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Has your Adventist church experienced the Shaking?

reddogs

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The first big shaking was definitely felt when 'Questions on Doctrines' came out. We find a good description of the division it caused in many articles withing the church and caused many to leave at that time.

"Perhaps no other book has aroused so much controversy in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as the 1957 publication of Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine.1 The book was published as both a direct result of and a representative response to the Seventh-day Adventist Evangelical Conferences of 1955-1956, involving Walter Martin and Donald Grey Barnhouse2 on the evangelical side and a number of General Conference leaders on the Adventist side. Questions on Doctrine was to be the apology par excellence of Adventism.

However, when the book came out, it created a great uproar within and without the church. Evangelical Protestants found themselves divided
on the issue of the acceptability of Seventh-day Adventists as Christians. Adventists, on the other hand, saw within their ranks an even greater
division. Although the book received a de facto imprimatur from the General Conference, it generated a passionate dissent concerning the book’s treatment of Christ’s human nature and the atonement. Single-handedly spearheading this protest was M. L. Andreasen, a retired theologian. Determined to have Questions on Doctrine censured and withdrawn, Andreasen campaigned against it, denounced it as “the most subtle and dangerous error”3 and “a most dangerous heresy.”4...https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/2008/2008-2/2008-2-05.pdf

Many Adventist left the church saying it had departed from its belief in what human nature Christ came with, which had been that of after the Fall as we see in SOP.

"Whatever Jesus took was not His intrinsically or innately. His taking the burden of our inherited weakness and failings, even after four thousand years of accumulated infirmities and degeneracy" (The Desire of Ages, pp. 49, 117)

'It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life..... Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of hu[bless and do not curse]manity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss." The Desire of Ages, p. 49.

"He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. ["Medical Ministry, p. 181]

But what many Adventists did not understand which they would have with deeper study,, is that Jesus took on Adams "spiritual nature" before the fall with no taint of sin, which is also clear Adventist doctrine. Which we also find in SOP...

"In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God, . . . "That holy thing which shall be born of thee [Mary] shall be called the Son of God." . . . Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet he without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be." [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5, pp. 1128, 1129.]

"We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. " [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 113]

"I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset. . . . On not one occasion was there a response to his manifold temptations. Not once did Christ step on Satan's ground, to give him any advantage. Satan found nothing in Him to encourage his advances." [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129.]

"The human nature of Christ is likened to ours, and suffering was more keenly felt by Him; for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. Therefore His desire for the removal of suffering was stronger than human beings can experience. . . . The Son of God endured the wrath of God against sin. All the accumulated sin of the world was laid upon the Sin-bearer, the One who was innocent, the One who alone could be the propitiation for sin, because He Himself was obedient. He was One with God. Not a taint of corruption was upon Him." [The Signs of the Times, Dec. 9, 1897.]

He took "the nature but not the sinfulness of man." [Signs of the Times, May 29, 1901.]

"He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions." [Testimonies, vol.2, p.202.]

The Son of God "became like one of us, except in sin." [The Youth's Instructor, Oct. 20, 1886.]

Now after Ellen White passed from the scene Adventist started to drift away from what she had written and was true Adventist belief that Christ had no taint of sin, and began to hold that "sinful flesh" meant Christ had desires of sin such as lust and covet. So lets start with a verse that speaks directly to that about the nature of Christ:

Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I was listening to a program with Adventist theologian Herbert Douglass, who knew many of those involved including M. L. Andersean, on Amazing Facts, and he in went in depth over the Adventist book Questions on Doctrine, but to my surprise did not make one quote from the book that he had a issue with. Instead he quoted others who said it had an effect on how Adventist looked at the nature of Christ and the Atonement. We all know how it shook the Adventist at the time, and the droves that left the church because of it. This was the first major shaking of the church even though there had been other issues such the one with Jones and Waggoner in 1888.
 
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reddogs

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The next major shaking came with Desmond Ford and his personal view that the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgement has no biblical basis. We all were witness to the end result of that as many brethren as well as pastors left the church, with some becoming the bitterest of enemies against the church or formenting a attack on its doctrines with every manner of weapon they could seize upon. We have yet to fully let go of the effects of what he caused as we find online and elsewhere...

The Investigative Judgment in Matthew - Advent Defense League... The Investigative Judgment in Matthew - Advent Defense League

Desmond Ford & Walter Rea: 1844, Glacier View and Ellen G. White?s Plagiarism (1982) ? Answering Adventism.... https://answeringadventism.com/desm...view-and-ellen-g-whites-plagiarism-1982/

And we have this from Ministry Magazine | The shaking up of Adventism, during the crisis which shows the impact at the time..
"The "Shaking Up of Adventism," writer Ed Plowman, a Christianity Today editor, explains, involves "recent developments that are plunging the Seventh-day Adventist Church into a serious crisis of identity and authority." Among them: a challenge by theologian Desmond Ford to the "traditionalist" understanding of the investigative judgment. Ford, an Australian on temporary assignment to Pacific Union College, in Angwin, California, was invited to Adventist headquarters in Washington, D.C., after a speech he gave in late October at a lay-sponsored conference at the college resulted in protest. Church administrators have asked him to spend six months, on salary, preparing a paper detailing his views, which will then be studied by a committee of theologians and administrators.

Also in ferment, the Christianity Today editor suggests, are "the issues of authority and ecclesiology," issues, our readers will be aware, that are making headlines in churches ranging from Roman Catholic through evangelical to Mormon. Plowman refers further to charges that Ellen White borrowed "liberally" from other writers?a charge that is hardly news to most Adventists and that few would deny. The article quotes Neal Wilson, Adventist General Conference president, as saying in a letter that Mrs. White herself "acknowledged using other sources," including "biographical, historical, spiritual, and scientific material." The issue hardly seems likely to shake up Adventists, who have been reading such acknowledgments in church publications for a number of decades. Notable among authors treating the issue is former Adventist Review editor Francis D. Nichol (Ellen G. White and Her Critics, pp. 403-486, published in 1951). Even the assertion that early in Seventh-day Adventist history "many of the church's members placed Mrs. White's teachings on a level equal with Scripture, and they tended to require the Bible to square with her views, a practice that persists among some Adventists today" hardly seems likely to register an upheaval of earthquake proportions on an ecclesiastical Richter scale. Ellen White herself, as most Adventists can document by a quick trip to their bookcase, ever pointed church members to the Bible for their authority and teaching (as Plowman also notes).

More worthy of concern is the article's identification of the current situation as a continuing plea "for the church to repent and to embrace Christ's finished work on the cross"?though, again, Plowman notes that the message of righteousness by faith was preached by two Adventist ministers in 1888, with the enthusiastic endorsement of Ellen White (and, we might add, by many ministers before and after 1888, though without the unity of belief we may wish to have seen). With the members of the early Seventh-day Adventist Church coming from a variety of existing denominations, belief in the finished work of Christ on the cross was simply assumed and thus tended to be neglected. In addition, attacks on such distinctive doctrines as the Sabbath and the investigative judgment caused many ministers to become more polemical than might have been desired; not a few might have been justly accused of preaching the law until they were as dry as the hills of Gilboa, that knew neither dew nor rain. What they should have been preaching was Christ in the law.

Certainly one could document the church's belief in the "finished work of Christ on the cross" throughout its history. Two recent sources would be Questions on Doctrine, a 1957 book that deals comprehensively with issues raised by a group of evangelical scholars who studied Adventist concepts at some depth, and Dr. L. E. Froom's monumental work, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers (1954).

Nevertheless, Plowman quotes from the book The Shaking of Adventism (with its self-evident contribution to his article) as concluding that it is this truth?the finished work of Christ on the cross?that is shaking Seventh-day Adventism "right down to its foundation."

Ministry Magazine | The shaking up of Adventism?... The shaking up of Adventism?
 
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reddogs

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Then it seems that there came waves of shakings with issues of tithing and church finances being properly addressed, and church and others. Then we came upon giant ones that grew and separated church, family and friends, Politics and Women's Ordination.

I didnt think Women's Ordination would grow to the battle royal it became till it cause even moderators and administrates on Adventist sites to begin to separate from each other and their forums to say nothing of the brethren and another major surge and shaking out the door of the Adventist church. https://www.adventistarchives.org/s...ns-ordination-a-brief-historical-overview.pdf

Only the devil was pleased, but this was nothing to the next one, with the political apocalypse with the election of 2016. You could not even mention the names of the two candidates whether in church, at work, or even in public without a tremendous reaction or hardening of views, with no recourse for agreement.

I remember I was greeting at the front door back during that time, and a group came up to the front to enter in. But first they asked, 'who do you support?' between the candidates. Despite my best effort to defuse the situation as not proper place or time for politics. They stopped and would not withdraw from the question before entering. They then turned around and left in disgust when I would not engage for one side or the other. Politics had become more important than the teachings of Jesus and His church..
 
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BobRyan

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The first big shaking was definitely felt when 'Questions on Doctrines' came out. We find a good description of the division it caused in many articles withing the church and caused many to leave at that time.

"Perhaps no other book has aroused so much controversy in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church as the 1957 publication of Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine.1 The book was published as both a direct result of and a representative response to the Seventh-day Adventist Evangelical Conferences of 1955-1956, involving Walter Martin and Donald Grey Barnhouse2 on the evangelical side and a number of General Conference leaders on the Adventist side. Questions on Doctrine was to be the apology par excellence of Adventism.
QoD was written as "The answer" to Walter Martin's list of questions.

Prior to this the entire denomination was slandered as "a cult" by Anthony Hoekema's book "The Four Major Cults", which Martin described as shoddy scholarship. Hoekema relied on hearsay , anecdotes of "this one person said" as compared to going to the top and getting Adventist scholarship to respond in a well written thoroughly researched answer.

In the QoD book the Adventists are clearly Trinitarian, Saved by grace through faith, Sola scriptura based all the while affirming our doctrine on the judgment, state of the dead, gift of prophecy, commandments of God etc.

Perfect!
However, when the book came out, it created a great uproar within and without the church
Among a few. LIked the book and never met anyone who objected to it.
. Evangelical Protestants found themselves divided
on the issue of the acceptability of Seventh-day Adventists as Christians.
True. They had Hoekema slamming Adventists and Walter Martin admitting that Adventists are mainline Christianity even though he did not agree with Adventists on every single doctrine just as he did not agree with Methodists on every single doctrine
Adventists, on the other hand, saw within their ranks an even greater
division.
How so? We mushroomed to 24 Million since those days.
Although the book received a de facto imprimatur from the General Conference,
not too surprising
it generated a passionate dissent concerning the book’s treatment of Christ’s human nature and the atonement.
The book puts the same focus on Christ as fully God and fully man as we still have to this very day.
Phil 2 says God the Son "emptied himself" to take the form of a man. But as Christ stated "no one takes My Life, I lay it down and I take it up"
His divinity could not die in the tomb but His humanity could.
Single-handedly spearheading this protest was M. L. Andreasen, a retired theologian. Determined to have Questions on Doctrine censured and withdrawn, Andreasen campaigned against it, denounced it as “the most subtle and dangerous error”3 and “a most dangerous heresy.”4...https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/2008/2008-2/2008-2-05.pdf
Andreasen had some issues with our Trinity doctrine as I recall
Many Adventist left the church saying it had departed from its belief in what human nature Christ came with, which had been that of after the Fall as we see in SOP.
SOP said Christ had the sinlessness of the human spiritual nature Adam before the fall , but had the weakened physical nature of humanity at the time of Christ. This is also what you see in QoD and almost all Christians agree.
"Whatever Jesus took was not His intrinsically or innately. His taking the burden of our inherited weakness and failings, even after four thousand years of accumulated infirmities and degeneracy" (The Desire of Ages, pp. 49, 117)
God declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). All have the same sinful nature. All are liable to make mistakes. No one is perfect. The Lord Jesus died for the erring that they might be forgiven. It is not our work to condemn. Christ did not come to condemn, but to save.{HP 292.5}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases 6:110-112). CTr 213.6 Christ Triumphant 213

2T 508 He was a mighty petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with like infirmities, tempted in all points even as we are. Jesus endured agony which required help and support from His Father. 2T508.2

Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, ..., The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {5BC 1128.5}

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing."
...
The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}

Christ felt this sorrow as much more keenly than we can, as his nature was higher and holier than ours. When we think of what the Saviour endured, can we become discouraged in our work? We have a precious truth to bring before the people, and just as long as we have breath, we should lift up our voices and proclaim that the transgression of God’s law is sin.{ST May 27, 1889, par. 4}

But what many Adventists did not understand which they would have with deeper study,, is that Jesus took on Adams "spiritual nature" before the fall with no taint of sin, which is also clear Adventist doctrine. Which we also find in SOP...
And which is stated clearly in QoD
". "That holy thing which shall be born of thee [Mary] shall be called the Son of God." . . . Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet he without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain, a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be." [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5, pp. 1128, 1129.]
exactly!
"We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. " [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 113]
bingo
"The human nature of Christ is likened to ours, and suffering was more keenly felt by Him; for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. Therefore His desire for the removal of suffering was stronger than human beings can experience. . . . The Son of God endured the wrath of God against sin. All the accumulated sin of the world was laid upon the Sin-bearer, the One who was innocent, the One who alone could be the propitiation for sin, because He Himself was obedient. He was One with God. Not a taint of corruption was upon Him." [The Signs of the Times, Dec. 9, 1897.]

He took "the nature but not the sinfulness of man." [Signs of the Times, May 29, 1901.]

"He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions." [Testimonies, vol.2, p.202.]

The Son of God "became like one of us, except in sin." [The Youth's Instructor, Oct. 20, 1886.]
In other words He did not have our sinful nature when it comes to the Rom 3 feature in it. Its bent toward sin. Its natural desire/passion for corruption , rebellion etc. Christ had no need of a savior, no need of forgiveness, no need to be born again, no need of a new nature. Ie no sinful nature. What He had was the human physical nature weakened by mankind's condition so many thousands of years after the fall of Adam
Now after Ellen White passed from the scene Adventist started to drift away from what she had written and was true Adventist belief that Christ had no taint of sin, and began to hold that "sinful flesh" meant Christ had desires of sin such as lust and covet.
yeouch!
where do we find someone saying Christ had sinful tendency to covet or lie or steal?
I guess maybe some "individual" may have thought it or written about it, and I just did not "read that book"
 
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BobRyan

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The next major shaking came with Desmond Ford and his personal view that the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgement has no biblical basis. We all were witness to the end result of that as many brethren as well as pastors left the church, with some becoming the bitterest of enemies against the church or formenting a attack on its doctrines with every manner of weapon they could seize upon. We have yet to fully let go of the effects of what he caused as we find online and elsewhere...

The Investigative Judgment in Matthew - Advent Defense League... The Investigative Judgment in Matthew - Advent Defense League

Desmond Ford & Walter Rea: 1844, Glacier View and Ellen G. White?s Plagiarism (1982) ? Answering Adventism.... https://answeringadventism.com/desm...view-and-ellen-g-whites-plagiarism-1982/

Ministry Magazine | The shaking up of Adventism?... The shaking up of Adventism?
He did such a good job when it came to the book of Daniel then completely collapsed trying to understand the reality of Romans 2 as it fit perfectly with the judgment in Dan 7.

He argued as did Augustine when it came to the 7 day creation week in Gen 1 that "God could do it wayyyy faster,, so He did' no matter the text.
 
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reddogs

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what was written at "The answer" to Martin's list of questions.

Prior to this the entire denomination was slandered as "a cult" by Anthony Hoekema's book "The Four Major Cults", which Martin described as shoddy scholarship. Hoekema relied on hearsay , anecdotes of "this one person said" as compared to going to the top and getting Adventist scholarship to respond in a well written thoroughly researched answer.

In the QoD book the Adventists are clearly Trinitarian, Saved by grace through faith, Sola scriptura based all the while affirming our doctrine on the judgment, state of the dead, gift of prophecy, commandments of God etc.

Perfect!

Among a few. LIked the book and never met anyone who objected to it.

True. They had Hoekema slamming Adventists and Walter Martin admitting that Adventists are mainline Christianity even though he did not agree with Adventists on every single doctrine just as he did not agree with Methodists on every single doctrine

How so? We mushroomed to 24 Million since those days.

not too surprising

The book puts the same focus on Christ as fully God and fully man as we still have to this very day.
Phil 2 says God the Son "emptied himself" to take the form of a man. But as Christ stated "no one takes My Life, I lay it down and I take it up"
His divinity could not die in the tomb but His humanity could.
!
where do we find someone saying Christ had sinful tendency to covet or lie or steal?
I guess maybe some "individual" may have thought it or written about it, and I just did not "read that book"
Well, I came across some of the reasons that Anthony Hoekema's included Seventh-day Adventists in his book "The Four Major Cults"....

Here is what I came across on the tension between Calvinism and Arminianism which show what might have drove Hoekema on it.

According to Calvinism:
"Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation."

Thus they stand against the freewill of man being turned to God on its own as seen in the following statement...

"... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright. It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that He is Alpha and Omega in the salvation of men." (Charles H. Spurgeon from the sermon 'Free Will A Slave' (1855) referring to Luther's book The Bondage of the Will which is listed with other resources on this topic after this article).


Now Arminianism attempts to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will, especially in relation to salvation. While Calvinism emphasizes the sovereignty of God, Arminianism emphasizes the responsibility of man. If Arminianism is broken down into five points, similar to the five points of Calvinism, these would be the five points:

(1) Partial Depravity - humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot chose to come to God on our own. We are capable of choosing to accept salvation or reject it without any influence from God. Note - classical Arminianism rejects "partial depravity" and holds a view very close to Calvinistic "total depravity."
(2) Conditional Election - God chose who would be saved based on knowing beforehand who would believe. God chooses those who He knows will believe.
(3) Unlimited Atonement - Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him.
(4) Resistible Grace - God's call on a person's life to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist Gods pull towards salvation if we choose to.
(5) Conditional Salvation Christians can lose their salvation if they continue in a life of sin and/or fall away from God. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it.


Now some modern Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security." Now the only point of Arminianism which Calvinists would agree is point #3 Unlimited Atonement as they see as most Christians that the Bible indicates that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the entire world. 1 John 2:2 says, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 2 Peter 2:1 says that Jesus even bought the wicked who will reject him such as false prophets who are doomed: But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them 'bringing swift destruction on themselves.' Jesus' death and atonement is available to everyone who will believe in Him. Jesus did not just die for those who will be saved but for the whole world, but only those who accept His gift gain eternal life.

Calvinism tends to not agree with the other four points of Arminianism pointing to Romans 3:10-18 which they feel argues for total depravity and that Romans 8:28-30 as showing that conditional election underemphasizes God's sovereignty. Calvinist feel that resistible grace underestimates the power and determination of God and that conditional salvation makes salvation a work rather than a gift of grace

Adventism tends towards the Arminian (Free Will) view and away from Calvinism and this cause some conflict with Calvinist, for those who remember the dialogues initiated by evangelicals Donald Barnhouse and Walter Martin, who sought clarification on what Adventists believed. The ones who fought the hardest from accepting Adventist were the Calvinist theologians and church leaders such as evangelical Anthony Hoekema (who felt Adventists were more in agreement with Arminianism), who argued that some Adventist doctrines were heterodox and did his best to keep them from being accepted by mainstream evangelical churches.

(Some of the other issues you touched on, need much more than just a few lines to answer..)
 
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BobRyan

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Calvinism comes in the form of 3 point Calvinism, 4 point Calvinism and 5 Point Calvinism.

Charles Swindoll presented himself as a 3 point Calvinist from what I can tell.
John MacArthur was a 5 point Calvinist

T Total Depravity
U Unconditional Election
L Limited Atonement
I Irresistible Grace
P Perseverance of the saints

Classic TULIP

So then "All Calvinists" are not using the same flavor of Calvinism as their own chosen version. They are typically one of those three.

4 Pointers leave out Perseverance.
3 Pointers usually leave out Unconditional Election and Irresistible grace.

So we can't paint them all with one broad brush stroke
 
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Adventism tends towards the Arminian (Free Will) view and away from Calvinism
"Tends"?

Adventism is much more in line with John Wesley's Methodism. So yeah, a lot of the Arminian POV.
and this cause some conflict with Calvinist, for those who remember the dialogues initiated by evangelicals Donald Barnhouse and Walter Martin, who sought clarification on what Adventists believed.
Martin , Barnhouse and Hoekema all accepted that Methodism was within the camp/tent of Christianity. Hoekema did not declare methodists to be one of his "four major cults"
The ones who fought the hardest from accepting Adventist were the Calvinist theologians and church leaders such as evangelical Anthony Hoekema (who felt Adventists were more in agreement with Arminianism), who argued that some Adventist doctrines were heterodox and did his best to keep them from being accepted by mainstream evangelical churches.
It went far beyond the Arminian objection in the case of Hoekema else he would have to have condemned Methodists and a great many other very large Christian groups.
 
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reddogs

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"Tends"?

Adventism is much more in line with John Wesley's Methodism. So yeah, a lot of the Arminian POV.

Martin , Barnhouse and Hoekema all accepted that Methodism was within the camp/tent of Christianity. Hoekema did not declare methodists to be one of his "four major cults"

It went far beyond the Arminian objection in the case of Hoekema else he would have to have condemned Methodists and a great many other very large Christian groups.
Well, I must study this further then...
 
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BobRyan

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(3) Unlimited Atonement - Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him.
That is opposite of Calvinism's "L Limited Atonement'

Now the only point of Arminianism which Calvinists would agree is point #3 Unlimited Atonement as they see as most Christians that the Bible indicates that Jesus died for the sins of everyone in the entire world.
I don't know of any Calvinists that hold to unlimited Atonement.

They argue that the sovereignty of God does not allow for atonement for those who God knows will never accept salvation, as I understand them to teach it.
 
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reddogs

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yeouch!
where do we find someone saying Christ had sinful tendency to covet or lie or steal?
I guess maybe some "individual" may have thought it or written about it, and I just did not "read that book"

Ok, let me answer this last part off the top of my head as is my instinct and pick up the pieces and see what we have. Go to most Adventist or Christian for that matter, and ask them what is the tendency or mans natural tendency? To sin or not to sin, and they will invariably say 'to sin. Now ask them what they think "Christs natural human tendency was?", and the truth of the matter or the norm is they will tend to look at themselves and say, "it must be to sin" like me...

That has been the issue that I have come across, especially as a moderator in forums with Adventist, but you might be around more sanctified brethren than is my experience, so thus a difference.
 
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reddogs

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That is opposite of Calvinism's "L Limited Atonement'


I don't know of any Calvinists that hold to unlimited Atonement.

They argue that the sovereignty of God does not allow for atonement for those who God knows will never accept salvation, as I understand them to teach it.
Ok, let me slow down and check through the two views as I think here is where I got my notes from, and may be the source of my misstep.

Here we have "What is Calvinism"

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four-point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement is unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; and 2 Peter 2:1.

The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Unlimited Atonement cannot possibly be true because, if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died. He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable...."

Now here is "What is Arminianism"

Arminianism is a system of belief that attempts to explain the relationship between God’s sovereignty and mankind’s free will, especially in relation to salvation. Arminianism is named after Jacobus Arminius (1560—1609), a Dutch theologian. While Calvinism emphasizes the sovereignty of God, Arminianism emphasizes the responsibility of man. If Arminianism is broken down into five points, similar to the five points of Calvinism, these would be the five points:

(1) Partial Depravity – humanity is depraved but still able to seek God. We are fallen and tainted by sin but not to the extent that we cannot choose to come to God and accept salvation, with the help of prevenient grace from God. Given such grace, human will is free and has the power to yield to the influence of the Spirit. Note: many Arminians reject partial depravity and hold a view very close to Calvinistic total depravity. (2) Conditional Election – God only “chooses” those whom He knows will choose to believe. No one is predetermined for either heaven or hell. (3) Unlimited Atonement – Jesus died for everyone, even those who are not chosen and will not believe. Jesus’ death was for all of humanity, and anyone can be saved by belief in Him. (4) Resistible Grace – God’s call to be saved can be resisted and/or rejected. We can resist God’s pull toward salvation if we choose to. (5) Conditional Salvation – Christians can lose their salvation if they actively reject the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives. The maintenance of salvation is required for a Christian to retain it. Note: many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

The only point of Arminianism that four-point Calvinists believe to be biblical is point #3—Unlimited Atonement. First John 2:2 says, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” Second Peter 2:1 tells us that Jesus even bought the false prophets who are doomed: “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.” Jesus’ salvation is available to anyone and everyone who will believe in Him. Jesus did not just die for those who will be saved.

Four-point Calvinism (the official position of Got Questions Ministries) finds the other four points of Arminianism to be unbiblical, to varying degrees. Romans 3:10–18 strongly argues for total depravity. Conditional election, or election based on God’s foreknowledge of human action, underemphasizes God’s sovereignty (Romans 8:28–30). Resistible grace underestimates the power and determination of God. Conditional salvation makes salvation a reward for work rather than a gift of grace (Ephesians 2:8–10). There are problems with both systems, but we see Calvinism as more biblically based than Arminianism. However, both systems fail to adequately explain the relationship between God’s sovereignty and mankind’s free will—due to the fact that it is impossible for a finite human mind to discern a concept only God can fully understand.

So lets look at four-point Calvinist and see what we find

Four-point Calvinism, also known as Amyraldism or moderate Calvinism, is a theological perspective that accepts four of the five points of traditional Calvinism, specifically rejecting the doctrine of limited atonement. This means that while adherents believe in total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints, they hold that Christ's atonement is available to all people, not just the elect.

And we look at Amyraldism...

A nuanced interpretation of Calvinism that posits Christ’s atonement as universally intended, conditional upon faith.


Religion: Christianity
Denomination: Reformed Protestantism
Founder: Moïse Amyraut
Founded: 17th century
Location: France
Other Names: Amyraldism, Amyraldianism


Amyraldism, also known as “four-point Calvinism” or “moderate Calvinism,” represents a theological perspective within the broader Reformed tradition. This doctrine is attributed to Moïse Amyraut, a 16th-century French theologian, who sought to modify the traditional Calvinistic interpretation of predestination and atonement. Central to Amyraldism is the concept of hypothetical universalism, which maintains that Christ’s atonement was made for all humanity on the condition of faith, thereby presenting a universal offer of salvation, distinct from the particular election of individuals to salvation.

Amyraldism retains the classic Calvinistic views on total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints, diverging only on the extent of the atonement. In essence, it rejects the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement in favor of a universal atonement that is effective only for those who believe. Amyraut argued that this interpretation better aligns with the benevolence of God and the scriptural assertions of God’s universal salvific will, without compromising the Calvinist commitment to unconditional election and sovereign grace.

Amyraut’s doctrine sparked considerable debate within Reformed circles in France, the Dutch Republic, and Switzerland. Some theologians, valuing Amyraut’s emphasis on God’s love and justice, found his views consistent with Reformed orthodoxy and the teachings of the Synod of Dort. Others, however, saw it as a departure from traditional Calvinist doctrine or an unwelcome compromise with Arminianism. Despite the controversy, Amyraldism was never deemed heretical but rather was tolerated as a variant within the Reformed tradition, particularly after the national Synods of Alençon (1637), Charenton (1645), and Loudun (1659) decided against excommunicating Amyraut, provided that his teachings did not lead to further division.

Amyraldism has persisted into modern times, finding resonance among various evangelical groups, including Southern Baptists, the Evangelical Free Church of America, and among Anglicans, particularly in the Diocese of Sydney, Australia. It offers a middle ground between strict Calvinism and Arminianism, especially in its approach to the atonement and the universal offer of salvation, while maintaining a Calvinistic framework for understanding election and grace.

Despite its historical significance and continued influence, Amyraldism has been critiqued for potentially undermining the doctrine of limited atonement and for its logical implications regarding the atonement’s efficacy. Critics argue that if Christ died for all but not all are saved, it raises questions about the nature of atonement and divine justice. Nonetheless, Amyraldism represents a thoughtful attempt to grapple with the tensions between divine sovereignty, human responsibility, and the scope of salvation within a Reformed theological context.


So how does 'universal atonement' differ from 'unlimited atonement' would be the question...
 
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BobRyan

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The Bare minimum for CALVINISM is TLP as far as I have seen.
TULI is the four pint version and the only thing left is TULIP

Ok, let me slow down and check through the two views as I think here is where I got my notes from, and may be the source of my misstep.

Here we have "What is Calvinism"

The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints.
That's what I have always heard.
Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Not merely "unable to save himself" but "unable to respond to God's offer of salvation" in classic Calvinism.
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation.
Unconditional election means that God does not elect one and not another due to something God knows about "the one", something that makes the one different from the other.

So it looks a lot like "arbitrary selection" from an Arminian POV
Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response
Not based on anything about the individual past , present or future
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone.
yep that is what they say, unlike 1 John 2:2
All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
yes that is how I have always heard it from Calvinists.
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
exactly
While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them
Indeed an argument can be made for each of them but does it hold up to the test of scripture.


There's the rub
The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Unlimited Atonement cannot possibly be true
I don't think anyone talks about "unlimited atonement" among Calvinists.
 
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BobRyan

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Ok, let me answer this last part off the top of my head as is my instinct and pick up the pieces and see what we have. Go to most Adventist or Christian for that matter, and ask them what is the tendency or mans natural tendency? To sin or not to sin, and they will invariably say 'to sin. Now ask them what they think "Christs natural human tendency was?", and the truth of the matter or the norm is they will tend to look at themselves and say, "it must be to sin" like me...

That has been the issue that I have come across, especially as a moderator in forums with Adventist, but you might be around more sanctified brethren than is my experience, so thus a difference.
Agreed. Many people take popular speculation and substitute it in for divine revelation.

2T 508 He was a mighty petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with like infirmities, tempted in all points even as we are. Jesus endured agony which required help and support from His Father. 2T508.2

Rom 3:9-11 defines the sinful nature that we have – and that Christ did not have.

Ellen White accepts the Rom 3:9-11 text as defining our sinful nature.
God declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). All have the same sinful nature. All are liable to make mistakes. No one is perfect. The Lord Jesus died for the erring that they might be forgiven. It is not our work to condemn. Christ did not come to condemn, but to save.{HP 292.5}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering.—Manuscript 94, 1893 (Manuscript Releases 6:110-112). CTr 213.6 Christ Triumphant 213

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing."



The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}

"Christ felt this sorrow as much more keenly than we can, as his nature was higher and holier than ours. When we think of what the Saviour endured, can we become discouraged in our work? We have a precious truth to bring before the people, and just as long as we have breath, we should lift up our voices and proclaim that the transgression of God’s law is sin.{ST May 27, 1889, par. 4}


"We must not become in our ideas common and earthly, and in our perverted ideas
we must not think that the liability of Christ to Satan's temptations degraded His humanity
and that He possessed the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man.
16MR182.2

Christ "vanguished satan in the same nature (of Adam) over which in Eden Satan obtained
the victory" Youth's Instructor April 25, 1901.

"In taking upon himself man's nature in it's fallen condition Christ did not in the
least participate in its sin.... We should have no misgivivings in regard to the
perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ 5BC 1131 (7a BC 447)

"
as the sinless one his nature recoiled from sin" 2T202

"Christ is our "brother in our infirmities but not in possessing like passions" 2T202
Christ was sinless "not possessing the passions of our human, fallen
nature
" 2T509
 
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reddogs

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Well, we are at the place we were warned would appear as those we thought were close as family, church brethren, and even close friends and even leaders in the church that SOP told us would come..

"The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges."--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463. {ChS 158.1}
 
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Capbook2

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Ok, let me answer this last part off the top of my head as is my instinct and pick up the pieces and see what we have. Go to most Adventist or Christian for that matter, and ask them what is the tendency or mans natural tendency? To sin or not to sin, and they will invariably say 'to sin. Now ask them what they think "Christs natural human tendency was?", and the truth of the matter or the norm is they will tend to look at themselves and say, "it must be to sin" like me...

That has been the issue that I have come across, especially as a moderator in forums with Adventist, but you might be around more sanctified brethren than is my experience, so thus a difference.
I've come to read these two term used regarding the humanity of Jesus, may we know where do Adventist stand.
1. Prelapsarian - Jesus take the human nature of Adam before he sinned, no inside temptation/tendency to sin but subject to outside temptation.
2. Postlapsarian - Jesus take the human nature of Adam after the fall, subject to temptation inside and outside.
 
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