Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

boughtwithaprice · May 23, 2026

chevyontheriver said:
But do we become righteous, or are we declared righteous for the legal purpose of salvation? I think that is the crux of it.

Yes I believe too, that is the crux of it. How do we view grace? Is it the power of God which cleanses us from all sin, or is it cheap grace which “winks at” sin until we die and are finally cleansed?
The “cheap grace” version frequently cites the fact that we are not perfect and cannot completely cease from sin as its justification. “Punn intended” The Power of God position realizes that while we may not live perfectly in this life, we may, by the grace of God, cease from major or “mortal” sins, and if we adhere to the Gospel, we are gradually cleansed from venial sin as well.
The “cheap grace” postion says that there is no difference in sins, all sins are mortal, so to distinguish them lessens the glory of God. Does it really?
If we look at human nature, we behave as we believe. If we believe that all sins are mortal, then we are more likely to commit major aka mortal sins than if we believe there is a distinction. Which does scripture teach?
Matthew 5:16 seems to teach the Power of God position. Let your light shine before men, that they may see the good that you do and give glory to God. In the “cheap grace” position, all that the rest of the world sees is that the “cheap gracer” takes the name of Jesus and then does all that they themselves are doing. The worldly man then reasons, of what good is Jesus? His followers are no different than me? Scripture tells us that if we behave like that, the word of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of us. Romans 2:21-29. Scripture clearly goes against the “cheap grace” position
We may not become perfect, but we can cease from mortal sins, by the grace of God. I can testify as one that had held both positions. I used to hold the “cheap grace” position in that there are no mortal sins as all sin is mortal. I was constantly beset by severe temptations and overcome by mortal sins. It is when I submitted to the full authority of the Apoatolic Church, that the grace of God came upon me, and the sin which previously so easily beset me, was gone.
It was as if the Holy Spirit looked at my mortal sins and said “Hey, I wouldn’t do that if I was you” all I could say was “yes Lord”, and I have ceased from mortal sins for the last seven years. That which I used to do so easily became absurd to me, so much so that I cannot go back, and if I did, it would be as choosing hell over God

David1701 · May 23, 2026

A New Dawn said:
It is true that most of the English translations carry the long ending of Mark, but in my ESV they are bracketed with the caveat that they have not been given the seal of approval even from the scribes that copied it historically. Some left enough room on the manuscript for the long ending, should it be investigated and determined to be considered scripture, but they, themselves, after their investigation, did not consider it scripture.

My NASB also has those verses bracketed with the comment that these verses are not found in the most trustworthy manuscripts and should be approached with caution. They noted the abrupt ending at verse 8 and said that it is likely that the original ending to Mark was lost.

Wes Huff, one of the current manuscripts historians gave a talk/created a video about the long ending of Mark, which I thought was fascinating.

I don't trust translators that call three manuscripts (and one of those is not given any weight by anyone) "the most trustworthy", just because they are reputed to be among the oldest extant (and even that is uncertain). Of those three, the two commonly given weight are Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both of very dubious provenance, which are so replete with errors that they disagree with each other more than 3,000 times, in the gospels alone.

The trouble is that many modern translations are based on a text that is drawn from only a handful of the thousands of available Greek manuscripts. They claim that oldest is best, but the facts do not bear that out. The oldest are the ones most riddled with errors (some of them outrageous); they all come from one region (Egypt, which was a hotbed of heresy, in the early centuries A.D.) and one time period.

If the oldest had been the best, they would have worn out through much use, and been copied, long, long ago; but they were not, unlike the vast majority of Greek manuscripts.

I firmly believe in God's providential preservation of the Scriptures, and that the ending of Mark has not been lost!

I have looked into textual criticism, on and off, for a few decades; and one thing that I have become absolutely convinced of, is that most modern translations are based on a corrupted text, in the New Testament.

I would strongly recommend a book (which can be downloaded free, in PDF format, or purchased in printed form) by Dr. Wilbur Pickering, called "The Identity of the New Testament Text". It goes through the history of New Testament textual transmission of the Greek text and covers the spurious hypotheses of people like Westcott and Hort (R.C. sympathisers in the Church of England), who were so influential in ditching the traditional text (which, although initially based on few manuscripts, has since been found to agree very well with the vast majority) for the so-called "Critical Text".

A New Dawn · May 23, 2026

David1701 said:
I don't trust translators that call three manuscripts (and one of those is not given any weight by anyone) "the most trustworthy", just because they are reputed to be among the oldest extant (and even that is uncertain). Of those three, the two commonly given weight are Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both of very dubious provenance, which are so replete with errors that they disagree with each other more than 3,000 times, in the gospels alone.

The trouble is that many modern translations are based on a text that is drawn from only a handful of the thousands of available Greek manuscripts. They claim that oldest is best, but the facts do not bear that out. The oldest are the ones most riddled with errors (some of them outrageous); they all come from one region (Egypt, which was a hotbed of heresy, in the early centuries A.D.) and one time period.

If the oldest had been the best, they would have worn out through much use, and been copied, long, long ago; but they were not, unlike the vast majority of Greek manuscripts.

I firmly believe in God's providential preservation of the Scriptures, and that the ending of Mark has not been lost!

I have looked into textual criticism, on and off, for a few decades; and one thing that I have become absolutely convinced of, is that most modern translations are based on a corrupted text, in the New Testament.

I would strongly recommend a book (which can be downloaded free, in PDF format, or purchased in printed form) by Dr. Wilbur Pickering, called "The Identity of the New Testament Text". It goes through the history of New Testament textual transmission of the Greek text and covers the spurious hypotheses of people like Westcott and Hort (R.C. sympathisers in the Church of England), who were so influential in ditching the traditional text (which, although initially based on few manuscripts, has since been found to agree very well with the vast majority) for the so-called "Critical Text".

I believe that the new versions (including the NASB and the ESV) include everything from every manuscript. They note what is included from the various manuscripts, some of it bracketed in the text, others included in the footnotes. It’s all included, so to suggest that they are ignoring certain manuscripts for the purpose of altering the narrative is just plain wrong. It is those versions that actually leave out differences between them that, IMO, are altering the narrative.

I might note that while I do tend to consider the NASB and the ESV more accurate, I heavily utilize the BLB, which can call up almost every version of the Bible for comparison.

David1701 · May 23, 2026

A New Dawn said:
I believe that the new versions (including the NASB and the ESV) include everything from every manuscript. They note what is included from the various manuscripts, some of it bracketed in the text, others included in the footnotes. It’s all included, so to suggest that they are ignoring certain manuscripts for the purpose of altering the narrative is just plain wrong. It is those versions that actually leave out differences between them that, IMO, are altering the narrative.

I might note that while I do tend to consider the NASB and the ESV more accurate, I heavily utilize the BLB, which can call up almost every version of the Bible for comparison.

The "Critical Text", upon which the NASB, ESV, NIV and many others are based, dismisses the vast majority of Greek manuscripts under "Byzantine" (Byz. for short), as if they were only one witness, rather than the thousands of independent witnesses that they are. The "Critical Text" is primarily based on just two manuscripts (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus), along with about 50 other supporting manuscripts that somewhat agree with their distinctive readings.

It has often been said that the problem with the "Eclectic Text" (another name for the "Critical Text") is that it is not eclectic at all (not drawn from many sources).

I suggest that you investigate both sides of this issue, because most of the modern translations alter some important doctrines, because of the N.T. text they use, and never in a good way. The following is one example, from a great many.

John 7:8 (W.E.B. - a modern translation, based on the Majority Text)
You go up to the feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, because my time is not yet fulfilled.”

John 7:8 (E.S.V. - based on the "Critical Text")
You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.”

The omission of that little word "yet", in the E.S.V., turns Jesus into a liar, because he very soon afterwards did go up to the feast. This is a textual matter, not a translation matter. The E.S.V. translators have translated the underlying text they used correctly; the problem is that it has been corrupted, in a devastating way.

Jan001 · May 23, 2026

A New Dawn said:
And what is the point of this post? It does not say what you are suggesting it says. You are reading your own personal wants into the Bible. That’s called eisegesis.

What do you think the following scriptures mean?

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, just as God has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They shall certainly not enter my rest,’” and yet his work has been completed since the foundation of the world

Jan001 · May 23, 2026

David Lamb said:
If that is so (and I don't agree that it is), why, when the jail-er at Philippi asked how he could be saved, did the apostles not tell him that if he was baptised, he would be saved? What they actually told him was to believe on the Lord Jesus Ch0rst and he would be saved. Only later, having believed, was he baptized:

30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” 32 So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. 33 He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once. 34 He brought them up into his house and provided a meal and with his household rejoiced at having come to faith in God.

Belief in God must come first. If a person doesn't believe, baptism cannot possibly save him. Both a person's belief and his baptism are necessary to be saved, not just one.

Mark 16:15-16
He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

A New Dawn · May 23, 2026

Jan001 said:
What do you think the following scriptures mean?

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed do enter that rest, just as God has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They shall certainly not enter my rest,’” and yet his work has been completed since the foundation of the world

I am lost at the conclusions you are trying to draw. This thread is about baptism, and you are asking me about predestination.

But to answer your question, just because God chose someone from the foundation of the world does not automatically mean that He chose them for a specific reason. You are just throwing that scripture into the mix because YOU assume that it has to mean that God chose them on the basis of knowing that they were going to be faithful, and yet NOBODY is faithful until AFTER they have been regenerated. And after regeneration, EVERYONE is faithful. Therefore, it doesn’t stand to reason that faithfulness is the reason God chose them.

When you read things into scripture the way you have been doing, you can read any descriptive into the text and suggest that God chose people for any myriad of reasons. How about Love? Maybe God chose them because they were more loving. After all, isn’t God love?

Jan001 · May 23, 2026

David Lamb said:
So where does that leave the various references in the New Testament to knowing, being assured, of eternal life? Just a few examples:

(Eph 1:18) the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

We may hope that we will inherit eternal life with God because we have been enlightened with the truth of his gospel and we obey it.

David Lamb said:
(1Jn 5:13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Does Jesus Christ force people to continue to believe in him (obey him), or do they choose to continue in obedience to him because they believe that he is God's son, and only he can grant them eternal life?

Luke 6:46
Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?

David Lamb said:
(Heb 6:11) And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,

Hebrews 6:9-12
But we are sure in your regard, beloved, of better things related to salvation, even though we speak in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones. 11 We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

They have proven that they love Jesus Christ because they have loved and served their neighbors well. Now, they must continue serving them patiently until they die, and then they will receive the eternal life that God has promised to all who love him until death. John 13:1

Jan001 · May 23, 2026

A New Dawn said:
I am lost at the conclusions you are trying to draw. This thread is about baptism, and you are asking me about predestination.

But to answer your question, just because God chose someone from the foundation of the world does not automatically mean that He chose them for a specific reason. You are just throwing that scripture into the mix because YOU assume that it has to mean that God chose them on the basis of knowing that they were going to be faithful, and yet NOBODY is faithful until AFTER they have been regenerated. And after regeneration, EVERYONE is faithful. Therefore, it doesn’t stand to reason that faithfulness is the reason God chose them.

God knew who his elect were going to be before he created the world, but we will not know if we are until we die. Just because we believed and were baptized years ago, it doesn't mean that we will inherit eternal life. If we disobey his commandments, we deny that he is our savior. He will then deny us eternal life unless we repent before we die.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

Peter denied Jesus three times, but he repented, and therefore was restored to God's grace.

Matthew 26:34
Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, this very night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows, you will deny me three times.”

A New Dawn said:
When you read things into scripture the way you have been doing, you can read any descriptive into the text and suggest that God chose people for any myriad of reasons. How about Love? Maybe God chose them because they were more loving. After all, isn’t God love?

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

God saves the people who keep his commandments until they die. They are the only people who love him.

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.

A New Dawn · May 23, 2026

Jan001 said:
God knew who his elect were going to be before he created the world, but we will not know if we are until we die. Just because we believed and were baptized years ago, it doesn't mean that we will inherit eternal life. If we disobey his commandments, we deny that he is our savior. He will then deny us eternal life unless we repent before we die.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

Peter denied Jesus three times, but he repented, and therefore was restored to God's grace.

Matthew 26:34
Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, this very night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows, you will deny me three times.”

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

God saves the people who keep his commandments until they die. They are the only people who love him.

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.

And baptism is one of the things Jesus commanded us to do after we believe.

Jan001 · May 24, 2026

A New Dawn said:
And baptism is one of the things Jesus commanded us to do after we believe.

Baptism before belief cannot save you.

According to Jesus Christ, baptism makes it possible for you to inherit eternal life.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Baptism spiritually regenerates you, thereby making you Jesus Christ's disciple/follower.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15a
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism saves you after you repent and believe.

1 Peter 3:21a
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you

A New Dawn · May 24, 2026

Jan001 said:
Baptism before belief cannot save you.

According to Jesus Christ, baptism makes it possible for you to inherit eternal life.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Baptism spiritually regenerates you, thereby making you Jesus Christ's disciple/follower.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15a
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism saves you after you repent and believe.

1 Peter 3:21a
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you

Baptism after belief doesn’t save you, either. It is the belief, given to us as a gift from the Father, during regeneration, that saves us.

We already discussed 1Peter 3:21. It is NOT the water that saves, the cleansing work of Christ in the appeal to a new conscience is being likened unto water washing. It is clear from the text IF YOU READ THE WHOLE VERSE (NOT JUST A SNIPPET OF IT TO TRY TO PROVE YOUR POINT), that water baptism is NOT being discussed.

Jan001 · May 24, 2026

A New Dawn said:
Baptism after belief doesn’t save you, either. It is the belief, given to us as a gift from the Father, during regeneration, that saves us.

We already discussed 1Peter 3:21. It is NOT the water that saves, the cleansing work of Christ in the appeal to a new conscience is being likened unto water washing. It is clear from the text IF YOU READ THE WHOLE VERSE (NOT JUST A SNIPPET OF IT TO TRY TO PROVE YOUR POINT), that water baptism is NOT being discussed.

You don't need to read the whole verse to know that baptism saves you! Jesus Christ uses baptism to cleanse us of all our sins.

A baptized person has a clean conscience because his sins were washed away, thereby making him righteous. A righteous person has a clean soul and a clean conscience.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

1 Peter 3:21a
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you

A New Dawn · May 24, 2026

Jan001 said:
You don't need to read the whole verse to know that baptism saves you! Jesus Christ uses baptism to cleanse us of all our sins.

A baptized person has a clean conscience because his sins were washed away, thereby making him righteous. A righteous person has a clean soul and a clean conscience.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

1 Peter 3:21a
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you

His sins are NOT washed away with water! A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because God turned his heart of stone into a heart of flesh and poured His love into it. A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because Christ’s sanctification blankets him and secures his salvation until the time we are no longer in the presence of sin. A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because the Holy Spirit indwells us, guiding us into the right paths and helping conform us into the image of Christ.

Your suggestion is that a physical washing can wash away spiritual impurities. It is impossible. Spiritual battles must be fought with spiritual tools.

Jan001 · May 24, 2026

A New Dawn said:
His sins are NOT washed away with water! A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because God turned his heart of stone into a heart of flesh and poured His love into it. A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because Christ’s sanctification blankets him and secures his salvation until the time we are no longer in the presence of sin. A REGENERATED person has a clean conscience because the Holy Spirit indwells us, guiding us into the right paths and helping conform us into the image of Christ.

He has a clean conscience because his soul was spiritually regenerated/renewed by the water of baptism, the words Jesus commanded, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Baptism washed away his sins; therefore, his sins were forgiven.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26
in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,

A New Dawn said:
Your suggestion is that a physical washing can wash away spiritual impurities. It is impossible. Spiritual battles must be fought with spiritual tools.

The person's soul is cleansed of its impurities by the miraculous baptismal water and words of baptism; it washes away the soul's spiritual impurities. Baptismal water shouldn't be used to clean the dirt from his body.

Jesus Christ uses ordinary things such as water, saliva, and soil as conduits to assist him in his miracles.

John 9:5-7
When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread the mud on the man’s eyes, 7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). Then he went and washed and came back able to see.

Matthew 14:35-36
After the people of that place recognized him, they sent word throughout the region and brought all who were sick to him, 36 and begged him that they might touch even the fringe of his cloak; and all who touched it were healed.

Acts 19:12
so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them.

Acts 5:14-16
et more than ever believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mats, in order that Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he came by. 16 A great number of people would also gather from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.

Jesus Christ chooses how he wants to do his miracles. He chose to use water to wash away our sins, thereby forgiving them. Our response should be, "I thank you, Jesus, for your great mercy."

A New Dawn · May 25, 2026

Jan001 said:
He has a clean conscience because his soul was spiritually regenerated/renewed by the water of baptism, the words Jesus commanded, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Baptism washed away his sins; therefore, his sins were forgiven.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26
in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,

The person's soul is cleansed of its impurities by the miraculous baptismal water and words of baptism; it washes away the soul's spiritual impurities. Baptismal water shouldn't be used to clean the dirt from his body.

Jesus Christ uses ordinary things such as water, saliva, and soil as conduits to assist him in his miracles.

John 9:5-7
When he had said this, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva and spread the mud on the man’s eyes, 7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). Then he went and washed and came back able to see.

Matthew 14:35-36
After the people of that place recognized him, they sent word throughout the region and brought all who were sick to him, 36 and begged him that they might touch even the fringe of his cloak; and all who touched it were healed.

Acts 19:12
so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them.

Acts 5:14-16
et more than ever believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on cots and mats, in order that Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he came by. 16 A great number of people would also gather from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all cured.

Jesus Christ chooses how he wants to do his miracles. He chose to use water to wash away our sins, thereby forgiving them. Our response should be, "I thank you, Jesus, for your great mercy."

Baptism is a physical metaphor that we can understand for a spiritual transformation that we can’t understand. And it’s a physical action we take to tell to all the world that we now identify with Jesus - we have entered a watery grave and are resurrected to new life in Him.

Jan001 · May 25, 2026

A New Dawn said:
Baptism is a physical metaphor that we can understand for a spiritual transformation that we can’t understand. And it’s a physical action we take to tell to all the world that we now identify with Jesus - we have entered a watery grave and are resurrected to new life in Him.

Many people today don't understand that "water" means literal water, not spiritual "water." Jesus Christ commanded his water baptism to spiritually regenerate a person's soul, thereby making him Jesus' disciple/follower. Baptism is the gateway into Jesus Christ's new covenant church, much like circumcision was the gateway into God's first covenant's chosen people.

"Make disciples ...... baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit."

Mark 16:16a
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved;

Acts 22:16
And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

He believed in the gospel.
He accepted baptism as Jesus Christ commanded.
His sins were forgiven.

His sins were not forgiven until he was baptized.

We show the world that we are Christians, not by being publicly baptized, but by loving one another as Jesus Christ commanded us to do.

John 13:34-35
I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

A New Dawn · May 25, 2026

Jan001 said:
Many people today don't understand that "water" means literal water, not spiritual "water." Jesus Christ commanded his water baptism to spiritually regenerate a person's soul, thereby making him Jesus' disciple/follower. Baptism is the gateway into Jesus Christ's new covenant church, much like circumcision was the gateway into God's first covenant's chosen people.

I have to laugh at this because literally everyone knows what water baptism is. What is clear in this discussion is that some don’t know what spiritual baptism is and mistake the teachings of Christ and the apostles for physical actions instead of the spiritual truths they represent.

Let me say it clearer. If physical actions could accomplish a spiritual transformation then there would have been no need for Christ to come and suffer as he did and give His life for us. Circumcision would have done the job.

It is clear throughout the Bible that there is NOTHING we can do to affect our salvation. It was FINISHED on the cross! Anything we physically do is in appreciation for what HE has done for us. And if something IS required of us, then we are no longer saved by grace. For, as Paul said, Romans 11:6 (NASB95) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Jan001 · May 25, 2026

A New Dawn said:
I have to laugh at this because literally everyone knows what water baptism is. What is clear in this discussion is that some don’t know what spiritual baptism is and mistake the teachings of Christ and the apostles for physical actions instead of the spiritual truths they represent.

This is too serious to laugh about.

For 1500 years, Jesus Christ's apostolic church taught his followers that Jesus' water baptism forgives their sins.

Early Church Fathers like Tertullian and Origen wrote that the Christian baptism instituted by Jesus Christ confers immediate forgiveness of sins and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

It wasn't until 500 or so years ago that people rejected Jesus Christ's and his church's teaching and made a new doctrine for themselves.

A New Dawn · May 25, 2026

Jan001 said:
This is too serious to laugh about.

For 1500 years, Jesus Christ's apostolic church taught his followers that Jesus' water baptism forgives their sins.

Early Church Fathers like Tertullian and Origen wrote that the Christian baptism instituted by Jesus Christ confers immediate forgiveness of sins and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

It wasn't until 500 or so years ago that people rejected Jesus Christ's and his church's teaching and made a new doctrine for themselves.

OTHER early church leaders, like Augustine, embraced the same things that have become part of the reformation. Those church leaders you are talking about rejected the same beliefs we, who are in churches descended from the reformation, now embrace, thanks to church fathers, like Augustine who was able to read and understand what Christ and the apostles taught.

Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.

Legend

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Active Member

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Striving to win the prize...

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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