Paul's argument against the idea that water baptism saves. (Implied)

ViaCrucis said:

I'm going to be a broken record here. But the Holy Spirit dwelling in us =/= baptism with the Holy Spirit. That is not something the Bible ever says.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself that you can't just invent your own ideas when it comes to the Bible.

Also, let me push back on what you said here. No, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't what makes us one with Jesus--the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is coterminous with our union with Jesus, but it is not the cause. The cause of our union with Christ is God's grace and work.

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Via

I've shown the Scripture that shows how we receive the Holy Spirit, what makes us one with Christ, justified and born again, what initiates that baptism/placing into/immersion, you just denied it. Please answer Paul's question in Galatians 3:2. Also, if that placing into is not into Christ Jesus by the indwelling, then what do you believe the baptism with the Holy Spirit places us into if not Jesus Himself? These are not my ideas. What does it say, Via? When does the life start?

Romans 8: But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Again, what does it say? (This time Paul's words, not mine)

Romans 10: But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

One plus one equals two. Believe, indwelt (baptism with/by the Holy Spirit), saved/delivered. Believe and be saved, that's the Gospel. Again, what does it say?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

What does it say, Via?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Dave's translation

For by/with one [Holy] Spirit we were all placed into one [spiritual] body, [Jesus Christ] --whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one [Holy] Spirit.

Again, please answer Paul's questions and really try to consider what is being said here.

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Liturgist said:

No, its a liturgical process, a means of grace.

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Without the Spirit, a person has no life. That means without the Spirit there is only the flesh and sin [by righteous standards]. Nothing a person does from the flesh will be good or pleasing to God because it's by the flesh, not the Spirit. Even after one has the Spirit in them, the flesh can only produce sin. It's the fruit of the Spirit that does good, and righteousness. Remember....there are none righteous, no not one, there are none that do good, no not one? That's us without the Spirit in us. The life begins after the initial faith. We begin that life, and the ability to obey God [by righteous standards], when we have the Life, the Spirit in us.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, **are you now being made perfect by the flesh?**

There is a distinction between the initial faith (believe), and the ongoing faith, called the life. And while they are connected and called the same faith, there is still a distinction between the initial faith (desire), and the life (Spirit powered) that must be made to interpret Scripture accurately. To use the two interchangeable makes a person use Scripture speaking of an already existing faith, called the life, to try to explain the initial believing, which is trust. That's not acceptable. That's typical Calvinism, but it's not Biblical. We receive that Life when we receive the indwelling, not before. It's that simple. Do you agree with this simple Biblical truth, yes or no? With Spirit indwelling, life, without Spirit indwelling, no life, just flesh. (Romans 8:7-14)

James is speaking of the evidences of one already in Christ and already justified and born again. This is the evidences of that Life, the Spirit indwelling. This is not the initial faith that gives us the Life. Do you see the difference?

See my post to Via.

What do you have that is [good], that you didn't receive? And if you did received it, why do you boast as if you did not? Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness. That's Jesus' righteousness, the righteousness of God (Romans 10:1-4), not Abraham's righteousness. Even Abram was justified by credit, and had to wait for the death, resurrection and ascension to be justified in reality. Romans 3:25-26.

When a person trusts in their own works for justification, they're under the Law and guilty. The good works are from God, not our flesh. Our flesh can only produce sin. We cannot justify ourselves. Jesus said that's it's impossible for man. Listen to James. James said that if a person breaks the Law at one point, one sin, then they're guilty of all, meaning you failed (James 2:10). Stop and consider that extremely profound statement made by James in the same chapter that you're quoting.

Is James saying the exact opposite of what Paul said in Romans? No, Paul is speaking of justification, our legal delivery from the penalty of the Law. James is speaking of evidences of a genuine faith, not justification before the Law. The ONLY merit that can save a person is what Jesus did. The ONLY way to receive that merit is to be 'placed into' Christ Jesus is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and only after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, and that indwelling. And that placing into is done by faith. That's what the baptism with the Holy Spirit places us into, Jesus. We must look at all Scripture and not cherry pick a few verses that have been deliberately mishandled to advance a false system of teaching. ALL Scripture must be used as context.

WHAT IS JAMES REALY SAYING?

James is speaking of becoming, or being conformed to Christlikeness. James's 'justification' is speaking of a justifying the claims of a genuine faith. Paul and James are not standing toe to toe, rather, they are standing back to back each confronting deferent attacks on the Gospel. Paul confronts the claims that man can justify himself by obedience to the Law, and James confronts the idea that one can claim a genuine saving faith without having evidences, the fruit of the Spirit. One is merit, justification, the other is evidence of one already in Christ and justified.

Romans 3:18-24 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Dave

The Liturgist said:

Indeed; we are baptized with the Holy Spirit when we are baptized with water, and then in Orthodox sacramental theology we receive the seal of the Holy Spirit through Chrismation immediately following Baptism.

By the way, an important point for my Orthodox friends such as @prodromos and @jas3 - many of us are concerned about Confirmation being delayed until adolescence, before Chrism is applied, however, Roman Catholic priests do also apply Chrism when baptizing infants, as well as a separate oil used to bless catechumens immediately before the baptism - Western Confirmation is a second annointing, which does not make it correct, but rather something to be analyzed, but at least we can relax in that while the Romans delay communion until around age 7, whereas we communicate children immediately in all Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, the Romans do not; I suppose also that given that many Roman RIte parishes even using the Novus Ordo Missae still do communion in one species only, it might be less safe for an infant to receive communion in that way rather than via the chalice and spoon using the extremely safe Orthodox method.

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I'll ask you the same question. Please notice the distinction of the faith that gives Life, and the faith that is the life.

Paul asks.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit [the Life] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit [the Life], are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Notice that words being made perfect when speaking of the result, or evidences of that life. It's the same word James used in James 2:20-24

There is a way that "saved" is used in Scripture and is speaking of being saved/delivered in a practical way. Meaning the transition to being conformed to Christlikeness and completely compliant to the Spirit and God's will is completed. There is also a sense in which the word "saved" in Scripture is not speaking of the completion of being conformed to Christlikeness, which only happens in glory, rather, it's speaking to our being conformed, or being delivered, being saved as a process, not in the sense of justification, but in the sense of practically becoming what God already reckons us to be in Christ. This is the sense that I believe James is using it. The Act of Abraham justified his faith in that moment. He didn't sit around and say I thought happy thoughts, therefore my faith was real in that moment. No, the faith that James is speaking about should be considered in the context of the act itself, as he used the word "justified" as in past tense makes it obvious. This has nothing to do with our being justified before God overall. This is justifying the faith at that moment from the act itself. Read James 2 below that way and you'll see.


1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool,"
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Liturgist said:

Your seem to forget that he asks the above in the same chapter wherein he declares “as many as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ, alleluia” and after explaining in 1 Corinthians how we are united to the Body of Christ, the Church, and partake of that Body. So attempting to invoke St. Paul in an anti-sacramental screed is eisegesis per se. It also presupposes erroneously that Baptism and Communion are works of the Law, which is preposterous; the New Testament makes it clear these are means of grace, of receiving the Spirit, and of obtaining remission of sins (and Christians can still sin despite not being under the Mosaic law).

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You seem to forget that the word baptism in Scripture doesn't always mean water baptism. In 1st Corinthians, and elsewhere, the context makes it abundantly clear which baptism he's speaking of. That baptism is by/with the Holy Spirit, not water (Please see Matthew 3:11-12 for a distinction, or maybe Acts 10:44-48, "just like Peter").

Please, no more games, if you can please answer the question. Also, please answer the other questions asked. Also, please finish giving me your definition of those passages I'm posting, as I have done for you. One thing that all false teachers do is avoid defining Scripture outside their theological sippy cups. Even though I disagree with your conclusion, at least this is a start. Then people can see for themselves how you approach Scripture.

Galatians 2:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Also

When does the life start?

Romans 8: But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

What is of the Law is determined by your motive, not the act.

Dave

The Liturgist said:

Not true, where the flesh is united with the Spirit, which it becomes through the sacraments.

Scripture refutes the idea of the flesh being entirely evil through the Incarnation of Christ - He put on our human nature, including our mortality, so that we could become immortal, as St. Paul wrote. He is fully man and fully God without change, confusion, separation or division.

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That's not what I said. Please read it again.

Here's the post again.

Dave... said:

Without the Spirit, you have no life. That means without the Spirit there is only the flesh and sin [by righteous standards]. Nothing you do from the flesh will be good or pleasing to God because it's by the flesh, not the Spirit. Even after one has the Spirit in them. Remember....there are none righteous, no not one, there are none that do good, no not one. That's us without the Spirit in us. The life begins after the initial faith. We begin that life, and the ability to obey God [by righteous standards], when we have the Life, the Spirit in us.

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, **are you now being made perfect by the flesh?**

There is a distinction between the initial faith (believe), and the ongoing faith, called the life. And while they are connected and called the same faith, there is still a distinction between the initial faith (desire), and the life (Spirit powered) that must be made to interpret Scripture accurately. To use the two interchangeable makes one use Scripture speaking of an already existing faith, called the life, with the initial believing trust. That's not acceptable. Scripture does not allow it. What you have done is taken the faith/life, the evidences of one already justified and born again, and placed that faith/life before the life was in that person, the Spirit, and used that as the cause of the initial faith. That's unacceptable. That's typical Calvinism, but it's not Biblical. We receive that Life when we receive the indwelling, not before. It's that simple. Do you agree with this simple Biblical truth, yes or no? With Spirit indwelling, life, without Spirit indwelling, no life, just flesh. (Romans 8:7-14)

James is speaking of the evidences of one already in Christ and already justified and born again. This is the evidences of that Life, the Spirit indwelling. This is not the initial faith that gives us the Life. Do you see the difference?

See my post to Via.

What do you have that is [good], that you didn't receive? And if you did received it, why do you boast as if you did not? Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness. That's Jesus' righteousness, the righteousness of God (Romans 10:1-4), not Abraham's righteousness. Even Abram was justified by credit, and had to wait for the death, resurrection and ascension to be justified in reality. Romans 3:25-26.

When you trust in your works, you ARE under the Law and guilty. These works, the ones that are good, are from God, not your flesh. You're flesh can only produce sin. You cannot justify yourself, for it is impossible for man, that's what Jesus said. Listen to James. James said that if you broke the Law at one point, one sin, then you are guilty of all, meaning you failed (James 2:10). Stop and consider that extremely profound statement made by James in the same chapter that you're quoting. Is James saying the exact opposite of what Paul said in Romans? No, James is speaking of evidences, not merit. The ONLY merit that can save a person is what Jesus did. The ONLY way to receive that merit is to actually be 'in Christ'. The ONLY way a person is 'placed into' Christ Jesus is with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, only after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, and that indwelling is received through that -placing into, immersion/baptism- with/by the Holy Spirit-, and that baptism is ONLY initiated by faith. We must look at all Scripture and not cherry pick a few verses that have been deliberately mishandled to advance a false system of teaching. ALL Scripture must be used as context.

WHAT IS JAMES REALY SAYING?

These are speaking of becoming, or being conformed to Christlikeness. This is the practical sanctification and is not justification before God. God already said we failed. Paul and James are not standing toe to toe, rather, they are standing back to back each confronting deferent attacks on the Gospel. Paul confronts the claims that man can justify himself by obedience to the Law, and James confronts the idea that one can claim a genuine saving faith without having evidences, the fruit of the Spirit. One is merit, justification, the other is evidence of one already in Christ and justified.

Romans 3:18-24 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Dave

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Lukaris said:

We all should understand that water doesn’t save us as Peter tell us ( 1 Peter 3:18-22) but he still notes it’s importance for practice of baptism. He established that for the baptism of the household of Cornelius ( Acts 10:44-48).

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you do know that Peter water baptized Cornelius after He received the Spirit, right?

Lukaris said:

I believe John gives us a major example of saving faith & the importance of witness to it in 1 John 5:1-13. Verses 1-5 clearly tell us faith in & living by the commandments of Christ are what save us. A person who may not have been immersed should not be judged outside of this. On the other hand, look at verses 6-13, clearly witness is not small change in faith observance. Especially when people could not read & life was harsh ( & still is in many places).

When people heard Paul’s preaching like in Romans 6:1-4, it seems ridiculous that he was deemphasizing associations John was speaking about with baptism.


Edit note: in my last paragraph where it says “deemphasizing” was originally posted as “discarded” which was inaccurate on my part.

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Nobody is saying not to obey the commandments. Your motives determine if your faith is genuine or trusting in works for justification. Faith, receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, then water baptism. It's obvious that the water baptism comes as a testimony after the fact, even if it's misinterpreted as coming at the same time or before in other passages. If you believe, you're indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Even if you're water baptized right after, it's the faith that places the Holy Spirit in a believers, which places us in Christ Jesus. You couldn't make water baptism place the Holy Spirit in a believer if you tried. Because water baptism is an outward expression of a faith that already exists. There was only one time in history when believers (who already had faith) had to wait, OT to NT (John 7:38-39). After the death, resurrection, and ascension, and all those true OT believers heard the Gospel and believed (the transition is over), that in the NT we receive the indwelling the moment we first believe. Again, even if you tried, there is not a delay bottony to be pushed that says but wait for the water!!!!!. When you believe, you receive.

Dave

Fidelibus said:

Hello Dave,

I was reading through the postings when I came across this posting of yours. I found it ironic you are saying this to another poster when failing to answer the questions I asked of you a page or two back. Hmmm...


Have a Blessed day!

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I did, post #68. You just denied it. I even highlighted it for you again in post #73, just in case you missed it. And then post #86, I apologized for not being able to say it any more clearly so you could understand.

Dave

Lukaris said:

Yes

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Do you also know that Cornelius was already declared righteous in promise (The righteousness of God Romans 3:25-26, 10:4) because he already had a genuine OT faith, just like Abraham (Romans 4:3, Acts 10:2)? He was a genuine OT believer, just like Lydia (Acts 16:14), just like all the people in Acts. Like Acts 19, the disciples of John the Baptist who had never heard the Gospel, but still had a genuine OT faith and were declared righteous in promise because of that faith. All those and more were given to the Son by the Father because they were genuine OT believers and predestined to believe the Gospel and be conformed to Christlikeness (Romans 8:28-29). Others, who already heard the Gospel and believed were due the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit indwelling (John 7:38-39), and were given the right to be Sons of God, born again, which would be the result of that placing into Christ by faith with the indwelling Spirit (John 1:12-13). And like the 120 (Acts 1:4-5), those who already believed the Gospel before Christ ascended, were owed that promise because they believed. That was a unique point in time in history, with unique circumstances that can never be repeated. Trying to form doctrines for today based on that unique point in time and it's unique circumstances is something that one must be very careful with. There are no more OT believers who are due the Promise of the Father. The transition is over. Try to stay in the Epistles if you can. They apply for us today in a historic sense accurately.

All those OT promises were fulfilled with the indwelling, that which places us into Christ Jesus, making us one with Him. A spiritual immersion. A spiritual placing into. With that spiritual union with Christ Jesus, being made one with Him, we are placed into His death and resurrection, dying with Him and being raised up with Him, born again. We are also imputed with the righteousness of God, that which justifies us, perfect obedience to the Law. And that perfect obedience to the Law made Him alone, Jesus, an acceptable sacrifice for our atonement. The Lamb of God without blemish. No made up purgatory makes a man an acceptable sacrifice because all men are stained with sin, blemished, and an unacceptable sacrifice.

It's "the" Holy Spirit that they were waiting for, the New covenant, a fulfillment of God's promises all the back to Ezekiel.

John 14:16-20, 26. John 15:26. John 16:7-16.

Here's the whole thing with regards to Cornelius.

Acts 11:14-17 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.' And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

Dave

Lukaris said:

I know the distinctions involved with scriptures I cited like Acts 10:44-48 & that the Holy Spirit fell on those who believed & then were baptized with water. God baptized the Israelites into Moses when the Red Sea was parted and was displeased when their faith wavered ( Exodus 14:26-31, 1 Corinthians 10:1-6). I also mentioned the distinctions when I cited 1 John 5:1-13 etc.

Sacramental worship is meant for participation of the believer in the way the Lord tells us ( John 4:24 etc.) with the community of believers ( Ephesians 4:1-6 etc.), & we need to know what this involves ( Galatians 3:26-29 etc.). I am speaking of those who believe in the role of the sacraments. I believe there are other valid faith understandings but Orthodoxy is sacramental ( like Catholicism, Lutheranism etc.).

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Galatians 3:26-29 is speaking of a spiritual baptism by faith, not water baptism. Did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing in faith? Can any of you answer those questions? What are we baptized into with/by the Holy Spirit?

Dave