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Paul's argument against the idea that water baptism saves. (Implied)

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Dave...

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Fidelibus said:
You mean, post #67, correct?


What I denied on my post #72 was that back on your post #26 to concretecamper you said, "The Bible is sufficient", and I asked for the Book, Chapter and verse in Scripture where it says this, and you posted 2 Tim. 3: 14-17, correct? Well, my denial is that I don't believe the 2nd Timothy passages you quoted says "the Bible is sufficient" at all, do you not agree?


Well Dave, even when you highlighted those passages I didn't see where they said, "The Bible is sufficient". Then on my post#73 I asked you if these words ("The Bible is sufficient") are found anywhere in Scripture, and if so, to please provide the book, chapter and verse so I could look them up. Then I went on to say, if you cannot provide the book, chapter or verse, would it be safe to say that the words you posted, "The Bible is sufficient" are not in the Bible, but just your own personal words. Since you did not or could not, I can only conclude the latter.


To be honest Dave, apology or no apology, you were not very clear at all, for you failed to back up with Scripture your claim. However, here is another chance for you to provide the book, chapter or verse where it says in Scripture "The Bible is Sufficient". Thank you for your patience.

Have a Blessed Day!
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Ok, now I see.

Well, if I remember correctly, it's the KJV that uses the word 'sufficient' in that passage. But I'm going to guess that you were hanging your hat on the word "Bible". Your claim is that the Bible never says the Bible is sufficient, correct? That's what this whole chase was all about? Did I steal your closing argument? It's really not much of an argument as the words Bible, Scriptures, and Word of God all means the same thing to me. I don't include Catholicism and it's tradition with that, as it has already failed the test when compared to God's Word, the Bible. Remember, Jesus, when tested by Satan, said? it is tradition? No. He said it is written. Satan cannot beat the Word of God. Lean not unto...

Dave
 
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Lukaris

Lukaris

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Dave... said:
Galatians 3:26-29 is speaking of a spiritual baptism by faith, not water baptism. Did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing in faith? Can any of you answer those questions? What are we baptized into with/by the Holy Spirit?

Dave
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I received the Holy Spirit by grace through faith because I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior who calls us to live by faith by His commandments ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We are baptized into Christ his likeness in which we are to try to imitate in this life. When we die, this carries to in the likeness of his death & resurrection. He took on the Baptism of John & we should do likewise if we can. ( Ephesians 4:1-7, Romans 6:1-12, Galatians 3:26-29, John 3:5-7).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

MarkRohfrietsch

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Lukaris said:
I know the distinctions involved with scriptures I cited like Acts 10:44-48 & that the Holy Spirit fell on those who believed & then were baptized with water. God baptized the Israelites into Moses when the Red Sea was parted and was displeased when their faith wavered ( Exodus 14:26-31, 1 Corinthians 10:1-6). I also mentioned the distinctions when I cited 1 John 5:1-13 etc.

Sacramental worship is meant for participation of the believer in the way the Lord tells us ( John 4:24 etc.) with the community of believers ( Ephesians 4:1-6 etc.), & we need to know what this involves ( Galatians 3:26-29 etc.). I am speaking of those who believe in the role of the sacraments. I believe there are other valid faith understandings but Orthodoxy is sacramental ( like Catholicism, Lutheranism etc.).
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Well stated! Luther tied all this up nicely with his "Flood Prayer", which he added when he translated the baptismal liturgy from Latin to German. We maintain it's use to this day as we do with the exorcism right contained in our Liturgy.

Flood Prayer from Lutheran Service Book:
Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name(s)) according to Your boundless mercy and bless (him/her/them) with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in (him/her/them) which has been inherited from Adam and which they have committed since, would be drowned and die. Grant that (he/she/they) be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, (he/she/they) would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.​
Click to expand...
 
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Dave...

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Lukaris said:
I received the Holy Spirit by grace through faith because I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
Click to expand...

That's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know you disagree, but it's true. The error you're making is assuming that word 'baptism' is always speaking about water baptism. The false systems love to play on that and claim power for the types that point to spiritual truth. That keeps their false hierarchy in power and money. Just trust the Word of God, and approach it that way. Leave the systems at home and listen to God's Word. Don't try to box it in with systems, let God speak to you and He will show you.

Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit places us into Christ. We in Him, and He in us. A spiritual immersion. It's a baptism by faith.

Lukaris said:
We are baptized into Christ his likeness in which we are to try to imitate in this life.
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Yes, when we are placed into Christ, we strive to be more Christlike, completely yielding to the Holy Spirit and God's will. That's what the filling does. It's not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, it's being more under His control, yielding our every day decisions to God's will.

Lukaris said:
When we die, this carries to in the likeness of his death & resurrection.
Click to expand...

When we are spiritually placed into Him, we die with Him (Galatians 2:20) and are raised us with Him (Ephesians 2:6). This does not happen in or from water baptism, this happens when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that 'placing into with/by the Holy Spirit' that results from faith.

Paul describes it beautifully in Romans 6:3-11. This is not describing the result of being placed into water, but it is speaking of our being spiritually being placed into Christ by faith. Paul, when speaking of the indwelling in Romans 8:9-11 says the same thing. With the Spirit in us is the life, without the Spirit in us there is not life. Compare the two and you'll see.

Lukaris said:
He took on the Baptism of John & we should do likewise if we can. ( Ephesians 4:1-7, Romans 6:1-12, Galatians 3:26-29, John 3:5-7).
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These verses don't have anything to do with water baptism. John 3:5-7 point to Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, see John 3:13-16. Romans and Galatians say the opposite. Faith, not works save. Both those passages are speaking of the Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:1-7, again, one faith, one placing into, one immersion. What places us into Christ (the "one placing into" of Ephesians 4:5)? What makes us spiritually one with Jesus? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Life, which results from faith. Remember, Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the *Life.

I know you've probably been taught your whole life that those verses are talking about water baptism, but that's simply not true. With water baptism, you're speaking of earthy things. But what Jesus is trying to show you are heavenly things that those earthy things point to. Just let Him.

Dave
 
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Dan Perez

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concretecamper said:
So you were Baptized in the name of Paul? Ok
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And did I say THAT I was WATER. //. HYDOR , BAPTIZED. WHERE when I was 17 years old

and learned about DISPENSATION and PRE- MIL. AND PRE- TRI and know what it MEANS and today I am an. adult teacher their !!

dan p
 
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Lukaris

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Dave... said:
That's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know you disagree, but it's true. The error you're making is assuming that word 'baptism' is always speaking about water baptism. The false systems love to play on that and claim power for the types that point to spiritual truth. That keeps their false hierarchy in power and money. Just trust the Word of God, and approach it that way. Leave the systems at home and listen to God's Word. Don't try to box it in with systems, let God speak to you and He will show you.

Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit places us into Christ. We in Him, and He in us. A spiritual immersion. It's a baptism by faith.



Yes, when we are placed into Christ, we strive to be more Christlike, completely yielding to the Holy Spirit and God's will. That's what the filling does. It's not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, it's being more under His control, yielding our every day decisions to God's will.



When we are spiritually placed into Him, we die with Him (Galatians 2:20) and are raised us with Him (Ephesians 2:6). This does not happen in or from water baptism, this happens when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that 'placing into with/by the Holy Spirit' that results from faith.

Paul describes it beautifully in Romans 6:3-11. This is not describing the result of being placed into water, but it is speaking of our being spiritually being placed into Christ by faith. Paul, when speaking of the indwelling in Romans 8:9-11 says the same thing. With the Spirit in us is the life, without the Spirit in us there is not life. Compare the two and you'll see.



These verses don't have anything to do with water baptism. John 3:5-7 point to Pentecost and the giving of the Holy Spirit, the baptism with the Holy Spirit, see John 3:13-16. Romans and Galatians say the opposite. Faith, not works save. Both those passages are speaking of the Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:1-7, again, one faith, one placing into, one immersion. What places us into Christ (the "one placing into" of Ephesians 4:5)? What makes us spiritually one with Jesus? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Life, which results from faith. Remember, Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the *Life.

I know you've probably been taught your whole life that those verses are talking about water baptism, but that's simply not true. With water baptism, you're speaking of earthy things. But what Jesus is trying to show you are heavenly things that those earthy things point to. Just let Him.

Dave
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I know water doesn’t save us as I have repeatedly said. Why is water so wrong to apply as an outward witness in our baptism since it is so prevalent in the Bible? In John 3:5-7 ( for example.), I believe, the Lord is telling us everything. We break water as we are born into fallen existence. We receive the Spirit and are immersed as a sign of spiritual rebirth of being born again. The water is a sign of our being sealed in the Spirit upon putting our trust in the Lord ( Ephesians 1:12-14).

As I have also stated, the sacrament of baptism is a form of witness of telling our fellow believers that we believe what they believe ( Ephesians 4:1-6). We are warned throughout the Bible to not bear false witness ( Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 19:5, Proverbs 19:9, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 15:1-20 etc.).
 
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Dave... said:
Ok, now I see.
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Nice!
Dave... said:
Well, if I remember correctly, it's the KJV that uses the word 'sufficient' in that passage.
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Well, you are not sounding so sure about that, and I'm confident we both know why. :)
Dave... said:
But I'm going to guess that you were hanging your hat on the word "Bible".
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You are the one that said (or hung your hat) the "Bible" is sufficient, correct?
Dave... said:
Your claim is that the Bible never says the Bible is sufficient, correct?
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That is my claim, and asked you to show otherwise. Still waiting on that by the way.
Dave... said:
That's what this whole chase was all about?
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Nope....Just trying to get to the truth.
Dave... said:
Did I steal your closing argument?
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Nope, for there was no argument to steal.
Dave... said:
It's really not much of an argument as the words Bible, Scriptures, and Word of God all means the same thing to me.
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Where does it say that?
Dave... said:
I don't include Catholicism and it's tradition with that, as it has already failed the test when compared to God's Word, the Bible.
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Would this be your personal non-authoritative, fallible opinion?
Dave... said:
Remember, Jesus, when tested by Satan, said? it is tradition? No. He said it is written. Satan cannot beat the Word of God. Lean not unto...
Click to expand...
Yes, when Jesus said this, He was quoting from the Old Testament, mostly from Deuteronomy. Would you agree? And would you also agree, this is because the New Testament/Bible would not be fully compiled until the late 4th century.


Have a Blessed day!
 
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Dave...

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Lukaris said:
I know water doesn’t save us as I have repeatedly said. Why is water so wrong to apply as an outward witness in our baptism since it is so prevalent in the Bible? In John 3:5-7 ( for example.), I believe, the Lord is telling us everything. We break water as we are born into fallen existence. We receive the Spirit and are immersed as a sign of spiritual rebirth of being born again. The water is a sign of our being sealed in the Spirit upon putting our trust in the Lord ( Ephesians 1:12-14).

As I have also stated, the sacrament of baptism is a form of witness of telling our fellow believers that we believe what they believe ( Ephesians 4:1-6). We are warned throughout the Bible to not bear false witness ( Exodus 20:16, Proverbs 19:5, Proverbs 19:9, Matthew 19:16-19, Matthew 15:1-20 etc.).
Click to expand...

OK, I must have misunderstood you. My bad. It's a baptism by faith that places us into Christ Jesus. There are people, even in this thread, who believe that water baptism initiates the Spirit baptism. This teaching makes people think that the act of water baptism is the first step of salvation. And then they teach that they must then maintain that status of grace with the sacraments and works. And then, when they fall short of the matter, they teach that a person makes up the difference in a place called Purgatory. Nothing could be more offensive to the Gospel truth than that. It's deeply offensive.

By your post above, you seem to be in agreement with me and what I believe the Bible teaches. Again sorry. The Marxism word games are constant, so I have my guard up. Sometime I think that Catholicism invented Marxism.

Dave
 
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