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The Failure of Orthodoxy to take a Stand Against Male Genital Mutilation

Dogheaded

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As far as I'm concerned, mutilation isn't a strong enough word. I would prefer the term "sexual torture." What else do you call the process of ripping the foreskin off the glans, which has not yet naturally seperated - a process which causes greater pain than the ripping out of fingernails? And then cutting them. All, usually, without anesthesia - event though infants are more pain sensitive.

Yet, apparently, the Orthodox Church is fine with causing extreme and torturous pain to the genitals of infants, because... of absolute no reason. No reason required at all. They don't care. Just like the parents who commit the crime do not care about the well-being of the infant. The Orthodox Church should teach the moral law as it was given to them, not hedge it and hide it to make boomers feel good about perpetuating extreme violence.

The current penalty of 20 years to life in prison for my state for FGM must apply to male genital mutilation as well under the Equal Protection Clause. Until the ban applies equally between the sexes, the statute remains constitutionally invalid. I guess protecting daughters doesn't matter enough if it means having to protect sons too.

And I expect accountability for the sexual torture of minors. Unfortunately they will not receive the penalty after this plays out in court - being ex post facto.
 
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Lukaris

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'Mutilation' is the correct medical definition. Shall we say a clitorectomy is not mutilation?
Female circumcision is mutilation which was never called for by God. It isn’t even in the Koran.
 
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Lukaris

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As far as I'm concerned, mutilation isn't a strong enough word. I would prefer the term "sexual torture." What else do you call the process of ripping the foreskin off the glans, which has not yet naturally seperated - a process which causes greater pain than the ripping out of fingernails? And then cutting them. All, usually, without anesthesia - event though infants are more pain sensitive.

Yet, apparently, the Orthodox Church is fine with causing extreme and torturous pain to the genitals of infants, because... of absolute no reason. No reason required at all. They don't care. Just like the parents who commit the crime do not care about the well-being of the infant. The Orthodox Church should teach the moral law as it was given to them, not hedge it and hide it to make boomers feel good about perpetuating extreme violence.

The current penalty of 20 years to life in prison for my state for FGM must apply to male genital mutilation as well under the Equal Protection Clause. Until the ban applies equally between the sexes, the statute remains constitutionally invalid. I guess protecting daughters doesn't matter enough if it means having to protect sons too.

And I expect accountability for the sexual torture of minors. Unfortunately they will not receive the penalty after this plays out in court - being ex post facto.
Traditional dominant Orthodox nations like Greece, Russia, Romania, Ukraine etc. do not have circumcision of most male infants. I only did an AI search and I would think that only applies to Jews & maybe a few other minority faiths ( whoever they may be). So the Church doesn’t practice circumcision. Those of us speaking here who were ( I believe) are converts whose situation was independent from the church.
 
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RileyG

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Traditional dominant Orthodox nations like Greece, Russia, Romania, Ukraine etc. do not have circumcision of most male infants. I only did an AI search and I would think that only applies to Jews & maybe a few other minority faiths ( whoever they may be). So the Church doesn’t practice circumcision. Those of us speaking here who were ( I believe) are converts whose situation was independent from the church.
(Posting in fellowship)

Circumcision is rather uncommon in Europe. It is/was common in the United States because the Kellogg’s guy thought it would stop males from, doing….stuff.

Peace
 
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Dogheaded

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Female circumcision is mutilation which was never called for by God. It isn’t even in the Koran.
"Amputation means surgically removing a body part..." - Cleveland Clinic

"Circumcision involves the amputation of a body part." Christopher P Price, Male and Female Circumcision, Medical, Legal, and Ethical Considerations in Pediatric Practice., Pages 425-454. New York: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers; 1999.

"Disfigurement or injury by removal or destruction of any conspicuous or essential part of the body." Medical Dictionary - TheFreeDictionary.com

"Mutilation means the intentional, permanent destruction or removal of a body part." - Law Definer

William Keith C. Morgan, M.D., of the University of Maryland School of Medicine has written in the Journal of the American Medical Association that "98 times out of 100 there is no valid indication for this mutilation other than religion. . . . Why is the operation of circumcision practiced? One might as well attempt to explain the rites of voodoo!"

Peter Van Zante, M.D., has written in the medical Medical Tribune: "Circumcision of a helpless child is a crime." and "Circumcision is cruel and mutilating and actually should be outlawed." And in critiquing the idea that circumcision should be performed to prevent penile or cervical cancer; "Why not amputate all female breasts to avoid mammary cancer?"

J.M. Foley M.D. "It is nothing but wanton and unnecessary mutilation." and "The desire to mutilate came first; the "reasons" came later, and run the gamut from spiritual through cultural, esthetic, and finally medical." (1966)

G. S. Thompson, M.D. who had once circumcised himself, later concluded that circumcision was nothing more nor less than "a barbarous and unnecessary mutilation" (British Medical Journal, 1920).
 
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Dogheaded

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(Posting in fellowship)

Circumcision is rather uncommon in Europe. It is/was common in the United States because the Kellogg’s guy thought it would stop males from, doing….stuff.

Peace

Correct;

"The pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." - John Kellog, Plain Facts for Old and Young

"In all cases of masturbation circumcision is undoubtedly the physician's closest friend and ally...
To obtain the best results one must cut away enough skin and mucous membrane to rather put it on the stretch when erections come later. There must be no play in the skin after the wound has thoroughly healed, but it must fit tightly over the penis, for should there be any play the patient will be found to readily resume his practice, not begrudging the time and extra energy required to produce the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. It is true, however, that the longer it takes to have an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], the less frequently it will be attempted, consequently the greater the benefit gained...
The younger the patient operated upon the more pronounced the benefit, though occasionally we find patients who were circumcised before puberty that require a resection of the skin, as it has grown loose and pliant after that epoch." - E.J. Spratling (1895)

/////+++++/////

However, it wasn't just male circumcision. These people created an industry out of both male and female circumcision. John Kellogg advocated pouring carbonic acid on the genitals female children. And they made both male and female circumcision common in the United States.
Same claims of health benefits, same history, same propensity to cause extreme damage.

They claimed that circumcision was a panacea - capable of curing every single disease. This included every form of cancer and epilepsy.

However, some doctors went further, including castrating boys and severing their dorsal nerve.

And the whole point was the pain.
 
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Dogheaded

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"It is likely also that mutilating the genitals of others has a deep sexual motive. This motive combined with the urge to control people when, in the nineteenth century, doctors first introduced medicalized circumcision in the vain attempt to prevent masturbation... It would seem wholly plausible that inflicting circumcision on a boy provides some circumcisers and onlookers with a sexual thrill. Groups such as the Acorn Society, the Gilgal Society, and the Cutting Club openly admit to a morbid fascination with circumcision to the point of sado-masochistic fetish. These groups advertise that doctors are among their members. There are those on the Internet who discuss the erotic stimulation they experience by watching other males being circumcised, swap fiction and about it, and trade in videotapes of actual circumcisions. Furthermore, there are anecdotal accounts of doctors becoming sexually aroused when circumcising boys. Circumcision certainly provides an opportunity not only to handle boys' penises without the condemnation that a sexual assault (in the sense that phrase is normally used) would attract, but also the opportunity to exercise power over another human being, to alter the penis and to control it and the boy's future sexual life." - Christopher P. Price, Male and Female Circumcision, Medical, Legal, and Ethical Considerations in Pediatric Practice., Pages 425-454. New York: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers; 1999.

John M. Foley, M.D., in 1966, also wrote, "Circumcision provides a convenient and socially acceptable outlet for the perverted component of the circumciser's libido."... and, " And I say that one of the reasons why circumcision is so common in this country stems from the sadism of the crypto-pervert."

Morris L. Sorrells, M.D. has talked about people who are sexually motivated by circumcision.

/////+++++/////
I would also like to point out the studies the AAP uses to very controversially claim the 'potential health benefit' of HIV prevention from circumcision were done by men like Daniel T. Halperin Ph.D., who promotes and is proud of being a member of Circlist - an online group that exists for writing and distributing fetish material (erotica [usually involving minors or infants], images) of circumcision and child pornography. A moderator of Circlist, Vernon Quaintance, was convicted for child pornography and molesting an 11 year old boy - served 40 days in jail. Vernon Quaintance also founded and lead the Gilgal Society - and published a full book of circumcision erotica, as well as distrubited video tapes.

Edgar J. Schoen M.D., who was on the AAP committee about circumcision in 1989 and 1999 was also involved with Circlist and the Gilgal Society (being in a position of being able to approve or disapprove content) prior to his death in 2016. Penn (from Penn & Teller) reported that Schoen said circumcised penises smell and look better. And here is a line from some of his circumcision poetry "It's a great work of art like the statue of Venus if you're wearing a hat on the head of your penis." - Schoen

Thomas E. Wiswell, M.D., published a long series of now discredit studies claiming circumcision prevented urinary tract infections. He coauthors articles with Brian Morris and is associated with the Gilgal Society. Edgar J. Schoen used these discredited and methodologically flawed studies for 1989 AAP Circumcision Policy Statement.
"I have some good friends who are obstetricians outside the military, and they look at a foreskin and almost see a $125 price tag on it. Each one is that much money. Heck, if you do 10 a week, that's over $1,000 a week, and they don't take that much time.
– Wiswell (1987-6-22) (The age-old question of circumcision. Boston Globe, p. 43)

Brian Morris, DSc. one of the biggest promotors of circumcision, and who co-authored many scientific articles on the subject was deeply involved in Circlist and the Gilgal Society. He On his website he also recommended websites with the following titles; Erotic Male Circumcision, Circumcised Kids, Circumcision Fetish, SCARandACORN, Teen Circ, Cutting Club, and Beschnittene Gay Boys. He was secretary of Circumcision Academy of Australia - another group dedicated to circumcision erotica and promoting circumcision culturally in Australia.
He has attempted to have critics fired from their positions and has attempted to block research publication that is contrary to his own published work, including the studies of Morten Frisch M.D., Ph.D. (a professor of sexual health epidemiology.) Morris used his mailing list to enact a campaign to write critical letters to the editors of the International Journal of Epidemiology. Brian Morris, along with Jake Waskett and Ronald Gray made extensive, obstructive peer-review comments in a review which included serious insinuations of racism and amateurism. "Breaking unwritten confidentiality and courtesy rules of the peer-review process, Morris distributed his slandering criticism of our study to people working for the same cause." - Morten Frisch
"Circumcision should be made compulsitory." - Brian J. Morris

Jake H. Waskett (no degree), a member of both Circlist and the Gilgal Society, was the #1 editor of circumcision articles on Wikipedia from 2004 - 2012. He is good friends with convicted pedophile Vernon Quaintance. He has coauthored pro-circumcision articles with Daniel Halperin and Thomas E. Wiswell. He also coauthored with Brian Morris who he was/is in regular contact with.

Robert C. Bailey, Ph.D, has published with Brian Morris and has written multiple articles advocated for widespread or universal circumcision. Bailey is an associate of the Gilgal Society."I know foreskin is not pretty, but these slides are pretty." - Bailey

Dr. Stefan A. Bailis, MA, PhysD, LP has published articles with Brian J. Morris, Thomas E. Wiswell, Jake Waskett, Edgar J. Schoen, and Ronald H. Gray. And is associated with The Gilgal Society.

Guy Cox
Ph.D., a member of Circumcision Academy of Australia, writes erotic stories which make reference to the topic of circumcision. One of these stories is called "Airport Encounter." He was/is an active member of Inter-circ, "a global male circumcision appreciation group." He has co-authored parts of a book named, "Surgical Guide to Circumcision,” with Brian Morris. He owned a website boyguard.com, which attempted to sell chastity belts for teenage boys.

Dr. Leslie Schrieber, a member of Circumcision Academy of Australia, and co-author with Brian Morris.

Robin J. Willcourt
is an American gynecologist and obstetrician, was a member of the alleged medical organisation Circumcision Academy of Australia. In 1999, Willcourt was found guilty of disorderly conduct, whilst practicing as a Gynecologist/Obstetrician in the USA. The Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) subsequently found that the offense constituted ‘a crime involving moral turpitude’ and ordered him to pay $4,055.35 ‘for costs involved in the investigation and prosecution of the case against him’. Willcourt’s explanation of the incident: ‘just imagine you’re there in the bushes and you’re taking a leak and somebody comes up behind you and starts talking dirty and you produce an erect penis. I don’t think I buy that. I think that is inconsistent physiologically. That’s one of the biggest holes I see in this case.’ Another said ‘I have a very difficult time believing this sequence of events and his explanation for it’. Transcript of Deliberations

/////+++++/////

The HIV studies these people put together were instantly discredited. European commentators noted instantly the extreme methodological errors and statistically insignificant results. Nevertheless, the AAP used these studies for its 2012 statement. The methodological errors included major confounding errors - limiting the study of the time to be barely outside the window of recovery time from the circumcisions, giving the circumcised men condoms and sex-ed, but not the control. The absolute rate of infection went down by about 1.3%, however the AAP reported a relative rate of 60% apparently to obfuscate the facts. It should also be noted that the AAP saying 'potential health benefits' is because they cannot claim that there are actual health benefits - saying 'potential' protects them from liability - such as when they've been sued for fraud.

Crossdisciplinary researcher Brian D. Earp revealed very graphically how totally biased authors, like Morris and his co-authors, can place pseudoscientific papers in important journals without their bias being admitted or discovered before publication

Talking about his HIV prevention studies, Bailey stated; "repeated study visits and intensive behavioral counseling" of the circumcised men were needed to reduce risk behaviors. and that the circumcised group had specific instructions to abstain from sex and use condoms that the intact control group did not. These are severe confounding variables purposely introduced.

Morten Frisch & Jacob Simonsen (2021) carried out a large scale empirical population study in Denmark of 855,654 males regarding the alleged value of male circumcision in preventing HIV and other sexually transmitted infections in men. They found that circumcised men have a higher rate of STI and HIV infection overall than intact men.
 
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Dogheaded

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Considering all that I have said, why this?

Circumcision - Questions & Answers

Answer​

Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are asking about circumcision for medical or hygenic purposes, the Church does not object.

If you are asking about circumcision for religious reasons, the Church holds to that which is explained in Galatians 6:15, Romans 2:28 and 4:11, and Philippians 3:3—namely, that circumcision was a critical element of the Old Covenent, but not of the New Covenant.
 
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Dogheaded

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Considering all that I have said, why this?

Circumcision - Questions & Answers

Answer​

Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are asking about circumcision for medical or hygenic purposes, the Church does not object.

If you are asking about circumcision for religious reasons, the Church holds to that which is explained in Galatians 6:15, Romans 2:28 and 4:11, and Philippians 3:3—namely, that circumcision was a critical element of the Old Covenent, but not of the New Covenant.

So, let me talk about the framing.

First of all it, it fails to address any peculiarites of the American Practice of Circumcision.
- That almost all circumcisions are done for aesthetic or cosmetic reasons only, not medical or 'hygenic.'
- That almost all circumcisions are done on infants, i.e. this answer is primarily towards parents.
- Does not include the fact that infant circumcision is not recommended by 0 medical licensures worldwide and is universally considered 'not medically necessary and non-therapeutic.'
- That there is no 'hygenic' purpose for circumcision, rather, it fraudulently assumes that there is.

Second of all, 'religious reasons' lowballs the answer
- taking only verses about it not giving spiritual standing.
- not doing any exegesis (besides 'not critical')
- No referencing of the Fathers who are consistently against it
- No referencing that outside of America it is not a practice of the Orthodox Church

The OCA says "for medical or hygienic purposes, the Church does not object" — but that clause does no work in the American context.
This is the OCA almost giving carte blanche to one of the most hideous and widespread crimes in America - when, from our tradition, we should be speaking for the vulnerable.

-
 
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Lukaris

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Dogheaded

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It is practiced though while there seems to be no basis for female mutilation in their tradition.


Too bad there's a basis for female mutilation in the American Evangelical tradition and was practiced commonly until recent times. Just like they love to mutilate little boys and beat children.
 
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Lukaris

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Too bad there's a basis for female mutilation in the American Evangelical tradition and was practiced commonly until recent times. Just like they love to mutilate little boys and beat children.
I try to post factual statements as best I can and believe I have said all I can here.
 
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Dogheaded

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I try to post factual statements as best I can and believe I have said all I can here.
I have posted factual evidence on everything I've said too, including the well known fact that female genital mutilation became common in America as a result of evangelicalism and the anti-masturbation hysteria. It wasn't until the 1970's that FGM started no longer being covered by health insurance - some insurers might have covered it into the 1980's.

(Edit; From wikipedia;
"...in the US, FGM was considered a standard medical procedure in America for most of the 19th and 20th centuries.[[6]]
The medicalization of FGM in the United States allowed these practices to continue until the end of the 20th century, with some procedures covered by Blue Cross Blue Shield Insurance until 1977.")

As for beating children, that's James Dobson, John Rosemond, Gotthard, the Perls, and many other major televangelists and figures.

America was the only country not to ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Children. Why? Can't let the U.N. get in the way of Evangelicals hurting children.

Yet, North Korea signed and ratified it.

American Evangelical parenting norms are illegal in more than 70 countries, including Japan, Turkmenistan, Thailand, Mongolia, most of the EU and Latin America. .
 
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Dogheaded

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I can bring out historical testimonials from American women who were mutilated by American physicians back when it was common.
I can bring out surveys and testimonials from men hurt by this mutilation.
I can dive deeper into the history.
I can provide more robust legal theory and precedent.

Anywhere you want to go, I'm already fully prepared.

All well researched.

Can anyone at all bring up anything against me?
If not, then why does nobody care?

I am critiqued for my language, despite using specific applicable definitions. Tone policing.

Stonewalling.

Ignoring.

Don't allow victims any psycho-existential validity. This is how it is.
 
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RileyG

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Correct;

"The pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." - John Kellog, Plain Facts for Old and Young

"In all cases of masturbation circumcision is undoubtedly the physician's closest friend and ally...
To obtain the best results one must cut away enough skin and mucous membrane to rather put it on the stretch when erections come later. There must be no play in the skin after the wound has thoroughly healed, but it must fit tightly over the penis, for should there be any play the patient will be found to readily resume his practice, not begrudging the time and extra energy required to produce the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. It is true, however, that the longer it takes to have an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], the less frequently it will be attempted, consequently the greater the benefit gained...
The younger the patient operated upon the more pronounced the benefit, though occasionally we find patients who were circumcised before puberty that require a resection of the skin, as it has grown loose and pliant after that epoch." - E.J. Spratling (1895)

/////+++++/////

However, it wasn't just male circumcision. These people created an industry out of both male and female circumcision. John Kellogg advocated pouring carbonic acid on the genitals female children. And they made both male and female circumcision common in the United States.
Same claims of health benefits, same history, same propensity to cause extreme damage.

They claimed that circumcision was a panacea - capable of curing every single disease. This included every form of cancer and epilepsy.

However, some doctors went further, including castrating boys and severing their dorsal nerve.

And the whole point was the pain.
Yikes!

I have no further comment.
 

RileyG

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The Koran has nothing on male circumcision either.
It's my understanding it is common among Muslims, along with female genital mutilation in some Muslim dominated countries. I don't know if it has anything to do with the Quran, but more of a tradition so the woman doesn't experience sexual pleasure, but pain. Per what I read in "Islam for Dummies." Until the mid 20th century, only Jewish male babies and Muslim male babies were circumcised, along with some Protestant, but not Catholic male babies. That's my understanding, anyway. Someone can kindly correct me if I'm wrong.

(posting in fellowship)
 
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RileyG

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I have posted factual evidence on everything I've said too, including the well known fact that female genital mutilation became common in America as a result of evangelicalism and the anti-masturbation hysteria. It wasn't until the 1970's that FGM started no longer being covered by health insurance - some insurers might have covered it into the 1980's.

(Edit; From wikipedia;
"...in the US, FGM was considered a standard medical procedure in America for most of the 19th and 20th centuries.[[6]]
The medicalization of FGM in the United States allowed these practices to continue until the end of the 20th century, with some procedures covered by Blue Cross Blue Shield Insurance until 1977.")

As for beating children, that's James Dobson, John Rosemond, Gotthard, the Perls, and many other major televangelists and figures.

America was the only country not to ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Children. Why? Can't let the U.N. get in the way of Evangelicals hurting children.

Yet, North Korea signed and ratified it.

American Evangelical parenting norms are illegal in more than 70 countries, including Japan, Turkmenistan, Thailand, Mongolia, most of the EU and Latin America. .
That's pretty horrifying! I didn't know if occurred in the United States at all! Yikes!
 
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FreeinChrist

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ADVISOR HAT

meowdy-howdy-cat.gif

This thread was moved to St. Justin's from the main forum.

Carry on.
 
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