Ending life sooner

GrowInChrist said:

Another option is for the family to consent to the removal of life support, allowing the person's life to end sooner.

My question is: Would the second option be considered a form of intentionally ending a human life?

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Ah . . . yeah . . . I guess so. But there is the question about how much God would have us using resources to keep ourselves alive. Plus . . . by the way . . . God already know what is really going to happen; and He has planned it.

But, practically . . . first, I would pray so I am ready for what God has planned . . . that He knows is really going to happen.

Also . . . not always do people die when they let go of themselves, medically.

I would say pray and trust God to guide you.

Pray for ***honesty***. Because people can rig things to make their situation look the way they want you to see it.

There can be a person who claims to be a Christian, but the person has been doing things for years, even decades, to abuse oneself so the person comes to a very painful state. Well . . . the person wants to die, and all of a sudden asks you for your opinion or approval . . . maybe after not listening to you and/or others for decades about how the person should not have been abusing oneself. Well, you don't have to answer to that. If you had some real say, you and/or others would have told the person not to abuse oneself, medically, for years. But the person would not listen, but now all of a sudden the person acts as though you have to give your opinion . . . and the situation has been rigged to make it look like you have to agree with the person. In fact . . . in my opinion . . . in such a case > no, you do not have to make any judgment. The person arranged to get into that situation, and no you do not have to get involved in that.

Like this > I know people who have lived for themselves, right while making quite a righteous show of being Christians. And now they are horribly miserable, and they might try to make me responsible for their being happy enough to stay alive!! And am I going to tell them their pain excuses them to die? No. And ones will say I am not comforting them the way I should. Right!!

Pain does not decide things, I would say. But this world is so about pleasure and convenience and comfort. So, worldly people can tend to rig things for avoiding pain . . . after they might have taken action to make sure they would suffer. In the case of such trickery . . . no, you do not have to try to satisfy them with what they want, after they have actually arranged to get into that situation!

And in case you have not had opportunity to really get to understand someone . . . my experience is they will already have people who are working along with what they plan to do. And so, I would be careful, prayerfully, about getting involved.

But what if someone is suffering innocently? In my case, I would want to simply obey God and He would guide me and give me the strength and right attitude so I would do what He pleases. What might matter to me is I would not want people to spend a lot of money just to keep me alive. I might talk with professionals about what is available, and what they want to do. But most of all pray so I get what God wants. I might stay a while so anyone may talk with me. But if I become more or less a "vegetable" . . . maybe I would not try now to control what others will do, but leave them free to do what they see fit, and they will answer to God.

Each person is different . . . of course! If you have been trusted with someone's choice . . . you can choose if you accept that responsibility. And, as I offer, there are ones who are not honest, and they can fix things in order to control and steer you, and you do not have to let yourself get involved with that.

But in case we are talking about a clearly honest Christian who is suffering . . . the person should be honest enough to make sure with God about what to do; so it's not on you to know and decide, unless you are sure God wants you involved.

With my lady friend, I encourage her not to be in a hurry to die, because there are people here for her to love. And I have talked with a relative, and I said she seems able to keep going for a while; so in case something happened to her > do not be in a hurry to let her go. So, may be there could be some intense pain, at some point, but I would not let that excuse her for convenience . . . especially if there is reasonable medical ability to bring her out and even to more healthy and comfortable life. But in case she is suffering a lot . . . I would test it, not push her one way or the other.

Our Apostle Paul suffered a lot, didn't he? So, he could have welcomed just dying. But here is what Paul says >

"For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:23-24)

And Jesus could have just died, without suffering. But He even put Himself in the situation where He would go through all that. And now Jesus can use His experience to feel for us and now bless us with the grace which had Jesus doing so well, during all His things of His life.

So, I think of this > beware of how this world can train your attention to thinking about things of pain. Don't let the issue put you to the test, but you put the issue to the test, including about who is behind that, trying to control your attention, perhaps.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

*Permission to post in full*

A Catholic perspective:

Question:​

What is the Church’s teaching’s on the prolonging of life when the body is at it’s natural end?

Answer:​

In short, the Church teaches that extraordinary measures need not be taken to keep someone alive, e.g., the use of a ventilator when a person’s breathing system is shutting down.

At the same, the Church teaches that ordinary medical care should never be forsaken, i.e., food and fluids—even when taken intravenously—unless receiving food or fluids yield more harm than good because a person’s body is shutting down.

In all cases, a person in the latter stages of life should be given good palliative care, including oxygen received nasally and also pain-management pharmaceuticals, both of which will aid the patient’s comfort in their last days as they prepare for death.

Unfortunately, many hospitals today practice a form of euthanasia by withholding food and fluids because doctors have judged a patient has reached a diminished “quality of life.” The person might well die in only weeks or months otherwise because of their physical condition, yet they end up dying from starvation and dehydration sooner. Such bioethical practices are not ethical, because they establish the precedent for ending the life others deemed to have a diminished quality of life, including because they are perceived as a burden on society, e.g., those with Down Syndrome.

For more on this issue, please see our previous response on extraordinary care. In addition, for more information, including obtaining an advance directive to ensure Catholic principles are followed in end-of-life care for you and your loved, we encourage you to contact Human Life International and the National Catholic Bioethics Center.

I can understand why some people might want to end it all, but in a lot of cases they haven't considered the eternal judgement that waits on the other side of death.

But I remember a comment by Bill Hayden, a former Australian politician and Governor General from 1989 to 1996. Even though he was an atheist at the time, my old pastor thought he would have been a better prime minister than Bob Hawke. But he cynically remarked that Hayden didn't get the job as he was a Queenslander.

Fortunately he rediscovered his Catholic faith in his later years, partly inspired by a nun he knew if my memory serves me correctly.

This is an AI summary -

Former Australian politician and Governor-General Bill Hayden, a lifelong and vocal atheist, officially returned to the Catholic faith when he was baptized at 85 years old on September 9, 2018.

The defining details of his conversion include:

The Location: He was baptized by Father Peter Dillon at St. Mary's Catholic Church in Ipswich, Queensland—the same historic town where his state funeral was later held in 2023.

The Catalyst: A pivotal moment occurred after visiting Sister Angela Mary Doyle, a Brisbane nun he long admired for her compassion and healthcare work for the impoverished. After this visit, he felt a "gnawing pain" in his soul regarding the meaning of life and recognized that human existence isn't isolated from a higher dedication to others.

The Motivation: Despite his previous humanist and atheist stances, Hayden felt the Christian principles of "humanity, social commitment and service to others" seamlessly aligned with the political and personal values he applied throughout his career.

Background: Although raised in the Catholic tradition by his mother, Hayden had drifted from the church during his early adulthood and spent decades as an outspoken non-believer

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But when the business of euthanasia was being discussed in the early stages, he remarked he'd been in and out of too many nursing homes when he was a politician to be against it. He'd just seen too many dead end lives lying in beds waiting to die.

I remember once when I did a delivery to a nursing home close to our place. Two nurses or staff were outside having a break. I said to them "What do you do all night?"

They replied "Oh, change about a hundred beds!"

I suppose Bill Hayden wondered what the point was in prolonging helpless lives.

While this is a distraction from the topic which is basically about euthanasia, I mentioned former federal politician and Governor General Bill Hayden was an atheist while regaining his faith in his final years.

I think one of the reasons he veered towards atheism in the first place was the death of his young daughter in 1966 who was killed crossing the road after attending Sunday School of all things, along with his father's violence and sneering attitude to Christianity.

There remains a deep family sadness for the child Bill and Dallas Hayden lost – eldest daughter Michaela – who was just five when a car knocked her down as she ran across a road coming from Sunday school.

“Terrible,” Mr Hayden said, recalling how he sought help from a kind priest, but found no solace in prayer.

Mr Hayden said his father George was the driving force behind his atheism.

“He had no time for religion … He was quite radical, a determined atheist – always sneering at religion – the opiate of the masses,” he said.

His father was also a “violent man” who would beat him with a length of rubber tubing.

“I was exposed to what family violence is all about. It used to happen at home too often,” he said.

“I can never forgive him for backhanding my mother and laying her out on the floor… she would cry out ‘for God’s sake, someone help me’.

“I was only four or five when this was happening. All I could do was sit there and cry.

“I thought one day, ‘I’ll get you’. I used to hate him so badly.

“So a lot of my life was a championship against myself, trying to prove I could stand up.”

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Bob Crowley said:

He'd just seen too many dead end lives lying in beds waiting to die.

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That was how >he< saw those people and their lives.

He had culture and upbringing which trained him to see people that way.

What matters is how God sees someone in older age.

One thing that matters is if we can love. This affects the quality of our lives, much more than if we can control our urinating and defecating. What is a concern to me is how I think I have known older people who have lived their lives mainly for their own selves, and they do not know how to love any and all people like Jesus says > and Jesus says >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

Bob Crowley said:

I remember once when I did a delivery to a nursing home close to our place. Two nurses or staff were outside having a break. I said to them "What do you do all night?"

They replied "Oh, change about a hundred beds!"

I suppose Bill Hayden wondered what the point was in prolonging helpless lives.

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So . . . who is seeing their lives as being "helpless"? And how did someone get brought up so the person can see their lives as being "helpless"? In case being helpless in old age is grounds for euthanasia, what about helpless babies who have very deforming conditions? And what if you have a relative who has gotten brain damaged in a car accident, but the person can talk and eat, but is violent so the person is going to be permanently kept in an institution??

Once, I talked with a woman who worked with people in a unit which was locked, where they kept men who had been brain damaged in accidents and they could be violent. I asked her why she did that. She said something like this > I want to treat them the way I would want to be treated, if it was me.

So . . . here is another thing, then > God cares about what is good for the ones who are caring for disabled people. Jesus wants us to love any and all people. And love has us care for someone who can give us nothing in return . . . right?

That was how >he< saw those people and their lives.

He had culture and upbringing which trained him to see people that way.

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I think that comment is unjust. Hayden did a lot for the Australian people generally and some elements of the international community. Despite the brutality of his own father, or perhaps because of it, he had a real concern for people.

From an AI summary -

Hayden’s most significant community contributions fall into key areas of reform:

• Universal Healthcare: As Minister for Social Security, he designed and introduced Medibank in 1975, which provided all Australians with access to affordable, universal medical and hospital care. [1, 2]
• Welfare Reform: Prior to national health care, he introduced the Supporting Mother’s Benefit in 1973. This provided financial support to unmarried mothers and their children, lifting countless vulnerable families out of poverty. [1, 2]
• Foreign Affairs: As Minister for Foreign Affairs (1983–1988), he promoted deeper engagement with the Asia-Pacific region and laid foundational diplomatic groundwork for the Cambodian peace process. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
• Party Renewal: After the turbulent dismissal of the Whitlam government, he led the Australian Labor Party from 1977 to 1983, rebuilding it into an electable force and mentoring the talent that drove Australia's economic reforms in the following decade. [1, 2]
• Vice-Regal Representation: From 1989 to 1996, Hayden served as Governor-General, bringing a warm, approachable, and distinctly Australian character to the vice-regal role. [1, 2]

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As the minister for Social Security, I assume he would have visited a number of aged care homes, hospices etc. If time after time he saw people unable to help themselves lying in their own urine and whatever else, he would have thought that is no way to live.

In an earlier age, without the advanced health care that is available now, a lot of those people would have died much earlier from what we call "natural causes".