Is the Rapture credible?

The Liturgist said:

please (a) retract the claim that my argument was “false on its face”

Click to expand...

Not at all. Even if that specific section of what I wrote is false (I couldn't find it again, but didn't spend a whole lot of time on it), the other parts were not.

JSRG said:

Augustine says there are two possible readings: One could take it as a literal thousand years, or one could take it (as bolded above) as not being a literal thousand years, but instead "the whole duration of this world." He does not appear to take a position on which one is correct. So Augustine did not have a "teaching" that the millennium would be a literal thousand years, but merely viewed that as a possibility.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected.

Xeno.of.athens said:

“Caught up… to meet the Lord in the air” uses the same Greek verb (apantēsis) used for going out to greet a royal figure and escorting him back in honour; thus the church meets Christ as He descends in glory to inaugurate the final judgement and the new creation.

Click to expand...

But when the same word apantēsis is used in the parable of the 10 virgins, they go back with Him [in Hebraic tradition, to the Bridegroom's Father's house], and "the door is shut." No public earthly procession here; rather, a removal from sight.

WilliamLhk said:

If Christ's intent is to keep on descending to earth (Paul doesn't say or even hint that), then why bother with a very short-term rapture of saints into the clouds?? Makes no sense.

Particularly since Rev. 7:9-14 tells us of an innumerable number of saints, "having come out of the great tribulation," standing before God's heavenly throne. That is who, and where, these raptured saints will be.

Click to expand...

1st, I think the saints *of the entire NT and OT ages* come out of the tribulations of this present world. For those who try to live godly lives, it is a troubling experience indeed.

Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" for Israel as being their national experience in the current age, which largely appears as a failure. But even Israel will be delivered out of it, particularly those who have converted to Jesus and rise to meet him when he comes again.

So, why rise to heaven 1st before doing a u turn and coming back with him? I believe it is something that takes place instantly, rather than as an event measured by time. The reason it is mentioned at all is because God in heaven is the source of our resurrection. And so, we are pictured as going to Him for our resurrection bodies, just as Jesus had to return to heaven to complete his own resurrection and glorification event.

RandyPNW said:

We are not going to heaven to stay in heaven. Rather, we are going to heaven to be instantly glorified so that we may partake in Christ's descent from heaven. What happens after that is anybody's guess....

Click to expand...

Can you provide scripture to support this statement?

ARBITER01 said:

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Given such passages as this, I wouldn't say we as born again Christians are destined to suffer the wrath of GOD during a tribulation.

Click to expand...

You are correct, Christians will not suffer the wrath of God. I am not aware of any scripture that says God has to remove us to heaven to protect us from His wrath on earth. Christians will suffer persecution, but not wrath from God.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Saints are still on earth in Revelation 13:7!

Postvieww said:

Can you provide scripture to support this statement?

Click to expand...

I shared this in post #296...

1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"Coming down from heaven" means, for me, to *leave the realm of heaven.* When you come down "from" something you *leave* that something. When you come down "from" heaven, you *leave* heaven.

Revelation 18​

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Christians still on earth I Revelation 18!

Postvieww said:

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Saints are still on earth in Revelation 13:7!

Click to expand...

The Pretrib Rapture viewpoint requires that there be a Dispensational shift from the Church Age to the Age of Israel at the point where Antichrist's Reign begins. To justify this shift it is argued that all of the judgments mentioned in the book of Revelation happen all through the period of Antichrist's Reign, out of which God must deliver His Church to keep them from "God's Wrath."

But it doesn't follow that there is either this Dispensational shift or that God's Judgments must follow *throughout" the period of Antichrist's Reign--anymore than God's apocalyptic judgments are falling upon the Church today, even though judgments from God do happen all the time. Most of the judgments relayed in the book of Revelation are focused upon the very end of Antichrist's Reign, and not upon God's general disfavor with Antichristianity as it has existed all through the present age.

Nor are we told that a Church "Rapture" takes place just before Antichrist rises to begin his Reign. NT eschatology can be traced back to the prophecies of Daniel, who saw the coming of the Son of Man from heaven as associated with the deliverance of the saints. And this is how Jesus portrayed his Coming, as well.

This means that Christ Returns at the end of the age, to destroy Antichrist, deliver his People, and set up His eternal Kingdom all at the same time--not in some transitional stage just before the rise of Antichrist. That was Darby's "child" and not historic eschatology in the Christian Church.

WilliamLhk said:

Not at all. Even if that specific section of what I wrote is false (I couldn't find it again, but didn't spend a whole lot of time on it), the other parts were not.

Click to expand...

Forgive me, I misunderstood your argument, it seemed to me you were saying that my claim that the Oriental Orthodox accept the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed as being false, but it looks like you were referring to it more generally. On which point I should clarify my position: my view is that the Bible is the textual tradition uniting all of Christianity, whereas the Constantinopolitan creed of 381 is, according to the ChristianForums.com Statement Of Faith, what we use on this site, and what most Christian theologians I know, use to determine whether or not a given denomination adheres to normative Christian theology (even if that denomination does not use the creed in their actual worship services).

Now, regarding the document you quoted, if you could please tell me where you found this:

" The Nicene Creed originated at the First Council of Nicaea (325) and was revised at the First Council of Constantinople (381) — the version commonly used in many churches is the Niceno‑Constantinopolitan Creed — but it is not the single document that "unites all of Christianity." Different Christian traditions use different creeds, formulations, and emphases (for example, some Eastern churches use the original Nicene form, Oriental Orthodox churches accept the 325 creed but rejected the 381 council, and many Protestant denominations adopt the Nicene or Apostles' Creed while others prioritize confessions). "

I really need to know if that was an AI, or if you copied that from a book, or a website, and if so, from which one. That document is inaccurate and whoever wrote it or is hosting it needs to be informed. Not many people know anything about the Oriental Orthodox and as someone who has extremely close connections with the Oriental Orthodox and has spent thousands of hours in Syriac Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches and made pilgrimages to Coptic Orthodox monasteries it is extremely important to me that the record concerning the OOs be set straight. Also there is the issue that if they positively rejected the Council of Constantinople and the 381 creed they would not be allowed on ChristianForums, but obviously that is not the case which is why there is a Voice in the Desert subforum and we even have some OO members although the most active one, @dzheremi , has been absent lately.

Postvieww said:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Christians still on earth I Revelation 18!

Click to expand...

Which simply means Wrath-era believers.

When the Lord descends to take up His bride, "every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him." Rev. 1:7 Many people at that time, especially Jews (e.g., the144,000), will then believe in Him. Zech. 12:10 But because they were not "ready" at His Parousia (Matt. 25:10), they must remain on earth when the Wrath begins.

The Liturgist said:

Now, regarding the document you quoted, if you could please tell me where you found this:

Click to expand...

Couldn't find it again, including searching google and another AI for the exact wording: google AI sent me to the Wikipedia article, but it wasn't in it. Fairly sure the source was not an AI, but a website. Sorry, but I did try.

I did find out that the Southern Baptist Convention, "the largest Baptist organization in the world and the largest Protestant denomination in the United States," do not accept the Nicene Creed:

WilliamLhk said:

Couldn't find it again, including searching google and another AI for the exact wording: google AI sent me to the Wikipedia article, but it wasn't in it. Fairly sure the source was not an AI, but a website. Sorry, but I did try.

I did find out that the Southern Baptist Convention, "the largest Baptist organization in the world and the largest Protestant denomination in the United States," do not accept the Nicene Creed:

Southern Baptists Do Not Adopt Nicene Creed at Annual Meeting

While most expected the battles over women’s ordination and sexual abuse reform to continue at this year’s meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), another debate emerged, revealing mixed feelings among the denomination’s ranks about the Nicene Creed.

churchleaders.com

Click to expand...

That’s unfortunate that you weren’t able to find the source, it disturbs me to know someone is out there spreading even more misinformation about one of my favorite denominations. Sometimes people confuse Constantinople and Chalcedon.

WilliamLhk said:

Couldn't find it again, including searching google and another AI for the exact wording: google AI sent me to the Wikipedia article, but it wasn't in it. Fairly sure the source was not an AI, but a website. Sorry, but I did try.

I did find out that the Southern Baptist Convention, "the largest Baptist organization in the world and the largest Protestant denomination in the United States," do not accept the Nicene Creed:

Southern Baptists Do Not Adopt Nicene Creed at Annual Meeting

While most expected the battles over women’s ordination and sexual abuse reform to continue at this year’s meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), another debate emerged, revealing mixed feelings among the denomination’s ranks about the Nicene Creed.

churchleaders.com

Click to expand...

I've just read the article in your link, and to say that the SBC "do not accept the Nicene Creed" is a misrepresentation, since it overstates the situation considerably. There was a concern about some ambiguous wording in the creed, concerning baptism; but, even that, if interpreted correctly was said not to be a problem.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Please, everyone, take time to read the original post for this thread. click this link to read it #1

Click to expand...

Yes, please. Enough already about creeds!

Xeno.of.athens said:

Please, everyone, take time to read the original post for this thread. click this link to read it #1

Click to expand...

I believe the rapture doctrine and the focus people have on being raptured is unscriptural and a distraction and we do not see such a fixation in the early church, clearly.

The Liturgist said:

I believe the rapture doctrine and the focus people have on being raptured is unscriptural and a distraction and we do not see such a fixation in the early church, clearly.

Click to expand...

Do we really see much if anything about it up until the 19th century? It mostly seems to be founded by Darby and Moody.