Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

boughtwithaprice said:

It is finished meant the Old Covenant. We are now in the New. When we are born again, we deny ourselves and cease from mortal sin. Then we regularly consume the body and blood of Our Lord to purify us from venial sin and decrease our desire for sin.

If we say that all of our sins are forgiven and then fail to take heed of ourselves as we walk this earth, it gives us an air of complacency and presumption. Jesus death is sufficient to forgive all sin, but it requires repentance, participation and asking for the gift to receive it
If we truly wish to serve God, we would want to be purified, not make excuses for our sin which puts us in a state of I believe but don’t want to repent because it’s too hard. Of course it is hard, that is why we ask God for help, not just once but continually. It is said a righteous man falls seven times per day, but he still has the humility to ask God to help him up again. He does not lay there like a sloth and say, oh well I can’t help sinning so I will stay down here in the mire, I believe you will save me anyway so why should I waste time repenting?
That attitude will not get him into heaven. Of it’s done out of ignorance, he may get purgatory, but it is up to God where he goes. He is not owed salvation

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Exactly. The old covenant has been fulfilled and the new covenant, the covenant based on grace, takes its place. We no longer have to work for our salvation. The old convenant proved that working for our salvation doesn’t work because our works were as filthy rags. Only the shed blood of Christ can clean us. That is what was finished on the cross.

A New Dawn said:

I agree that we works need to accompany faith, otherwise we’d have rampant antinomianism and no lasting faith. I do believe, however, that all of our sins have been nailed to the cross and we bear them no more, and that is what Christ meant when He said “It is finished.” And with the prompting of the Holy Spirit, we eventually become conformed to the image of Christ.

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You believe that all our past and future sins were nailed to the cross and thereby finished and forgiven; why then does John teach that Christians must confess their present sins to have them forgiven?

Why would we need to be purified from all our unrighteousness if it's impossible for us Christians to become unrighteous after our initial conversion to Christ?


1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Jan001 said:

You believe that all our past and future sins were nailed to the cross and thereby finished and forgiven; why then does John teach that Christians must confess their present sins to have them forgiven?

Why would we need to be purified from all our unrighteousness if it's impossible for us Christians to become unrighteous after our initial conversion to Christ?


1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

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Because one cannot be conformed to the image of Christ (become sanctified) if they are unwilling to, become sanctified. God didn’t save us out of our sins to be stagnant and continue to do what He abhors, that is why He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. To guide us into all righteousness.

A New Dawn said:

Exactly. The old covenant has been fulfilled and the new covenant, the covenant based on grace, takes its place. We no longer have to work for our salvation. The old convenant proved that working for our salvation doesn’t work because our works were as filthy rags. Only the shed blood of Christ can clean us. That is what was finished on the cross.

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That is a complete distortion of Christianity. If the work was finished and we don’t have to do good works, what are we to do? Evil?
That makes no sense

Woe to those that call the evil good and the good evil

Sloth is a deadly sin. If we tell people that good works are of no value, are we not encouraging sloth? That does not sound like the Gospel

What does one do to be a Christian? Believe in Jesus and then what? Nothing? Scripture characterizes that as demonic faith
James 2:19

A New Dawn said:

Because one cannot be conformed to the image of Christ (become sanctified) if they are unwilling to, become sanctified. God didn’t save us out of our sins to be stagnant and continue to do what He abhors, that is why He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. To guide us into all righteousness.

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How do we become sanctified if we will not do works? Do you consider it righteous to do nothing?

boughtwithaprice said:

How do we become sanctified if we will not do works? Do you consider it righteous to do nothing?

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Doing works that we are created unto in Jesus Christ are different than works that we create for our own gain. The difference is the intention behind them. We of course do works, I have repeatedly said that, but we don’t do works that earn us salvation 1. because we literally can’t earn salvation (again, that was the purpose of the law - to show us that we cannot earn salvation), and 2. because salvation is a gift, and the works we do AFTER we are saved are works given to us by God that we do because we love Him and desire to do His will.

BWAP, I know you came into this thread late, but out of the kindness I knew you for years ago, I ask that you read my posts carefully and, even though we have differences in theological beliefs, I ask that you not accuse me of something I never said. Just about ALL my posts in this thread have acknowledged that we need to do works, what I have said is that they are not salvific. We do them because we are created in Christ unto them, and because they are what sanctify us, and we do them to honor God.

Jeff Carr said:

Your post is a bit confusing! I didn't come into this thread late, I started it!

Where have I accused you of something you never said?

I agree 'works are NOT salvific.

I do not believe works sanctify us, rather faith. On that we will have to agree to disagree.

The writer said to pursue peace with all men. That I strive to do by the grace of God.

Blessings.

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I was not speaking to you, I was speaking to boughtwithaprice.

A New Dawn said:

Doing works that we are created unto in Jesus Christ are different than works that we create for our own gain. The difference is the intention behind them. We of course do works, I have repeatedly said that, but we don’t do works that earn us salvation 1. because we literally can’t earn salvation (again, that was the purpose of the law - to show us that we cannot earn salvation), and 2. because salvation is a gift, and the works we do AFTER we are saved are works given to us by God that we do because we love Him and desire to do His will.

BWAP, I know you came into this thread late, but out of the kindness I knew you for years ago, I ask that you read my posts carefully and, even though we have differences in theological beliefs, I ask that you not accuse me of something I never said. Just about ALL my posts in this thread have acknowledged that we need to do works, what I have said is that they are not salvific. We do them because we are created in Christ unto them, and because they are what sanctify us, and we do them to honor God.

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Then how do we tell the difference?
I could ask the same courtesy toward the Catholic Church whom has been falsely accused of works salvation, when our doctrine is of grace

We must follow the commands of Christ and not merely say we believe, rather show we believe.
Works are how we show our faith, but I agree that we have to define works. The works that lead to life are those done before God, not to get the praise of men.
We are to fast, yet we fast in secret. We are to pray, yet we pray in secret. We are to give alms, yet not make a show of it.
We are to cease from dead works, aka sin. When we are born again, we are cleansed from original sin, and given the power to cease from mortal sin (Rev22:15, 1Cor6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5, 1 Tim 1:9.
Hebrews 12:14 tells us that we are to strive for holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
What is striving if not works? Christianity is a practical faith, meaning we put it into practice.

Having been in Protestant congregations for over 18 years, I have seen too many times that people treat Our Lord like a joke, as if He is merely her prom date that is supposed be a dance partner
They speak lovely words about Jesus, but with others they sow strife division and ridicule. They say they are not saved by works, I have faith, I have a pretty face, I can lead people to Jesus. It was as scripture says, they want their ears tickled and told how great they are. I don’t need to do anymore for holiness, I have faith. They act as the Church in Revelation 3, I am rich, well fed, and have need of nothing, even though God says they are miserable, blind, poor, and naked, so He will vomit them out of His mouth. And if any one questions them, they cry they are being judged and the conversation goes nowhere
God charges us to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, which would be self humiliating good works
Those are done for God’s glory, not our own
If we don’t do them, there is no grounds for claiming that we have faith

Jeff Carr said:

The experience of entire sanctification (1 Thes 5:23) is entered by faith, not passivity, self-effort or works but faith. (Acts 15:8-9. 26:18.) The result being a freedom from sin and holiness of life.

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You incorrect sir. We are saved by grace, through faith. We are not saved BY faith. Faith is a gift, you are making it a work. Eph 2:8-9
When we believe God, we DO what He says. When we love Christ, we keep His commandments. We cannot sin, because His seed abides in us 1 John 3:9
We do not boast that this power comes from ourselves, but from the gift of His body and blood He gave to us. We cannot receive the Eucharist in mortal sin else we suffer condemnation, but when received in a state of grace, His body and blood cleanses us from venial sin and decreases our desire for sin. Do I boast of myself, or do I boast in God?

If you don’t believe, and think it is all symbolic, then I don’t know what to tell you. You don’t know what you are missing and the grace you are denying yourself

boughtwithaprice said:

Then how do we tell the difference?
I could ask the same courtesy toward the Catholic Church whom has been falsely accused of works salvation, when our doctrine is of grace

We must follow the commands of Christ and not merely say we believe, rather show we believe.
Works are how we show our faith, but I agree that we have to define works. The works that lead to life are those done before God, not to get the praise of men.
We are to fast, yet we fast in secret. We are to pray, yet we pray in secret. We are to give alms, yet not make a show of it.
We are to cease from dead works, aka sin. When we are born again, we are cleansed from original sin, and given the power to cease from mortal sin (Rev22:15, 1Cor6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5, 1 Tim 1:9.
Hebrews 12:14 tells us that we are to strive for holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
What is striving if not works? Christianity is a practical faith, meaning we put it into practice.

Having been in Protestant congregations for over 18 years, I have seen too many times that people treat Our Lord like a joke, as if He is merely her prom date that is supposed be a dance partner
They speak lovely words about Jesus, but with others they sow strife division and ridicule. They say they are not saved by works, I have faith, I have a pretty face, I can lead people to Jesus. It was as scripture says, they want their ears tickled and told how great they are. I don’t need to do anymore for holiness, I have faith. They act as the Church in Revelation 3, I am rich, well fed, and have need of nothing, even though God says they are miserable, blind, poor, and naked, so He will vomit them out of His mouth. And if any one questions them, they cry they are being judged and the conversation goes nowhere
God charges us to buy of Him gold tried in the fire, which would be self humiliating good works
Those are done for God’s glory, not our own
If we don’t do them, there is no grounds for claiming that we have faith

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And I have seen Catholics that go to church because they have to in order to go to heaven and come home and go out drinking and swear like a sailor. And by saying I’ve seen this happen does not mean that that is what I believe all Catholics do, nor does it mean that that is what I believe the theology in the Catholic Church leads them to do. In ALL churches we will see those who are sincere and those who will speak with their lips but are far from God in their hearts. It is not fair to judge a religion by its lowest observance.

The difference between what you believe and what I believe, I believe, comes down to when we believe salvation occurs. I believe salvation occurs when our hearts have been regenerated, when God pours His love into us, when we have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit so we can begin the process of sanctification (which occurs with us obeying the guidance of the Holy Spirit to become conformed to the image of Christ (our works.))

Our faith is displayed by our works, but they have no bearing on our salvation (which occurs at regeneration.) I differentiate the phases of salvation to be
Regeneration - the past tense (so to speak) of salvation when we have been legally declared no longer responsible for the sins we have committed because Christ’s sacrifice covers them. It is a work of God. We have been saved from the penalty of sin.
Sanctification - the present tense of salvation where we are being cleansed and becoming conformed to the image of Christ by actively participating with the Holy Spirit (our works) and trying to put off sin. This is the only part of salvation that we participate in. We are being saved from the power of sin.
Glorification - the future of salvation, this is when we will come into the presence of God and be removed from the presence of sin.

A New Dawn said:

And I have seen Catholics that go to church because they have to in order to go to heaven and come home and go out drinking and swear like a sailor.

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I have seen Catholics go out and drink and swear like a sailor, and the next Sunday go to church. I have seen those brought up Catholic do the same and not go to church. Even a whole city can fall into evil, like Sodom, and can either stay in evil or repent, like Nineveh. We all have free will. Some Catholics reach out to God for help and some do not. Realize that every Catholic that goes to mass is a sinner who goes to Jesus for help.

Valletta said:

I have seen Catholics go out and drink and swear like a sailor, and the next Sunday go to church. I have seen those brought up Catholic do the same and not go to church. Even a whole city can fall into evil, like Sodom, and can either stay in evil or repent, like Nineveh. We all have free will. Some Catholics reach out to God for help and some do not. Realize that every Catholic that goes to mass is a sinner who goes to Jesus for help.

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What is the purpose of this response? I said as much in my complete post, if you didn’t get a chance to read it all. Just noticing that you edited out the part of the post that says all this.

A New Dawn said:

Because one cannot be conformed to the image of Christ (become sanctified) if they are unwilling to, become sanctified. God didn’t save us out of our sins to be stagnant and continue to do what He abhors, that is why He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. To guide us into all righteousness.

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What happens if the once-sanctified Christian later refuses to obey the Holy Spirit? Is he still being conformed to the image of Christ? 1 Corinthians 6:11

No, he loses his sanctification when he disobeys the Holy Spirit. Unless he repents of his disobedience, he will receive the wrath of God when he dies.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Jan001 said:

What happens if the once-sanctified Christian later refuses to obey the Holy Spirit? Is he still being conformed to the image of Christ? No.
Unless he repents of his disobedience, he will receive the wrath of God when he dies.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

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Several things.

First, those who have been truly born again from above, whose hearts have been turned by God to himself, whose wills have been changed to align with God’s will, and who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they will not turn from God. God preserves his own. Those who were never truly regenerated, whose hearts did not receive all those gifts, will eventually fall away because they were never God’s. The way to know the difference between the truly regenerated and the one who has only had an emotional response is enduring to the end. Nobody but God knows. This is the way it has always been.

Second, what is it the Son has called us to obey? We are called to believe on Him, to love Him and others, and to make disciples for Him. Nothing else. And sanctification is not a one-and-done deal like regeneration, it is a process that occurs over the entire course of our lives.

A New Dawn said:

What is the purpose of this response? I said as much in my complete post, if you didn’t get a chance to read it all. Just noticing that you edited out the part of the post that says all this.

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I was just responding to that particular section rather than the rest of your statement. My point had nothing to do with whether we should judge or not. It goes to the topic that some don't realize that they need to repent and some do. Both kinds of Catholics have been born again, they may appear to others to have the same behavior, however, some are trying to repent and struggle with the same sins for decades and continually seek out Jesus, while other don't even recognize evil.

Phil 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so no, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. RSVCE

Valletta said:

I was just responding to that particular section rather than the rest of your statement. My point had nothing to do with whether we should judge or not. It goes to the topic that some don't realize that they need to repent and some do. Both kinds of Catholics have been born again, they may appear to others to have the same behavior, however, some are trying to repent and struggle with the same sins for decades and continually seek out Jesus, while other don't even recognize evil.

Phil 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so no, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. RSVCE

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Born again requires your heart being changed by God. You can’t be born again and still of this world. Your nature is changed by God, and so what HE abhors, we, who are born again, should abhor. I know it is not possible to put off all that stands between us and God, but if we are not succeedful in the easiest of ways, especially with the Holy Spirit present to give us strength to do so, I’d say it’s likely they haven’t been born again.

And that verse says working OUT your salvation with fear and trembling, not working for your salvation. The first is what sanctification is all about, the second implies working for salvation.

Jan001 said:

What happens if the once-sanctified Christian later refuses to obey the Holy Spirit? Is he still being conformed to the image of Christ? 1 Corinthians 6:11

No, he loses his sanctification when he disobeys the Holy Spirit. Unless he repents of his disobedience, he will receive the wrath of God when he dies.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

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The born again Christian does not later refuse habitually to obey the Holy Spirit. He does not (indeed, he CANNOT) return to a life characterised by sin, because he has been born of God. He overcomes, also because he has been born of God, and has God working in him, to will and to do of his good pleasure. He who has begun a good work in us will (not merely wants to, but WILL) complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:9 (E.M.T.V.) No-one who has been born of God practises sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:3,4
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
4 because everything having been born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world—your faith.

Phil. 1:6 having been persuaded of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus;