romans 3:25-26). And "made perfect" with all those above ground at the same time Hebrews 11:40. That Promise is basically the Holy Spirit.

The 'placing into' by Jesus with the Holy Spirit was not only prophesied by John the Baptist, but also Jesus Himself many times, these are speaking of the indwelling, the cause of the baptism/placing into/spiritual immersion with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Romans 8:9-11. All point to the same time and act of the baptism with/by the Holy Spirit by Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

The rest of the Bible foretelling that same spiritual placing into/immersion speaking of the indwelling. Here are a few, I'm sure I can dig up many more. John 3:1-16, John 7:38-39, John 12:32, John 14:25-26, John 15:26, John 16:7-16,

What were they/we baptized/placed/immersed into? Jesus. The birth of the Church. Most people call Pentecost the birth of the Church without realizing why.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."
 
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PloverWing

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Indeed I would be specifically interested in the views of my friends @Hentenza @hedrick @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @Mark Quayle @Jipsah @PloverWing and @seeking.IAM on this issue since we disagree on a number of points but I don’t believe any of us has an absolute objection to the idea of baptism as being part of the ordinary course of a life in Christ, even if we disagree on what it is, what it means and so on, and I would ideally like to try to achieve some reconciliation and a minimal sense as to how we interpret Matthew 28:19.

I agree with the description of baptism (and the other sacraments) as means of grace: physical, visible ways that God's grace comes to us. God is not limited to the official sacraments; God can touch us through all manner of events and experiences. But the sacraments are rites in which the church has especially experienced God's grace.

Addressing the question in the title of this thread, I would not exactly say that baptism saves us. Instead, I would say that we are saved by the Incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Everything else is how we are called to respond to the work of Christ.

St Paul talks about many aspects of the Christian life -- many aspects of our response to Christ's work -- in his letters. We should believe that Christ's work actually happened, so that the whole thing makes sense at all. We can trust that Jesus loves us and forgives us, and we look forward to the healing of ourselves and all creation. We should be baptized, to become part of the visible community of Christians that God is creating in the world. We should pray and worship and share Holy Communion together. We should care for those in need around us, friends and strangers and enemies, as Jesus taught. All of this together is our response to the work of Christ.

Baptism is indeed the normal starting point of the Christian life. There are various extraordinary circumstances, and I believe God understands all of that. But ordinarily, we enter Christ's church through baptism. And, as @The Liturgist has pointed out, it is one of the few things that unites (most of) us as Christians. We disagree about an assortment of doctrines and practices, but we are baptized with water in the Triune Name of God. My church's baptismal liturgy contains these lines, quoted from St Paul: "There is one Body and one Spirit; there is one hope in God's call to us. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all."
 
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