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Disengaging? No, what I said was it was shared already. Here is the post
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
New not renewed Covenant
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Disengaging? No, what I said was it was shared already. Here is the post
I'll quote the NASB since it's a bit more literal (these are not "my translations") but I'll highlight the word in protest since NASB also uses obsolete
Heb 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first [obsolete/old]. But whatever is becoming [obsolete/old] and growing old is about to disappear.
the verb root is παλαιόω = to make old, declare obsolete, age, wear out. the text uses 2 different forms however.
the latter is "becoming-old" which seems to be the definition you are drawn to
the former is πεπαλαίωκεν or "He-has-made-old" [the first].
-παλαίω- is the stem, which means something old or ancient (and you agree with)
the prefix however πε- is the perfect tense showing a completed action. so πε-παλαίω- carries a meaning of a completed old.
-κ- is another perfect tense marker
-εν is the third person maker
so together carries a meaning of he has made old, he has rendered obsolete, he has worn out. The interesting part is it does not age by itself, but it is a completed action of making old performed on it by Christ. Christ has made old the covenant. Obsolete is a bit specific more abstract word, and a very English way of putting it, but once you break down the word, it's what the meaning is in practice.
I speak a different language (Melayu), and it translates it saying in the sense of "already make old/outdated. Some translations use the word for old some use the word of outdated. Both carry the sense this is a completed action already performed on the object.
I'm happy to leave it more literal "he has made old" but I fail to see how that changes the meaning since it's not old because of years gone by, but it is old because Christ made it old, in this sense it is ordained old, with the new being presented along side of it also ordained new. Obsolete/replacement are images that naturally come to mind but I get if you perhaps have an allergy towards "abolish" language. To be clear, Jesus is not abolishing, he is making old, but he also makes new and shows a better way.
This reminds me of the language in Rom 7:6 "we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit" again an aggregated word and loaded "we-have-been-released" (κατηργήθημεν) and like Heb 8:13 we do not do the releasing. We were made free from law by Christ, Christ is the one doing the releasing and he is the one also that makes it old. "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit"
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Soyeong
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I don't see how you can read Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and think that it is speaking about the present tense when it repeatedly speaks about what will happen.
What do you see as the difference between being of the Torah and being followers of it? The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10) regardless of whether or not the Mosaic Covenant has vanished since then.
Everything that God has commanded in the Torah teaches us how to walk in the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so that is also the way that we get to live when he is living in us, which is living by faith both of and in the Son.
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We walk through the Spirit by the Spirit not by the Torah. It is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.
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We are a new creature. Old things have passed away, behold all is new and of God. Know you not that we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and have risen with Him in His resurrection that the old man be destroyed that hence forth we do not serve sin. For He that is dead is freed from sin. So let's walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh, that the righteousness of the Law (Torah) be fulfilled in us.
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Yes old not obsolete as was shown to you.
Why old and not obsolete?
Because it is ready to vanish away, not vanished.
Why Because by the Law is the knowledge of sin and there is still a need in the world for the knowledge of sin because not all who profess are and there are still many who need to come to Christ.
If we walk in the Spirit we are not sinning.
So what need is there of the law. The Law is for transgressors.
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old is not enough and lacks transparency of the text, if you disagree with "obsolete" that's fine, but you need to take more time to unpack the context more and it can't be left at "old". We also need to appreciate that "obsolete" may still be a reasonable translation for "πεπαλαίωκεν" and no perfect word exists (old is certainly not it either) as each translated word carries a drifting nuance. Call it what you want, but it is a completed action of "making old" by Christ. I think obsolete captures this, at least for the first 2 instances of the word in the text, where the latter is "become-old". You've collapsed the meaning to the latter use and have ignored former 2 instances.
I am well studied
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