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Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

Blueprints

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I see nothing in Revelation for my part that would refer to North America or to any events in the 18th century; the relevance of these 18th century events would be immense for someone born in the “burned over district” of New York in the early 19th century, but from a more global Christian perspective, referring to odd weather conditions in the late 18th century is extremely specific and also extremely obscure
What you "see" is not really relevant to what Revelation itself says in its symbols. Interpretation is not based upon "you" (or even "me" or "them", since it is based upon God's interpretation in the Bible itself (Gen. 40:8; Isa. 28:10,13 KJB). Again, you keep adding in 'globalist' mindset to passages which are not involving global events. That is not in the texts. The very book of Revelation 12-13 deals with specific nations, and through the related structure (previous response), shows their connections.

So, let's start with a basic foundation from the word.

A beast, in symbolism, in scripture represents a kingdom, nation, state authority, dominion, or politically organized body (Psa. 74:13,14; Dan. 7:6,12,17,23, 8:4; Isa. 5:29, 27:1,12; Eze. 17:3,7, 29:3,4,5, 32:2,3,4,9, 34:8,13; Jer. 4:7, 48:40, 49:22, 50:17; Joe. 1:6; Rev. 13:1, 16:10, 17:3,7,8,11,12, 19:19,20, 20:4,10 KJB).​

Do you agree, or reject that foundational position? Do I say so, or did scripture say so?

Simply saying "odd weather" does not do those events, I listed, justice, and merely is biased downplaying of their significance in history (which I also provided from several sources). The events were not obscure, but witnessed and experienced by a whole mass amount of people in those locations.

When you say "global Christian perspective", are you including all forms of catholicism and apostate protestantism?
 
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Blueprints

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Additionally, its very difficult to regard events in the 18th century as the beginning of the Eschaton described in Revelation in that the majority of all humans who have ever lived (a total population estimated at 161 billion, most of whom died in infancy) to live to at least the age of 30 were born after 1951.
Who said that the 18th century was "the beginning of the Eschaton described in Revelation"? Certainly, not I - ever. I showed that the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets are all historic, and begin in AD 31 and continued from there. I even specifically stated that the events before the Great Lisbon earthquake (Rev. 6:12) involved time going back to AD 538 (1,260) and AD 508 (1,290, 1,335) during the period of the great tribulation, and those martyrs who died under the 5th seal (Rev. 6:9-11). The Seals before that in the times before those unto AD 31.

According to Revelation itself, it is historic:

Rev_1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;​

Past (to John), present (to John) and future (to John).

The amount of the population has nothing to do with how God presents the information. It nowhere says in the Revelation that such and such an event requires a certain amount of people to be fulfilled. Likewise, the age of those persons are pretty much irrelevant also, since even a 6 yr old to aged hoary head can understand what God is saying, by the Holy Ghost, prayer and line upon line. Each portion of the Revelation has a relevancy to that specific generation, but it also has materials that each generation can learn from that came before, and until the last generation, each generation will also have something to study for their future also.
 
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The Liturgist

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That is not the Seventh-day Adventist position. We do not adhere to "private interpretation" (2 Pet. 1:20 KJB). God, in the word itself, interprets His own words, line upon line (Gen. 40:8; Isa. 28:10,13). In other words, the Bible is interpreted internally, without 'me', 'you', or 'them' ever having existed at all. It says what is says whether 'you', 'me' or 'them' ever read it. So it is not "predicated upon a chiliastic interpretation of Revelation". The very inherent structure of Revelation (see pages 5-38 - Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ) is built into itself, and the parallelisms define each place.

If what you claimed was correct, we would expect to find documentary and archaeological evidence of early Christians adhering to the Adventist interpretation, in particular, faith groups that are cited by Ellen G. White in the Great Controversy as being proto-Adventist, but when we look at the evidence concerning these groups, we find that almost none of them accepted the Nicene Creed or agreed with it doctrinally (the Paulicans, Bogomils and Albigensians certainly did not), which is a categorical problem, since acceptance of the doctrines in the Creed is a prerequisite to normative Christianity, and what is more, none of them could be verified as having worshipped on the Sabbath in preference to worshipping on the First Day, and many adhered to strange or unusual doctrines, except for the Waldensians, who were for the most part proto-Protestant (except that they taught that any righteous Christian male could confect the Sacraments, which reflects both a Sacramental theology alien to Adventism and also has a Donatist component and a crypto-Pelagian component in that it presupposes that such a thing as a righteous Christian male exists and that the righteousness of clergy is relevant with regards to sacramental efficacy. At any rate, whatever the distinctives of the Waldensians were, their beliefs were close enough to the mainstream Protestantism so that they later joined with the Calvinists in Switzerland before later adopting a more Arminian-Wesleyan approach to soteriology (and are now the largest Protestant denomination in Italy).

So at any rate, since we can’t find any historical examples of people adhering to the SDA interpretation prior to the 19th century, and since systematics using pure exegesis without regard to Patristics such as Karl Barth wound up with an exegesis that looks more or less like other Protestant systems of interpretation (and Karl Barth was extremely pure), and also since Martin Luther and John Calvin, while they did care about Patristics, also did subject everything to sola scriptura testing and wound up with Lutheranism and Calvinism, and also, well, the other major problem is that Adventism has a bit of an elephant in the room in that you regard the writings of Ellen G. White to be inspired and infallible prophecy. Naturally, this will shape your interpretation of Scripture in the same way the Roman Catholic belief since Vatican I in Papal Infallibility will shape their interpretation around those issues where Popes made a statement using the formula required to make it an infallible declaration of faith. If the writings of Ellen G. White are inspired prophecy, they cease to be of “private interpretation” according to Adventist interpretation of that verse*, which creates a chicken and egg problem.

Out of curiosity by the way, do you understand that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and Assyrian churches are historically separate and distinct from the Roman Catholic Churches and were not and are not under the control of the Bishop of Rome?

* The Patristic interpretation of 2 Peter is that no prophecy may be interpreted independently from the Church, and that no prophecy is an exposition of itself (indeed the Syriac translation of the Bible actually renders the verse in this way, that no prophecy contains its own exposition, that is to say, no prophecy is self-explanatory, thus, the Church has to discern what the prophecy means and in some cases it might not be knowable with certainty until the event itself).

The idea that 2 Peter is merely mandating exegesis is interesting, but regarding this point, while I am all for exegesis, there are numerous instances of Adventists following an interpretation that seems to traditional Christians such as myself to be extremely eisegetical, for example, Memorialism is insisted upon based on the phrase “this do ye in remembrance of me” in 1 Corinthians 11, however, in the original Greek anamnesis does not mean “memorial” but rather “anamnesis”, that is ot say, a sense of recapitulaion or participation in the prior moment, and in 1 Corinthians 10 St. Paul makes it clear that bread and wine are the Body and Blood, and additionally in the corresponding institution narratives in Matthew and Mark, they lack the phrase “do this in remembrance of me,” and thus an interpretation that involves our Lord invalidating his statement “This is my body” by declaring it subsequently to be a memorial is not sustainable, because the phrase relied upon to negate a literal physical or spiritual interpretation of This is my body or This is my blood are absent from Matthew and Mark and only present with regards to the Blood of our Lord in Luke, and are also absent from the Eucharistic discussion in John ch. 6.

Another example of Adventist eisegesis is over Tradition. Routinely traditional Christians are accused of following man-made tradition on the basis of Mark 7:13, but if read in context, our Lord is in this pericope and related pericopes in Matthew and Luke clearly talking about the Oral Torah of the Pharisees which was at the time being written down by the Scribes and would later be revised into the Mishnah and form the basis for the Talmud and the Rabinnical Jewish system after the destruction of the Temple and the various central authorities that Second Temple Judaism depended on for rulings on issues of Jewish law. Conversely, in 1 Corinthians 11:2, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 we are told to follow the tradition of the Apostles, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:37 to separate from those who do not (this passage also relates to Galatians 1:8-9.

I’ve also never seen any detailed Adventist exegesis of Galatians 3:15-5:15, and when I’ve complained about this, I’ve had 2 Peter quoted at me to the extent that St. Paul is prone to being misinterpreted. Yet paradoxically, if that’s the case, well, the Adventist Memorialist interpretation of the Eucharist rests on a reading of 1 Corinthians 11 which is not compatible with the direct parallel texts to 1 Corinthians 11 in the Gospels According to Mark and Matthew. Likewise, Colossians 2:8 is used to attack the traditional church, but when Colossians 2:16 is brought up with regards to the Sabbath, 2 Peter is again invoked regarding the Pauline epistles.

We also have the important issue of the identification by Adventists of Christ our True God with St. Michael the Archangel, which is not explicitly described in any Scripture and the problem is that our Lord cannot be God and an Angel, since angels are inherently created, literally being the messengers of God, whereas Christ is according to John 1:1-18 the Logos, the only begotten Son and Word of God, who is God, who created all things, who became flesh for our salvation, and in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily.

Additionally there’s also the problem of Adventists denying established aspects of the history of the early church, for example, the historical process of the development of the New Testament canon. It is a fact that there is no text prior to the 39th Paschal Encyclical written by St. Athanasius of Alexandria in 367 AD which says that only the 27 books we now identify as the New Testament should be used, no more, no less; all prior canonical documents either are missing books (such as 2 Peter, Jude, 2 John, 3 John, and especially the Apocalypse of St. John (Revelation) or add books such as the psuedeipgraphical Apocalypse of Peter and 1 Barnabas, or the spurious Epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans, or legitimate Patristic writings that the early church decided were important but not New Testament Scripture, such as 1 Clement and the Didascalia and the Shepherd of Hermas. And all fourth century manuscripts we have that contain a complete New Testament differ from the Athanasian canon, which is consistent with the scholarly view that it took about another century for this canon to be fully accepted through the Greek and Latin churches, and in the case of Syriac Aramaic speaking Christians, it was not until the early 6th century that these books had been translated and added to the West Syriac version of the Peshitta.

There are other problems as well, such as inaccurate claims about what Emperor Constantine did or did not do (for instance, it was not St. Constantine but St. Theodosius who, in 379, made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire, banning Paganism, Arianism and other false religions; I have not encountered any Adventist text that acknowledges the persecution of Nicene Christians by Arians who denied the deity of Christ and the Trinity between 336 AD and 386 AD (for this even continued into the reign of St. Theodosius in that while he was opposed to the Arians, the large numbers of Arian converts among the Lombards frightened him, and he felt compelled to try to turn over a Christian church in Milan to the Arians, which was prevented only by a vigil held in that church for several days by St. Ambrose of Milan, and fortunately, the Emperor blinked first, and the Arians did not in that case engage in an insurrection, but later Arians did sack Rome, repeatedly, and VIsigothic Arian tribes in North Africa later converted to Islam.
 
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The Liturgist

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Who said that the 18th century was "the beginning of the Eschaton described in Revelation"? Certainly, not I - ever. I showed that the 7 churches, 7 seals and 7 trumpets are all historic, and begin in AD 31 and continued from there. I even specifically stated that the events before the Great Lisbon earthquake (Rev. 6:12) involved time going back to AD 538 (1,260) and AD 508 (1,290, 1,335) during the period of the great tribulation, and those martyrs who died under the 5th seal (Rev. 6:9-11). The Seals before that in the times before those unto AD 31.

The word eschaton refers to the end of history; insofar as the entire history of the Church after Pentecost has occurred after 33 AD, well, that seems to be a bit of a problem with saying it began in 31 AD.
 
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Likewise, the age of those persons are pretty much irrelevant also, since even a 6 yr old to aged hoary head can understand what God is saying, by the Holy Ghost, prayer and line upon line.

If that’s true then why do you refuse them Baptism and Holy Communion?

@Ain't Zwinglian and @prodromos and @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch and I have repeatedly argued that children are, through the Holy Spirit, able to receive the faith and believe noetically and therefore the baptism of children and infants, aside from being indicated by Scripture (since there is no explicit instruction in the New Testament not to baptize infants and we also have no record of any sects in the early church refusing to baptize infants; we do have records of sects which did not baptize or celebrate the Eucharist (the Messalians) and of sects which baptized repeatedly (the Hydroparastae), but we have no documentary evidence of a refusal to engage in the baptism of infants and young children prior to the Anabaptists in the 16th century, whose beliefs were objected to vigorously by Lutherans, Calvinists and other early Protestants on the basis of Sola Scriptura testing.
 
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Blueprints

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And these dates are actually much less significant than Adventists think they are relevant to the strength of the Papacy and related issues.
No, they are not "much less significant". They perfectly align with the actual foretold events. These things have been documented for quite some time. The Papacy, being what it is, mimicks the life of Christ in the centuries.

- Single Page (Dual Sided) Charts - Prophecy Print Outs : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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Blueprints

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If that’s true then why do you refuse them Baptism and Holy Communion? ...
The church does not. I have seen 6yr olds baptized, and welcomed to the 'table'. It depends on the child and the parents and the eldership, if they determine the child is able, articulable, and willing.
 
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Blueprints

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The word eschaton refers to the end of history; insofar as the entire history of the Church after Pentecost has occurred after 33 AD, well, that seems to be a bit of a problem with saying it began in 31 AD.
Peter, John and Paul all spoke of the "last days", and it refers to the final portion of the great cosmic week of God, the last 2-3,000 years. 2000 years from Jesus Christ and the final 1000 years to come.

See - The Redemption Of The Creation 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

AWHN - Bible - 7000 Years.jpg


Christians have believed this from the beginning - (It will DL here) - https://archive.org/download/the-re.../7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel.odt

So "eschaton" is perfectly in alignment with the last 2K years, even from AD 31. The words does not mean merely the final few years of this earth's history before the second Advent of Jesus Christ.
 
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Blueprints

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If that’s true then why do you refuse them Baptism and Holy Communion?

@Ain't Zwinglian and @prodromos and @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch and I have repeatedly argued that ... through the Holy Spirit, ... the baptism of ... infants,...
Infants are not allowed, incapable, and not found as such "baptized" in scripture. 'catholicism' simply makes it up as they go and kept on with it in their tradition due to their incorrect doctrines (such as "Original Sin (Dogma)"). That is a whole other discussion, of which this thread is not about, but I will however post a response here, and leave it as is, copied from my Discord server.

Should Infants / Babies be baptized? What does the Bible say about this question?

It is not enough to have a long-standing 'tradition', for age does not ever sanctify an error, nor does majority opinion. God's word is not a democracy, but is instead final authority over all man's ideas (Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11 KJB). Every instance in the New Testament of Baptism, no infants / babies are present in any example. There are some people who read into certain phrases, such as "household" (Act. 10:7, 16:15; (Rom. 16:10-11); 1 Cor. 1:16; Gal. 6:10; Eph. 2:19; Php. 4:22; 2 Tim. 4:19 KJB) and by it teach that infants / babies are included, but that would go counter to the rest of the teaching on baptism throughout scripture.

In order to be baptized, a person must consciously choose to accept the offer of God in Christ Jesus, the Gospel (by hearing it spoken, or read from the scriptures), and repent of their sins, confessing their sins, and calling on the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, and make profession of faith (none of which infants / babies can do):
  • Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
  • Mar_1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
  • Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
  • Luk_7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
  • Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    • Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    • Act_2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
  • Act_8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    • Act_8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
    • Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
    • Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
    • Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
    • Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
    • Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    • Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    • Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
    • Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
  • Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
    • Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
    • Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
    • Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    • Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
  • Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    • Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    • Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    • Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    • Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
  • Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
    • Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
    • Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
    • Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    • Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    • Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    • Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    • Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
  • Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
    • Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    • Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
    • Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
    • Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
  • Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    • Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    • Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
  • Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
    • Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
    • Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
    • Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Infants / babies do not know the difference between good and evil, cannot confess their sins, do not yet understand the Gospel, cannot repent, nor arise (stand), nor confess or call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, let alone make a conscious decision to be baptized, and most would not even remember being dunked in water later in life.
  • Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
  • Isa_7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
  • Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Infants / babies do things from nature (eating, sleeping, crying, laughing, evacuating), and have to learn as they grow to make conscious decisions.
  • Pro_22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
God winks at ignorance and waits for the right time to share with them when they are old enough to understand:
  • Ecc_3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
  • Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now, back to the word "household":
  • HEBREW: H1004, "בּית", "bayith" - house, those of a house (including servants), family, + a range of meaning.
    • BDB:
      • "1) house
        • 1a) house, dwelling habitation
        • 1b) shelter or abode of animals
        • 1c) human bodies (figuratively)
        • 1d) of Sheol
        • 1e) of abode of light and darkness
        • 1f) of land of Ephraim
      • 2) place
      • 3) receptacle
      • 4) home, house as containing a family
      • 5) household, family
        • 5a) those belonging to the same household
        • 5b) family of descendants, descendants as organized body
      • 6) household affairs
      • 7) inwards (metaphorically)
      • 8) temple
      • 9) on the inside
      • 10) within"
  • KOINE GREEK: G3614 - "οἰκία", "oikia" - house, those of a house (including servants), family + a range of meaning.
    • Thayers Lexicon:
    • "1) a house
      • 1a) an inhabited edifice, a dwelling
      • 1b) the inmates of a house, the family
      • 1c) property, wealth, goods"
  • KOINE GREEK:G3624 - "οἶκος", "oikos" - house, those of a house (including servants), family + a range of meaning
    • Thayers Lexicon:
    • "1) a house
      • 1a) an inhabited house, home
      • 1b) any building whatever
        • 1b1) of a palace
        • 1b2) the house of God, the tabernacle
      • 1c) any dwelling place
        • 1c1) of the human body as the abode of demons that possess it
        • 1c2) of tents, and huts, and later, of the nests, stalls, lairs, of animals
        • 1c3) the place where one has fixed his residence, one’s settled abode, domicile
      • 2) the inmates of a house, all the persons forming one family, a household
        • 2a) the family of God, of the Christian Church, of the church of the Old and New Testaments
      • 3) stock, family, descendants of one"
Look at some of the uses of the word "household", but notice
  • Gen_18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his householdafter him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
    • This text shows that those of "his [Abraham's] children" are distinct from those of "his [Abraham's] household".
  • Gen_47:24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.
    • This text, like Gen. 18:19 before it, shows that the "households" is distinct from "little ones".
  • 1Sa_27:3 And David dwelt with Achish at Gath, he and his men, every man with his household, even David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal's wife.
    • In this text, in the "household"" was "David with his two wives".
  • 2Sa_16:2 And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses be for the king's household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink.
    • In this text those of the household were old enough to own, and ride "asses".
  • Job_1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
    • In this text, the reference is to Job's servants in his employ / ownership.
  • Mat_24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
  • Luk_12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
    • In these texts, the "household" belongs to Christ Jesus, and sets a "faithful and wise servant" over it, to specifically give to that "household" "meat (portion of meat) in due season". Now the Bible is clear, as "meat" (heavy substance of food; Rom. 14:20; 1 Cor. 10:3; Heb. 5:14 KJB) is not for 'babes', but those that are grown, while "milk" is for babes (1 Cor. 3:1-2; Heb. 5:12 KJB). Natural to spiritual (1 Cor. 15:46 KJB).
The entire point of this is to demonstrate that just because the word "household" is used in regards certain texts which are associated with baptism, does not mean that infants / babies are baptized. Imagining (and that is all it would be, absent of any clear text in the mouth of two or three witnesses) such a thing is not evidence, but wishful thinking. Those systems which teach & practice infant / baby baptism (paedobaptism) are in error, and are ruining the opportunity for many to later in life make the decision to be baptised scripturally, for in their adult life they will think that they are already baptized when they are not, and may even refuse when approached on the subject. God winks at ignorance, "but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Act. 17:30 KJB)
 
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Blueprints

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... As far as I can tell no prophecies of Ellen G. White refer to the Orthodox and she did not consider our existence or our contribution to church history in writing The Great Controversy or other books, and appears to have attributed several things we did, such as the Council of Nicaea, to the Church of Rome (was she aware there were only two Papal legates at Nicaea, and the remaining bishops were Greek Orthodox? Or that the main driving force at the council was not St. Constantine but St. Athanasius of Alexandria?) ...
This is generally because 'catholicism' is 'catholicism', and Rome was the origin of it, and makes no real distinction between the variations of it, except that it counts the 'eastern catholics' as the daughters of their Mother, the Roman Heirarchy.
You can see The Two Republics by A. T. Jones - SDA A T Jones The Two Republics : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Another work you can see is Benjamin G. Wilkinson's - Truth Triumphant - Doctrine Bible Benjamin G Wilkinson Truth Triumphant : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Acts of the Apostles, page 487.3

"... From this terrible persecution Paul was spared, for soon after his release he had left Rome. This last interval of freedom he diligently improved in laboring among the churches. He sought to establish a firmer union between the Greek and the Eastern churches and to fortify the minds of the believers against the false doctrines that were creeping in to corrupt the faith. ..." - The Acts of the Apostles

Many of the doctrines & practices of the 'eastern churches' are simply derivatives of the Roman.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is generally because 'catholicism' is 'catholicism', and Rome was the origin of it, and makes no real distinction between the variations of it, except that it counts the 'eastern catholics' as the daughters of their Mother, the Roman Heirarchy.
Y

The problem with that statement is that the sui juris Eastern Catholic churches are not Eastern Orthodox churches and have only been around for around 800 years or so.

In contrast, the Eastern Orthodox church, the Oriental Orthodox church and the Assyrian Church are as old as the Roman Catholic Church and were never under the control of the Roman church.

Please get your facts straight concerning the history of our denomination before spreading misinformation. I speak for @prodromos @jas3 @HTacianas @FenderTL5 @dzheremi and all other Eastern Christian members in this point.

It would appear you were unaware that the current version of the Nicene Creed, the one which was adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381, was adopted at a council consisting only of Greek Orthodox bishops without any Roman Catholic bishops being present?
 
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The Liturgist

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Acts of the Apostles, page 487.3

"... From this terrible persecution Paul was spared, for soon after his release he had left Rome. This last interval of freedom he diligently improved in laboring among the churches. He sought to establish a firmer union between the Greek and the Eastern churches and to fortify the minds of the believers against the false doctrines that were creeping in to corrupt the faith. ..." - The Acts of the Apostles
Many of the doctrines & practices of the 'eastern churches' are simply derivatives of the Roman.


If you’re going to claim that our doctrines are derived from Roman Catholic doctrines, I will need to see a more compelling argument than links to polemical sites on Ellen G. White and quotes from the Acts of the Apostles which have nothing to do with the Eastern churches.

Were you aware that St. Athanasius, who defended the Trinity against Arianism and was an Alexandrian Christian, was Orthodox? And what is more, the Roman church was able to nothing to prevent him from being imprisoned and exiled to Trier and to other parts of the Empire starting in 336.

The books your citing are not credible academic sources - please cite only sources that are ecumenically accepted, for example, the Oxford History of Christian Worship, the Cambride History of Christianity, the Blackwell Companion to Eastern Christianity and other scholarly texts (for example, regarding the Eastern Orthodox Church, the book “The Orthodox Church” by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware” is a good start.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Every instance in the New Testament of Baptism, no infants / babies are present in any example.

Infants / babies do not know the difference between good and evil, cannot confess their sins, do not yet understand the Gospel, cannot repent, nor arise (stand), nor confess or call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, let alone make a conscious decision to be baptized, and most would not even remember being dunked in water later in life.
I do not understand this reasoning. Credobaptists believe in the Age of Accountability, if the child dies before the age of accountability they immediately receive a one way ticket to heaven without being baptized, without confessing sins, who do not understanding the Gospel,

Why credobaptists criticize paedobaptists is bewildering. From the Credobaptist standpoint, it doesn't matter if a infant is baptized or not.... and if they die....they go to heaven.
  • Who cares if one below the age of accountability is baptized with Milk of Magnesia....they still go to heaven.
  • Who cares if a child doesn't have faith, they still go to heaven.
  • Who cares if a baby is baptized with the name zing, bing and zap....they still go to heaven.
  • Who cares if the Easter bunny baptizes them....if they die they still go to heaven.

Everybody gets to go to heaven who is under the Age of Accountability. Most bizzare that the unregenerate inherit the Kingdom of Heaven...but such is credobaptist theology.
 
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Blueprints

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Blueprints

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I do not understand this reasoning.
I see that. I am not being derogatory. Not every infant who dies will receive a resurrection unto eternal life (think of all those who died in the flood; &c.). The scripture speaks of the sanctifying or evil influence upon any child, and the responsibility of the parents upon those children for good or evil, salvation or loss. Think of the infants of the Exodus who were saved out of Egypt because of the decision of their parents. Think of those infants who were not saved out of Egypt because of the decisions of their parents. Many 'first born' (old and young) died. As for those infants in the care of those faithful parents, Jesus Christ's baptism, and life, is theirs also.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Peter, John and Paul all spoke of the "last days", and it refers to the final portion of the great cosmic week of God, the last 2-3,000 years. 2000 years from Jesus Christ and the final 1000 years to come.

See - The Redemption Of The Creation 7000 Years And The Everlasting Gospel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

View attachment 379774

Christians have believed this from the beginning - (It will DL here) - https://archive.org/download/the-redemption-of-the-creation-7000-years-and-the-everlasting-gospel_202301/7000 Year Plan Of The Everlasting Gospel.odt

So "eschaton" is perfectly in alignment with the last 2K years, even from AD 31. The words does not mean merely the final few years of this earth's history before the second Advent of Jesus Christ.
the great cosmic week of God,
Where is that found in Scripture??
 
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The Liturgist

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People who die, remain in their graves until their respective resurrection. No one goes to Heaven upon their decease. - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Soul sleep is not a sustainable doctrine, neither is the idea of different resurrections for different groups of people.

Now it is the case that poorly catechized Christians who put too much emphasis on “getting to heaven” rather than the Resurrection as the ultimate eschatological destination have engaged in what is in many respects actually a very frightening neo-Docetic eschatology if one thinks about it.
 
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The Liturgist

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Where is that found in Scripture??

Its not.

On the other hand Genesis 1 very clearly prophesies the events of Holy Week, specifically the crucifixion on Great and Holy Friday, in which Christ remade man in his image on the Cross, the repose of Christ in the tomb on Great and Holy Saturday, and the Resurrection (Let there be light!).

That is not to exclude all literal interpretations of Genesis ch. 1 although personally I am not a young Earth creationist.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Now it is the case that poorly catechized Christians who put too much emphasis on “getting to heaven” rather than the Resurrection as the ultimate eschatological destination have engaged in what is in many respects actually a very frightening neo-Docetic eschatology if one thinks about it.
This is most certainly true.