Do Bible Sabbath keepers and the Catholic Church Agree on Certain points?

The Liturgist · May 5, 2026

BobRyan said:
Although many focus only on differences... There are some points of agreement on the seventh day Sabbath topic

For example:

1. Sabbath is one of the TEN Commandments
2. The Ten Commandments are part of the moral law of God
3. The moral law of God is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8.

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Catholic Catechism

"2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish Sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

"Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

"2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people

Dies Domini – pt 63

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998)

"63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection.

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The following Catholic document explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'" ((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.

The Faith Explained (Page 242)
" changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

"The Faith Explained" (page 243.)
"we know that in the O.T. it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

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Some even today will admit "Scripture says Keep holy the Sabbath day" or some variation of that statement

And James 2 says not to dismiss even one commandment
And Mark 7:7-13 is where Christ specifically addresses the problem of editing one of the TEN via man's tradition

Millions of Christians today meet for worship and Bible study any/all days of the week But they admit that the seventh day is still the Bible Sabbath. Saturday. A specific day made holy by God according to Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:2-3.

That does not change simply by meeting for worship and prayer on Wednesday for prayer meetings.
Ex 20:10-11 says God Himself made the 7th day Holy as "The Holy day of the Lord" as Is 58:13 also says.

The actual Sabbath commandment put into stone and kept in the Most Holy place as Ex 20:8-11 does not mention any animal sacrifices.

Gen 2:2-3 as given to mankind in Eden does not mention any animal sacrifices.
Is 66:23 Where Sabbath is to be kept for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth, also does not mention any animal sacrifices
Acts 18:4 were Paul preaches the Gospel "every Sabbath" in the synagogues to both gentiles and Jews... Also does not mention any animal sacrifices

Heb 10:4-9 stating that animal sacrifices and offerings end at the Cross...
yet Paul continues worship services "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 and it continues for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth in Is 66:23.
Lev 23:2-3 says the 7th day Sabbath, the one in Ex 20, is a "day of holy convocation" and says nothing about having to sacrifice an animal.

Dan 9 points to prayer and worship, without any sacrifices at all

The new Covenant is in Jer 31:31-34 where the same Law of God is written on the heart as we see in Ex 20, where as Deut 5 says God spoke the 'Ten Words and added no more"

Heb 10 says Christ's sacrifice was "once for all sacrifice"

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Sabbath "The Holy day of the Lord" Ex 20:10, Is 58:13 where God calls it "My Holy Day"

Ex 20:11 "Therefore the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day and made it Holy"

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Is God opposed to "Keeping the Commandments of God"??

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3-4
"IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

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WE can find a lot of agreement in those examples above
Agreement across "certain Christian groups"

The terminology you use is problematic.

The term “The Catholic Church” in the context of the Nicene Creed only refers exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church and sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Pope in the mind of those Christians. To others such as traditional Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Calvinists and Evangelicals, it can mean many other things. Additionally, the term “Bible Sabbath keepers” being used instead of Sabbatarians has the effect of implying that the Catholic Church however it is not keeping the Sabbath in a manner consistent with Scripture, which in the case of the both the Roman Catholic and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches I would disagree with - I would say that the Orthodox are very much Bible Sabbath Keepers in that we worship on every Sabbath throughout the year in preparation for worship on the Lord’s Day that follows.

SabbathBlessings · May 5, 2026

There is no such thing in the Bible that the Sabbath is to prepare for worship for the "Lords day" which people outside the Bible call day 1. God in His written and spoken Testimony says the Sabbath is the seventh day Exo20:10. God in His personal written and spoken Testimony said all other days were made for works and labors Exo20:9 He only designated one weekly day to keep holy Exo20:8-11

The Sabbath is the day honor and worship God is we allow God to speak and we believe Him at His Word.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

Both Thus saith the LORDs, there is no Scripture and no thus saith the LORD that the Sabbath is a preparation day for another day to worship God on. This is sadly a very deceptive doctrine. Why no one ever uses Scripture to support these types of statements. Its not that our LORD was not clear on the day He designed as His, its not believing Him at His Word.

The Liturgist · May 5, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
There is no such thing in the Bible that the Sabbath is to prepare for worship for the "Lords day" which people outside the Bible call day 1.

I’m not outside the Bible and I call the First Day the Lord’s Day, like most Christians, because it was on that day that God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost created the universe, rose from the dead (allowing our resurrection), and descended on the Twelve Apostles and their disciples in the Upper Room on Pentecost. See Genesis ch. 1, John ch. 1, Matthew ch. 28, Acts ch. 2.

The Holiness of the Sabbath cannot be separated from the fact that it was on that day that Christ our True God rested in the Tomb after remaking us in HIs image on the Cross. It is additionally holy because of its connection between His passion and His resurrection and its reflection of the Incarnation of Christ in the womb of the Theotokos. The rest described in Genesis can be regarded as a prophecy of this (since God is immutable, unchanging, and impassable except with regards to His Incarnation in the person of the Son and Logos). Thus the Sabbath is connected to Great and Holy Friday, and the Lord’s Day, the feast of the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath in addition is anticipatory, of the light of the world to come, and is symbolic of our rest in Christ.

Thus I worship on all days, but chiefly rejoice on the Seventh and First days, the Fourth and Sixth days being fasting days because of the betrayal and crucifixion of our Lord, and the Fifth day being a commemoration of the institution of the Eucharist.

Freth · May 9, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Ezekiel 20:16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

For God Himself to claim profaning His Sabbath and compare it to idol worship- He said its doing evil, I think its something for people to really consider which voice they are listening to.

Ezekiel 20:16. They broke the commandments, in other words. They despised His judgments and didn't walk in His statutes. They polluted His Sabbaths. (Clearly God wants us to observe the Sabbath.) Their heart went after their idols. Idolatry.

Where else do we see idolatry?

Revelation 13:12-17. The beast that comes up out of the earth causes all to worship the beast and his image. Idolatry.

Where in recent history can we see the restricting of buying and selling on a world scale? God is trying to tell us something.

The Liturgist · May 9, 2026

Freth said:
They broke the commandments, in other words. They despised His judgments and didn't walk in His statutes. They polluted His Sabbaths. (Clearly God wants us to observe the Sabbath.) Their heart went after their idols. Idolatry.

Indeed, but it was the Jews who did that. Traditional Christians have not done that, neither have we engaged in idolatry (for an icon is not an idol).

Some liberal Christians by engaging in syncretic observances have arguably repeated the error St. Ezekiel complains of, but they are an extreme minority in dying denominations.

The Liturgist · May 9, 2026

Freth said:
Where in recent history can we see the restricting of buying and selling on a world scale?

In recent years we have seen some (keyword: some) multinational corporations attempting to discriminate against traditional Christians in a variety of ways, but this discrimination is not specifically targeted against Sabbatarians, indeed, traditional Catholics and others who support crisis pregnancy centers have been the most severely afflicted.

We do not know that we are in the immediate end times as asserted by some Adventists, and also Premillenial Dispensationalists, both groups being in error by overly fixating on the timing of the eschaton rather than the more immediate problem of our own impending deaths (for if Christ returns tomorrow or ten million years in the future, we will all stand before his dread judgement seat) for no man can know the day or the hour.

SabbathBlessings · May 9, 2026

Freth said:
Ezekiel 20:16. They broke the commandments, in other words. They despised His judgments and didn't walk in His statutes. They polluted His Sabbaths. (Clearly God wants us to observe the Sabbath.) Their heart went after their idols. Idolatry.

Where else do we see idolatry?

Revelation 13:12-17. The beast that comes up out of the earth causes all to worship the beast and his image. Idolatry.

Where in recent history can we see the restricting of buying and selling on a world scale? God is trying to tell us something.

God is trying to tell us something. Every thus saith the LORD He says keep My Sabbath, don't profane it, keep My commandments. God really tells us everything we need to know to live by Mat4:4 its not that He was not clear, but sadly its the same story repeating itself.

Happy Sabbath!

Capbook2 · May 28, 2026

DamianWarS said:
Hebrews 8 does not say Christ gave the law at Sinai which is an odd thing to say. You will have to point out the verse for me to understand the point you're trying to make.

If the "any time" refers to the non hearing of the Father voice and so is seeing His form, Whom would we believe gave the 10 in Mt. Sinai?
As the word "anytime" bears Strong#G4455, in Greek "πώποτε pōpote" defined by Bible Lexicons as - ever anytime etc.

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 5:37 "And the FatherG3962 who sentG3992 Me, R1He has testifiedG3140 of Me. You have neitherG3777 heardG191 His voiceG5456 at anyG4455 timeG4455 norG3777 seenG3708 His formG1491b.

G4455 (Thayer Lexicon)
πώποτε pōpote
1) ever, at any time

G4455 (Mounce Lexicon)
πώποτε pōpote
6x: ever yet, ever, at any time, Luk_19:30; Jhn_1:18.

DamianWarS said:
Heb 8:6 calls Christ the “mediator of a better covenant” it quotes Jeremiah 31 where the speaker is God (as per the quote) and concludes in v13 the covenant has been made obsolete "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." I get Jesus = God so implicitly the second person of the Trinity is present, but you're making a distinct point about Christ to validate the old covenant (which you only include the 10 and dietary laws), yet ignore the part that says it has been made obsolete.

May we know your definition of covenant?

The word "covenant" with Strong#H1285, in Hebrew "בּרית berı̂yth" defined by Bible Lexicon as - treaty agreement, man to man, between God and man etc.

Basing from that definition, covenant as an agreement between two parties, in this regard between God and man.
Before the giving of the Ten Commandments, there was an agreement made between God and man, (Ex 19:5-8) whom was always violated by the fathers, as God find fault with them. (Heb 8:8)

That's the "covenant/agreement" which became obsolete, not the Ten Commandments, the only change God made in Heb 8, was only the placement of His Laws, from the tablets of stone to the tablets of heart. (2Cor 3:3)

Exo 19:5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
Exo 19:6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
Exo 19:7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him.
Exo 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD.

Gen 9:9 "Now beholdH2009, R1I MyselfH589 do establishH6965 My covenantH1285 with you, and with your N1descendantsH2233 afterH310 you;

H1285 (Brown, Driver, Brigss Lexicon)
בּרית berı̂yth
1) covenant, alliance, pledge
1a) between men
1a1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
1a2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
1a3) agreement, pledge (man to man)
1a4) alliance (of friendship)
1a5) alliance (of marriage)
1b) between God and man
1b1) alliance (of friendship)
1b2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2) (phrases)
2a) covenant making
2b) covenant keeping
2c) covenant violation

DamianWarS · May 28, 2026

Capbook2 said:
If the "any time" refers to the non hearing of the Father voice and so is seeing His form, Whom would we believe gave the 10 in Mt. Sinai?
As the word "anytime" bears Strong#G4455, in Greek "πώποτε pōpote" defined by Bible Lexicons as - ever anytime etc.

John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 5:37 "And the FatherG3962 who sentG3992 Me, R1He has testifiedG3140 of Me. You have neitherG3777 heardG191 His voiceG5456 at anyG4455 timeG4455 norG3777 seenG3708 His formG1491b.

G4455 (Thayer Lexicon)
πώποτε pōpote
1) ever, at any time

G4455 (Mounce Lexicon)
πώποτε pōpote
6x: ever yet, ever, at any time, Luk_19:30; Jhn_1:18

that would be mixing different contextes together. Hebrews is not John, John is not Hebrews. John's point is not that Jesus made the 10 commandments so they are binding on in the NC which is basically what you're claiming.

God is Spirit, he is not voice or other material thing that we can receive with our senses. But he can manipulate sounds waves and visuals manifestations to his will. So the thing you see or hear, is not God, it's voice and visuals that our senses can interpret and can be temporary. In Christian theology this is called a theophany. But a theophany doesn't demand the incarnation, and its temporary nature moves away from an incarnation.

For it to be the incarnation a birth is needed but what Exodus shows is God manifesting in burning bushes, pillars of cloud/fire lighting and thunder, etc... very fluid movments that don't seem characteristic of an incarnation like we see with Jesus who is born fully human and remains as a human until his death, then is resurrected back into his body.

The son becomes incarnate upon conception and a theological word we use for that is Theotokos. It's a title of Mary meaning "God-bearer" but it actually has little to do with Mary and is more of a theological claim that the moment of conception the Son becomes incarnate, this is to preserve both Christ's divinity and humanity.

That understanding doesn't fit an experience on Mt Sinai as that is not the moment of the incarnation. Could it have been the Son? The Son eternally exists before the incarnation so in that respect it could be but Sinai is not an incarnation event. It's really a moot point as the Father, Son and Spirit are in agreement but it certainly doesn't demand the Son's unique presence upon the 10 or that he uniquely made the 10. It's an odd point to make, but It really doesn't matter, as I said the Father, Son and Spirit are in complete agreement and the 10 inherit this agreement.

Capbook2 said:
Basing from that definition, covenant as an agreement between two parties, in this regard between God and man.
Before the giving of the Ten Commandments, there was an agreement made between God and man, (Ex 19:5-8) whom was always violated by the fathers, as God find fault with them. (Heb 8:8)

That's the "covenant/agreement" which became obsolete, not the Ten Commandments, the only change God made in Heb 8, was only the placement of His Laws, from the tablets of stone to the tablets of heart. (2Cor 3:3)

Exo 19:5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
Exo 19:6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
Exo 19:7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him.
Exo 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD.

Gen 9:9 "Now beholdH2009, R1I MyselfH589 do establishH6965 My covenantH1285 with you, and with your N1descendantsH2233 afterH310 you;

H1285 (Brown, Driver, Brigss Lexicon)
בּרית berı̂yth
1) covenant, alliance, pledge
1a) between men
1a1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
1a2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
1a3) agreement, pledge (man to man)
1a4) alliance (of friendship)
1a5) alliance (of marriage)
1b) between God and man
1b1) alliance (of friendship)
1b2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2) (phrases)
2a) covenant making
2b) covenant keeping
2c) covenant violation

Ex 19 is a preamble to the covenant not a fully rarified covenant itself. There was ceremony, agreement and covenant invitation but it does not stand alone as the covenant agreement. There was a mass consecration event and agreement to make ready for the covenant. Ex 20 are the spoken 10 (no tablets) and at which point the Israelites were too afraid to hear form God so directly so Moses mediated the rest of the covenant terms. In Ex 24 Moses wrote all the words of the Lord down and (Ex 20-23) and all agreed to the covenant, at which point the covenant was radified through a blood covenant ceremony, then Moses is invited to go up the mountain. The tablets are made in Ex 31 like a seal of the covenant and the covenant documents themselves which of course were remade in Ex 34.

To separate Ex 19 itself and declare this the covenant of Israel is a gross misunderstanding of the context that I don't think any doctrine supports and is more akin to a search and replace form of trying to make the 10 seem to stand separate. Call Exodus 19 whatever you want sure it uses covenant language but the blood covenant is established in Ex 24 which ncludes all the words of the Lord in Ex 20 to 23 and are not separating the 10 from these other words of the Lord.

Ex 24:8
“And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, ‘Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.’”

Ex 19 is part of it still, just with no explicit commandments except to keep the covenant. It is preparation for the covenant terms. Exodus 19:8 the people reply "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." Then Ex 20-23 are the covenant terms and Ex 24 the covenant is radified with blood in V8. the same phase appears just before the blood ceremony in Ex 24:7 “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” establishing bookends to the covenant where we can read all the covenant's terms clearly marked knowing the start and end and I encourage you to read them for yourself rather than stopping at 19 because you found the word "covenant" used and desperately want to separate the 10 from this covenant. They may be central to the covenant but they do not stand apart from the covenant itself.

Capbook2 · Friday at 3:32 AM

DamianWarS said:
that would be mixing different contextes together. Hebrews is not John, John is not Hebrews. John's point is not that Jesus made the 10 commandments so they are binding on in the NC which is basically what you're claiming.

That is Scriptures interpret Scriptures no man's contribution. As John wrote, God created all things through the Word, the "Word" defined as the Logos/speech, Who do you believe utter the "Let Us make man in Our image?" Was Jesus wrong when He said John 5:37?

DamianWarS said:
God is Spirit, he is not voice or other material thing that we can receive with our senses. But he can manipulate sounds waves and visuals manifestations to his will. So the thing you see or hear, is not God, it's voice and visuals that our senses can interpret and can be temporary. In Christian theology this is called a theophany. But a theophany doesn't demand the incarnation, and its temporary nature moves away from an incarnation.

You state, the Father, "is not a voice," let's visit John 5:37 again, Jesus said, "The Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me ((NAS95), bore witness of me (KJV). Was Jesus mistaken to say it, "testified/bore witness", during His baptism, the transfiguration, Hebrews chapter 1 and etc?

The word "witness/testified" bears Strong#G3140, in Greek "μαρτυρέω martureō" defined by Bible Lexicon as - to utter honourable testimony, to affirm that one has seen or heard or experienced something and etc.

Does to "utter" not the voice of the one mentioned in the text?

(NAS95) John 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
(KJV) John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

G3140 (Thayer Lexicon)
μαρτυρέω martureō
1) to be a witness, to bear witness, i.e. to affirm that one has seen or heard or experienced something, or that he knows it because taught by divine revelation or inspiration
1a) to give (not to keep back) testimony
1b) to utter honourable testimony, give a good report

DamianWarS said:
For it to be the incarnation a birth is needed but what Exodus shows is God manifesting in burning bushes, pillars of cloud/fire lighting and thunder, etc... very fluid movments that don't seem characteristic of an incarnation like we see with Jesus who is born fully human and remains as a human until his death, then is resurrected back into his body.

Yes, Jesus was human and also God, the God's nature of the Word in Him, Whom He opted Himself emptied into.
How could a bloodless Word shed blood for our salvation if He was not made a bloodful flesh?

DamianWarS said:
The son becomes incarnate upon conception and a theological word we use for that is Theotokos. It's a title of Mary meaning "God-bearer" but it actually has little to do with Mary and is more of a theological claim that the moment of conception the Son becomes incarnate, this is to preserve both Christ's divinity and humanity.

That understanding doesn't fit an experience on Mt Sinai as that is not the moment of the incarnation. Could it have been the Son? The Son eternally exists before the incarnation so in that respect it could be but Sinai is not an incarnation event. It's really a moot point as the Father, Son and Spirit are in agreement but it certainly doesn't demand the Son's unique presence upon the 10 or that he uniquely made the 10. It's an odd point to make, but It really doesn't matter, as I said the Father, Son and Spirit are in complete agreement and the 10 inherit this agreement.

Jesus was the Word before He became flesh, I believe the "word of the Lord" in the Old Testament. (1Sam 3:21)

1Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, because the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

DamianWarS said:
Ex 19 is a preamble to the covenant not a fully rarified covenant itself. There was ceremony, agreement and covenant invitation but it does not stand alone as the covenant agreement. There was a mass consecration event and agreement to make ready for the covenant. Ex 20 are the spoken 10 (no tablets) and at which point the Israelites were too afraid to hear form God so directly so Moses mediated the rest of the covenant terms. In Ex 24 Moses wrote all the words of the Lord down and (Ex 20-23) and all agreed to the covenant, at which point the covenant was radified through a blood covenant ceremony, then Moses is invited to go up the mountain. The tablets are made in Ex 31 like a seal of the covenant and the covenant documents themselves which of course were remade in Ex 34.

Yes, Exodus 24:7 speaks of the people in agreement, "all that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"
And it was ratified by blood verse 28.

Exo 24:7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"
Exo 24:8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

DamianWarS said:
To separate Ex 19 itself and declare this the covenant of Israel is a gross misunderstanding of the context that I don't think any doctrine supports and is more akin to a search and replace form of trying to make the 10 seem to stand separate. Call Exodus 19 whatever you want sure it uses covenant language but the blood covenant is established in Ex 24 which ncludes all the words of the Lord in Ex 20 to 23 and are not separating the 10 from these other words of the Lord.

Ex 24:8
“And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, ‘Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.’”

Ex 19 is part of it still, just with no explicit commandments except to keep the covenant. It is preparation for the covenant terms. Exodus 19:8 the people reply "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." Then Ex 20-23 are the covenant terms and Ex 24 the covenant is radified with blood in V8. the same phase appears just before the blood ceremony in Ex 24:7 “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” establishing bookends to the covenant where we can read all the covenant's terms clearly marked knowing the start and end and I encourage you to read them for yourself rather than stopping at 19 because you found the word "covenant" used and desperately want to separate the 10 from this covenant. They may be central to the covenant but they do not stand apart from the covenant itself.

Now, at least we're clear enough that the "covenant" made obsolete was the agreement made in Ex 19 and ratified in Exodus 24.
And not the Laws of God that was fingerwritten on the tablets of stone but now in the tablets of heart. (2Cor 3:3)

DamianWarS · Friday at 2:02 PM

Capbook2 said:
Now, at least we're clear enough that the "covenant" made obsolete was the agreement made in Ex 19 and ratified in Exodus 24.

the tablets are the covenant documents, they are even called "the two tablets of covenant law" and the Sabbath law is a sign of the covenant. the 10 are uniquely defined before the tablets and are spoken in Ex 20 detailed as a part of the covenant terms. They are not separate to the covenant, they are wholly a part of it.

Capbook2 · Friday at 6:21 PM

DamianWarS said:
the tablets are the covenant documents, they are even called "the two tablets of covenant law" and the Sabbath law is a sign of the covenant. the 10 are uniquely defined before the tablets and are spoken in Ex 20 detailed as a part of the covenant terms. They are not separate to the covenant, they are wholly a part of it.

Yes, the Ten Commandments is the content of the agreement to be obeyed to, as God's people said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"(Exo 24:7) Includes the fourth of the 10, the seventh day Sabbath, rested, blessed and sanctified.

DamianWarS · Friday at 9:11 PM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the Ten Commandments is the content of the agreement to be obeyed to, as God's people said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"(Exo 24:7) Includes the fourth of the 10, the seventh day Sabbath, rested, blessed and sanctified.

The people agree to all the words of the Lord. It includes the 10 (which includes the 4th) it also includes the commandments in Ex 21, 22, and 23. These are the initial covenant terms sealed under a blood covenant of 24:8.

Capbook2 · Saturday at 12:04 AM

DamianWarS said:
The people agree to all the words of the Lord. It includes the 10 (which includes the 4th) it also includes the commandments in Ex 21, 22, and 23. These are the initial covenant terms sealed under a blood covenant of 24:8.

Yes, the book of the law placed beside the ark, that it may remain as a witness against them, as most of them are shadows in Colossians 2.
While the Ten Commandments placed inside the ark.

Deu 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

BobRyan · Sunday at 4:16 PM

DamianWarS said:
The people agree to all the words of the Lord. It includes the 10 (which includes the 4th) it also includes the commandments in Ex 21, 22, and 23. These are the initial covenant terms sealed under a blood covenant of 24:8.

Deut 5:22 says God spoke the ten "and added no more"

Only the ten inside the ark and the text says the words spoken were written on stone. This only applies to the Ten but clearly Matt 22 includes more commandments as part of the moral law of God defining what sin is.

Every time God's Law (that defines sin) is quoted the TEN are quoted from as we see in Rom 13, James 2, Rom 7 etc. Never are ceremonies included

The Liturgist · Monday at 6:19 AM

BobRyan said:
Deut 5:22 says God spoke the ten "and added no more"

A statement in the past tense, since Christ our True God expressly described His commandment that we love one another as He loves us to be a New Commandment. God’s words, not mine.

DamianWarS · Monday at 10:35 PM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the book of the law placed beside the ark, that it may remain as a witness against them, as most of them are shadows in Colossians 2.
While the Ten Commandments placed inside the ark.

Deu 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Inside the book of the covenant are the 10 commandments. (Ex 24:4) The tablets are made after the formation of the covenant and after the 10 were committed to the book of the covenant, being the first commandments of the covenant. Those commandments, along with the rest of the covenant, are a part of the witness against. The tablets themselves are called "the two tablets of covenant law" They do not form a special covenant and inherit the state of the wider covenant. We know this because the commandments were the first of the covenant so the tablets don't have anything that the covenant itself doesn't have.

Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." so there is no longer a law that is a witness against; this law includes the 10. The tablets do not stand apart as they are part of the law that stood as a witness against and established before the tablets themselves were made. No biblical teaching separates them from the covenant in which they were created. Moses's remarks about keeping them in the ark are not him implicitly saying the tablets form a special universal covenant, which is far too little information to support such a major covenant change.

DamianWarS · Monday at 11:53 PM

BobRyan said:
Every time God's Law (that defines sin) is quoted the TEN are quoted from as we see in Rom 13, James 2, Rom 7 etc. Never are ceremonies included

Parts are quoted, but never in completion. The support goes to the commandments 6-10, not 1-4, and they are reframed under the new. 1-3 are implicit, Jesus quotes the Shema in Mark 12:29-31 "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord..." This is a monotheistic claim, so it is implict of monothesist rule like what we see in 1-3. The second greatest is a quote not of the 10, but of something outside of the 10 in Lev 19:18, which is to "love your neighbor as yourself". The Shema was already central to Jewish worship; no one would disagree in calling it the greatest. What it highlights, however, is the goal of our worship, not the action of our worship. When Christ couples it with "love your neighbour as yourself", he is showing the action of worship as well as the object of worship. We can conclude that the action of loving our neighbour as ourselves, as Christ highlights, is the action of love to God.

So, where is the 4th commandment? The 4th commandment is also a monotheistic claim layered in ceremony (and as you said, Paul never includes ceremony). The 7th-day practice was already venerated in the ANE (ancient Near East) cultures before Moses came along. The 4th commandment redeems this day to point to creation that is not aligned with the lunar calendar, which ANE cultures would do (like the Babylonians), they would adjust the weekdays so that the beginning of each month started on the same day with can create subtle lunar authority. The Hebrews usurped pagan authorities and uniquely established a system of keeping strictly 7 days, then looping it again, decoupling the week from the lunar month. Since the 4th points to the completed creation of a monotheistic God, and it does so in a unique way that usurps pagan authorities, it is fundamentally a monotheistic claim, not a "special day" claim (which in itself would be a pagan mindset). We do not reject this when creation is reframed to the new creation, because we are the vessels of darkness that light is spoken into, we are transformed and made complete, and we are set apart and called holy. We are not the sabbath rest, but Christ and his work through us is.

The 10 lock in a day, which is legal code, but the purpose is not about a special day, and this is the limits of any legal code, It is about the claim that the one true God sends his light into darkness, transforms and completes it so that it is set apart and is called holy, and that is the gospel message.

Capbook2 · Tuesday at 3:53 AM

DamianWarS said:
Inside the book of the covenant are the 10 commandments. (Ex 24:4) The tablets are made after the formation of the covenant and after the 10 were committed to the book of the covenant, being the first commandments of the covenant. Those commandments, along with the rest of the covenant, are a part of the witness against.

Yes, the book of the covenant in Exodus 20:22–23:33, part of the Book of the Law.

DamianWarS said:
The tablets themselves are called "the two tablets of covenant law"

May we know what verse state above?

DamianWarS said:
They do not form a special covenant and inherit the state of the wider covenant. We know this because the commandments were the first of the covenant so the tablets don't have anything that the covenant itself doesn't have.

Do you always use the word "covenant" as the agreement here?

DamianWarS said:
Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." so there is no longer a law that is a witness against; this law includes the 10.

Penalties are against us, but nothing in the Ten Commandments that state punishments or against us.

DamianWarS said:
The tablets do not stand apart as they are part of the law that stood as a witness against and established before the tablets themselves were made. No biblical teaching separates them from the covenant in which they were created.

The Ten Commandments in two tablets of stone was placed separate from the book of the covenant recorded in Exodus 20:22-23:33, as part of the Book of the Law.

We must bear in mind that it was God not Moses decides that the Ten Commandments be placed inside the ark, while the Book of the Law by Moses that it may remain against the people, also contain the Book of the covenant be placed beside the ark.

To use modern terms, the Ten Commandments are the core constitutional principles, while the Book of the Covenant is the expanded legal code built upon those principles. For a detailed breakdown of these laws, we can read more on Britannica's Book of the Covenant.

Book of the Covenant | biblical literature | Britannica

Other articles where Book of the Covenant is discussed: biblical literature: Legislation: The Covenant Code, or Book of the Covenant, presented in chapters 20–23, immediately following the Decalogue (Ten Commandments), opens with a short passage on ritual ordinances, followed by social and civil...

www.britannica.com

DamianWarS · Tuesday at 11:34 AM

Capbook2 said:
Yes, the book of the covenant in Exodus 20:22–23:33, part of the Book of the Law.

The covenant preamble is in chapter 19. The covenant terms start in Chapter 20:1. The blood covenant is made in Ex 24. Everything in between is the covenant terms.

Capbook2 said:
May we know what verse state above?

In several places, the tablets are referenced with the covenant. The exact quote is from Exodus 31:18. But Deut. 9:9, 9:11, 9:15 or 10:1–4
are notable, which addressed them as "the tablets of the covenant"

Capbook2 said:
Do you always use the word "covenant" as the agreement here?

This is pedantic. The words mean the same thing, convenant being more formal. I don't replace the word agreement with covenant in all cases; I'm mirroring biblical language based on the context.

Capbook2 said:
Penalties are against us, but nothing in the Ten Commandments that state punishments or against us.

The 10 are a part of covenant law; they are included in the book of law. We can read them plainly by reading Ex 20-23. Ex 19 is the preample and Ex 24 is the blood covenant ceremony. Ex 20 (all of it) 21, 22, and 23 are all the initial covenant terms.

Capbook2 said:
The Ten Commandments in two tablets of stone was placed separate from the book of the covenant recorded in Exodus 20:22-23:33, as part of the Book of the Law.

We must bear in mind that it was God not Moses decides that the Ten Commandments be placed inside the ark, while the Book of the Law by Moses that it may remain against the people, also contain the Book of the covenant be placed beside the ark.

To use modern terms, the Ten Commandments are the core constitutional principles, while the Book of the Covenant is the expanded legal code built upon those principles. For a detailed breakdown of these laws, we can read more on Britannica's Book of the Covenant.

The 10 can be reasonably described as the core constitutional principles of the covenant. But they cannot be reasonably described as the universal core constitutional principles that extend outside the covenant. There is a fundamental truth that the 10 are based on, which is universal, but they are framed in covenant legal code that we need to unpack first to understand how they apply outside the covenant. To start with, they are framed using moral thresholds with large gaps of the root of moral failure. The 4th calls out that it's based on the 7th day, but the 7th day has no legal framework. The 4th then, is the covenant legal framework that has embedded truth rooted in creation, but this doesn't superimpose the legal code over creation, just as it doesn't superimpose it over the new covenant. Sabbath law itself is the sign of the covenant, so how much clearer does it need to be?

The Book of the Covenant includes the 10, and they are not separate from it. Moses wrote "ALL" the words of the Lord down. For a detailed look at these laws, we can read them in Ex 20-23

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