The utter failure of Christian influence.

Maine Progressive · Sunday at 7:46 AM

timothyu said:
So much for the second commandment

Thanks for that. I'm embarrassed that it took me a second to get it. Well said.

Rescued One · Sunday at 1:07 PM

Christ remains on His throne. He inspires Christians. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is God Who converts sinnners and helps them grow. People who find fault don't inspire believers.

Maine Progressive · Sunday at 1:48 PM

Rescued One said:
Christ remains on His throne. He inspires Christians. Wr are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is God Who converts sinnners and helps them grow. People who find fault don't inspire believers.

Wow. You are soo right! I am a believer. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is God Who converts sinners and helps them grow. It is God who is compassionate and loves the world so much that He gave His only Son. He certainly didn’t do that so that His converts could sit in their comfortable little pews and proceed to find fault with everything outside their walls. So I definitely am not inspired by all their ‘holy’ fault finding of everything they fear and loathe that excuses them from caring.

Rescued One · Sunday at 7:28 PM

Nice try, Maine Progressive. We spend more hours outside of pews than in them.

Maine Progressive · Monday at 6:34 AM

Rescued One said:
Nice try, Maine Progressive. We spend more hours outside of pews than in them.

I'm deleting my previous response to this. My disgust with the incompetence and inadequacy and prejudice woven into modern Christian charity is what it is. I am disappointed with their actions in general. They could do better. They should do better. But your faith is your faith. You do what you do. It's not my place to judge any given Christian. Sorry. I'm glad for whatever charity you're able to arrive at. I just hope it actually raises people up out of their actual dilemmas instead of some palliative. (James 2:1)

stevevw · Tuesday at 7:41 AM

Maine Progressive said:
Again, very well stated. I hope you are aware that I do respect your faith though I strongly disagree with where it's lead you.

But if we are talking about secularism and Christianity how can you strongly disagree if we are both Christians. I think we should have more agreement than with secular and worldly ideology. Two Christians should be unified to where morality leads than a Christian and secularist.

Maine Progressive said:
You speak of Satan, "For we are not contending against flesh and blood" Eph 6:12. It seems clear to me that those very "spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" are the ones which have dragged others like you into the darkness where cruelty is a necessity in order to follow God's laws.

Is God unkind and wicked that He judge and punish sinners. That the wages of sin is death. Or that we suffer when we break Gods laws. Or when Christ reviles the pharisees as white washed tombs and serpents.

Or that anyone who leads a child astray should tie a mill stone around them and throw themnselves into the ocean. Or physically lose a limb and suffer in pain so they can enter Gods kingdom.

According to secular ideology denying the freedom of sex or abortions is mean and cruel. Is this not a subjective determination according to secularism. Because there is no objective basis for morality.

Maine Progressive said:
Where any act of kindness that doesn't fit the Biblical definitions of godly behavior is therefore false and evil.

Yes thats the point. Gods law and Christ teachings are the truth. Sinners will be judged and punished and will end up spiritually dead with satan. Sometimesthe truth hurts but I would rather tell the truth and save a soul than appease them by accommodating sin where they lose their soul.

The idea of a God that judges and punishes has been minimised in the modern church because its not accommodating the feel good factor. But the truth is sinners will be eternally damned. Paul mentions this.

In fact Paul says that anyone who does not follow the teachings is like false teacher and damned. He states that sinners (the sins he mentions) are to be rebuked (gently). But if they do not repent they are to be put out of the church. We rarely hear of anyone nowadays being put out of churches. As though they never do wrong.

Maine Progressive said:
Where sexual sin is top of mind and all the greater harms are minimized.

All the sins Paul mentions are equally wrong. Sexual immorality just happens to be a central one because we are sexual beings.

Ultimately Christians are asked to deny their own sexual identitiy and align with Christs. Paul says it is better a couple marry than have sex outside marriage. That denying sex is a greater good for God.

But the same can be said for all the deadly sins like gluttony, envy, sloath, greed and pride. We practically have to deny our human instincts and desires. We crucify the flesh and deny ourselves and it is Christ that lives in us and not ourselves.

I know this idea is hated by the world. But if we put our own identities and desires above Christ then we are denying Christ. The world promotes self fullfillment and satisfaction over Christ when they promote individual rights and self over all else.

Maine Progressive said:
Where empathy and compassion are relegated to foolish emotion to be set aside for Godly actions and Godly standards. I tell you, in that fashion, the devil has succeeded far beyond anything you imagine.

Is this not a subjective determination. Empathy is subjective. What one person empathises with depends on who it is and what the issue is. Humans tend to empathise with those they know within their group rather than outsiders.

What is compassion. How do we determine it. Some may hide the truth thinking it is being compassionate because the truth may hurt. The church hestitates to tell the truth of the reality that sinners will be judged and punished if they don't repent. Because its not kind according to the world.

Ultimately standing with Christ is beyond empathy because its sacrificial. Its putting ourselves below others and not just equal. Its not just empathising with others we agree with. But our enermies. The world hates this idea and thinks its foolish.

I do agree though that the greatest wrong is the hypocracy of some churches who do wrong as they should know better. I can understand your frustration and Christ was particular in condemning the Pharisees. While Paul was big on pointing out Christians who promoted false teachings.

The hypocracy of the church is one of the big factors that turns people off. If the church exampled Christ then it would shine as a good example for people who would see God. Nothing worse than someone who proclaims the moral high ground and does the opposite. Christ warned about the wolves even fooling the elect. They should know better and will be more severely judged.

Maine Progressive · Tuesday at 10:06 AM

stevevw said:
But if we are talking about secularism and Christianity how can you strongly disagree if we are both Christians. I think we should have more agreement than with secular and worldly ideology. Two Christians should be unified to where morality leads than a Christian and secularist.

Is God unkind and wicked that He judge and punish sinners. That the wages of sin is death. Or that we suffer when we break Gods laws. Or when Christ reviles the pharisees as white washed tombs and serpents.

Or that anyone who leads a child astray should tie a mill stone around them and throw themnselves into the ocean. Or physically lose a limb and suffer in pain so they can enter Gods kingdom.

According to secular ideology denying the freedom of sex or abortions is mean and cruel. Is this not a subjective determination according to secularism. Because there is no objective basis for morality.

Yes thats the point. Gods law and Christ teachings are the truth. Sinners will be judged and punished and will end up spiritually dead with satan. Sometimesthe truth hurts but I would rather tell the truth and save a soul than appease them by accommodating sin where they lose their soul.

The idea of a God that judges and punishes has been minimised in the modern church because its not accommodating the feel good factor. But the truth is sinners will be eternally damned. Paul mentions this.

In fact Paul says that anyone who does not follow the teachings is like false teacher and damned. He states that sinners (the sins he mentions) are to be rebuked (gently). But if they do not repent they are to be put out of the church. We rarely hear of anyone nowadays being put out of churches. As though they never do wrong.

All the sins Paul mentions are equally wrong. Sexual immorality just happens to be a central one because we are sexual beings.

Ultimately Christians are asked to deny their own sexual identitiy and align with Christs. Paul says it is better a couple marry than have sex outside marriage. That denying sex is a greater good for God.

But the same can be said for all the deadly sins like gluttony, envy, sloath, greed and pride. We practically have to deny our human instincts and desires. We crucify the flesh and deny ourselves and it is Christ that lives in us and not ourselves.

I know this idea is hated by the world. But if we put our own identities and desires above Christ then we are denying Christ. The world promotes self fullfillment and satisfaction over Christ when they promote individual rights and self over all else.

Is this not a subjective determination. Empathy is subjective. What one person empathises with depends on who it is and what the issue is. Humans tend to empathise with those they know within their group rather than outsiders.

What is compassion. How do we determine it. Some may hide the truth thinking it is being compassionate because the truth may hurt. The church hestitates to tell the truth of the reality that sinners will be judged and punished if they don't repent. Because its not kind according to the world.

Ultimately standing with Christ is beyond empathy because its sacrificial. Its putting ourselves below others and not just equal. Its not just empathising with others we agree with. But our enermies. The world hates this idea and thinks its foolish.

I do agree though that the greatest wrong is the hypocracy of some churches who do wrong as they should know better. I can understand your frustration and Christ was particular in condemning the Pharisees. While Paul was big on pointing out Christians who promoted false teachings.

The hypocracy of the church is one of the big factors that turns people off. If the church exampled Christ then it would shine as a good example for people who would see God. Nothing worse than someone who proclaims the moral high ground and does the opposite. Christ warned about the wolves even fooling the elect. They should know better and will be more severely judged.

I hope someday we might arrive at a juncture where we could 'boil the ocean' together. I would enjoy that. I admire who you are. And I understand why you would regard me as caving to secularism. But, honestly, it is not secularism to work for the betterment of humanity by cooperation and compromise with unbelievers and secular governments. It is not secularism to criticize Christian charitable efforts which produce worse results than secular efforts. It is not secularism to turn to principle laid out by Christ “you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith;”. It is not secularism to point out the distraction that ’sex’ issues provide for neglecting the greater harms and injustices in our country. If ‘empathy for our enemies’ teaches us anything, it is the importance of moving outside our borders for the sake of the downtrodden. Likely this will not convince you to join me. But perhaps you will understand why I hold my faith to be sincerely and genuinely Christian. And I do look forward to meeting my Savior on Judgement Day.

timothyu · Tuesday at 10:23 AM

The second commandment is second for a reason

Maine Progressive · Tuesday at 10:27 AM

I have a question along this line of rising above the world and being ready for Judgement Day. In Matthew 25:40 Christ the King. speaks from the throne about that very subject…Judgement Day; and says “as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren,”. What do you think of the word “brethren”? Christ the King’s brothers? Who are the Brothers of Christ whose treatment we will be judged for? Would these all be Christians? Can only Christians be Brothers of Christ? Who are these ‘Brothers of Christ’ for whose treatment we will be judged? And what kind of treatment is Christ the King referring to. “I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' “ Seriously, is that it? What about straightening up their sexual behavior? What about challenging their laziness leading to poverty? What about addressing the criminality that brought them to prison? What about these ‘strangers’ non-citizen presence inside our border? Surely He can’t mean those things, can He?

Rescued One · Tuesday at 7:57 PM

Not everyone is capable of judging who is a brother of Christ or who is or is not a Christian.

Maine Progressive · Tuesday at 8:14 PM

Rescued One said:
Not everyone is capable of judging who is a brother of Christ or who is or is not a Christian.

But everyone is going to be judged by their ability to recognize a brother of Christ and respond as Christ the King expects on the day of Judgement and He says “I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' So, I'm just wondering are we capable? What happens if we fail to judge who is a brother of Christ? Are we sure it's only Christians? Or are we obliged towards all who are downtrodden? In which case, it will be easy to tell who is a brother of Christ.

bèlla · Wednesday at 1:08 PM

Maine Progressive said:
Yes, I have. Call it a hodgepodge if you like. I call it unblinkered. The eagerness to blame the victims is so maddening. So I don't take offense at your dismissal. And I worry that at times I'm too shrill. But I make no apology for caring for the person more than the terms...no matter how much the cruelty is hidden behind the Bible.

We're all responsible for our choices. Adopting modern perspectives on the subject doesn't minimize personal responsibility. I'm not dismissing you. Caring for someone doesn't equal coddling and that's what you're doing. Disagreeing with God doesn't make you relatable or win any points above. It's just another dirt suit gone astray.

~bella

Rescued One · Wednesday at 6:30 PM

Maine Progressive said:
But everyone is going to be judged by their ability to recognize a brother of Christ and respond as Christ the King expects on the day of Judgement and He says “I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' So, I'm just wondering are we capable? What happens if we fail to judge who is a brother of Christ? Are we sure it's only Christians? Or are we obliged towards all who are downtrodden? In which case, it will be easy to tell who is a brother of Christ.

I read my Bible and obey Christ Who will judge me. You are not my Savior or Judge.

Maine Progressive · Wednesday at 6:41 PM

Rescued One said:
I read my Bible and obey Christ Who will judge me. You are not my Savior or Judge.

In that sense of 'judge', you are absolutely right. That is the meaning of 'judge' in relation to Judgement Day when we all appear before Christ the King and are 'judged' on the a basis of how we treated the downtrodden. But the meaning of 'judge' as in 'I reckon' or 'I recognize'. etc. is not the same. It's an act of realizing. To become aware that someone suffering is one of Christ the King's brothers. To become aware that you have a responsibility. See the difference?

Maine Progressive · Wednesday at 6:54 PM

bèlla said:
We're all responsible for our choices. Adopting modern perspectives on the subject doesn't minimize personal responsibility. I'm not dismissing you. Caring for someone doesn't equal coddling and that's what you're doing. Disagreeing with God doesn't make you relatable or win any points above. It's just another dirt suit gone astray.

~bella

I fully agree that every healthy adult who chooses to be part of a given society has personal responsibility for their actions. But there is an overarching requirement of healthy adults in order to be members of a given society…and that is to take communal responsibility for the needs of the society. One cannot say, it’s no consequence to me if I don’t contribute. And that applies to the issue of underage pregnancies. And speaking of personal responsibility where is mention of the male?? There’s a zillion shaming words for the girl child who becomes pregnant. You can’t possibly not know what they are. So I won’t list them. But tell me one single shaming word for the male. Tell me one single instance where the male was called out and endured anything similar to what the girl is going to go through. Then tell me she deserves it.

bèlla · Wednesday at 7:19 PM

Maine Progressive said:
I fully agree that every healthy adult who chooses to be part of a given society has personal responsibility for their actions. But there is an overarching requirement of healthy adults in order to be members of a given society…and that is to take communal responsibility for the needs of the society. One cannot say, it’s no consequence to me if I don’t contribute. And that applies to the issue of underage pregnancies.

What world do you live in where minors have no accountability? The fact that you continue to debate this point given the seriousness of what it involves leads me to question your maturity and then some.

Maine Progressive said:
And speaking of personal responsibility where is mention of the male?? There’s a zillion shaming words for the girl child who becomes pregnant. You can’t possibly not know what they are. So I won’t list them. But tell me one single shaming word for the male. Tell me one single instance where the male was called out and endured anything similar to what the girl is going to go through. Then tell me she deserves it.

Why do you assume I'm clueless? I was a single mother and there's a reason why she's an only child not one of many. And what makes you think you're more knowledgeable about a woman's experience? Your profile says you're male. You're welcome to believe what you wish. I've heard enough.

~bella

Rescued One · Wednesday at 7:58 PM

Maine Progressive,

You might try spreading some sunshine instead of dwelling on another's shortcomings.

Maine Progressive · Wednesday at 9:22 PM

bèlla said:
What world do you live in where minors have no accountability? The fact that you continue to debate this point given the seriousness of what it involves leads me to question your maturity and then some.

Why do you assume I'm clueless? I was a single mother and there's a reason why she's an only child not one of many. And what makes you think you're more knowledgeable about a woman's experience? Your profile says you're male. You're welcome to believe what you wish. I've heard enough.

~bella

Fair enough. I'll stop. Thank you for your words. I wish you well.

Maine Progressive · Wednesday at 9:33 PM

Rescued One said:
Maine Progressive,

You might try spreading some sunshine instead of dwelling on another's shortcomings.

Fair enough. My solar effort then: I believe you are a sincere born-again Christian who is an inspiration to many in your community and I think your faith is strong and healthy enough to grow and broaden. I look forward to the person you are becoming as you continue to walk with God. I will not respond further as clearly it is irritating and that was never my intent. Blessings.

bèlla · Wednesday at 11:21 PM

Maine Progressive said:
Fair enough. I'll stop. Thank you for your words. I wish you well.

Instead of lecturing people on christian failings you need to get grounded in the word. Your arguments are humanistic and display a noticeable bias towards the human experience above God's precepts. The bible tells us to trust in the Lord and not to lean on our own understanding. Your human intellect is no match for the Father's and you don't seem to grasp that nor your position in relation to something greater than yourself. You're not His equal.

~bella

The utter failure of Christian influence.

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

inquisitive

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

Well-Known Member

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

❤️

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

❤️

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

The war bow. God uses metaphors.

❤️

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