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When did the anti-Israel stance start from the right?

Stopped_lurking

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Yeah, I can't justify pulling Feb 2026 out of context like that.

In WW2, about 2-3% of the German civilian population died as a result of the war. In Gaza, about 2-3% of the Gazan population (and remember that this figure INCLUDES Hamas terrorists, not just civilians) died as a result of the recent war. Approximately 0.0039% to 0.0067% of the Iranian population has died as a result of the military conflict with the United States and Israel since Feb 2026.

That that number is heavily influenced by the length and type of conflict, and which weapons are available.

Was it wrong to fight against the Axis powers in WW2 based on that percent of civilian casualties, which was higher than both the war in Gaza and the recent offensive in Iran?

No, they started WW2. Strategic bombings was used levelling large parts of cities (which was a major source of german civilian deaths). Germany was working under a doctrine of total war, so a lot of more targets were seen as justified. Even so, it is discussed from time to time if the bombings of Dresden in february 1945 were justified.

Also the fact is the US started a war with Iran in 2026. The US claims that it is trying to spare civilians, so the best comparator to determine how that is working is to look at a soldier to civilian ratio (Germany in WW2, 4000000 soldiers to 500000 civilians), the numbers are still discussed so say between so let's say 7-9 soldiers were killed per civilian to leave some room for some uncertainty. This was in a war that didn't have precision guided munitions.

We don't have the final tally of the distribution of civilian and soldier deaths in Iran yet, but some napkin math with the data from HRANA (Day 39 of U.S. and Israeli Attacks on Iran: Extensive Damage to the Rail Network and Roads - Hrana) and the Jerusalem Post (More than 6,000 IRGC members killed since start of Iran war | The Jerusalem Post) gives the ratio of ca 1 to 1 (HRANA, I do think this is understating the iranian military losses) or ca 4 to 1 (jpost + HRANA for the civilian deaths). These are not numbers to brag about, in an age of precision munitions, and a war that was fought with those munitions.

Killing civilians in war of one's own choosing is much harder to justify. Saying that it is for the civilians benefit seem cruel (I'm sorry you had to die, but that is a sacrifice I was prepared to make). It is of little comfort to the dead or their families.
 
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Lukaris

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Only until 1997, the IAEA made inspections all the way until 2003 showing that Iraq wasn't trying to working on WMDs. IAEA managed to correctly assess that situation.
Albright was part of that IAEA team as I said already. I have copied and pasted portions of a testimony of Albright before congress in April 2017. This was from a pdf to my iPhone & awkward but connected & I have the 12 page report linked.

As far as problems from Iran with the JCPOA:


Testimony of David Albright,

President of the

Institute for Science and International Security,

before the House Subcommittee on National Security,

Committee of Oversight and Government Reform

Assessing the Iran Deal: Examining Iranian Non-Compliance with the Joint

Comprehensive Plan of Action and United Nations Security Council

Resolution 2231

April 5, 2017



From this testimony:


Iran continues to test ballistic missiles that are inconsistent with or in violation of UN Security

Council resolution 2231. Iran’s ongoing development of missiles capable of carrying nuclear

weapons is a direct threat to the nuclear deal and cannot be treated as somehow unrelated to the

JCPOA.



Heavy Water

Iran has twice had more than its heavy water limit of 130 metric tonnes inside Iran, as has been

noted by the IAEA in its quarterly reports. As it was approaching its second violation, the IAEA

warned Iran that it would soon reach the cap. Instead of stopping heavy water production or

blending down some heavy water into normal water, Iran knowingly violated the 130 metric

tonnes cap




One of the most serious compliance issues concerns Iran’s on-going refusal to allow the IAEA to

access military sites and interview personnel…………
Because of fears that such access requests could torpedo the JCPOA, the IAEA and

the Obama administration resisted pushing Iran to allow access to military sites. Therefore, the

JCPOA remains largely unverified by the IAEA on the nuclear weapons development side…….



In addition, fear of derailing the JCPOA negotiations or the agreement itself led to a poorly

designed arrangement between Iran and the IAEA on investigating and drawing conclusions

about alleged nuclear weapons-related high explosive work at a site at the Parchin military

complex. Not surprisingly, this weak arrangement in which the IAEA was limited in its visits

and sample taking at the site, failed to resolve the issue. Moreover, it put the IAEA in a weaker

position to access the Parchin site in the future to resolve this issue, which includes making sense

out of uranium particles detected by environmental sampling taken the one time the IAEA visited

the site. The presence of these particles combined with many previous, suspicious site

alterations by Iran are dramatic evidence that Iran likely conducted secret nuclear weapons

activities at Parchin, despite Iran’s on-going denials. However, the IAEA has not been able to

make that conclusion.


Inhibition of Investigation into Iran’s Past Military Nuclear Program.

…..
To this day, the IAEA has not been able to state that

Iran has addressed its concerns and questions about past nuclear weapons activities or to

determine the exact status of what Iran achieved and may have hidden away




Natural Uranium Imports. The Procurement Working Group recently allowed Iran to acquire

149 metric tonnes of natural uranium in payment for Iranian heavy water exported to Russia

instead of cash. The receipt of this uranium, which contributes to building Iran’s nuclear

capability, is an added benefit Iran did not deserve. Iran’s nuclear chief proclaimed that this

decision would allow Iran to have 60 percent more stockpiled uranium than it did prior to the

JCPOA. Ali Akbar Salehi, the head of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, was quoted by

the semi-official Fars News Agency stating that Iran would receive a final batch of 149 metric

tonnes of natural uranium, in addition to 210 metric tonnes already delivered since early 2016.

The 149 metric tonnes of uranium were received instead of a cash payment for part of its cache

of heavy water in Oman, heavy water that should have instead been blended down into normal

water, if the deal had been seriously enforced. Interestingly, the caching of heavy water in Oman

and the decision to approve sending natural uranium to Iran were considered secret by the Joint

Commission and the Obama administration. These 149 metric tonnes, if enriched to weapon-

grade uranium, would be enough for over 15 nuclear weapons.



Export Controls

According to the JCPOA, “Iran intends to apply nuclear export policies and practices in line with

the internationally established standards for the export of nuclear material, equipment and

technology (emphasis added).”12 Iran has not committed to do so, and Tehran could interpret

this condition far differently than the United States



 
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Meowzltov

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Also the fact is the US started a war with Iran in 2026.
Maybe if you say this 100x it will magically come true. I'm sorry but this is just self-deceit. If you look at just the one previous year, Iran committed numrous acts of war. You are seeing what you want to see.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Maybe if you say this 100x it will magically come true. I'm sorry but this is just self-deceit. If you look at just the one previous year, Iran committed numrous acts of war. You are seeing what you want to see.

What do you mean? What war was ongoing between the US and Iran during the 1990s, 2000s, 2010s (what acts of war did Iran conduct against the US)? You made a statement about some ongoing war for the last 47 years, but there was no ongoing war between the US and Iran.

Do you allude to the US bombings of Iran in 2025? That was a US attack. Did Iran even fire upon any B2 bombers (I've not read anything about it)?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Albright was part of that IAEA team as I said already.

But not in the run-up to the Iraq war and not in relation to the negotiations of JCPOA. He was affiliated with IAEA until 1997.

I have copied and pasted portions of a testimony of Albright before congress in April 2017. This was from a pdf to my iPhone & awkward but connected & I have the 12 page report linked.

As far as problems from Iran with the JCPOA:


Testimony of David Albright,

President of the

Institute for Science and International Security,

before the House Subcommittee on National Security,

Committee of Oversight and Government Reform

Assessing the Iran Deal: Examining Iranian Non-Compliance with the Joint

Comprehensive Plan of Action and United Nations Security Council

Resolution 2231

April 5, 2017



From this testimony:


Iran continues to test ballistic missiles that are inconsistent with or in violation of UN Security

Council resolution 2231. Iran’s ongoing development of missiles capable of carrying nuclear

weapons is a direct threat to the nuclear deal and cannot be treated as somehow unrelated to the

JCPOA.

Not an actual part of JCPOA.

Heavy Water

Iran has twice had more than its heavy water limit of 130 metric tonnes inside Iran, as has been

noted by the IAEA in its quarterly reports. As it was approaching its second violation, the IAEA

warned Iran that it would soon reach the cap. Instead of stopping heavy water production or

blending down some heavy water into normal water, Iran knowingly violated the 130 metric

tonnes cap

Which Iran complied with in subsequent IAEA reports.

One of the most serious compliance issues concerns Iran’s on-going refusal to allow the IAEA to access military sites and interview personnel…………
Followed with that IAEA was satisfied with the answers given by Iran.


Because of fears that such access requests could torpedo the JCPOA, the IAEA and the Obama administration resisted pushing Iran to allow access to military sites. Therefore, the JCPOA remains largely unverified by the IAEA on the nuclear weapons development side…….

This is commentary, not evidence.

In addition, fear of derailing the JCPOA negotiations or the agreement itself led to a poorly designed arrangement between Iran and the IAEA on investigating and drawing conclusions about alleged nuclear weapons-related high explosive work at a site at the Parchin military complex. Not surprisingly, this weak arrangement in which the IAEA was limited in its visits and sample taking at the site, failed to resolve the issue. Moreover, it put the IAEA in a weaker position to access the Parchin site in the future to resolve this issue, which includes making sense out of uranium particles detected by environmental sampling taken the one time the IAEA visited the site. The presence of these particles combined with many previous, suspicious site alterations by Iran are dramatic evidence that Iran likely conducted secret nuclear weapons activities at Parchin, despite Iran’s on-going denials. However, the IAEA has not been able to make that conclusion.

And how has Albright been able to draw that conclusion, if IAEA has not been able to? Please note the sleight of hand in his presentation, something is dramatic evidence of something that is likely. This is agenda-driven.

Inhibition of Investigation into Iran’s Past Military Nuclear Program.

…..
To this day, the IAEA has not been able to state that

Iran has addressed its concerns and questions about past nuclear weapons activities or to

determine the exact status of what Iran achieved and may have hidden away

That was how JCPOA was negotiated. When the deadline approached IAEA did present a report in december 2015.

Natural Uranium Imports. The Procurement Working Group recently allowed Iran to acquire

149 metric tonnes of natural uranium in payment for Iranian heavy water exported to Russia

instead of cash. The receipt of this uranium, which contributes to building Iran’s nuclear

capability, is an added benefit Iran did not deserve. Iran’s nuclear chief proclaimed that this

decision would allow Iran to have 60 percent more stockpiled uranium than it did prior to the

JCPOA. Ali Akbar Salehi, the head of the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran, was quoted by

the semi-official Fars News Agency stating that Iran would receive a final batch of 149 metric

tonnes of natural uranium, in addition to 210 metric tonnes already delivered since early 2016.

The 149 metric tonnes of uranium were received instead of a cash payment for part of its cache

of heavy water in Oman, heavy water that should have instead been blended down into normal

water, if the deal had been seriously enforced. Interestingly, the caching of heavy water in Oman

and the decision to approve sending natural uranium to Iran were considered secret by the Joint

Commission and the Obama administration. These 149 metric tonnes, if enriched to weapon-

grade uranium, would be enough for over 15 nuclear weapons.

This was not in breach of JCPOA.

Export Controls

According to the JCPOA, “Iran intends to apply nuclear export policies and practices in line with

the internationally established standards for the export of nuclear material, equipment and

technology (emphasis added).”12 Iran has not committed to do so, and Tehran could interpret

this condition far differently than the United States

Yes, they could have interpreted it differently and if they had done it, it could have been addressed.



Other parties to JCPOA saw the US withdrawal from JCPOA as bad thing and hoped for continuing negotiations.


Remember the actual enrichment of uranium didn't start until after the US withdrawal. Politic is like law discussions, full of trying to find loopholes but if you step away from the arena you're no longer a player in the game. Pulling out of JCPOA lead to what should we call it, kinetic negotiations instead.

I actually believe that David Albright has seen some important points that should have been put on the table for the next rounds of negotiation because JCPOA was probably not perfect (no diplomatic deal ever is).
 
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Meowzltov

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What do you mean?
Are you unaware that Iran has been using threat of violence to forcefully board ships and force them into Iranian waters? Are you unaware that Iran directly provided things like drones and anti-ship cruise missiles to their proxies, resulting in violent attacks? These were events directly carried out by Iranian military command to disrupt global oil trade. In January 2024, Iran launched a DEADLY strike against U.S. military personnel at Tower 22 located in Jordan. Do you understand that this act ALL BY ITSELF is considered an ACT OF WAR? Do you remember how in 2023, an Iranian suicide drone hit a U.S. military maintenance facility in Syria? Do you understand that this act all by itself is considered an ACT OF WAR?

I think you have been asleep at the wheel.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Are you unaware that Iran has been using threat of violence to forcefully board ships and force them into Iranian waters?

I know about the portuguese ship that they seized, did they seize any american vessels? How is this a war between the US and Iran? Iran is a bad entity in geopolitical terms, as is Russia but no one is arguing that there is an ongoing war between the US and Russia. Until february 2026, 120+ vessels crossed the Hormuz strait per day.

Are you unaware that Iran directly provided things like drones and anti-ship cruise missiles to their proxies, resulting in violent attacks? These were events directly carried out by Iranian military command to disrupt global oil trade.

I guess you are talking about the Houthis? I know about those. It is not unproblematic but it was not a war between the US and Iran.

In January 2024, Iran launched a DEADLY strike against U.S. military personnel at Tower 22 located in Jordan.

Not Iran, but a iran-backed militia in Iraq.

Do you understand that this act ALL BY ITSELF is considered an ACT OF WAR? Do you remember how in 2023, an Iranian suicide drone hit a U.S. military maintenance facility in Syria?

This was done by a IRGC-backed syrian group.

Do you understand that this act all by itself is considered an ACT OF WAR?

Yes it was, wasn't it part of the syrian civil war.

So when was the war between 1990 until 2020 between the US and Iran?

In research about conflicts they normally use a criterion of 1000 battle-related deaths in a given calendar year, and it have to be between two or more specific parties.

A single act of war does not constitute a war, in that case the US are right now at war with Cuba (iirc about fuel blockades).

I think you have been asleep at the wheel.

Why are you adding personal comments?
 
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Meowzltov

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Not Iran, but a iran-backed militia in Iraq.
This kind of thinking is what will get people killed. You need to understand that it is Iran's war strategy to use proxies. You need to begin thinking "Iran" when you see any of those proxies at work.
A single act of war does not constitute a war
A single act of war does justify a war reponse. When Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, you don't turn around and say the US started the war with Japan.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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This kind of thinking is what will get people killed. You need to understand that it is Iran's war strategy to use proxies. You need to begin thinking "Iran" when you see any of those proxies at work.

As was the strategy of both the Soviets and the US during the cold war. You still wouldn't say that they were in a state of actual war. I'm not complaining about CIA or NSA conducting operations against Iran, that is par for the course.

A single act of war does justify a war reponse. When Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, you don't turn around and say the US started the war with Japan.

The US officially went to war with Japan december 8 1941, with an actual declaration of war. Yes, it was justified. It would qualify as a war just based on battle-related deaths on december 7, even without an declaration of war.

So what was the reason of the war response from the US in february 28 2026, what was the analogue to the Pearl Harbor attack? What was it in retaliation of? What did Iran do in the direct days before the attack? I've heard it described as an act of preemptive self-defense, which sounds suspiciously close to opportunistic attack.
 
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Meowzltov

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Hans Blaster

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You are mistaken. It was called the cold war because it was a war.

Scroll back.
Does that make the "Drug War" an actual war then? What about the "War on Poverty"?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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You are mistaken. It was called the cold war because it was a war.

Scroll back.
So what was the analogue to the attack on Pearl Harbor? I'm interested in what action against the US by Iran you think is comparable to Japan's surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.
 
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Hans Blaster

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This kind of thinking is what will get people killed. You need to understand that it is Iran's war strategy to use proxies. You need to begin thinking "Iran" when you see any of those proxies at work.

A single act of war does justify a war reponse. When Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, you don't turn around and say the US started the war with Japan.
Oh, boy, really?

You think some terrorist bombing by an Iranian proxy group to which the US responds by blowing up some training camp and then both sides make noisy diplomatic statements at each other is some how equivalent to a major attack like Pearl Harbor?

Perhaps you don't remember the scope of the Pearl Harbor attack.

A full carrier group with 6 carriers launch 2 waves totaling 350 planes attacked the principle US naval base in the Pacific with the intent of knocking out a major portion of the whole US Pacific Fleet. Not only did Japan break off diplomatic relations and declare war, but it was part of a move across the entire region. On the same day Japan attacked US possessions in the Pacific (Guam, The Philippines, etc.) and UK possessions in the region (Hong Kong, Malaya) and Thailand. A week later they attacked their primary target of the campaign -- the Dutch East Indies.

If there is anything in the US-Iran History that is like Pearl Harbor, it is the US/Israel attack on Iran on 28 February 2026. (And both started wars.)
 
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Meowzltov

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So what was the analogue to the attack on Pearl Harbor? I'm interested in what action against the US by Iran you think is comparable to Japan's surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.
Scroll back. I don't repeat myself. You can keep asking again until the cows come home, but if I've already answered a question, I don't repost.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Scroll back. I don't repeat myself. You can keep asking again until the cows come home, but if I've already answered a question, I don't repost.

No you didn't say what action of Iran towards the US is comparable to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Give the post number then, at least.

Are you unaware that Iran has been using threat of violence to forcefully board ships and force them into Iranian waters? Are you unaware that Iran directly provided things like drones and anti-ship cruise missiles to their proxies, resulting in violent attacks? These were events directly carried out by Iranian military command to disrupt global oil trade. In January 2024, Iran launched a DEADLY strike against U.S. military personnel at Tower 22 located in Jordan. Do you understand that this act ALL BY ITSELF is considered an ACT OF WAR? Do you remember how in 2023, an Iranian suicide drone hit a U.S. military maintenance facility in Syria? Do you understand that this act all by itself is considered an ACT OF WAR?

I think you have been asleep at the wheel.

ETA: This is the closest I could get. Is it the strike against Tower 22 or the strike on the maintenance facility in Syria you were thinking of?

The US did already strike Syria in retaliation of the strike on the maintenance facility (US bombs Syria targets after deadly drone attack)

It seems that retaliatory strikes were performed for the Tower 22 attack as well (https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/...s-02-02-24#h_123c0971104310219a6e060faf3aa8af you will have to scroll a bit to find the quote)

"The US Central Command said it launched attacks on 85 targets in Iraq and Syria in response to a drone strike by Iran-backed militants on a US military outpost in Jordan on Sunday that killed three US service members."
 
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Meowzltov

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Give the post number then, at least.
That would require considerable work on my part. I'm not willing to do that for people so careless and indifferent that they don't bother to read what I write. Sorry, I just have no sympathy. None.
 
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Hans Blaster

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That would require considerable work on my part. I'm not willing to do that for people so careless and indifferent that they don't bother to read what I write. Sorry, I just have no sympathy. None.
If it is so far back that you would have to work to find a post number, then it is too far back for us to remember reading it.
 
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Meowzltov

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If it is so far back that you would have to work to find a post number, then it is too far back for us to remember reading it.
Oh well. I hope that next time the two of you will pay better attention when I post things. I look forward to many future conversations.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh well. I hope that next time the two of you will pay better attention when I post things. I look forward to many future conversations.
I'm more interested in how you keep ignoring the reality of your "Pearl Harbor" claim.
 
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Happy to oblige. I think I have collected the posts where you quoted me, I apologise if I missed anyone. They can all be found from post 101 and later.


Okay, I'm coming in way late in the argument, so I may get things wrong. If I've misunderstood you, please deal with me patiently. :)

Are you talking about the war with Iran? The US did not start the war. Iran started the war way back in 1979 when it supported the students who took the American hostages and held them for 444 days.

Remember that Iran used too be a very strong ALLY of both the US and Israel, and it WAS a muslim nation at that time. So this has nothing to do Palestinians. This has to do with with nutty muslim EXTREMISTS taking over Iran and turning it into a theocracy. Normal Islam is easy to work with. But jihadists are fruitcakes. You can't reason with people like that. They are religious imperialists who want to take over the entire world and set up Sharia law. They don't give a rat's about Palestinians. It's all about the caliphate. And the US and Israel are the greatest obstacles to that.

I've read this five times, and still don't understand you.

That's good to know.

Yeah, I can't justify pulling Feb 2026 out of context like that.

In WW2, about 2-3% of the German civilian population died as a result of the war. In Gaza, about 2-3% of the Gazan population (and remember that this figure INCLUDES Hamas terrorists, not just civilians) died as a result of the recent war. Approximately 0.0039% to 0.0067% of the Iranian population has died as a result of the military conflict with the United States and Israel since Feb 2026.

Was it wrong to fight against the Axis powers in WW2 based on that percent of civilian casualties, which was higher than both the war in Gaza and the recent offensive in Iran?

Maybe if you say this 100x it will magically come true. I'm sorry but this is just self-deceit. If you look at just the one previous year, Iran committed numrous acts of war. You are seeing what you want to see.

Are you unaware that Iran has been using threat of violence to forcefully board ships and force them into Iranian waters? Are you unaware that Iran directly provided things like drones and anti-ship cruise missiles to their proxies, resulting in violent attacks? These were events directly carried out by Iranian military command to disrupt global oil trade. In January 2024, Iran launched a DEADLY strike against U.S. military personnel at Tower 22 located in Jordan. Do you understand that this act ALL BY ITSELF is considered an ACT OF WAR? Do you remember how in 2023, an Iranian suicide drone hit a U.S. military maintenance facility in Syria? Do you understand that this act all by itself is considered an ACT OF WAR?

I think you have been asleep at the wheel.

The above post is the only one where you actually give details on any attacks against the US. If it is not that post which is it?

This kind of thinking is what will get people killed. You need to understand that it is Iran's war strategy to use proxies. You need to begin thinking "Iran" when you see any of those proxies at work.

A single act of war does justify a war reponse. When Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, you don't turn around and say the US started the war with Japan.
You are mistaken. It was called the cold war because it was a war.

Scroll back.
Scroll back. I don't repeat myself. You can keep asking again until the cows come home, but if I've already answered a question, I don't repost.
That would require considerable work on my part. I'm not willing to do that for people so careless and indifferent that they don't bother to read what I write. Sorry, I just have no sympathy. None.
 
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