Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

Blueprints · May 27, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Its not.

On the other hand Genesis 1 very clearly prophesies the events of Holy Week, specifically the crucifixion on Great and Holy Friday, in which Christ remade man in his image on the Cross, the repose of Christ in the tomb on Great and Holy Saturday, and the Resurrection (Let there be light!).

That is not to exclude all literal interpretations of Genesis ch. 1 although personally I am not a young Earth creationist.

The entire Gospel, and the entire History of the world (for the last 6,250 years) is in Genesis 1-2, the spiritual, following the natural (1 Cor. 15:46).

Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

You can see this here:

The Redemption Of The Creation 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Redemption Of The Creation 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel FilesYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

Details, can be DL'ed here - https://archive.org/download/the-re.../7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel.odt

Just curious, why are you not a 'YEC'? The vast majority of Christians for the last 2K years were (see link just above).

Blueprints · May 27, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Soul sleep is not a sustainable doctrine, neither is the idea of different resurrections for different groups of people.

The book demonstrates it is 'the' doctrine of the whole of scripture, and of the Apostles:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

The idea of differing resurrections, is also clearly taught in scripture, which is also presented in the book as well.

Firstfruits resurrection at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:

Firstfruits (NT) - Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; & Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Victory Train into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Acts 1.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Special resurrection:

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice it says "many", and not 'all', and in this particular resurrection are "some" saints (connected to Dan. 12:12; Rev. 14:13) and "some" lost. Those Pharisees & Sadducees at Christ's trial, which condemned him, will be specially raised to see Jesus coming in the clouds (2nd Advent), along with those which "pierced him". So, that resurrection is before Jesus is above the earth, and is still in coming towards earth.

First Great resurrection of the Saints (Saints only raised, no lost raised here), at Jesus' 2nd Advent above the earth, after the Special Resurrection, beginning of the 1000 years:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Luk_14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5b "... This is the first resurrection."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Second Great resurrection of the Lost (Finally impenitent, only Lost raised, no Saints raised here), at the 3rd Advent of Jesus, at the ending of the 1000 years:

Isa_24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Rev 20:5a "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ..."

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Chaplain Jim · May 27, 2026

Blueprints said:
The book demonstrates it is 'the' doctrine of the whole of scripture, and of the Apostles:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

The idea of differing resurrections, is also clearly taught in scripture, which is also presented in the book as well.

Firstfruits resurrection at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:

Firstfruits (NT) - Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; & Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Victory Train into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Acts 1.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Special resurrection:

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice it says "many", and not 'all', and in this particular resurrection are "some" saints (connected to Dan. 12:12; Rev. 14:13) and "some" lost. Those Pharisees & Sadducees at Christ's trial, which condemned him, will be specially raised to see Jesus coming in the clouds (2nd Advent), along with those which "pierced him". So, that resurrection is before Jesus is above the earth, and is still in coming towards earth.

First Great resurrection of the Saints (Saints only raised, no lost raised here), at Jesus' 2nd Advent above the earth, after the Special Resurrection, beginning of the 1000 years:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Luk_14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5b "... This is the first resurrection."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Second Great resurrection of the Lost (Finally impenitent, only Lost raised, no Saints raised here), at the 3rd Advent of Jesus, at the ending of the 1000 years:

Isa_24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Rev 20:5a "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ..."

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Wow!

Lost Witness · May 27, 2026

Often in the word Of God when it speaks of the dead being raised it means being brought spiritually back to life…

SabbathBlessings · May 27, 2026

Blueprints said:
The book demonstrates it is 'the' doctrine of the whole of scripture, and of the Apostles:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

The idea of differing resurrections, is also clearly taught in scripture, which is also presented in the book as well.

Firstfruits resurrection at the time of Jesus' own resurrection:

Firstfruits (NT) - Mat. 27:50-53, 28:1-4; Isa. 26:19; (for Jesus, see also Psa. 40:6; Heb. 10:5; Gal. 4:4); Psa. 68:8,17-21 (vs 21., see Gen. 3:15); compare Psa. 68:18 to Eph. 4:8-10; & Lev. 23:9-14; 15-22 (Firstfruits) to 1 Cor. 15:21-23. See also Psa. 24:1-10 (Victory Train into New Jerusalem), with Psa. 98:1-3; Col. 2:15. See also Acts 1.

Isa_26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Special resurrection:

Dan_12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat_26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Rev_1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice it says "many", and not 'all', and in this particular resurrection are "some" saints (connected to Dan. 12:12; Rev. 14:13) and "some" lost. Those Pharisees & Sadducees at Christ's trial, which condemned him, will be specially raised to see Jesus coming in the clouds (2nd Advent), along with those which "pierced him". So, that resurrection is before Jesus is above the earth, and is still in coming towards earth.

First Great resurrection of the Saints (Saints only raised, no lost raised here), at Jesus' 2nd Advent above the earth, after the Special Resurrection, beginning of the 1000 years:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Luk_14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Act_24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5b "... This is the first resurrection."

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Second Great resurrection of the Lost (Finally impenitent, only Lost raised, no Saints raised here), at the 3rd Advent of Jesus, at the ending of the 1000 years:

Isa_24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Rev 20:5a "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ..."

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Good post! Just to add....

Jesus taught this so plainly...

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

Blueprints · May 27, 2026

MarkRohfrietsch said:
So wrong, The Good Thief on the cross bedide our Lord went o paridise that very day that he died, unless our Lord lied to him.

That is clearly addressed in the book, and in the context, and it doesn't say that anyone went to Paradise that day (not even the 'Creeds' say this, also given in the book). You simply misunderstood what Jesus said in context. Jesus was simply promising the penitent thief, that day, that in the resurrection he would be with Him (Jesus) then, even as the penitent thief acknowledged:

Luk_23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan_7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Blueprints · May 27, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Good post! Just to add....

Jesus taught this so plainly...

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

Thank you, but I notice instead of actually reading the material in the book, they simply want to go around in circles on the texts already provided in the book, without looking at the book and the context of those passages and texts they raise, one after the other. Even when addressing their individual texts and passages, they simply move to another, and do not acknowledge the response, and then finally circle back around to the one they started with, as if it were not already addressed to them. Members of the WTS / JW do the same thing with texts on Christ's Deity / Humanity.

Blueprints · May 27, 2026

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Where is that found in Scripture??

Where is what found in scripture? Can you be more specific?

SabbathBlessings · May 27, 2026

Blueprints said:
Thank you, but I notice instead of actually reading the material in the book, they simply want to go around in circles on the texts already provided in the book, without looking at the book and the context of those passages and texts they raise, one after the other. Even when addressing their individual texts and passages, they simply move to another, and do not acknowledge the response, and then finally circle back around to the one they started with, as if it were not already addressed to them. Members of the WTS / JW do the same thing with texts on Christ's Deity / Humanity.

Sadly, this is common. If they do not believe the very words of Jesus Christ, not much more anyone else can do but pray. Good job of laying out the Scriptures, we can show them but its up to the individual to believe.

MarkRohfrietsch · May 27, 2026

Blueprints said:
That is clearly addressed in the book, and in the context, and it doesn't say that anyone went to Paradise that day (not even the 'Creeds' say this, also given in the book). You simply misunderstood what Jesus said in context. Jesus was simply promising the penitent thief, that day, that in the resurrection he would be with Him (Jesus) then, even as the penitent thief acknowledged:

I simply misunderstood???? Give us all a break why don't you. You have no idea how foolish and full of it you appear to everyone, plainly dening the words of our Lord as found in Scripture. Take your pick of the translation; you will note the even the bad translations agree with this.

Your statement above is tantamount to blasphemy and calling our Lord Jesus a liar. I find this truly repugnant.

The good thief faithfully repented, the is the only way you or I will ever see paraidise and come into the presence of God.

Luke 23:43
KJ21
And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”
ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
AMP
Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
AMPC
And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
BRG
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
CSBA
And he said to him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
CEB
Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”
CJB
Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”
CEV
Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”
DARBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
DLNT
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.
DRA
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
ERV
Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
EASY
Jesus replied, ‘I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
EHV
Jesus said to him, “Amen I tell you: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
ESVUK
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
EXB
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [C heaven or the presence of God].”
GNV
Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
GW
Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
GNT
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”
HCSB
And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”
ICB
Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”
ISV
Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
PHILLIPS
And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”
JUB
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
AKJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
LSB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
LEB
And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
TLB
And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”
MSG
He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”
MEV
Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
MOUNCE
And Jesus said to him, “In solemn truth I tell you: today you will be with me in · paradise.”
NOG
Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
NABRE
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NASB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NASB1995
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
NCB
Jesus said to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NCV
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NET
And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIRV
Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIVUK
Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NLV
Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NMB
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.
NRSVA
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
NRSVACE
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
NRSVCE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NRSVUE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NTFE
“I’m telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “you’ll be with me in paradise, this very day.”
OJB
And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.
RGT
Then Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
RSV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
RSVCE
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
TLV
Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
VOICE
Jesus: I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.
WEB
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
WE
And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'
WYC
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
YLT
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

SabbathBlessings · May 27, 2026

MarkRohfrietsch said:
I simply misunderstood???? Give us all a break why don't you. You have no idea how foolish and full of it you appear to everyone, plainly dening the words of our Lord as found in Scripture. Take your pick of the translation; you will note the even the bad translations agree with this.

Your statement above is tantamount to blasphemy and calling our Lord Jesus a liar. I find this truly repugnant.

The good thief faithfully repented, the is the only way you or I will ever see paraidise and come into the presence of God.

Luke 23:43
KJ21
And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”
ASV
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
AMP
Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
AMPC
And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
BRG
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
CSB
And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
CSBA
And he said to him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
CEB
Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”
CJB
Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”
CEV
Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”
DARBY
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
DLNT
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.
DRA
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
ERV
Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
EASY
Jesus replied, ‘I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
EHV
Jesus said to him, “Amen I tell you: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
ESV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
ESVUK
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
EXB
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [C heaven or the presence of God].”
GNV
Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
GW
Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
GNT
Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”
HCSB
And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”
ICB
Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”
ISV
Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
PHILLIPS
And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”
JUB
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
AKJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
LSB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
LEB
And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
TLB
And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”
MSG
He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”
MEV
Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
MOUNCE
And Jesus said to him, “In solemn truth I tell you: today you will be with me in · paradise.”
NOG
Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
NABRE
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NASB
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NASB1995
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
NCB
Jesus said to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NCV
Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NET
And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIRV
Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIV
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NIVUK
Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
NKJV
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NLV
Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
NLT
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NMB
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.
NRSVA
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
NRSVACE
He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
NRSVCE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
NRSVUE
He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
NTFE
“I’m telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “you’ll be with me in paradise, this very day.”
OJB
And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.
RGT
Then Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
RSV
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
RSVCE
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
TLV
Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
VOICE
Jesus: I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.
WEB
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
WE
And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'
WYC
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
YLT
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

There are no commas in the original transcripts, the translators took the liberty to add them which changes the context.

For example:

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” which lands much different than

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus never went to Paradise that day when He said this, He instead, died on the Cross for our sins and rested in His tomb on the Sabbath and rose the first day back to His Fathers work and did not ascend back to Paradise until 40 days later. So this one comma does not harmonize with all the rest of Scripture.

The Liturgist · May 27, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
There are no commas in the original transcripts, the translators took the liberty to add them which changes the context.

For example:

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” which lands much different than

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Jesus never went to Paradise that day when He said He instead, died on the Cross for our sins and rested in His tomb on the Sabbath and rose the first day back to His Fathers work and did not ascend back to Paradise until 40 days later. So this one comma does not harmonize with all the rest of Scripture.

ALL the translators?

Prove it from the original Greek perhaps or explain why the SDAs still use these translations if they are defective.

SabbathBlessings · May 27, 2026

The Liturgist said:
ALL the translators?

Prove it from the original Greek perhaps or explain why the SDAs still use these translations if they are defective.

Still doesn;t change the facts- no commas in the original and Jesus never went to paradise "today" when He said that- unless you consider being crucified on the Cross for our sins paradise. This understanding of this one comma goes against the testimony of Jesus Himself John 20:17

The Liturgist · May 27, 2026

SabbathBlessings said:
Still doesn;t change the facts- no commas in the original and Jesus never went to paradise "today" when He said that- unless you consider being crucified on the Cross for our sins paradise. This understanding of this one comma goes against the testimony of Jesus Himself John 20:17

The problem with your argument is twofold, firstly, that the comma is informed by the original Greek (which uses grammatical cases to control prepositional structure, like Latin but very different from English), and there’s also the issue that you are ignoring the eternality and deity of Christ, in that what Christ was doing on that day in His incarnation is irrelevant, since God in Paradise exists outside of linear time, a concept Adventists seem to struggle with (the idea that God experiences time like us is literally contrary to the idea of God being eternal and is also refuted by John 1:2 - Christ created time, since time is a thing and all things were made by Christ as the Divine Logos.

SabbathBlessings · May 27, 2026

The Liturgist said:
The problem with your argument is twofold, firstly, that the comma is informed by the original Greek (which uses grammatical cases to control prepositional structure, like Latin but very different from English), and there’s also the issue that you are ignoring the eternality and deity of Christ, in that what Christ was doing on that day in His incarnation is irrelevant, since God in Paradise exists outside of linear time, a concept Adventists seem to struggle with (the idea that God experiences time like us is literally contrary to the idea of God being eternal and is also refuted by John 1:2 - Christ created time, since time is a thing and all things were made by Christ as the Divine Logos.

I think your argument goes beyond what the text itself actually says. The issue is not whether Christ is eternal or divine — I agree He is and never stated otherwise, so I wish you would consider your own standard you place on others, that you do this for yourself. There is no struggle on my end, the Text is plain, when we reconcile all of the Scriptures as we are told Isa28:10

The earliest Greek manuscripts had no punctuation at all, so the comma placement is a translator’s decision, not something directly inspired in the manuscript itself. Also, the phrase “Truly I say to you today” is consistent with a known Hebrew idiom used for emphasis (compare passages in Deuteronomy where “I declare to you today” is used). So the discussion is about syntax and context, not denying Christ’s deity.

Christ Himself said after the resurrection in John 20:17, "I have not yet ascended to My Father,” it cannot be clearer than this. Jesus was not in paradise at the Cross- He was there as our Sacrificial Lamb.

I am OK agreeing to disagree- all will get sorted out in His time.

HARK! · May 27, 2026

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF

MarkRohfrietsch · May 27, 2026

Lost Witness said:
Often in the word Of God when it speaks of the dead being raised it means being brought spiritually back to life…

No, both "spiritual" and "physical"; Was Jesus only raised in spirt? All mankind will be raised physically on the last day; those repentant Christians by faith will be aquitted by the blood of Jesus; those who have not repented (yes, those that think their works can save them) will also be raised, but the faithful will be inhabiting Zion, the new Jeruselem, the rest will be eternally seperated from God. Like Lazarus and the rich man.

ViaCrucis · May 27, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Soul sleep is not a sustainable doctrine, neither is the idea of different resurrections for different groups of people.

Now it is the case that poorly catechized Christians who put too much emphasis on “getting to heaven” rather than the Resurrection as the ultimate eschatological destination have engaged in what is in many respects actually a very frightening neo-Docetic eschatology if one thinks about it.

One of the my first theological epiphanies (that sounds more grandiose than I want it to sound) was about the resurrection of the dead. Growing up I never really was taught that the dead would rise (bodily). This was, at least in part, because of the doctrine of the Rapture which I was raised with. To be clear, I was definitely taught that the Lord was raised bodily, but I didn't have a theological foundation to connect that to anything eschatological.

If I may share a personal anecdote. My (public) high school offered a class for seniors that covered a half semester on current events, and a half semester about world religions. In high school I had a reputation as "the church kid" in a very non-religious environment. So it wasn't weird when our teacher turned to me to offer a Christian perspective on the importance of Jesus' resurrection in Christianity. The problem? I didn't have an answer. It's not that it was embarrassing to be the token Evangelical Christian kid in the class and I couldn't answer a question that basic, it's that I should have had an answer and yet somehow growing up in the Church, years of Sunday School, Youth Group, and a dozen different Bible studies and I didn't have an answer for something basic as that. All my religious education had prepared me to lead others through the Four Spiritual Laws, but I couldn't tell anyone why Jesus rising from the dead mattered.

This, itself, didn't light a fire under my feet. But it was one of many which, ultimately, did. And it was only after high school, when I started having my Dispensationalism challenged, and looking at the historical, patristic, teaching on resurrection that I finally had an answer to that question.

When you are raised on nothing more than a pseudo/quasi-docetic "going to heaven when I die" perspective, resurrection is actually rather weird. Jesus rising from the dead matters, but the why it matters lacks oomph. It was only as I began to read the Scriptures much more seriously, and plunge myself into historical theology (e.g. the Fathers and the Reformers) that I was able to understand that resurrection isn't just some tacked-on Christian dogma, it's ground zero for God's purpose for the universe.

ViaCrucis · May 28, 2026

MarkRohfrietsch said:
No, both "spiritual" and "physical"; Was Jesus only raised in spirt? All mankind will be raised physically on the last day; those repentant Christians by faith will be aquitted by the blood of Jesus; those who have note repented (yes, those that think their works can save them) will also be raised, but the faithful will be inhabiting Zion, the new Jeruselem, the rest will be eternally seperated from God. Like Lazarus and the rich man.

Amen!

Isaiah 26:19
"Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead."

The Liturgist · May 28, 2026

ViaCrucis said:
One of the my first theological epiphanies (that sounds more grandiose than I want it to sound) was about the resurrection of the dead. Growing up I never really was taught that the dead would rise (bodily).

For me to complain about you sounding grandiloquent would be an act of staggering hypocrisy!

And in my case, despite going to an LCMS school, the actual eschatological sequence was not clearly explained, so I did not understand the difference between Heaven and the World to Come. Rather they focused very heavily on the Law vs. Gospel dichotomy and on the whole the religious education aspect was not helpful to my Christian formation; note this was not very long after the Seminex period, and I suspect things have improved considerably. It was still a very good school, and the elderly Lutheran ladies who looked after the preschool and made sure the elementary school boys who liked to visit with them such as myself got some of the cookies they were baking for the little one succeeded at imparting Christian virtue where the formal text was less successful. Also the weekly chapel was very good and we were required to wear a dress shirt and tie for that (this being an American pre-K-6 school in the 80s uniforms were not on the menu. There was one boy from the preschool who was just two years old who nonetheless was old enough to have a favorite hymn and everyone loved him and we made a point to sing it every chapel. It was in the chapel where I first learned about liturgical colors as well, since I found myself curious why the glass around the altar lamp occasionally changed color along with the paraments, so I suppose we can thank your denomination for my liturgical preoccupation.

Speaking of my Lutheran schoolmates please pray for my friend Paul, the last time i spoke with him was shortly before the pandemic and his marriage had failed due to alcoholism on his part, and his home life during childhood was not great, and I haven’t heard from him lately and am a bit worried about him.

At any rate in my childhood having not realized the nature of the Eschaton I used to be terrified about the prospect of linear time continuing indefinitely. I found myself trapped in a state of horror at the prospect of eternal existence or ceasing to exist. My bishop recently pointed out to me that the perpetual linear state that I dreaded was basically Hell.

What St. Athanasius meant, I think, as a theolougomemna, in saying God became man so that man could become god, is that by grace, through Theosis, we have the chance to be allowed eternal life, thus, to quote Athanasius, becoming by grace what Christ is by nature. That is to say, no longer being subject to the constraints of time as we know it, which God created and which God is the master over.

This is why I’m also particularly opposed to posts that I see from some people which seem to presume God is subject to linear time (if that were the case, if God existed in time and did not create it, God would be, I would argue, a demiurge, and the actual god would be time, and since we know that space and time are unified through very solid physics, and since we say God created the universe (and thus the physical space everything occupies) the status of spacetime as a creature of Christ our God seems very clear. Which is why the argument that the Good Thief could not dine with Christ in paradise immediately because Christ was harrowing Hell and then reposing in the tomb frustrates me, because it ignores the fact that while, in His incarnation, Christ was doing that, Christ is God, and as such has always been in Heaven, even while also being here on Earth, for in His incarnation he remained fully God while becoming fully man, without change, confusion, separation or division of his humanity and divinity.

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