Joy, tears and chants of "freedom" as Venezuelans - Bravo President Trump and his decisive actions

RDKirk · Wednesday at 5:08 AM

Hans Blaster said:
It's clear that some are more MAGA than others.

I've mentioned before that I spend Tuesday mornings having breakfast with a group of strongly MAGA men my age. Sometimes it gets kind of hard to take, but I'm mostly collecting intelligence.

In recent weeks, they do seem less enthusiastic about Trump personally, but they are not in any way ready to jettison him, much less ever vote Democratic. And when they complain about Democrats, the culture war is their primary topic.

A2SG · Wednesday at 5:18 AM

RDKirk said:
I've mentioned before that I spend Tuesday mornings having breakfast with a group of strongly MAGA men my age. Sometimes it gets kind of hard to take, but I'm mostly collecting intelligence.

In recent weeks, they do seem less enthusiastic about Trump personally, but they are not in any way ready to jettison him, much less ever vote Democratic. And when they complain about Democrats, the culture war is their primary topic.

It certainly does seem like MAGA, and the right in general, are far more concerned with "culture war" issues than the left is. Certainly, they're making more attempts to limit the rights of certain people, trans folk for example, than any comparable attempts made by those on the left. They also seem to be talking about these issues more.

-- A2SG, mostly to complain about 'em, granted....

RDKirk · Wednesday at 6:06 AM

A2SG said:
It certainly does seem like MAGA, and the right in general, are far more concerned with "culture war" issues than the left is. Certainly, they're making more attempts to limit the rights of certain people, trans folk for example, than any comparable attempts made by those on the left. They also seem to be talking about these issues more.

-- A2SG, mostly to complain about 'em, granted....

There is a statement I will make regarding a genuine failure of the Left that I often apply to the US government in its dealings with Iran. This is something I learned in a particular course at the Defense Intelligence College:

You have to study the game from your opponents' side of the board. What is your opponent really trying to protect, and what does he perceive as the threats to what he's trying to protect?

When we don't see the game from our opponents' side of the board, we fail in several ways:

1. We fool ourselves into mischaracterizing--and dehumanizing--our opponent. By doing that, we underestimate how hard he's willing to fight.

2. We fail to see where negotiation is possible. We may be scaring him in totally unnecessary ways. What he's trying to protect might not even be what we're aiming at.

3. We may be lying to ourselves about our own righteousness. When we see clearly what he's trying to protect, we may realize he's completely rationale--we'd protect the same thing ourselves. We may have to face the fact that we really are trying to screw him over, and he's not evil for resisting being screwed over--we are the bad guys.

iluvatar5150 · Wednesday at 6:33 AM

RDKirk said:
There is a statement I will make regarding a genuine failure of the Left that I often apply to the US government in its dealings with Iran. This is something I learned in a particular course at the Defense Intelligence College:

You have to study the game from your opponents' side of the board. What is your opponent really trying to protect, and what does he perceive as the threats to what he's trying to protect?

When we don't see the game from our opponents' side of the board, we fail in several ways:

1. We fool ourselves into mischaracterizing--and dehumanizing--our opponent. By doing that, we underestimate how hard he's willing to fight.

2. We fail to see where negotiation is possible. We may be scaring him in totally unnecessary ways. What he's trying to protect might not even be what we're aiming at.

3. We may be lying to ourselves about our own righteousness. When we see clearly what he's trying to protect, we may realize he's completely rationale--we'd protect the same thing ourselves. We may have to face the fact that we really are trying to screw him over, and he's not evil for resisting being screwed over--we are the bad guys.

As someone who tries to take this approach, and who has more exposure to far right conservatism than most of my peers, I still often have trouble sussing out what it is that MAGA truly values and is trying to protect. Even their culture war fights aren’t internally consistent. It sounds reductionist, but theory of everything seems to be pointing at vindictiveness and power as the primary motivators rather than any sort of real ideology.

Pommer · Wednesday at 12:19 PM

RDKirk said:
3. We may be lying to ourselves about our own righteousness. When we see clearly what he's trying to protect, we may realize he's completely rationale--we'd protect the same thing ourselves. We may have to face the fact that we really are trying to screw him over, and he's not evil for resisting being screwed over--we are the bad guys.

In all of history, how many times do the “good guys” launch a preemptive war?

Say it aint so · Wednesday at 12:22 PM

RDKirk said:
I've mentioned before that I spend Tuesday mornings having breakfast with a group of strongly MAGA men my age. Sometimes it gets kind of hard to take, but I'm mostly collecting intelligence.

In recent weeks, they do seem less enthusiastic about Trump personally, but they are not in any way ready to jettison him, much less ever vote Democratic. And when they complain about Democrats, the culture war is their primary topic.

Can I ask when they say their concerns are culture wars, what topics do they bring up?
You don't need to expound, just by topic what do they mean?

RDKirk · Wednesday at 2:46 PM

Say it aint so said:
Can I ask when they say their concerns are culture wars, what topics do they bring up?
You don't need to expound, just by topic what do they mean?

Anglo-American culture. Essentially, the way the nation is, with any changes being gradual (i.e. classically conservative).

There are certain things that have been definite triggers, although it's a broad-based concept.

One, for instance, is the policy application of CRT. I'm not getting into ivory-tower academic discussions of CRT, I'm talking about CRT policy application that they have in fact documented, such as elementary school classrooms being divided up by "oppressor" and "oppressed." And actually classes being taught at the military academies that white junior enlisted males are the "oppressors" of black and female senior officers. That kind of thing is on video--it's even in text books.

The trigger of "what is a woman," is another example, which for MAGA entails totally upending their culture, not merely giving a minority group the right to exist in peace.

Fantine · Wednesday at 3:35 PM

Culture warriors seem to build their morality around issues that don't personally inconvenience them.

The majority of pro-life activists I know are postmenopausal women who do not have to face any of the issues facing young mothers. They are not gay or trans and probably don't have immediate family members who are. It's so easy to virtue signal when it costs you nothing.

As for the Venezuelans, it seems like they have traded one dictator for another, so we'll see how that works out. I don't think morality played a part in our government's decision, since they were financing Central American drug lords while going after Venezuela.

RDKirk · Wednesday at 4:01 PM

Fantine said:
Culture warriors seem to build their morality around issues that don't personally inconvenience them.

That's true on both sides.

durangodawood · Wednesday at 5:36 PM

RDKirk said:
That's true on both sides.

For example, on the "liberal" side we see.......?

RDKirk · Wednesday at 6:07 PM

durangodawood said:
For example, on the "liberal" side we see.......?

Everything they don't see as a personal inconvenience.

Rather, they don't care if it inconveniences others.

durangodawood · Wednesday at 6:15 PM

RDKirk said:
Everything they don't see as a personal inconvenience.

Rather, they don't care if it inconveniences others.

Yes, thats the principle you already said. Plus a variation.

I was hoping for an example.

Fantine · Wednesday at 6:28 PM

Maybe I'm unusual:
I'm not an immigrant, but the immigrants I know have all contributed to our community. They work hard and raise children who are aspirational.
I'm not poor, but I believe in labor unions, living wages, and help for those who are temporarily out of work or disabled.
I'm religious, but I don't expect people of other faiths to follow the dictums of my own denomination.
I have great health care (Medicare plus supplement) and my husband has greater health care (100% disabled vet) but I believe in Medicare for all.
And yes, I realize that we receive great federal benefits in our old age, between the VA and Social Security, but I don't look at them as "entitlements." I believe both are necessary and want to see younger military vets who have been exposed to burn pits, Gulf War Syndrome, etc. to receive benefits as well. When it comes to war, there is no "better fighting through chemistry." We use too many poisons and don't protect our younger veterans enough from their effects.

Say it aint so · Wednesday at 7:19 PM

RDKirk said:
Anglo-American culture. Essentially, the way the nation is, with any changes being gradual (i.e. classically conservative).

There are certain things that have been definite triggers, although it's a broad-based concept.

One, for instance, is the policy application of CRT. I'm not getting into ivory-tower academic discussions of CRT, I'm talking about CRT policy application that they have in fact documented, such as elementary school classrooms being divided up by "oppressor" and "oppressed." And actually classes being taught at the military academies that white junior enlisted males are the "oppressors" of black and female senior officers. That kind of thing is on video--it's even in text books.

The trigger of "what is a woman," is another example, which for MAGA entails totally upending their culture, not merely giving a minority group the right to exist in peace.

Thanks. Kind of what I expected.

A2SG · Wednesday at 10:47 PM

RDKirk said:
There is a statement I will make regarding a genuine failure of the Left that I often apply to the US government in its dealings with Iran. This is something I learned in a particular course at the Defense Intelligence College:

You have to study the game from your opponents' side of the board. What is your opponent really trying to protect, and what does he perceive as the threats to what he's trying to protect?

When we don't see the game from our opponents' side of the board, we fail in several ways:

1. We fool ourselves into mischaracterizing--and dehumanizing--our opponent. By doing that, we underestimate how hard he's willing to fight.

2. We fail to see where negotiation is possible. We may be scaring him in totally unnecessary ways. What he's trying to protect might not even be what we're aiming at.

3. We may be lying to ourselves about our own righteousness. When we see clearly what he's trying to protect, we may realize he's completely rationale--we'd protect the same thing ourselves. We may have to face the fact that we really are trying to screw him over, and he's not evil for resisting being screwed over--we are the bad guys.

While I do recognize some blind spots on the left, I don't think this "genuine failure" is a specific failure on the part of the left. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're less prone to it than the right, particularly the MAGA right. MAGA seems especially insistent on not even trying to see the left's point of view, and prefer to simply call them loony lefties, characterize every attempt to govern as "hating America," and go out of their way to demonize anything and everything coming from the left. It's not accidental, I'd say it's entirely deliberate, particularly coming from their leadership.

Do we see the left labeling MAGA as "hating America?" Sure, they can be called fascist from time to time, but in response to genuine authoritarian measures. This isn't a failure of seeing things from their point of view: we do see it from their point of view. They want Trump to be in power, and stay in power. Not a lot of ambiguity there. And Trump is fully on board with that.

But maybe I'm biased, and missing something. What about the right, particularly the MAGA right, does the left not understand, and what should they do about it?

-- A2SG, other than hand over unlimited, unrestrained power to Trump, of course.....

RDKirk · 2026-06-04T16:28:19-0500

durangodawood said:
Yes, thats the principle you already said. Plus a variation.

I was hoping for an example.

I'll give you an analysis.

From a MAGA point of view, the last decade doesn’t feel like normal political disagreement. It feels like a fast cultural shift pushed through institutions they don’t trust, like schools, media, universities, and large companies. So even when liberals see separate policy debates, MAGA often sees a single pattern: the country changing in ways they didn’t agree to and don’t recognize.

On immigration, they don’t just see a policy dispute. They see large and steady population change happening quickly, plus public messaging that often treats opposition as morally suspect. That combination gets interpreted as a loss of control over what the country is becoming.

On education, media, and workplace culture, they see strong emphasis on race, gender, and history framed in ways that often highlight America’s past harms. Many of them experience this as the country re-telling its story in a way that puts their identity in a negative light or treats it as something to move past rather than preserve.

They are being told racism must be eliminated and, oh, by the way, "Your language is racist, your history is racist, your art is racist, your philosophy is racist, your math is racist, and even your potato salad is racist. All that's gotta go!"

On gender issues, a lot of the reaction comes from specific, widely reported flashpoints. These include things like schools allowing students to socially transition without always informing parents, disputes over whether biological males can compete in girls’ sports, and high-profile stories about pronoun policies in schools and workplaces. They also hear debates over whether minors should be able to access puberty blockers or other medical transition treatments, and they often see these issues discussed in media as settled or morally obvious rather than openly debated. Even when the actual policies are limited or vary by state, the media coverage makes it feel like a fast national shift. Particularly when the administration presents them with actual Executive Orders to that effect.

They also react strongly to moments when conservative or rural Americans are described in very negative terms in politics or media. Things like “deplorables” or repeated framing of them as ignorant or backward get remembered and stacked together, reinforcing the sense that they are looked down on by cultural elites.

On protests and policing, events like the 2020 riots and “defund the police” rhetoric are often taken as signs that public order is weakening or that rules are applied unevenly depending on politics.

Put together, their view is less “we reject change” and more “major institutions are changing the culture quickly, don’t share our values, and don’t treat us as legitimate participants in that change.”

Pommer · 2026-06-04T17:00:58-0500

RDKirk said:
I'll give you an analysis.

From a MAGA point of view, the last decade doesn’t feel like normal political disagreement. It feels like a fast cultural shift pushed through institutions they don’t trust, like schools, media, universities, and large companies. So even when liberals see separate policy debates, MAGA often sees a single pattern: the country changing in ways they didn’t agree to and don’t recognize.

On immigration, they don’t just see a policy dispute. They see large and steady population change happening quickly, plus public messaging that often treats opposition as morally suspect. That combination gets interpreted as a loss of control over what the country is becoming.

On education, media, and workplace culture, they see strong emphasis on race, gender, and history framed in ways that often highlight America’s past harms. Many of them experience this as the country re-telling its story in a way that puts their identity in a negative light or treats it as something to move past rather than preserve.

They are being told racism must be eliminated and, oh, by the way, "Your language is racist, your history is racist, your art is racist, your philosophy is racist, your math is racist, and even your potato salad is racist. All that's gotta go!"

On gender issues, a lot of the reaction comes from specific, widely reported flashpoints. These include things like schools allowing students to socially transition without always informing parents, disputes over whether biological males can compete in girls’ sports, and high-profile stories about pronoun policies in schools and workplaces. They also hear debates over whether minors should be able to access puberty blockers or other medical transition treatments, and they often see these issues discussed in media as settled or morally obvious rather than openly debated. Even when the actual policies are limited or vary by state, the media coverage makes it feel like a fast national shift. Particularly when the administration presents them with actual Executive Orders to that effect.

They also react strongly to moments when conservative or rural Americans are described in very negative terms in politics or media. Things like “deplorables” or repeated framing of them as ignorant or backward get remembered and stacked together, reinforcing the sense that they are looked down on by cultural elites.

On protests and policing, events like the 2020 riots and “defund the police” rhetoric are often taken as signs that public order is weakening or that rules are applied unevenly depending on politics.

Put together, their view is less “we reject change” and more “major institutions are changing the culture quickly, don’t share our values, and don’t treat us as legitimate participants in that change.”

My tl;dr: Baby Boomers are getting on in years and aren’t at all happy with how things (that they’ve been in charge of, for thirty-years), are going.

RDKirk · 2026-06-04T17:28:46-0500

Pommer said:
My tl;dr: Baby Boomers are getting on in years and aren’t at all happy with how things (that they’ve been in charge of, for thirty-years), are going.

MAGA is not just Boomers.

Fantine · 2026-06-04T18:40:18-0500

RDKirk said:
I'll give you an analysis.

From a MAGA point of view, the last decade doesn’t feel like normal political disagreement. It feels like a fast cultural shift pushed through institutions they don’t trust, like schools, media, universities, and large companies.

On education, media, and workplace culture, they see strong emphasis on race, gender, and history framed in ways that often highlight America’s past harms.

They are being told racism must be eliminated and, oh, by the way, "Your language is racist, your history is racist, your art is racist, your philosophy is racist, your math is racist, and even your potato salad is racist.

They also react strongly to moments when conservative or rural Americans are described in very negative terms in politics or media. Things like “deplorables” or repeated framing of them as ignorant or gether, reinforcing the sense that they are looked down on by cultural elites.

Put together, their view is less “we reject change” and more “major institutions are changing the culture quickly, don’t share our values, and don’t treat us as legitimate participants in that change.”

I don't trust everything schools, universities, and large companies say-- but if the alternative is completely believing what MAGA, Trump, or fundamentalist preachers say, there's absolutely no contest.

Women constitute more than fifty percent of the population, and even more of the voting population, and they have not been fairly represented
In their contributions to society. Their salaries are lower than men's in comparable jobs. And it is easy for them to empathize with other groups who have encountered even more discrimination in the past.

While rural populations are worrying about what the cultural elites think of them, the cultural elites are not destroying their livelihood with international tariffs and severe shortages of fertilizers due to blockades in the Strait of Hormuz. We respect the jobs that farmers do.

Does "not changing" the culture result in discrimination and prejudice against people who look or think differently? In defining colonial america as a Christian nation, for example, and requiring that people of every faith or no faith share their moral sanctions against LGBTQ
or reproductive rights.

Lukaris · 2026-06-04T19:43:56-0500

Conservatives see the leftist welfare state as an institution of permanent poverty and decay. There is an endless need to address poverty because the failed system perpetuates it. Welfare is meant to be a safety net or aid for the helpless disabled.

Probably much of our current disparities can be traced to the failed 1960s war on poverty and the war in Vietnam initiated by the post JFK democrats. It also seems like a disproportionate amount of the poor were drafted to fight which destroyed the working class.

California's estimated $180B welfare fraud is a warning for America | Fox News

California's massive welfare state has seen an estimated $180 billion stolen under Gov. Newsom, arguing the fraud epidemic is the inevitable result of policies that ignore human nature.

www.foxnews.com

Joy, tears and chants of "freedom" as Venezuelans - Bravo President Trump and his decisive actions

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