1 Cor 16:2 can't be made to say "the main worship day for the NT church was always the first day of the week"

Jan001 · Monday at 9:28 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
Sure it is you just refuse to quote Acts 15:21 From your misunderstanding of these Scriptures Gentiles do not need to love God with all their heart, mind and soul because its not stated.

Here it is:

Acts 15:21
For in every city, for generations past, Moses has had those who proclaim him, for he has been read aloud every sabbath in the synagogues.”

The only Gentiles in the synagogues on Saturdays were circumcised, devout converts to Judaism. Christian Gentiles had not been in the synagogues on the Sabbath for many past generations. Christian Gentiles didn't exist until the first century AD!

Acts 13:43
When the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

SabbathBlessings · Monday at 9:51 AM

Jan001 said:
The only Gentiles in the synagogues on Saturdays were circumcised, devout converts to Judaism.

Once you read and understand the Scriptures about how Jesus removed this wall of separation at His death, what Paul was correcting Acts 15:1 not correcting people and teaching to disobey God and His commandments. 1Cor7:19

Jesus predicted His house of prayer on the Sabbath would be for All Nations- Jesus never destroyed His prophecies of the OT and I would also consider, in the Bible people served God and what He said, not the other way around. The ones who didn't were the ones in rebellion to God- we can make these same mistakes.

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

At the Cross Jesus took away that wall of separation of circumcision

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord

Which is exactly what the LORD predicted Isa 56:6-7 Gentiles are no longer separated from Israel and the promises of the covenant why the LORD said to keep the Sabbath and holdfast My covenant Isa56:6 because Gentiles are grafted into the same covenant promise made to Israel having the law of God written in their minds to do them and written in their hearts because we love God and want to keep His commandments which of course includes the 4th because God said it did so plainly Isa56:6 Exo20:8-11 Exo20:1-17 Exo20:6 Jer 31:33 Heb8:10 2Cor3:3

Which is why both Jews and Gentiles were in God's house of prayer keeping every Sabbath together, just as God predicted.

Acts 13:42 42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Why we see Sabbath-keeping was kept in every city, on every Sabbath for many many generations because this is God's written and spoken will Psa40:8 Exo30:18 Exo20:8-11

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

And the true fulfillment...

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

What God predicts always comes true...His house of prayer on the Sabbath will be for all nations. Why we see today Sabbath-keeping by millions and millions of people around the world, sadly a remnant Rev12:17 because most follow who changed God's Sabbath. Dan7:25

Sin separated man from God. We can worship God only in spirit but once Jesus comes, worship will continue back in His presence every Sabbath gathering before the LORD from one Sabbath to another. If we are so opposed to Sabbath worship now, would the God of love make people do this against their will for all eternity, I do not believe so, I believe His judgement is one of love because not everyone will be happy in a world without sin and living God's will John3:19-21

Jan001 · Monday at 11:24 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
Once you read and understand the Scriptures about how Jesus removed this wall of separation at His death, what Paul was correcting Acts 15:1 not correcting people to disobey God and His commandments.

Jesus predicted His house of prayer on the Sabbath would be for All Nations- Jesus never destroyed His prophecies of the OT and I would also consider, in the Bible people served God and what He said, not the other way around. The ones who didn't were the ones in rebellion to God- we can make these same mistakes.

The wall of separation between Jew and Gentile was removed by Jesus' death on the cross, and therefore the first covenant, with all its burdensome extra laws for the Israelites/Jews alone, became obsolete. Neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile is bound by them anymore.

SabbathBlessings said:
Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner (Gentiles)
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”

Isaiah 56 was fulfilled when the second temple was built. That is why Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the outer court, which was the Gentiles' designated place to pray.

SabbathBlessings said:
At the Cross Jesus took away that wall of separation of circumcision

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord

Which is exactly what the LORD predicted Isa 56:6-7 Gentiles are no longer separated from Israel and the promises of the covenant why the LORD said to keep the Sabbath and holdfast My covenant Isa56:6 because Gentiles are grafted into the same covenant promise made to Israel having the law of God written in their minds to do them and written in their hearts because we love God and want to keep His commandments which of course includes the 4th because God said it did so plainly Isa56:6 Exo20:8-11 Exo20:1-17 Exo20:6 Jer 31:33

Jesus made circumcision obsolete, just like he made the sabbath obsolete. He wiped out all of the first covenant laws concerning the sabbath, festival, dietary, and new moon laws.

SabbathBlessings said:
Heb8:10 2Cor3:3

Which is why both Jews and Gentiles were in God's house of prayer keeping every Sabbath together, just as God predicted.

Acts 13:42 42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Why we see Sabbath-keeping was kept in every city, on every Sabbath for many many generations because this is God's written and spoken will Psa40:8 Exo30:18 Exo20:8-11

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

I already explained this.

SabbathBlessings said:
And the true fulfillment...

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Prophetic language isn't meant to be understood in a literal manner.

Jesus cancelled all of these first covenant requirements with his death on the cross.

What does Jesus teach about where and how we will worship under his new covenant?
It certainly won't be in the temple in Jerusalem every Saturday!

John 4:21-24
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

SabbathBlessings · Monday at 11:47 AM

Jan001 said:
The wall of separation between Jew and Gentile was removed by Jesus' death on the cross, and therefore the first covenant, with all its burdensome extra laws for the Israelites/Jews alone, became obsolete. Neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile is bound by them anymor

Under the ceremonial system of circumcision and animal sacrifices the context to these passages- not the commandments of God. 1Cor7:19 how we love God and man Exo20:6 John14:15 spending time with God, joining ourselves to the LORD to serve Him Isa 56:6 should never be a burden, we should delight to do what He asks by love Exo20:6 John14:15 1John5:3 and worship to our Creator Rev14:7 Exo20:11 the burden was all those animal sacrifices that could never take away sins and the burden of sins- breaking the law of God 1John3:4 James2:10-12 everything Jesus came to free us from if one allows. Not set us free from doing justice and righteousness Isa56:1-2 1 John3:7 Psa 89:14 Rev14:12

Jan001 said:
Isaiah 56 was fulfilled when the second temple was built. That is why Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the outer court, which was the Gentiles' designated place to pray.

Not according to Jesus- He quoted this in His day and circumcision was still required at the second temple. That didn't end until the death of Christ as shown with clear Scriptures.

Jan001 said:
Jesus made circumcision obsolete, just like he made the sabbath obsolete. He wiped out all of the first covenant laws concerning the sabbath, festival, dietary, and new moon laws.

The sabbaths Paul quoted from, the handwritten ordinances Col2:14 by Moses 2Chron33:8 that were connected to the annual festivals, offerings and animal sacrifices that were beside the ark, Deut31:24-26. Not the weekly Sabbath that started before sin at Creation Exo20:11 and is part of God's Testimony Exo31:18 inside the ark Exo25:16 in heaven Rev11:19 written by the finger of God, that no one is above to edit a jot or tittle yet alone an entire commandment or two Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19 Ecc3:14 Rev22:18.

Not even your church believes what you're teaching- they boast they changed God's commandments based on their authority over God's- they claim this change is a mark of their authority over God's.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Jan001 said:
John 4:21-24
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

All of God's commandments are Truth Psa 119:151 because they were written by the Holy Spirit of Truth Exo31:18 false worship according to Jesus is laying aside the commandments of God for the traditions of man Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

Doing what God's says is righteousness Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 it eternal Psa 119:142 its the foundation of His throne Psa89:14 why Jesus in His own words did not make the Sabbath obsolete after His death Mat24:20 Isa66:23- hence why every Sabbath was kept decades and decades after His Cross. Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 Acts 17:2 just as God predicted Isa56:6-7 Mat24:20

No one can remove what God Blessed Num 23:20 and sad man thinks they can- God blessed the seventh day Sabbath Exo20:11 and blesses the man who keeps the Sabbath day holy Isa56:2 all man can do is forfeit their own blessings Psa 37:22 just as those who came before us Eze20:15-16 we are told in the NT not to follow in the same path of disobedience Heb4:11

God is eternal and He does not change Ecc3:14 , just because the majority follow your church and what they admit they changed without Scripture authority and that's a choice- but God's faithful remnant keep God's commandments Exo20:6 Rev14:12 Rev12:17 His version because there is no one else above Him and lives how Jesus said man should Mat4:4.

I will agree to disagree, God will sort all of this out soon enough Rev22:11

DamianWarS · Monday at 10:17 PM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, by loving our neighbor, it means we obey and loved God by doing so.

Yes, we can do good everyday but the seventh day was set aside (sanctified) by God, as it is the Sabbath of the Lord our God.

Isa 58:13 "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,

You're looking through a lens before it's revelation. It is no longer the creation week where light is spoken into darkness, and a transformation happens ending in rest. A new creation is declared, and it is about Christ's sanctification in us, and that's our focus (Gal 6:15). Just like creation week light is spoken into our darkness, a transformation happens in us, and no longer a day, but we are set apart and called holy. We are not the sabbath rest, but it is Christ's completed work in us that is.

DamianWarS · Monday at 10:55 PM

Studyman said:
I disagree with this entirely as does the Scriptures. To say Paul continued in the traditions and doctrines of the Pharisees, "because he was a devout Jew" contradicts everything both he and Jesus taught about the Pharisees and what it meant to be a "devout Jew". As Jesus Himself says, "For Salvation is of the Jews". Not the Pharisees or "Judaizers", but devout Jews like Zacharias, Caleb, David, Daniel, Shadrach, John the Baptist etc., and of course the most devout Jew of all, the Lord's Christ Himself.

I didn't say Paul continued to keep Pharisaical practices, but he was a devout Jew. Acts 18:18, shows his commitment to vows he has made. Luke shows a synagogue gathering on the sabbath regarding custom, not requirement

Luke 4:16 "And [Jesus] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day...
and we see the same with Paul
Acts 17:2 "Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures."

Luke goes out of his way to maintain a practice of custom, not requirement. The most consistent answer that the NT shows is that there is no special day to gather on, but the day we gather should be about one body and of unity, and we should not condemn others who keep another day. Passages like 1 Cor 16:2 may support a 1st day gathering practice as this pertained to the church of Corinth, but nowhere does it mandate 1st day as a gathering requirement, just as the 7th day equally is not mandated. Acts shows us emerging gathering traditions and a shift from synagogue gatherings; it is not prescriptive in this sense, it is descriptive.

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 2:51 AM

DamianWarS said:
You're looking through a lens before it's revelation. It is no longer the creation week where light is spoken into darkness, and a transformation happens ending in rest. A new creation is declared, and it is about Christ's sanctification in us, and that's our focus (Gal 6:15).

We can't be in the process of sanctification without first having the "faith/believe," when we believe we have to be baptized to become a new creation in Jesus. (Eph 2:10)

DamianWarS said:
Just like creation week light is spoken into our darkness, a transformation happens in us, and no longer a day, but we are set apart and called holy. We are not the sabbath rest, but it is Christ's completed work in us that is.

Yes, we are not the Sabbath, as the Sabbath was made for man or mankind. (anthropos)
It remains for the people of God. (Heb 4:9)

DamianWarS · Tuesday at 3:21 AM

Capbook2 said:
We can't be in the process of sanctification without first having the "faith/believe," when we believe we have to be baptized to become a new creation in Jesus. (Eph 2:10)

Indeed, but faith comes before law. Paul makes a point to show just that in Romans 4 with Abraham. Paul in fact goes out of his way to show it (v10) Christ is also a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek not of Levi (Heb 7) The Levitical priesthood is defined under law, but Christ's priesthood is defined outside of law and positioned as greater. "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well" (Heb 7:12)

Capbook2 said:
Yes, we are not the Sabbath, as the Sabbath was made for man or mankind. (anthropos)
It remains for the people of God. (Heb 4:9)

Heb 4 speaks of Sabbath abstractly connecting Joshua entering the promise land with Sabbath rest. It separates the idea that Sabbath is achroed to single day and instead can be received in the moment.

Lord of the Sabbath is a claim of authority over the Sabbath. If creation parallells the new creation Christ is still at the center, Sabbath remains for the people of God and for restorative reasons and Christ remains it's authority. Sabbath can only be given by one with authority, as see this right in the 4th as even animals take rest. Animals have no authority to rest, they cannot "take" it for themselves and it must be given to them and by the master, the one with the authority. This alone is a power salvation metaphor. The purpose of the Sabbath doesn't change, the legal code of the 4th points to it but the legal code itself is only binding in the covenant.

Back to Heb 7, Christ is the changed priesthood not defined under law and creation itself shows us Sabbath before legal code. The Sabbath Jesus offers is the Sabbath not under the legal code of the 4th, but it's Christ's to give as he authority over it (since he is Lord of the Sabbath). The legal code itself is made obsolete by Christ, and he users in a new and better way (Heb 8:13, Rom 7:6)

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 4:33 AM

DamianWarS said:
Indeed, but faith comes before law. Paul makes a point to show just that in Romans 4 with Abraham. Paul in fact goes out of his way to show it (v10) Christ is also a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek not of Levi (Heb 7) The Levitical priesthood is defined under law, but Christ's priesthood is defined outside of law and positioned as greater. "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well" (Heb 7:12)

Yes, the law of priesthood as you stated.

DamianWarS said:
Heb 4 speaks of Sabbath abstractly connecting Joshua entering the promise land with Sabbath rest. It separates the idea that Sabbath is achroed to single day and instead can be received in the moment.

Yes, it is only in this text that the Greek word "σαββατισμός sabbatismos" used, a derivative of Strong#G4521 which means " the seventh day of the week, a Sabbath keeping. In verse 10, we rest from work as God did rest from His.
The question when did God rest from His works, verse 4 state "God rested on the seventh day from all His works.

Is to refute quoting Hebrews 4:3, it states "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."

Heb 4:9 SoG686 there remainsG620 a SabbathG4520 restG4520 for the peopleG2992 of GodG2316.

Luk 23:56 ThenG2532 they returnedG5290 and R1preparedG2090 spicesG759 and perfumesG3464. And R2on the SabbathG4521 they restedG2270 accordingG2596 to the commandmentG1785.

G4520 (Thayer Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4521

G4521 (Thayer Lexicon)
σάββατον sabbaton
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work

DamianWarS said:
Lord of the Sabbath is a claim of authority over the Sabbath. If creation parallells the new creation Christ is still at the center, Sabbath remains for the people of God and for restorative reasons and Christ remains it's authority. Sabbath can only be given by one with authority, as see this right in the 4th as even animals take rest. Animals have no authority to rest, they cannot "take" it for themselves and it must be given to them and by the master, the one with the authority. This alone is a power salvation metaphor. The purpose of the Sabbath doesn't change, the legal code of the 4th points to it but the legal code itself is only binding in the covenant.

As "legal code" not a Biblical expression, may we know what you mean by it?

DamianWarS said:
Back to Heb 7, Christ is the changed priesthood not defined under law and creation itself shows us Sabbath before legal code. The Sabbath Jesus offers is the Sabbath not under the legal code of the 4th, but it's Christ's to give as he authority over it (since he is Lord of the Sabbath). The legal code itself is made obsolete by Christ, and he users in a new and better way (Heb 8:13, Rom 7:6)

Hebrews 8:13, speaks of the new covenant in verse 8-10, where God's Laws change was only of the of placement not the Law itself, by putting it in His people's mind and written in their heart. (2Cor 3:3)

Yes, from the letter in stones, now God's Laws the Ten Commandment in our hearts through the ministry of the Spirit which is more in glory.

2Co 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Leaf473 · Tuesday at 6:40 AM

BobRyan said:
We see repeated efforts on this area of the board to press 1 Cor 16:2 into saying something like "the main worship service for the NT church was always the first day of the week"

Or "the NT church met regularly for worship every first day of the week"

Or 'the first cay of the week was called the Lord's Day in the NT , the new day of worship for Christians"

INSTEAD of that ... here is what the text actually says:
1 Cor 16:
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

No mention of "let each one of you gather together"
No mention of "let each one walk across town"
No mention of "first day of the week is what we call the Lord's Day"
No mention of "first day of the week is our day of worship"

Acts 18:4 we have "Every Sabbath" gospel preaching to both gentiles and Jews in a worship service gathering.
But here in our one and only "every first day of the week" text... no mention of worship, preaching ,gathering

Certainly the text of 1 Cor 16:1-2 does mention 'activity' on every week day one (curiously no "Lord's Day" ref here):
But sadly for that suggestion the text goes the opposite direction from the idea of "the main day of worship has always been the first day of the week". ITs entire focus is on what one does "by himself" (alone at home, in his home) rather than a worship service gathering on a day that is called "The Lord's day"

======== so now the facts... inconvenient though they be.

AI

“let every one of you lay by him in store” (KJV)
“each of you is to put aside and save” (AMP)
“each one of you should set aside something” (MSG)

These translations consistently show individual, private action, not a public offering during an assembly.

Robertson –
Lay by him in store (par' eautwi titetw thsaurizwn).

By himself, in his home. Treasuring it (cf. Matthew 6:19. for thsaurizw). Have the habit of doing it, titetw (present imperative).
1 Corinthians 16 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)

2 one day of the week. Each of you keep at himself [Each of you keep, or lay up, at himself], keeping that that pleaseth to him(self), that when I come, the gatherings be not made.

KJV
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
2 On the first day of the week, each of you is to set something aside and save to the extent that he prospers, so that no collections will need to be made when I come.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
2On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.

Darby Translation (DARBY)
2On [the] first of [the] week let each of you put by at home, laying up [in] whatever [degree] he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

Acts 17 came to my mind - Paul reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and God-fearing Gentiles, and in the marketplace with those he met each day.

Studyman · Tuesday at 7:20 AM

Jan001 said:
No, we should not "believe just as they believed." All these men were still under the first covenant. We Christians are not.

That is just not true Jan001. Just like it isn't true that the Pharisees were trying to get the New Converts to obey the Law of Moses. Jesus forgave the Sins of all His Disciples, and didn't shed the Blood of even ONE Calf or Goat. This is because Jesus was the New Prophesied Priest of God, the moment after HE came out of the water, being anointed by a True Levite Priest John the Baptist. To say Jesus wasn't God's High Priest, under HIS Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant is simply not true according to the Holy Scriptures. Now I know there are many, "Who come in Christ's Name" who preach HE wasn't the High Priest of God until after the Jews murdered Him, and His Father Raised Him from the dead. just as there are "many" who Call Him Lord, Lord, that preach the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws. And we are free to believe whomever we Yield ourselves servants to believe.

But consider what you would have me believe here. I would have to reject "EVERY WORD" of the Law and Prophets, along with EVERY WORD Jesus spoke when describing the "religion of the Pharisees", in order to justify the popular religious philosophy of this world God placed us in, that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by obeying God's Commandments, and were trying to convert the New Converts into "Yielding themselves" a servant to obey God and become "Servants of God's Righteousness". Yes, there were men who promoted that we "Live By" EVERY Word that proceeds from the mouth of God, but it wasn't the Pharisees.

And now you would have me believe that Jesus wasn't God's High Priest until HE was murdered. That HE was "under the old covenant" which according to Scriptures was the Levitical Priesthood. Which means HE had no authority to forgive sins, and even if HE did, according to your own statements, HE was required to take the blood of a goat or bullock, that the Disciples would be required to bring to Him and kill them, and the Priest would sprinkle this blood on the alter before providing the forgiveness.

So to believe this philosophy you are promoting, Jesus transgressed God's Commandments and lied to the people, because HE wasn't a Levite Priest as required under the "old covenant", and HE never required His Disciples to kill a goat or calf, as required under the old covenant, and HE never sprinkled the blood on the alter for the remission of sins, as required under the Old Covenant.

But if I believe what is written, I would understand that Jesus became the High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek", the moment HE was anointed (baptized) by a true Levite Priest. That the New Covenant as defined by God in the Law and Prophets, began at that moment, as it is written; "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more".

Jan001 said:
Was Moses under the first covenant or Jesus Christ's new covenant? The first covenant.

Moses was instructed by God to create a Priesthood covenant, "After the Order of Aaron". Jesus ushered in the prophesied New Priesthood Covenant, after HE qualified for the position for over 20 years, "After the Order of Melchizedek". This Priesthood was ratified by Blood just as the "old priesthood" was ratified by blood. The Old was a shadow of the New. One main difference is that the old was ratified by animal blood, the New was ratified by the High Priests Own Blood.

This world's religions have always despised God's Judgments, rejected His commandments and Statutes and polluted His Sabbaths. The bible is full of prophesies concerning this world and those deceivers who come in Christ's Name HE warned about in the future. I simply advocate that a person reads God's Definition of His Own New Covenant. When they do, they will find God changed 2 things, according to His Own Words.

#1. the manner in which God's Laws are received.

#2. the manner in which sins are forgiven.

You can read it for yourself. All that's left is will you, or will you not believe. (I borrowed this from another poster.)

Time for me to move on. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss God's Word.

Studyman · Tuesday at 8:08 AM

DamianWarS said:
I didn't say Paul continued to keep Pharisaical practices, but he was a devout Jew.

So was Zacharias in Luke 1, and Simeon in Luke 2. So was Caleb in Numbers 14. David was a "Devout Jew". So was Shadrach and Meshack, and Daniel. Abraham was a devout Jew, and Noah. You can find the names of "many", not all devout Jews, in Heb. 11.

They all have one thing in Common with Jesus. They all "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God's Laws, God's Judgments, God's Statutes, and God's Laws, like Abraham, the father of the Jews did.

DamianWarS said:
Acts 18:18, shows his commitment to vows he has made. Luke shows a synagogue gathering on the sabbath regarding custom, not requirement

There is no requirement by God for His people to build man-made shrines of worship, and then gather there on God's Holy Sabbath. Such a tradition is not a Commandment of God, but another of many religious traditions of men adopted by the masses.

But if a person is seeking the Truth of God, and the Word of God can only be heard, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day, then of course, a man would go there to hear the Word of God being read by those who sit in Moses Seat.

As prophesied, we no longer have to go to the synagogues to hear the Word of God, we have the Word of God in our own homes, in our own hearts, now all we need in belief/Faith in the Inspired Words of God.

But there is a Commandment of God to Keep His Sabbath Holy.

Whether a man chooses to honor and respect God concerning His Commandments, is a voluntary humility. He doesn't make men Love Him, respect Him, Honor Him or "Yield themselves" to Him, or Glorify Him "as God". These are things HE instructs, but the choice to believe Him and "Do" them is a choice all men must make.

DamianWarS said:
Luke 4:16 "And [Jesus] came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day...
and we see the same with Paul
Acts 17:2 "Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures."

Can you tell me where the "Scriptures" existed in Paul's Time? And if I wanted to "Reason with folks from the Scriptures", would I not need access to the Scriptures?

I don't believe you have placed a lot of thought into what you have adopted and are now promoting. I have the Oracles of God in my own home now. It is my "custom" to read them often and dwell on the Words written within them. And this because of the Christ, the Word of God who became Flesh, taught me to do this.

Duet. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

This Same Christ, also became Flesh in the Person of Jesus, and instructed the same exact thing.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So it is my custom because MY Father instructed me to do these things. But this is not a tradition of men. It is God's instruction in righteousness.

DamianWarS said:
Luke goes out of his way to maintain a practice of custom, not requirement.

There are "many", who call Jesus Lord Lord, according to Jesus, who also believed that Honoring God with obedience isn't a required in the life of a believer, to overcome in this world. This popular teaching was first recorded from a sermon of the very first mainstream preacher that exists in the world God placed all humans in. This preacher also "professed to know God" but promoted that Yielding ourselves in honor, respect and obedience to the Father isn't a requirement to overcome in this life.

I have come to understand that this is a great deceit, and as written, EVERYONE who adopted this religious philosophy fell in the wilderness, were overcome by wickedness and departed from the living God to their own demise.

DamianWarS said:
The most consistent answer that the NT shows is that there is no special day to gather on, but the day we gather should be about one body and of unity, and we should not condemn others who keep another day. Passages like 1 Cor 16:2 may support a 1st day gathering practice as this pertained to the church of Corinth, but nowhere does it mandate 1st day as a gathering requirement, just as the 7th day equally is not mandated. Acts shows us emerging gathering traditions and a shift from synagogue gatherings; it is not prescriptive in this sense, it is descriptive.

The Pharisees justified their rejection of God's Commandments and Judgments as well. As did the wicked Kings of Israel. For me, I believe we should seek the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness, and "HIS" Truth. Not justification for an adopted religious philosophy.

But that's me.

DamianWarS · Tuesday at 8:52 PM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the law of priesthood as you stated.

Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

if the priesthood changes the law changes too

Capbook2 said:
Yes, it is only in this text that the Greek word "σαββατισμός sabbatismos" used, a derivative of Strong#G4521 which means " the seventh day of the week, a Sabbath keeping. In verse 10, we rest from work as God did rest from His.
The question when did God rest from His works, verse 4 state "God rested on the seventh day from all His works.

Is to refute quoting Hebrews 4:3, it states "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."

Heb 4:9 SoG686 there remainsG620 a SabbathG4520 restG4520 for the peopleG2992 of GodG2316.

Luk 23:56 ThenG2532 they returnedG5290 and R1preparedG2090 spicesG759 and perfumesG3464. And R2on the SabbathG4521 they restedG2270 accordingG2596 to the commandmentG1785.

G4520 (Thayer Lexicon)
σαββατισμός sabbatismos
1) a keeping sabbath
2) the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4521

G4521 (Thayer Lexicon)
σάββατον sabbaton
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work

Heb 4 doesn't speak of keeping a practice of 7 day keeping, it speaks of aceess of the rest of the 7th day available for all days. v7 shows this saying the day is "today"

Capbook2 said:
As "legal code" not a Biblical expression, may we know what you mean by it?

"legal code the systematic, organized collection of written laws enacted by a governing authority. It outlines rules of conduct for society, procedures for law enforcement, and penalties for violations"

It it the formal letter of the law used for legal purpose in its governing system. Other terms like "God's law", "moral law" "God's commadments" tend to be loaded and are used to separate law into post biblical categories. My use of "legal code" is indiscriminate intended for all law, not a subset post biblical category that can't be biblically supported.

Capbook2 said:
Hebrews 8:13, speaks of the new covenant in verse 8-10, where God's Laws change was only of the of placement not the Law itself, by putting it in His people's mind and written in their heart. (2Cor 3:3)

Yes, from the letter in stones, now God's Laws the Ten Commandment in our hearts through the ministry of the Spirit which is more in glory.

2Co 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

As discussed
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

there is clearly a change of law. For example circumcision and the scarafical system. this is not merely the placement from stone to heart this is an irrefutable change. We still value circumcision and the sacrafice but not through the legal code (letter) of the law, but through Christ. what you want to say is something along the lines that moral law stays unchanged and scarafical and ceremonial changes, but then that would conflict your statement that it's only the placement that changes not the law itself. It also requires the use of post biblical terms used to separate law that are not biblically supported.

2 Cor 3 speaks of the tablets of a ministry of death and condemnation. Are you saying the words of the ministry of death are verbatim copied to our hearts? What is upon our hearts is not of the letter but the Spirit (v6) who is life giving not of death. the passage also refers to the covenant through a veil that has been lifted, yet some still see through the veil (12-18). The 10 are a part of this veil as they are a part of the covenant. A verbatim copy and paste includes the veil, what we have on our hearts is without the veil.

DamianWarS · Tuesday at 11:18 PM

Studyman said:
So was Zacharias in Luke 1, and Simeon in Luke 2. So was Caleb in Numbers 14. David was a "Devout Jew". So was Shadrach and Meshack, and Daniel. Abraham was a devout Jew, and Noah. You can find the names of "many", not all devout Jews, in Heb. 11.

They all have one thing in Common with Jesus. They all "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God's Laws, God's Judgments, God's Statutes, and God's Laws, like Abraham, the father of the Jews did.

Hebrews 11 does not speak of anyone as a devout Jew. I would not call Abel, Noah or Abraham "Jews". Paul was a devout Jew in that he kept covenant law (as far as we know), but he did not keep the law in ignorance; he kept it knowing its purpose. He taught the purpose, not the legal code. Heb 11 speaks of acts of faith over acts of any legal code, giving specific examples of individuals before any codification. "God's Laws, God's Judgments, God's Statutes" is universal in the abstract sense. For Abraham, Noah, and Abel, it was not about keeping legal code (because there was no legal code) it was about faith. The 10 are the legal code in a covenant system; they are God's law masked by a covenant veil. What Heb 11 speaks of is an obedience of faith that is beyond legal code and veil obscurity.

Studyman said:
There is no requirement by God for His people to build man-made shrines of worship, and then gather there on God's Holy Sabbath. Such a tradition is not a Commandment of God, but another of many religious traditions of men adopted by the masses.

But if a person is seeking the Truth of God, and the Word of God can only be heard, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day, then of course, a man would go there to hear the Word of God being read by those who sit in Moses Seat.

As prophesied, we no longer have to go to the synagogues to hear the Word of God, we have the Word of God in our own homes, in our own hearts, now all we need in belief/Faith in the Inspired Words of God.

But there is a Commandment of God to Keep His Sabbath Holy.

Whether a man chooses to honor and respect God concerning His Commandments, is a voluntary humility. He doesn't make men Love Him, respect Him, Honor Him or "Yield themselves" to Him, or Glorify Him "as God". These are things HE instructs, but the choice to believe Him and "Do" them is a choice all men must make.

Holy place, person and sacrifice are classic parts of religious systems that Christianity fulfills through Christ, where he is our priest, he is our sacrifice, and we become the holy place when the spirit is a part of us. No need to visit religious places, days or people, as Christ says to the woman at the well, "the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." Sabbath law is a system with a holy/secular divide where the new covenant tears this veil, releasing this divide. Holy is no longer a special place or time; instead, it is what God has made us through the death and resurrection of Christ and through his Spirit within us. Without Christ, the divide is needed; with Christ, the divide becomes counter-gospel for those of Christ. If the spirit is within me, wherever and whenever my feet are is holy, apart from God I am nothing, only through the death and resurrection of Christ and the spirit in me can I be called holy, and that holiness is not limited by time or space.

Studyman said:
Can you tell me where the "Scriptures" existed in Paul's Time? And if I wanted to "Reason with folks from the Scriptures", would I not need access to the Scriptures?

I don't believe you have placed a lot of thought into what you have adopted and are now promoting. I have the Oracles of God in my own home now. It is my "custom" to read them often and dwell on the Words written within them. And this because of the Christ, the Word of God who became Flesh, taught me to do this.

Duet. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

This Same Christ, also became Flesh in the Person of Jesus, and instructed the same exact thing.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So it is my custom because MY Father instructed me to do these things. But this is not a tradition of men. It is God's instruction in righteousness.

Paul was in the synagogues using Jewish scripture to unpack the realities and revelation in Christ. They already knew the legal code. Paul was not using this to preach the 10 commandments; he was using it to reveal Christ and preach his gospel. What is "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" You seem to want to collapse this into the 10 commandments, but it can't only mean that and must mean the entire covenant system, as well as the prophets. God spoke the 10 in Ex 20; He also spoke the other commandments in Ex 21, 22, and 23. But your focus is only on the 10, which makes the position incoherent.

I won't comment on your remaining post

Capbook2 · Wednesday at 2:57 AM

DamianWarS said:
Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. Was it wrong to call the old covenant the ministry of death? No, because that is what the law does to us: It slays us as guilty sinners before God so that we can be resurrected by the new covenant. It isn’t that the problem was with the law, but with us: The sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to deathWas it wrong to call the old covenant the ministry of death? No, because that is what the law does to us: It slays us as guilty sinners before God so that we can be resurrected by the new covenant. It isn’t that the problem was with the law, but with us: The sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to deathHeb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

if the priesthood changes the law changes too

Through context, all was about the priesthood law, as Jesus would serve as the ultimate High Priest, came from the tribe of Judah, a tribe Mosaic Law gave no priesthood authority to. Because Jesus did not fit the original criteria, His appointment required a change in the law.

It was even prophesied beforehand. (Psa 110:4)

Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

DamianWarS said:
Heb 4 doesn't speak of keeping a practice of 7 day keeping, it speaks of aceess of the rest of the 7th day available for all days. v7 shows this saying the day is "today"

Yes, verse 7, speaks of "today" as they may not harden their hearts,” in the day of temptation in the wilderness, they always go astray in their heart, and these have not known My ways, they will not enter into that rest.

I believe the scenario based on the context was when the Israelites were on the wilderness, and the "rest" is defined as putting to rest, a resting place, etc.

Heb 4:7 again He limits a certain day, “Today,” in David saying, after so long a time, as it has been said, “Today, if you may hear His voice, you may not harden your hearts,”

Heb 3:7 For this reason, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you may hear His voice—
Heb 3:8 you may not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of the temptation in the wilderness,
Heb 3:9 in which your fathers tempted Me; they proved Me, and saw My works for forty years;
Heb 3:10 for this reason I was grieved with that generation and said, They always go astray in their heart, and these have not known My ways;
Heb 3:11 R1AS I SWOREG3660 IN MY WRATHG3709, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTERG1525 MY RESTG2663.'"

G2663
κατάπαυσις katapausis
Thayer Definition:
1) a putting to rest
1a) calming of the winds
2) a resting place

DamianWarS said:
"legal code the systematic, organized collection of written laws enacted by a governing authority. It outlines rules of conduct for society, procedures for law enforcement, and penalties for violations"

May we know what is the Biblical term of that?

DamianWarS said:
It it the formal letter of the law used for legal purpose in its governing system. Other terms like "God's law", "moral law" "God's commadments" tend to be loaded and are used to separate law into post biblical categories. My use of "legal code" is indiscriminate intended for all law, not a subset post biblical category that can't be biblically supported.

Ok, not a Biblical term which cannot be defined by credentialed Bible Lexicographers.

DamianWarS said:
As discussed
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

there is clearly a change of law. For example circumcision and the scarafical system. this is not merely the placement from stone to heart this is an irrefutable change. We still value circumcision and the sacrafice but not through the legal code (letter) of the law, but through Christ. what you want to say is something along the lines that moral law stays unchanged and scarafical and ceremonial changes, but then that would conflict your statement that it's only the placement that changes not the law itself. It also requires the use of post biblical terms used to separate law that are not biblically supported.

I'm sorry, as I prefer Biblical statements.
Yes, I believe the only change of God's Laws was the placement and not the God's Laws itself.
As Paul's Hebrews 8:8-10 was a quote from Jeremiah 31:31-33 in the Old Testament, if such interpretation of change especially about the seventh day Sabbath have been made, Luke 23:56, would have not happened, "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment."

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Luk 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

DamianWarS said:
2 Cor 3 speaks of the tablets of a ministry of death and condemnation. Are you saying the words of the ministry of death are verbatim copied to our hearts?

Was it wrong to call the letters in stones the ministry of death? No, because that is what the law does to us: It slays us as guilty sinners before God so that we can be resurrected by the new covenant. It isn’t that the problem was with the law, but with us: The sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

But when transferred to our hearts, the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious, we're been released/freed from the Law, (Rom 7:6) as being freed from sin through the guidance of the Spirit and became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:18)

Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

DamianWarS said:
What is upon our hearts is not of the letter but the Spirit (v6) who is life giving not of death. the passage also refers to the covenant through a veil that has been lifted, yet some still see through the veil (12-18). The 10 are a part of this veil as they are a part of the covenant. A verbatim copy and paste includes the veil, what we have on our hearts is without the veil.

Yes, when guided by the ministry of the Spirit in our hearts, and not opting to our own will but of the Spirit, we'll became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:18)

Studyman · Wednesday at 7:54 AM

DamianWarS said:
Hebrews 11 does not speak of anyone as a devout Jew. I would not call Abel, Noah or Abraham "Jews".

This mindset you have, is because you don't believe Jesus or Paul's definition of a "Jew" AKA, "a child of Abraham". If you did, you would know there is neither Jew or Gentile DNA in the Church of God. That God doesn't judge men by the DNA they were born with, rather, the Love, honor and devotion to God that exists in their heart. This Love for God is shown by their works. It is called "Faith". As Paul teaches,

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sadly, many who call Jesus Lord, Lord, as Jesus teaches us in Matt. 7, are only interested in justifying their own words and their own adopted religious philosophies, instead of "Seeking" God's Truth in a discussion about Scriptures. So as has been the case for some time now, this discussion will probably accomplish nothing. Men will continue to justify their every word, promote "their" interpretation, not Paul's or Christ's, concerning what a "Jew" even is, and this conversation will be fruitless.

Wouldn't it be great to be free to discuss the Word of God, the Light of this world openly, seeking God Truth for the very purpose "that our deeds may be made manifest, whether or not they are wrought in God?"

DamianWarS said:
Paul was a devout Jew in that he kept covenant law (as far as we know), but he did not keep the law in ignorance; he kept it knowing its purpose. He taught the purpose, not the legal code.

This is your philosophy, not Paul's. Paul taught that God's LAW "IS" God's Legal AKA, "Lawful" code. The purpose of any LAW, is to relegate the person who yield's themselves to it, as "Lawful". I don't know where you are receiving your teaching from. It isn't from Jesus or Paul.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

DamianWarS said:
Heb 11 speaks of acts of faith over acts of any legal code, giving specific examples of individuals before any codification.

This is just not true Sir. In every example of Faithful man given to us by God, the difference between a Faithful man and a man of no faith, is determined by whether they walked in God's Laws, defined by Paul as "Walking in the Spirit", or not.

"Faith" is belief shown by works. Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments because he "Believed God". The men of Sodom didn't believe God, and therefore "Transgressed God's Commandments, AKA "Sinned".

It's very simple as Paul teaches, "The Simplicity of Christ".

DamianWarS said:
"God's Laws, God's Judgments, God's Statutes" is universal in the abstract sense. For Abraham, Noah, and Abel, it was not about keeping legal code (because there was no legal code) it was about faith.

Again, you claim God didn't show Abraham "The Way of the Lord", or "God's Laws, God's Judgments, God's Statutes" (Legal Code). And you are free to adopt and promote any religious philosophy you want. But who is teaching you these things? How will Abraham "Command" his children, and his household after him, to "Do Justice and Judgment", if God didn't tell him or show him What "Justice and Judgment" is?

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, "to do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

To imply that you are privy to every Word God said to Abraham, to the point of preaching there was no definition of "Lawful" and not "Lawful" or as you define it, "Legal Code" is a little over the top in my view?

But I digress, it is time for me to move on as such discussions, for the reasons I posted, are unfruitful.

Tit. 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

1 Cor 16:2 can't be made to say "the main worship day for the NT church was always the first day of the week"

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