Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

WilliamLhk said:

Jesus told us to watch for the signs of His coming Parousia, and the great tribulation includes many of those signs.

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For which reason seeking to be raptured before it would make no sense.

The Liturgist said:

For which reason seeking to be raptured before it would make no sense.

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Correct, prophetically-speaking. But when did people ever believe the prophets?

The Jews did not believe in a suffering savior to come, either. The Jews did not believe what Jeremiah told them would befall Jerusalem.

People believe in what they want to hear. That is why pre-trib has sold so many books and movies. Pre-wrath, not.

BPPLEE said:

If we are spared from the wrath of God then the rapture will come in the middle of the 7 years. There will be 3 and 1/2 years of tribulations and 3 and 1/2 years of the wrath of God.

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Can you address what I said in post #16? Why would we need to be taken off of the earth any time before the earth is burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night at which point those in spiritual darkness will have "sudden destruction" come upon them from which "they shall not escape" (2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thess 5:2-3)? You don't seem to understand that the rapture occurs on the same day as the wrath described in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs. Paul speaks of both happening on the same day in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

BobRyan said:

The text gives an order,,
1. The first resurrection
2. then the 1000 years
3. the rest of the dead come to life AFTER the 1000 years completed
4. They are judged and cast into the lake of fire

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You can make a rational, but erroneous, argument for the first two points. The third, not. Rev. 20 says nothing about "the rest of the dead." Nor anything about the SDA-claimed totally-depopulated earth during the Millennium. How do you get "nations which are in the four corners of" an uninhabited earth going to war against earthly saints??

WilliamLhk said:

You can make a rational, but erroneous, argument for the first two points. The third, not. Rev. 20 says nothing about "the rest of the dead." Nor anything about the SDA-claimed totally-depopulated earth during the Millennium. How do you get "nations which are in the four corners of" an uninhabited earth going to war against earthly saints??

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The depopulated Earth appears to be an SDA-specific doctrine, like the Investigative Judgement. I haven’t been able to find any Patristic sources who discussed it, even the small number of ante-Nicene fathers who were Chiliasts (St. Justin Martyr, St. Papias, St. Irenaeus of Lyons).

*Regarding which, it should be noted that neither the Eastern Orthodox, nor the Oriental Orthodox, nor the Assyrian Church of the East, nor the Anglicans, Lutherans or other liturgical Protestants has never entertained (nor have the Roman Catholics prior to Papal Infallibility being dogmatized at the First Vatican Council in the 19th century) the possibility that the writings of a saint, even a church father, other than the inspired writings of the Church Fathers and certain material received by the entire church such as the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 and the ecumenical councils, could be entirely infallible and without error, so the fact that there are early church fathers who were in error on this one point does not invalidate the rest of their corpus, especially since the early church itself did not reject the idea of Chiliasm until the Council of Constantinople (a local council of the Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople that was received ecumenically, unlike Nicaea; of the first four ecumenical councils it is the only one with no representation from Latin fathers from the West or Syriac fathers.

TYPE – Calvary & Cross​

• Jesus dies, and an Earthquake (1st) occurs – Matthew 27:51-52(a)
• Sun was Darkened – Luke 23:45
• There was a great apostacy, a falling away from Christ Jesus from the many that originally followed – Mark 15:29; Luke 2:34, 23:39; Matthew 27:41; Mark 15:31
• Silence in Heaven – Isaiah 63:3; Hebrews 1:3
• Darkness over the Land – Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44
• Men Hid Themselves From Jesus, and Turned Back – Luke 23:48
• Temple Service Ceases – Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45
• Disciples go through period of trouble in that they appear to be forsaken of Heaven – Matthew 27:43,46; Mark 15:34
• A Glorious Light From Heaven Encircles the Cross – Psalms 8:5, 21:1-13, 57:11, 72:17-20, 97:6; Isaiah 2:10,19,21; Hebrews 2:9
• Jesus comes down, but is at first hidden away from the sight of His disciples for a time or season – Matthew 27:60-66; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:53-55; John 19:41-42
• Angels start coming down from Heaven – Matthew 28:2-3; Luke 24:4; Mark 16:5; John 12:12
• There is another massive earthquake – Matthew 28:2
• A special resurrection takes place – Matthew 27:52-53
• Jesus appears glorified to His disciples – Matthew 28:9; Mark 16:9,12-14; Luke 24:15-49; John 20:13-31
• Angels appear with Jesus in Glory – Matthew 28:2,5; Mark 16:5; Luke 24:4,51; John 20:12; Acts 1:9-11
• A cloud – 1 Kings 18:43-46, Ezekiel 1:4; Isaiah 19:1; Acts 1:9-11
• Jesus returns to Heaven with trophies of the specially resurrected – Psalms 24:1-10, 68:18; Ephesians 4:8
  

ANTI-TYPE – Final Events (Second Advent)​

• Great Lisbon Earthquake (AD Nov. 1st 1755) – Revelation 6:12
• Sun was Darkened (AD May 19th 1780) – Revelation 6:12
• Stars of Heaven Fell (AD Nov. 12-13th 1833) – Revelation 6:13
  • Astronomical Content Of North American Plains Indian Calendars, By Von Del Chamberlain, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, DC ( 1984) Archaeoastronomy, No. 6 ( JHA. XV (1984)) 1984 JHAS 15 1 C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
• Silence In Heaven – Psalms 33:22, 50:3, 83:1; Isaiah 65:6; Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25, 22:53; Hebrews 3:6, 10:23; Revelation 2:25, 3:10, 8:1, 10:7, 15:8, 17:12, 22:11-12
• Darkness Over the Land – Revelation 16:10
• Men Hide themselves – Revelation 16:15-16, 18:9-10,19
• Temple services ceased – Revelation 8:5, 10:7, 15:8, 16:17
• Disciples go through period of trouble in that they appear forsaken of Heaven – Genesis 32:1-32; Jeremiah 30:7
• Glorious Light From Heaven Encircles Saints – Philippians 3:21
• Jesus starts to come down, but is at first hidden away from the sight of His disciples for a time or season (Leaves the Most Holy Place) – Isa. 59:17; Rev. 19:16 (change garments, Priestly to Kingly)
• Angels start coming down from heaven – Revelation 15:1,6-8, 16:1
• There is another Massive Final Earthquake that shakes the whole world – Isaiah 2:19,21, 13:13; Joel 3:6; Haggai 2:6,21; Hebrews 12:26
• A special Resurrection takes place – Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13
• Jesus appears glorified to His disciples – Matthew 16:27, 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26
• Angels appear with Jesus in Glory – 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Jude 1:14-15
• A cloud – Isaiah 19:1; Ezekiel 1:4; Matthew 24:30, 26:64; Mark 13:26, 14:62; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 1:7
• Jesus returns to Heaven with trophies of the resurrected – Psalms 24:1-10; John 14:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14

***
[01.] A devastating earthquake and hailstorm (Rev. 16:18–21)
[02.] The second coming of Jesus for His saints (Mat. 24:30, 31)
[03.] The saved dead raised to life (1 Thes. 4:16)
[04.] The saved given immortality (1 Cor. 15:51–55)
[05.] The saved given bodies like Jesus (1 Jhn. 3:2; Php. 3:20, 21)
[06.] All the righteous caught up into the clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)
[07.] The living wicked slain by the breath of the Lord’s mouth (Isa. 11:4)
[08.] The unsaved dead remain in their graves until the end of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:5)
[09.] Jesus takes the righteous to heaven (Jhn. 13:33,36, 14:2,3)
[10.] Satan bound (Rev. 20:1–3)
[11.] The earth in a battered condition from huge hailstones and a devastating earthquake (Rev. 16:18–21)
[12.] The earth in total blackout and desolate, a “bottomless pit” (Jer. 4:23, 28)
1000 Years - Here or There Image - 1000 Years Millennium Here Or There : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
[13.] Satan bound and forced to stay on the earth (Rev. 20:1–3)
[14.] The righteous in heaven participate in the judgment (Dan. 7:22c; Rev. 20:4)
[15.] The wicked are all dead (Jer. 4:25; Isa. 11:4)
[16.] Third coming of Jesus with His saints (Zec. 14:5)
[17.] Holy city settles on the Mount of Olives, which becomes a great plain (Zec. 14:4,10)
[18.] The Father, His angels, and all of the righteous come with Jesus (Rev. 21:1–3; Mat. 25:31; Zec. 14:5)
[19.] The wicked dead are raised; Satan is loosed (Rev. 20:5,7)
[20.] Satan deceives the entire world (Rev. 20:8)
[21.] The wicked surround the holy city (Rev. 20:9)
[22.] The wicked are destroyed / annihilated by fire (Rev. 20:9)
[23.] New heavens and earth created (Isa. 65:17; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1)
[24.] God’s people enjoy eternity with God on the new earth (Rev. 21:2–4; Nah. 1:9).

Timeline Chart & Final Events - AWHN 2300 Day Years Prophecy Of Daniel 8:14 And Its Sub Parts : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The “reign upon the earth” comes after the 1000 years (Rev. 20:1-7), for the “saints” must both be resurrected & glorified and / or translated & brought back to Heaven (3rd; Jhn. 14:1-4; 1 Thes. 4:17; &c.) at the 2nd Advent / Coming of Jesus & First Great Resurrection (Job 14:5-14). There, in 3rd Heaven, they shall “reign with him (Jesus) a thousand years” (Rev. 20:4,5a,6), and go over the books of record (Psa. 149:1-9; 1 Cor. 6:2-3). 1000 years (finite, limited time; Dan. 7:22c,d) is not the “for ever and ever” (Rev. 11:15, 22:5).


As for the word “bottomless pit”, as found in the GNT TR of Rev. 9:1,2,11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, it is the koine Greek “αβυσσου” (abyssou). In the GNT TR of Rev. 20:3, it is again “αβυσσον” (abysson), which in the transliterated English is the word “abyss”. According to the first use in Genesis, it means the “deep”, being in “darkness”, and “without form and void (empty of / having no life)”, thus is associated with a dark chaotic wilderness / desert (water or earth), symbolic of death / no life. See Origen’s Greek Hexapla: Gen. 1:2, 7:11, 8:2; Deu. 8:7, 33:13; Job 38:16,30, 41:32 (41:24); Psa. 33:7 (32:7), 71:20 (70:20), 71:21 (70:21), 78:15 (77:15), 106:9 (105:9), 107:26 (106:26), 135:6 (134:6); Pro. 8:24; Isa. 44:27, 51:10, 63:13; & apocrypha: Dan. 3:54; Wis. 10:19; Sir. 24:5,29.

The word "rapture" simply means being "carried away or caught up (by force of power)":

• 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
  • Th 4:17 επειτα ημεις οι ζωντες οι περιλειπομενοι αμα συν αυτοις αρπαγησομεθα εν νεφελαις εις απαντησιν του κυριου εις αερα και ουτως παντοτε συν κυριω εσομεθα
  • 1Th 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

The word G726, "αρπαγησομεθα", "[h]arpagesometha" - "From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)." (Strong's Concordance), and "14x: to seize, as a wild beast, Joh_10:12; take away by force, snatch away, Mat_13:19; Joh_10:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; met. to seize on with avidity, eagerly, appropriate, Mat_11:12; to convey away suddenly, transport hastily, Joh_6:15." (Mounce's Concise Greek Dictionary)

• See also "rapture" - Rapture - Etymology, Origin & Meaning
• See also "rapiemur" -https://www.wordsense.eu/rapiemur/

So, yes, I believe in what the Bible calls being "caught up" at the second Advent of Jesus Christ. As for 'secret rapture', 'removal of saints from tribulation', 'second opportunity'. No.

• Anything but secret - Amazing Facts Pocket Book Doug Batchelor Anything But Secret : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The modern 'secret rapture'-esque futurism scenario came about by the Jesuit order into apostate evangelicalism.

[A.] is Preterism by another Jesuit, - Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) (not given in detail here, but skipped)

[B.] Futurism - Francisco Ribera(1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

• [1.] Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
• [2.] Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
• [3.] Abolish the Christian religion.
• [4.] Deny Jesus Christ.
• [5.] Be received by the Jews.
• [6.] Pretend to be God.
• [7.] Kill the two witnesses of God.
• [8.] Conquer the world.

[C.] Futurism - Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (S.J. – Jesuit), one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).

[D.] Futurism - Michael Walpole - A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.

[E.] Futurism - Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.

[F.] Futurism - Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface.

[G.] Futurism – Margaret McDonald, member of Edward Irving’s congregation has visions in early 1830’s, with a ‘secret rapture’ of believers before Antichrist appears.

[H.] Futurism - Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866), scholar and librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, further promoted and established Futurism in England after 1826, as a result of reading the work of Manuel De Lacunza.

[I.] Futurism - John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

[J.] Futurism - Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), formerly with the Plymouth Brethren, he became Presbyterian, and published The Hope Of Christ's Second Coming in 1864, in which he gave the following testimony on the origin of the secret rapture, "I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin." -- Footnote 1 for Chapter 9, pg 35.

[K.] Cyrus Ingerson Scofield(1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century.

• [1.] Futurist - Dallas Theological Seminary (John Walvoord, Chuck Swindoll, Charles C. Ryrie, Hal Lindsey, J. Vernon McGee, Kenneth N. Taylor, Thomas Ice, Renald Showers),
• [2.] Moody Bible Institute of Chicago (Jerry B. Jenkins),
• [3.] Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America; Tim LaHaye; Jerry Fallwell), and others like Trinity Broadcasting, Jack Van Impe Ministries, Zola Levitt Ministries, John [Ambush] Ankerberg, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, Eric Jon Phelps, etc.

Cited from my study here - https://archive.org/details/study-07-daniel-prophecies-overview-then-now-and-yet-to-come_202301/STUDY%2012%20–%20THE%20ANTICHRIST%20IS%20HERE%20NOW%20-%20666%20REVEALED%20%26%20THE%20BEAST%20AND%20ITS%20MARK%20MADE%20KNOWN%20-%20THOSE%20WITH%20GOD’S%20SEAL%20STAND%20FOR%20THE%20RIGHT%20TO%20CHOOSE%20-%20Copy/mode/1up

“the sun became black as sackcloth of hair” – The Great Dark Day, AD May 19, 1780, an unnatural Darkness spread over (generally from the West) the skies over parts of Eastern Canada and New England (East Coast, USA), as far north as Portland, Maine (USA), and southward to New Jersey (USA) and witnessed in Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, & Rhode Island.

COLLECTION OF FACTS FOR THE TIMES, CONSISTING OF VALUABLE EXTRACTS FROM EMINENT AUTHORS. ... SECOND EDITION, REVISED. STEAM PRESS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST PUBLISHING ASSOCIATION, BATTLE CREEK, MICH. 1875., pages 160-161 -


“the moon became as blood” – The Great Dark Day, AD May 19, 1780. This unnatural phenomenon occurred the very same day, only at night, that the Sun became black as sackcloth of hair (see also Mat. 24:29; Mar. 13:24; Luk. 21:25; Act. 2:20; Rev. 6:12 KJB).

Timothy Dwight reporting of Colonel Davenport, in CONNECTICUT HISTORICAL COLLECTIONS, CONTAINING A GENERAL COLLECTION OF INTERESTING FACTS, TRADITIONS, BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCHES, ANECDOTES, &c. RELATING TO THE HISTORY AND ANTIQUITIES OF EVERY TOWN IN CONNECTICUT, WITH GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTIONS. ILLUSTRATED BY 180 ENGRAVINGS. BY JOHN WARNER BARBER. [The Seal of the State of Connecticut.] CONNECTICUTENSIS SIGIL. REIP. QUI TRANSTULT, SUSTINET. He who transplanted still sustains. PUBLISHED AND SOLD AT NEW HAVEN, BY JOHN W. BARBER, HARTFORD, BY A. WILLARD. Price-Three dollars; with colored plates, $3 25. PRINTED BY B. L. HAMLEN, NEW HAVEN. 1836. page 407 -


“the stars of heaven fell unto the earth” – The Greatest recorded Leonid Meteor Shower of AD November 12th - 13th 1833; see also Mat. 24:29; Mar. 13:25; Luk. 21:25; Rev. 6:13 KJB.

Even the many Native (Indigenous, or First Nations Peoples) Americans, recorded this event on their yearly “Winter Calendars”:

“Astronomical content of North American Plains Indian calendars.”, by Chamberlain, V. D. in Archaeoastronomy (U.K.), No. 6, p. S1 - S54 (1984); 1984JHAS...15....1C - https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1984JHAS...15....1C/0000001.000.html

Blueprints said:

[15.] The wicked are all dead (Jer. 4:25; Isa. 11:4)

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Jer.4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

SDAs always leave out that part in red. And deny and/or ignore the many, many OT and NT scriptures that prophesy of the heavily-depopulated but still inhabited earth after the Wrath of God/Day of the Lord has been fulfilled.

Blueprints said:

“the sun became black as sackcloth of hair” – The Great Dark Day, AD May 19, 1780, an unnatural Darkness spread over (generally from the West) the skies over parts of Eastern Canada and New England (East Coast, USA), as far north as Portland, Maine (USA), and southward to New Jersey (USA) and witnessed in Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, & Rhode Island.

COLLECTION OF FACTS FOR THE TIMES, CONSISTING OF VALUABLE EXTRACTS FROM EMINENT AUTHORS. ... SECOND EDITION, REVISED. STEAM PRESS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST PUBLISHING ASSOCIATION, BATTLE CREEK, MICH. 1875., pages 160-161 -

“... [page 160] The Green Mountain Freeman of Montpelier, Vt., published the following verses, with this re- [page 160-161] mark, “They were furnished us by an old gentle-man of a neighboring town, in whose family they have been preserved nearly seventy years; hav-ing been written shortly after the memorable event they describe, in the old ballad style of the day:”-​

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“Nineteenth of May, a gloomy day,​

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When darkness veiled the sky;​

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The sun's decline may be a sign​

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Some great event is nigh.​

​

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“Let us remark how black and dark​

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Was the ensuing night;​

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And for a time the moon declined,​

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And did not give her light.​

​

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“Can mortal man their wonders scan,​

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Or tell a second cause?​

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Did not our God then shake his rod​

​

And alter nature’s laws?” ...” - Collection of Facts for the Times​

​

Collection of Facts for the Times

books.google.com

“the moon became as blood” – The Great Dark Day, AD May 19, 1780. This unnatural phenomenon occurred the very same day, only at night, that the Sun became black as sackcloth of hair (see also Mat. 24:29; Mar. 13:24; Luk. 21:25; Act. 2:20; Rev. 6:12 KJB).

Timothy Dwight reporting of Colonel Davenport, in CONNECTICUT HISTORICAL COLLECTIONS, CONTAINING A GENERAL COLLECTION OF INTERESTING FACTS, TRADITIONS, BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCHES, ANECDOTES, &c. RELATING TO THE HISTORY AND ANTIQUITIES OF EVERY TOWN IN CONNECTICUT, WITH GEOGRAPHICAL DESCRIPTIONS. ILLUSTRATED BY 180 ENGRAVINGS. BY JOHN WARNER BARBER. [The Seal of the State of Connecticut.] CONNECTICUTENSIS SIGIL. REIP. QUI TRANSTULT, SUSTINET. He who transplanted still sustains. PUBLISHED AND SOLD AT NEW HAVEN, BY JOHN W. BARBER, HARTFORD, BY A. WILLARD. Price-Three dollars; with colored plates, $3 25. PRINTED BY B. L. HAMLEN, NEW HAVEN. 1836. page 407 -

“... [page 407] “The 19th of May, 1780, was a remarkable day. Candles were lighted in ma-ny houses; the birds were silent and disappeared, and the fowls retired to roost. The legislature of Connecticut was then in session at Hartford. A very general opinion prevailed, that the day of judgment was at hand. The house of Representatives, be-ing unable to transact their business, adjourned. A proposal to adjourn the Council was under consideration. When the opinion of Colonel Davenport was asked, he an-swered, ‘I am against an adjournment. The day of judgment is either approaching, or it is not. If it is not, there is no cause of an adjournment: if it is, I choose to be found doing my duty. I wish therefore that candles may be brought.’” ...” - Connecticut Historical Collections​

“the stars of heaven fell unto the earth” – The Greatest recorded Leonid Meteor Shower of AD November 12th - 13th 1833; see also Mat. 24:29; Mar. 13:25; Luk. 21:25; Rev. 6:13 KJB.

Even the many Native (Indigenous, or First Nations Peoples) Americans, recorded this event on their yearly “Winter Calendars”:

“Astronomical content of North American Plains Indian calendars.”, by Chamberlain, V. D. in Archaeoastronomy (U.K.), No. 6, p. S1 - S54 (1984); 1984JHAS...15....1C - https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1984JHAS...15....1C/0000001.000.html

Click to expand...

If that had happened globally and had been followed immediately by the eschaton that would be interesting, but as it happens anomalous weather in North America and a meteor shower does not seem compelling evidence (particularly considering we have had many more meteor impacts since then, such as the meteor which exploded above Chelyabinsk in 2013.

WilliamLhk said:

Jer.4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

SDAs always leave out that part in red. And deny and/or ignore the many, many OT and NT scriptures that prophesy of the heavily-depopulated but still inhabited earth after the Wrath of God/Day of the Lord has been fulfilled.

Click to expand...

No, Seventh-day Adventists do not leave that part out. It is understood that the 1000 years ("whole land shall be desolate") is a temporary condition, with the finality being at its conclusion. Connect to Rev. 20, Isa. 24, &c. as already shown.

The Liturgist said:

If that had happened globally and had been followed immediately by the eschaton that would be interesting, but as it happens anomalous weather in North America and a meteor shower does not seem compelling evidence (particularly considering we have had many more meteor impacts since then, such as the meteor which exploded above Chelyabinsk in 2013.

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The prophecy doesn't say globally. The prophecy was not about meteoric impacts.

Blueprints said:

The prophecy doesn't say globally.

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The prophecy also doesn’t say anything about North America. What makes you think that specific event fulfilled the prophecy
when there have been other similar events?

It seems very odd that a prophecy in Revelation would be fulfilled in the 18th century in North America and then go unnoticed by most of the world.

The prophecy was not about meteoric impacts.

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Then why are you talking about a meteor shower in the early 19th century?

Blueprints said:

No, Seventh-day Adventists do not leave that part out. It is understood that the 1000 years ("whole land shall be desolate") is a temporary condition, with the finality being at its conclusion. Connect to Rev. 20, Isa. 24, &c. as already shown.

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Isaiah 24, as the Jeremiah passage, likewise contradicts your teaching of the earth being totally depopulated of humans:

Isaiah 24: 1 Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty and makes it waste,

Distorts its surface

And scatters abroad its inhabitants. ...

3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered,

For the LORD has spoken this word. ...

6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,

And those who dwell in it are desolate.

Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,

And few men are left.

"Men are left."

WilliamLhk said:

Isaiah 24, as the Jeremiah passage, likewise contradicts your teaching of the earth being totally depopulated of humans:

Isaiah 24: 1 Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty and makes it waste,

Distorts its surface

And scatters abroad its inhabitants. ...

3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered,

For the LORD has spoken this word. ...

6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,

And those who dwell in it are desolate.

Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,

And few men are left.

"Men are left."

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No, it is not contradictory; nor is the Seventh-day Adventist position in error. It is just that you do not understand what it is saying. God has a remnant (look up the two words there; a few) of "men" that He delivers. They are not burned. See passage of Isa. 24:14-17 KJB. There is a distinction between the inhabitant of the earth, and those whom are glorifying God in deliverance. The "men" that God has preserved through the events are those remade in the image of God, while the lost, having not the image of God, and without the Holy Ghost, and are as 'beasts' before the LORD (Job 18:3; 2 Pet. 2:12; Jud. 1:10 KJB). The lost are "taken" in destruction (Mat. 24:28; Luk. 17:34-37 KJB), while the saved are "left" alive, and return with Him back to heaven (Jhn. 14:1-4; 1 Thes. 4:13-18 KJB). They (few men, the remnant that live to see the final events) do not remain on earth, but go up to Jesus, and back to the Father's house for 1000 years (Dan. 7:22c; Rev. 20:4,6 KJB).



This connects to Rev. 20, in which the finally impenitent had been laying in their graves in the desolate earth ("pit"), and are finally resurrected, "after many days" (ie 1000 years; 2 Pet. 3:8; Psa. 84:10, 90:4). You can see the parallelism in this chart here:

- 1000 Years Millennium Here Or There : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

PreTrib is not really preTrib. Instead, it's pre-nuke. The rapture must now come before the tribulation and also before the nukes start falling. This way preTribbers don't have to have any stress.

PostTribbers don't have any stress. They aren't preparing just like the preTribbers aren't preparing. Canning peaches for food storage is not preparing.

Who qualifies for preTrib? If you don't believe in preTrib, do you miss the preTrib rapture?

Who is a good Christian worthy of preTrib? What if I just miss the cutoff? If only I had read the Bible one more time.

The Liturgist said:

The prophecy also doesn’t say anything about North America.

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You are right. It doesn't - there. It also doesn't have to since there is other context in Revelation which will relate that. I simply made the point that it doesn't say globally. It follows a sequence of events in order, which order was provided to you already (earthquake (Rev. 6:12a), then Sun and moon events (Rev. 6:12b). The timing is under the 6th seal, which followed the many years of the first 5 seals. The location is where God's people, His remnant (Rev. 12) were able to see and experience those events at the time of their appearances.

Like the Great Lisbon Earthquake (Nov. 1, 1755), near Europe, which literally changed the way people studied earthquakes - BBC World Service - Witness History, Great Lisbon Earthquake



Then, the events which followed in succession (sun & moon & stars, which event of the stars coinciding with other of the prophecies and typologies; see chart), when God's people had found refuge in the 'states' (AD 1776 and after, when it, as "another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.", arose and grew to worldwide super power, "he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him", as such "power was given him over all", and "power" "over all" is "super-power" Super - Etymology, Origin & Meaning )

Chart - 6th Trumpet 2300 Day Years Chart : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive



You can read the books on the Seals here (for further timeline / event details):



You can read the book on the Trumpets here (for further timeline / event details):


There is a greater typology in Christ Jesus also:


Just as Jesus had a period of 40 days, there would be a period of 40 years from the beginning of the 3 1/2 day-years prophecy of Rev. 11:9,11 (AD 1793, + 40 = 1833), and which would leave just 10 day-years (1833/4-=1843/4) unto the fulfilment of the Jubile, ending of the 2,300, and ending of the 1,335 (AD 1843/4), and also coming after the '5 months' (see below) of Rev. 9:5,6,10 and the announcing of judgment to come.



'5 months' - 5 Months - Five Months Of Rev 9:5,6,10 - Mega Chart - Months - Feasts - Early And Latter Rains - Pregnancy - Noah : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Just scroll to the side of the link above to see the enlarged, portion, editions in their individual components.

The Liturgist said:

What makes you think that specific event fulfilled the prophecy
when there have been other similar events?

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There have not been other 'similar events' as those just described, and especially not in the timing and order those events occurred. Even consider the citations I provided on the events. The Christians that experienced those events wrote of them in the context of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and even applied them to the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus. The events were so spectacular that even the non-Christians took notice and made notice in secular papers (newspapers, circulars, &c). Consider the 'winter calendars', in that one special event in the year was recorded for that year (1833), and it was the falling of the 'stars'. Have there been Leonid meteoric showers before, and after? Of course, but not in the spectacular way in which they appeared in 1833, which was giving warning of the other prophecies to come, and being fulfilled then. People could literally read at night by the light of that shower, that flowed in the tens of thousands for quite some time.

The Liturgist said:

It seems very odd that a prophecy in Revelation would be fulfilled in the 18th century in North America and then go unnoticed by most of the world.

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The prophecies were for God's people who were told to be looking for such signs (Mat., Mar,. Luk., Rev.), not the rest of the world, either apostate, or rebellious. As for instance:


Those writers are tied to the 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 being a part of the 2,300 in Daniel. See also Dan. 7:25, 12:7; Rev. 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luk. 21:24 (times of the Gentiles). AD 508 - AD 1798 (1,290), and AD 538 - AD 1798 (1,260), and AD 508 - AD 1843 (1,335) yet the tribulation of those days, was shortened, though the time prophecy continued unto its ending:

The Liturgist said:

Then why are you talking about a meteor shower in the early 19th century?

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I think you missed my point, but to go back to what you said, the events of the Russian, and other impacts, are generally singular isolated events, and not at all what is described by Rev. 6:13, "... even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Many figs falling, but not in an isolated standalone context. They had to follow after a specific order, and timing of the previous events that led up to them..

Consider - Americans Fell in Love With Science When the Breathtaking Leonid Meteor Shower Lit Up the Skies Across the Nation

- Stars Fell Like Snow: Witnesses to the 1833 Leonid Meteor Storm

Blueprints said:

You are right. It doesn't - there. It also doesn't have to since there is other context in Revelation which will relate that. I simply made the point that it doesn't say globally. It follows a sequence of events in order, which order was provided to you already (earthquake (Rev. 6:12a), then Sun and moon events (Rev. 6:12b). The timing is under the 6th seal, which followed the many years of the first 5 seals. The location is where God's people, His remnant (Rev. 12) were able to see and experience those events at the time of their appearances.

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That’s one interpretation but its a very SDA-specific interpretation which is not obvious to other Christians, which is predicated upon a chiliastic interpretation of Revelation.

I see nothing in Revelation for my part that would refer to North America or to any events in the 18th century; the relevance of these 18th century events would be immense for someone born in the “burned over district” of New York in the early 19th century, but from a more global Christian perspective, referring to odd weather conditions in the late 18th century is extremely specific and also extremely obscure.

Additionally, its very difficult to regard events in the 18th century as the beginning of the Eschaton described in Revelation in that the majority of all humans who have ever lived (a total population estimated at 161 billion, most of whom died in infancy) to live to at least the age of 30 were born after 1951.

Blueprints said:

Those writers are tied to the 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 being a part of the 2,300 in Daniel. See also Dan. 7:25, 12:7; Rev. 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luk. 21:24 (times of the Gentiles). AD 508 - AD 1798 (1,290), and AD 538 - AD 1798 (1,260), and AD 508 - AD 1843 (1,335) yet the tribulation of those days, was shortened, though the time prophecy continued unto its ending

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And these dates are actually much less significant than Adventists think they are relevant to the strength of the Papacy and related issues. Leo I was the first Bishop of Rome to be exclusively styled Pope in the Western Church and to call himself Pontifex Maximus. St. Gregory the Diologist, also known in the West as St. Gregory the Great, became the first Pope to exercise broad secular authority as the Roman government collapsed. The 1798 date of the Concordat with Napoleon was furthermore much less of a setback for Papal temporal power than the loss of the Papal States to the Kingdom of Italy, which was followed by Papal Infallibility being decalred at Vatican I.

Also, prior to the tenth century, the idea of Papal Supremacy was not pervasive in the Church of Rome, and it did not become enough of an issue to cause a schism with the Eastern Orthodox until 1054 AD.

As far as I can tell no prophecies of Ellen G. White refer to the Orthodox and she did not consider our existence or our contribution to church history in writing The Great Controversy or other books, and appears to have attributed several things we did, such as the Council of Nicaea, to the Church of Rome (was she aware there were only two Papal legates at Nicaea, and the remaining bishops were Greek Orthodox? Or that the main driving force at the council was not St. Constantine but St. Athanasius of Alexandria?)

The general disregard of Eastern Christianity or of the status of Eastern Christians in the parousia is another objection i would raise with regards to the Adventist interpretation of Revelation. It seems extremely odd to say that an event that occurred in North America, which at the time had a small population compared to Europe and Asia, would be significant in the course of the Revelation, when that event has become almost entirely forgotten about at present (indeed I had never heard of it before Adventists mentioned it), particularly given that most controversies and martyrdoms of Christians in the 20th and 21st century involved persecution by the Ottoman Empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Nazi Germany and other Communist and Islamist regimes, such as the Ethiopian Derg communist regime or Daesh? I

Indeed I would note that in the US, no Sabbatarian Christians are being martyred en masse by government authorities for refusal to work on Sunday, and increasingly, government agencies have been interfering with the Sunday worship of the majority of Christians by scheduling youth sports practices for Sunday morning or at other times problematic for Christian families, and the trend has been towards the repeal of laws restricting trading and alcohol procurement on Sunday (I also find it peculiar that Adventists would oppose Blue Laws that prohibit the sale of alcohol on Sundays when Adventists believe any consumption of alcohol to be sinful.

The Liturgist said:

That’s one interpretation but its a very SDA-specific interpretation which is not obvious to other Christians, which is predicated upon a chiliastic interpretation of Revelation.

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That is not the Seventh-day Adventist position. We do not adhere to "private interpretation" (2 Pet. 1:20 KJB). God, in the word itself, interprets His own words, line upon line (Gen. 40:8; Isa. 28:10,13). In other words, the Bible is interpreted internally, without 'me', 'you', or 'them' ever having existed at all. It says what is says whether 'you', 'me' or 'them' ever read it. So it is not "predicated upon a chiliastic interpretation of Revelation". The very inherent structure of Revelation (see pages 5-38 - Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ) is built into itself, and the parallelisms define each place.