Joy, tears and chants of "freedom" as Venezuelans - Bravo President Trump and his decisive actions

Hans Blaster · Thursday at 8:59 PM

Pommer said:
My tl;dr: Baby Boomers are getting on in years and aren’t at all happy with how things (that they’ve been in charge of, for thirty-years), are going.

Frankly, Gen-X are the worst of them. The rotten core of MAGA.

iluvatar5150 · Thursday at 9:12 PM

Lukaris said:
Conservatives see the leftist welfare state as an institution of permanent poverty and decay. There is an endless need to address poverty because the failed system perpetuates it. Welfare is meant to be a safety net or aid for the helpless disabled.

Probably much of our current disparities can be traced to the failed 1960s war on poverty and the war in Vietnam initiated by the post JFK democrats. It also seems like a disproportionate amount of the poor were drafted to fight which destroyed the working class.

California's estimated $180B welfare fraud is a warning for America | Fox News

California's massive welfare state has seen an estimated $180 billion stolen under Gov. Newsom, arguing the fraud epidemic is the inevitable result of policies that ignore human nature.

www.foxnews.com

If conservatives were correct on this point, wouldn't Republican-run states, with their more austere social programs, have lower rates of poverty?

Lukaris · Thursday at 9:22 PM

iluvatar5150 said:
If conservatives were correct on this point, wouldn't Republican-run states, with their more austere social programs, have lower rates of poverty?

I think regions and communities within states have to be studied.

Why is welfare fraud so rampant in blue states like California & Minnesota?

DAVID MARCUS: Blue state fraud scandals highlight shocking reality in red states

Minnesota faces fraud scandal under Gov. Tim Walz while California auditor finds billions in potential theft under Gavin Newsom's administration.

www.foxnews.com

iluvatar5150 · Thursday at 10:07 PM

Lukaris said:
I think regions and communities within states have to be studied.

Why is welfare fraud so rampant in blue states like California & Minnesota?

DAVID MARCUS: Blue state fraud scandals highlight shocking reality in red states

Minnesota faces fraud scandal under Gov. Tim Walz while California auditor finds billions in potential theft under Gavin Newsom's administration.

www.foxnews.com

Is it more common there? Or is it just being reported on more?

California is a big state, it would stand to reason that they would have more than most places.

Pommer · Thursday at 10:23 PM

Lukaris said:
I think regions and communities within states have to be studied.

Why is welfare fraud so rampant in blue states like California & Minnesota?

DAVID MARCUS: Blue state fraud scandals highlight shocking reality in red states

Minnesota faces fraud scandal under Gov. Tim Walz while California auditor finds billions in potential theft under Gavin Newsom's administration.

www.foxnews.com

If they didn’t have welfare programs then no one would be able to defraud them.
Brilliant in its way.

A2SG · Thursday at 10:44 PM

RDKirk said:
I'll give you an analysis.

From a MAGA point of view, the last decade doesn’t feel like normal political disagreement. It feels like a fast cultural shift pushed through institutions they don’t trust, like schools, media, universities, and large companies. So even when liberals see separate policy debates, MAGA often sees a single pattern: the country changing in ways they didn’t agree to and don’t recognize.

On immigration, they don’t just see a policy dispute. They see large and steady population change happening quickly, plus public messaging that often treats opposition as morally suspect. That combination gets interpreted as a loss of control over what the country is becoming.

On education, media, and workplace culture, they see strong emphasis on race, gender, and history framed in ways that often highlight America’s past harms. Many of them experience this as the country re-telling its story in a way that puts their identity in a negative light or treats it as something to move past rather than preserve.

They are being told racism must be eliminated and, oh, by the way, "Your language is racist, your history is racist, your art is racist, your philosophy is racist, your math is racist, and even your potato salad is racist. All that's gotta go!"

On gender issues, a lot of the reaction comes from specific, widely reported flashpoints. These include things like schools allowing students to socially transition without always informing parents, disputes over whether biological males can compete in girls’ sports, and high-profile stories about pronoun policies in schools and workplaces. They also hear debates over whether minors should be able to access puberty blockers or other medical transition treatments, and they often see these issues discussed in media as settled or morally obvious rather than openly debated. Even when the actual policies are limited or vary by state, the media coverage makes it feel like a fast national shift. Particularly when the administration presents them with actual Executive Orders to that effect.

They also react strongly to moments when conservative or rural Americans are described in very negative terms in politics or media. Things like “deplorables” or repeated framing of them as ignorant or backward get remembered and stacked together, reinforcing the sense that they are looked down on by cultural elites.

On protests and policing, events like the 2020 riots and “defund the police” rhetoric are often taken as signs that public order is weakening or that rules are applied unevenly depending on politics.

I'd say most of these issues are the usual generation gap stuff, things change and some people don't like it, so they grumble. That'd be normal in any other time in human history...

But. What makes MAGA different is one factor, and one factor alone: Donald Trump. He's taken this pretty normal grumbling about things changing and weaponized it, used the dissatisfaction to secure power for himself. This is no more obvious than during the January 6 attempted insurrection. He gave a speech in which he warned about dangerous times ahead, saying: "If you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore." Was Trump worried about these existential changes in society? I doubt it. I think he saw the potential to stay in power, and took it. He'd been trying to do that ever since he lost the election, and this was his last hail mary pass.

So, I don't think the left is failing to see the issues from the MAGA right's point of view so much as MAGA absolutely refuses to see anything else from any other point of view than Trump's.

RDKirk said:
Put together, their view is less “we reject change” and more “major institutions are changing the culture quickly, don’t share our values, and don’t treat us as legitimate participants in that change.”

Same thing, just wordier.

And the same thing pretty much every older generation has said throughout human history:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise." --Cicero (c. 60 BCE)(Note: While popularly attributed to the Roman statesman Cicero, this exact phrasing is actually a modern compilation of historical sentiments first published in 1907).

"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt." --Horace (c. 20 BCE) Book III of Odes

"The beardless youth... does not foresee what is useful, squandering his money." --Horace (1st Century BCE)

-- A2SG, and all this coming from someone born during the Kennedy administration.....

durangodawood · 2026-06-05T09:27:42-0500

RDKirk said:
I'll give you an analysis.

From a MAGA point of view, the last decade doesn’t feel like normal political disagreement. It feels like a fast cultural shift pushed through institutions they don’t trust, like schools, media, universities, and large companies. So even when liberals see separate policy debates, MAGA often sees a single pattern: the country changing in ways they didn’t agree to and don’t recognize.

On immigration, they don’t just see a policy dispute. They see large and steady population change happening quickly, plus public messaging that often treats opposition as morally suspect. That combination gets interpreted as a loss of control over what the country is becoming.

On education, media, and workplace culture, they see strong emphasis on race, gender, and history framed in ways that often highlight America’s past harms. Many of them experience this as the country re-telling its story in a way that puts their identity in a negative light or treats it as something to move past rather than preserve.

They are being told racism must be eliminated and, oh, by the way, "Your language is racist, your history is racist, your art is racist, your philosophy is racist, your math is racist, and even your potato salad is racist. All that's gotta go!"

On gender issues, a lot of the reaction comes from specific, widely reported flashpoints. These include things like schools allowing students to socially transition without always informing parents, disputes over whether biological males can compete in girls’ sports, and high-profile stories about pronoun policies in schools and workplaces. They also hear debates over whether minors should be able to access puberty blockers or other medical transition treatments, and they often see these issues discussed in media as settled or morally obvious rather than openly debated. Even when the actual policies are limited or vary by state, the media coverage makes it feel like a fast national shift. Particularly when the administration presents them with actual Executive Orders to that effect.

They also react strongly to moments when conservative or rural Americans are described in very negative terms in politics or media. Things like “deplorables” or repeated framing of them as ignorant or backward get remembered and stacked together, reinforcing the sense that they are looked down on by cultural elites.

On protests and policing, events like the 2020 riots and “defund the police” rhetoric are often taken as signs that public order is weakening or that rules are applied unevenly depending on politics.

Put together, their view is less “we reject change” and more “major institutions are changing the culture quickly, don’t share our values, and don’t treat us as legitimate participants in that change.”

This all does seem to ring true about how the maga right feels about various culture topics. But we really should ask: does the actual impact on typical peoples lives of these culture wars issues stack up to the hype that inundates them daily? I dont think so - especially not compared to global and structural standard of living realities. Emotion sells way better than understanding tho.

But Im not sure all of that really address what I was wondering about: liberal examples of:

Culture warriors seem to build their morality around issues that don't personally inconvenience them.

I suppose if people are just naturally disingenuous, then that would apply typically. But my sense is that on all sides most people have decent integrity, with good understanding of reality being the major deficit. Perhaps Im overgenerous here.

Fantine · 2026-06-05T09:28:36-0500

Lukaris said:
Conservatives see the leftist welfare state as an institution of permanent poverty and decay. There is an endless need to address poverty because the failed system perpetuates it. Welfare is meant to be a safety net or aid for the helpless disabled.

Probably much of our current disparities can be traced to the failed 1960s war on poverty and the war in Vietnam initiated by the post JFK democrats. It also seems like a disproportionate amount of the poor were drafted to fight which destroyed the working class.

California's estimated $180B welfare fraud is a warning for America | Fox News

California's massive welfare state has seen an estimated $180 billion stolen under Gov. Newsom, arguing the fraud epidemic is the inevitable result of policies that ignore human nature.

www.foxnews.com

Soldiers drafted in the Vietnam era were required to serve two years--and that was over 50 years ago. After they were discharged, they were able to access the GI Bill and get a college or vocational/technical school education. Other people from poor backgrounds enlisted in the military and made it a career.

The working class received a huge blow when Ronald Reagan busted the Air Traffic Controllers' Union. That was the beginning of the massive income inequality we see today, because good union jobs were replaced by "right to work (for peanuts)" jobs.

If you want to know why the "war on poverty" is failing, just look towards the huge cuts in Medicaid, food stamps, child care, etc. from the Trump administration alone.

These childcare stats are from Microsoft Co-Pilot:

Like
Dislike

Average Cost of Preschool Daycare in the U.S. (2026)
For preschool-aged children (3–5 years), the national average annual cost for full-time center-based daycare in 2026 is about $8,300 per year, which works out to roughly $692 per month www.parentcalc.com. This is lower than infant or toddler care because preschoolers require fewer caregiver-to-child ratios and can be accommodated in larger groups.

Cost by Age Group (National Averages, 2026) www.parentcalc.com

Infant (0–1 year): $10,600/year ($883/month)

Toddler (1–3 years): $9,300/year ($775/month)

Preschool (3–5 years): $8,300/year ($692/month)

Our state, which cuts wherever it can, just dropped lots of daycare subsidies and some centers closed. On the one hand, they require parents to work--but set up conditions that make it impossible for them to do so and still make ends meet.

I will file the Fox News info you shared under "Revisionist Fairy Tales."

RDKirk · 2026-06-05T10:26:35-0500

durangodawood said:
This all does seem to ring true about how the maga right feels about various culture topics. But we really should ask: does the actual impact on typical peoples lives of these culture wars issues stack up to the hype that inundates them daily? I dont think so - especially not compared to global and structural standard of living realities. Emotion sells way better than understanding tho.

But Im not sure all of that really address what I was wondering about: liberal examples of:

I suppose if people are just naturally disingenuous, then that would apply typically. But my sense is that on all sides most people have decent integrity, with good understanding of reality being the major deficit. Perhaps Im overgenerous here.

What I hear constantly--constantly--is this refrain:

We hear: "Your language is racist and sexist, your history is racist and sexist, your art is racist and sexist, your philosophy is racist and sexist, your math is racist and sexist, and even your potato salad is racist and sexist. Your whole society is an evil white supremacist patriarchy. You all have to die!"

In their minds, that means the end of them.

Hans Blaster · 2026-06-05T11:36:45-0500

RDKirk said:
What I hear constantly--constantly--is this refrain:

We hear: "Your language is racist and sexist, your history is racist and sexist, your art is racist and sexist, your philosophy is racist and sexist, your math is racist and sexist, and even your potato salad is racist and sexist. Your whole society is an evil white supremacist patriarchy. You all have to die!"

In their minds, that means the end of them.

I cannot condone the paranoid delusions of others.

RDKirk · 2026-06-05T12:51:02-0500

Hans Blaster said:
I cannot condone the paranoid delusions of others.

What I put into quotes can all be found as said by people on the Left.

durangodawood · 2026-06-05T13:10:10-0500

RDKirk said:
What I put into quotes can all be found as said by people on the Left.

The reason why people hear a lot of this is because bad actors bring it to them non stop. Its the path to power nowadays: scare the heck out of people by feeding them a nonstop diet of panic and outrage re "horrors" they would rarely encounter in their own lived lives.

The people who lap it up are to blame as well. They should not be completely excused for their utter lack of discrimination.

RDKirk · 2026-06-05T14:45:46-0500

durangodawood said:
The reason why people hear a lot of this is because bad actors bring it to them non stop. Its the path to power nowadays: scare the heck out of people by feeding them a nonstop diet of panic and outrage re "horrors" they would rarely encounter in their own lived lives.

The people who lap it up are to blame as well. They should not be completely excused for their utter lack of discrimination.

I notice you could not assert that these things are not being said by the Left.

This is also what I notice:

I can talk about how erroneously the Right views Iran...

...or I can talk about how erroneously the Left view MAGA...

...from the point of view of "looking at the game from your opponent's side of the board"...

...and none of you on either the Left or the Right seems to get it.

durangodawood · 2026-06-05T15:16:10-0500

RDKirk said:
I notice you could not assert that these things are not being said by the Left.

Of course they are being said. Everything is being said. Nothing is unsaid these days. If someone says a thing that tickles our pet outrage, we can all know about it tomorrow if we've attuned our soc media to escort it to the front of the info line.

Thats my point.: people have a distorted view of reality based things that are real but understood with zero sense of proportion. And this is mainstreamed on the right in a way that the left has a long way to catch up to. "The left" tried to get their own Rush Limbaughs etc going, but they never took in a big way.

RDKirk said:
...from the point of view of "looking at the game from your opponent's side of the board"...

See above. Ive been in plenty of people houses or cars with the Fox "news" on nonstop, or some talking head equivalent. I'm not in that much of a lefty bubble. My day job brings me into contact with all sorts. My ex gf had lots of maga family. Etc etc.

RDKirk · 2026-06-05T16:04:26-0500

durangodawood said:
See above. Ive been in plenty of people houses or cars with the Fox "news" on nonstop, or some talking head equivalent. I'm not in that much of a lefty bubble. My day job brings me into contact with all sorts. My ex gf had lots of maga family. Etc etc.

But you're not seeing the board from their point of view.

You're seeing them from your point of view.

durangodawood · 2026-06-05T16:49:04-0500

RDKirk said:
But you're not seeing the board from their point of view.

You're seeing them from your point of view.

"The game" sounds like youre referring to the political scoreboard, which party accumulates the most power. Is that what you mean?

RDKirk · 2026-06-05T17:00:21-0500

durangodawood said:
"The game" sounds like youre referring to the political scoreboard, which party accumulates the most power. Is that what you mean?

See my post #523

Pommer · 2026-06-05T17:10:31-0500

RDKirk said:
See my post #523

Misunderstanding “the other side” has been the normal operating procedure in politics from the earliest times.

Both sides need to remember that using the power of the government to enforce their own side’s version of “normal”, (to “police“ the society in which the Government sits), is to be used sparingly (if at all).
The society is larger than the government itself, (if it is not, then bad things have happened and more bad things are going to happen), this constitutes the “consent of the governed”.

durangodawood · 2026-06-05T17:39:56-0500

RDKirk said:
But you're not seeing the board from their point of view.

You're seeing them from your point of view.

Ah I see. Well I think I am seeing the board from their pov. You do realize theres no principle that says both or any sides' perspective on the board has to be based on a proper understanding of reality, right?.

Fantine · 2026-06-05T19:41:13-0500

If MAGA had a different spokesperson perhaps I could look at their platform more objectively.
But trying to find serious proposals in the poisonous mix of insults, hyperbole, and verifiable falsehoods is like panning for gold in a mud-filled container.

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