Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 1:51 PM

Jan001 said:
I disagree with your interpretations of the scriptures.

HOW do you disagree? You can’t just say you disagree without suggesting, in your own words, what you disagree with.

David1701 · Tuesday at 1:52 PM

Jan001 said:
If the builder's "work" wasn't built on the foundation of Jesus Christ but instead on Satan, the "father of lies," both he and his work will be thrown into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew 18:8-9
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Perhaps you didn't notice that the first of your two Scriptural quotes actually states (and you've underlined it!) that, although the wood, hay and stubble works of a saved person will be burned up, the builder will be saved.

Remember that we were talking about people who are saved, who commit sin.

Jan001 · Tuesday at 3:00 PM

David1701 said:
Perhaps you didn't notice that the first of your two Scriptural quotes actually states (and you've underlined it!) that, although the wood, hay and stubble works of a saved person will be burned up, the builder will be saved.

Remember that we were talking about people who are saved, who commit sin.

If a saved person commits a grievous sin, he isn't saved anymore. His faith is dead. Dead faith won't save anyone. His good deeds won't be remembered because when he becomes wicked, God will not remember even one of the good deeds he did while he was righteous. If he doesn't repent of his wickedness before he dies, he will experience the second death, the lake of fire.

1 John 5:16-17
f anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (second death). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Ezekiel 33:12-19
And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. 13 Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right— 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. 16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.
17 Yet your people say, “The way of the Lord is not just,” when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, I will judge all of you according to your ways!

David1701 · Tuesday at 3:02 PM

Jan001 said:
If a saved person commits a grievous sin, he isn't saved anymore. His faith is dead. Dead faith won't save anyone. His good deeds won't be remembered because when he becomes wicked, God will not remember even one of the good deeds he did while he was righteous. If he doesn't repent of his wickedness before he dies, he will experience the second death, the lake of fire.

1 John 5:16-17
f anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (second death). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Ezekiel 33:12-19
And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. 13 Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right— 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. 16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.
17 Yet your people say, “The way of the Lord is not just,” when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, I will judge all of you according to your ways!

<sigh>
Never mind...

Jan001 · Tuesday at 3:51 PM

David1701 said:
Perhaps you didn't notice that the first of your two Scriptural quotes actually states (and you've underlined it!) that, although the wood, hay and stubble works of a saved person will be burned up, the builder will be saved.

An evildoer doesn't have any "wood, hay, or straw works." Only a righteous person can have them.
An evildoer does evil works. Both he and his evil works will be thrown into the lake of fire. His foundation is not Jesus Christ. His foundation is Satan.

Luke 6:43
“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

A righteous person's "wood, hay, and stubble works" are his "good works," but they were not perfectly done. The fire will burn away the imperfections of these "good works." If he did the "good work" to be admired, he has already received his reward on earth, and so the fire will consume it.

Matthew 6:1-2
Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

Matthew 6:5
And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

Jan001 · Tuesday at 4:00 PM

David1701 said:
Perhaps you didn't notice that the first of your two Scriptural quotes actually states (and you've underlined it!) that, although the wood, hay and stubble works of a saved person will be burned up, the builder will be saved.

A person who does evil works is not saved! He is not a builder. He is a destroyer, and he and his evil works will be thrown into the lake of fire!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

Jan001 · Tuesday at 4:37 PM

A New Dawn said:
HOW do you disagree? You can’t just say you disagree without suggesting, in your own words, what you disagree with.

If you believe in any of these "doctrines"—eternal security, faith alone, or grace alone—then we disagree on what the scriptures actually teach about what is necessary for salvation.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 8:02 PM

Jan001 said:
A Christian can fall away from saving grace by committing grievous sins. Matthew 13:20-22

Then why did Paul say this ?????

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel correctly predicted that the New Covenant to come would involve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes with the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord which seals the salvation of the believer rendering them incapable of sinning to the point of losing salvation.

Jeremiah 32

38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 8:07 PM

Jan001 said:
A Christian can fall away from saving grace by committing grievous sins. Matthew 13:20-22

This passage speaks of the difference between the saved and the unsaved - It makes no reference or comment about true believers with Good Soil falling away.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 8:11 PM

Jan001 said:
If a saved person commits a grievous sin, he isn't saved anymore. His faith is dead.

Wrong - I was born again at 13 and lapsed into serious sin for 11 years between 17 and 38. Then by His great grace I was called back to faith and given a second chance. Christians thought I was beyond hope because they had a doctrine like yours, but they were very wrong.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 8:29 PM

Carl Emerson said:
This passage speaks of the difference between the saved and the unsaved - It makes no reference or comment about true believers with Good Soil falling away.

How about: Heb 2:1,3;3:12;6:4-6;10:26-29,38;12:15,25;2 Pe 2:20-22. for starters!

Jan001 · Tuesday at 8:48 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Then why did Paul say this ?????

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" means he excommunicated him; he denied him fellowship with other church members. By shaming him, perhaps he would repent and thereby be restored to fellowship by God's grace before his death.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

Restoration to church fellowship after his repentance:

2 Corinthians 2:6-11
This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 8:55 PM

Aussie52 said:
How about: Heb 2:1,3;3:12;6:4-6;10:26-29,38;12:15,25;1 Pe 2:20-22. for starters!

Want to take them one by one ?

2:1 Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

The audience included the unsaved - this was largely addressed to them.

However, believers also can drift for a season and be called back by His Grace.

Our loving Father is not sitting on a cloud with a hammer waiting for believers to sin so He can pummel the living daylights out of them in all eternity.

He does not leave us to fail - He is faithful to make sure we succeed.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 9:00 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Want to take them one by one ?

2:1 Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

The audience included the unsaved - this was largely addressed to them.

However, believers also can drift for a season and be called back by His Grace.

Our loving Father is not sitting on a cloud with a hammer waiting for believers to sin so He can pummel the living daylights out of them in all eternity.

He does not leave us to fail - He is faithful to make sure we succeed.

Eisegesis!

Jan001 · Tuesday at 9:01 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Jeremiah 32

38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

This is a general statement, much like the following:

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 9:01 PM

Jan001 said:
"To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" means he excommunicated him; he denied him fellowship with other church members. By shaming him, perhaps he would repent and thereby be restored to fellowship by God's grace before his death.

Exactly... and so he did... He did not loose his salvation, by a season of discipline he was taught to honour God.

So your claim "If a saved person commits a grievous sin, he isn't saved anymore. His faith is dead."- turned out to be wrong, otherwise he couldn't be restored.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 9:02 PM

Aussie52 said:
Eisegesis!

Sorry ??? Did you mean Exit Jesus ???

Are you suggesting the audience was only believers ? Instead of accusing, show me where Scripture is not in support of my comment.

When we are faithless He is faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

Jan001 · Tuesday at 9:08 PM

Carl Emerson said:
This passage speaks of the difference between the saved and the unsaved - It makes no reference or comment about true believers with Good Soil falling away.

The difference between the "saved" people and the "unsaved" is the choices they make.

People can listen to the Holy Spirit and choose to obey him, or they can disregard what he tells them to do and commit sin.

Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Jan001 · Tuesday at 9:20 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Exactly... and so he did... He did not loose his salvation, by a season of discipline he was taught to honour God.

So your claim "If a saved person commits a grievous sin, he isn't saved anymore. His faith is dead."- turned out to be wrong, otherwise he couldn't be restored.

At any time during his life, a wicked (salvation lost) person can repent of his sins and thereby be restored to God's grace. God's Holy Spirit will keep calling him to repentance until he dies. Unfortunately, many wicked people prefer the pleasures derived from their sins, and they will not repent of them before they die.

Luke 15:3-7
So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Carl Emerson · Tuesday at 9:38 PM

Jan001 said:
This is a general statement, much like the following:

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

No way...

This is a specific reference to the conditions of the New Covenant for believers yet to come and fulfilled at the birth of the Church as Jesus said "He is with you and will be IN YOU..."

Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:​

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:​

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.​

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38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.