Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

BobRyan · May 7, 2026

"Rapture" from "rapturo" in 1 Thess 4
The "rapture" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to believers being "caught up" (harpazo in Greek, rapiemur or rapturo in the Latin Vulgate) to meet the Lord in the air.

So then: harpazo in Greek. rapturo/rapiemur in Latin Vulgate

Rapturo: Latin term for "Caught up" Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4:17 rapiemur (we will be caught up) or "snatched away".
Harpazo (Greek): The original Greek word used in the New Testament (1 Thess 4:17), which means "to snatch away," that was translated into the

Christ introduces this in John 14:1-3 "I go to prepare a place for you .. I will come again and receive you to myself"
Again in Matt 24 "sends forth His angels to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other"

So today it primarily refers to a rapturing of the saints up in the air and taken to heaven.

Rapture in Historic PreMill goes back to the start
Historic premillennialism, which includes a post-tribulation rapture, is largely as old as Christianity itself, with roots in the first three centuries (A.D. 100-300). Early church fathers such as Papias, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus taught a literal 1,000-year earthly kingdom following the return of Christ

The term refers to "caught up" in 1 Thess 4. Saints taken bodily to heaven after being resurrected or directly translated as both 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 describe.

The “Historic PreMill” form is post Trib

The main text for it is 1 Thess 4:12-18

1 Thess 4:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

BobRyan · May 7, 2026

The reason for this thread is to avoid confusion on the term "rapture"

Many people will say that it did not exist 300 years ago , when in fact 1 Thess 4 came almost 2000 years ago but the term comes from the latin Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4... and the preMill post trib rapture form is the oldest Historic PreMill position.

But people generally know the term today for its PRETrib form so when they say "The Rapture is a recent teaching" they really mean "the PRETRIB Rapture" is recent.

All the postTrib rapture people feel somewhat "missed" in that over simplification of the broader topic.

Rapture is very old, PostTrib Rapture is very old... but preTrib rapture has some claim to being newer.

Maria Billingsley · May 7, 2026

BobRyan said:
So today it primarily refers to a rapturing of the saints up in the air and taken to heaven.

If there are any Saints left to take up!

The problem with rapture theology today is the folding in of a millennium which forces a two rapture scenario. Somewhere along the line , somebody got it wrong and it's spreading created a cottage industry.

Thanks for sharing.
Be blessed.

Aussie52 · May 7, 2026

Recently there has been a lot of scholarly evidence to show that the 'pre-trib' rapture position goes back to early times. It blasts out of the water the view that JN Darby invented it. Having said that, I am not one to be 'pushy' about the pre-trib view. Blessings.

BobRyan · May 8, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
The problem with rapture theology today is the folding in of a millennium which forces a two rapture scenario

I don't understand what you mean by two raptures.. I don't know of any version of the rapture that has two raptures due to the Rev 20 millennium.
Do you mean "two resurrections" for the saints?

In any case all the versions (preTrib, midTrib, postTrib) support one rapture and one literal 1000 year period of time as Rev 20 points out.

Rev 20:5 says "the first resurrection" takes place at the start of that 1000 year period and according to 1 Thess 4:13-18 the rapture happens at that first resurrection. Matt 24:29-31 describes it the same way

Maria Billingsley said:
. Somewhere along the line , somebody got it wrong and it's spreading created a cottage industry.

Rapturo in the Latin Vulgate for 1Thess 4:13-18 came along way before any modern scenarios.

There is a very good "solution" with the postTrib version of the rapture... where the rapture is the exact same physical event as most people know about with preTrib and midTrib. It is the saints resurrected bodily and taken to haven along with the living saints also taken to heaven at that same time. Then literal 1000 year reign with Christ in heaven (while the Earth remains desolate)

Why is there a DESOLATE Earth in our future according to Jer 4 and Jer 25??

OT prophecies make predictions about the future. NT text explain how that maps into reality given the NT context. So then , some parts of the OT paint the picture of Christ accepted as Messiah ruling. Other OT texts show Christ rejected and crucified. But the NT text tells us how it maps into...

www.christianforums.com

see this post on the thread above #1

BobRyan · May 8, 2026

Jeff Carr said:
Recently there has been a lot of scholarly evidence to show that the 'pre-trib' rapture position goes back to early times. It blasts out of the water the view that JN Darby invented it. Having said that, I am not one to be 'pushy' about the pre-trib view. Blessings.

The PreTrib Rapture idea is very popular today but it has 3 big challenges.
1. Matt 24:29-31 days "After the tribulation of those days... He sends His angels to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other"
2. Matt 24, 2 Thess 2 and all the accounts of the rapture in the gospels describe it as NOT being "at any minute" but rather "when you see this sign... well it is not yet... and when you see this sign... well it is not yet". Which is very different from "at any moment"
notice that in Acts 1 when the disciples ask if "now is the time" ... Jesus says not to ask about that just evangelize the world.
3. Jesus said that the gospel has to go to all the world before the end will come rather than "at any moment" and He has the saints suffering a lot of persecution before the end, which we already have in real history. As opposed to "skip the tribulation"

Finally the problem with pre-trib is the "Gospel of the kingdom goes to all the world" first... which still has not happened

===============================

In any case whichever view you take , my point is that the rapture is about taking people to heaven as we see in John 14:1-3 (whether pre, mid, or post trib).

Having said that, there is a postTrib version where people don't go to heaven (I don't recommend that one)... It does not match the "Theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and "in My Father's house are many dwelling places, I go to prepare a place for you..." teaching in John 14 the way the literal, full and complete rapture to heaven teaching does

BobRyan · May 8, 2026

Jeff Carr said:
Recently there has been a lot of scholarly evidence to show that the 'pre-trib' rapture position goes back to early times. It blasts out of the water the view that JN Darby invented it. Having said that, I am not one to be 'pushy' about the pre-trib view. Blessings.

The PreTrib Rapture idea is very popular today but it has 3 big challenges.
1. Matt 24:29-31 says "After the tribulation of those days... He sends His angels to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other"
2. Matt 24, 2 Thess 2 and all the accounts of the rapture in the gospels describe it as NOT being "at any minute" but rather "when you see this sign... well it is not yet... and when you see this sign... well it is not yet". Which is very different from "at any moment"
notice that in Acts 1 when the disciples ask if "now is the time" ... Jesus says not to ask about that just evangelize the world.
3. Jesus said that the gospel has to go to all the world before the end will come rather than "at any moment" and He has the saints suffering a lot of persecution before the end, which we already have in real history. As opposed to "skip the tribulation"

Finally the problem with pre-trib is the "Gospel of the kingdom goes to all the world" first... which still has not happened so then it could not have been "could happen today" as preTrib suggests.

===============================

In any case whichever view you take , my point is that the rapture is about taking people to heaven as we see in John 14:1-3 (whether pre, mid, or post trib).

Having said that, there is a postTrib version where people don't go to heaven (I don't recommend that one)... It does not match the "Theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and "in My Father's house are many dwelling places, I go to prepare a place for you..." teaching in John 14 the way the literal, full and complete rapture to heaven teaching does

Spiritual Jew · May 8, 2026

BobRyan said:
"Rapture" from "rapturo" in 1 Thess 4
The "rapture" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to believers being "caught up" (harpazo in Greek, rapiemur or rapturo in the Latin Vulgate) to meet the Lord in the air.

So then: harpazo in Greek. rapturo/rapiemur in Latin Vulgate

Rapturo: Latin term for "Caught up" Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4:17 rapiemur (we will be caught up) or "snatched away".
Harpazo (Greek): The original Greek word used in the New Testament (1 Thess 4:17), which means "to snatch away," that was translated into the

Christ introduces this in John 14:1-3 "I go to prepare a place for you .. I will come again and receive you to myself"
Again in Matt 24 "sends forth His angels to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other"

So today it primarily refers to a rapturing of the saints up in the air and taken to heaven.

Yes, the word rapture simply refers to being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, but nowhere does scripture say we are taken to heaven after meeting Jesus in the air. Why wouldn't we just meet Jesus in heaven instead of in the air if we were going to end up in heaven? I've yet to see a reasonable answer to that question from anyone who thinks we will be taken to heaven after the rapture. I think it's mostly just pre-tribs, mid-tribs and SDAs like yourself who believe that. In my opinion, it should make you rethink your belief about this when you consider that you share it with pre-tribs and mid-tribs who are wrong about almost everything.

BobRyan said:
Rapture in Historic PreMill goes back to the start
Historic premillennialism, which includes a post-tribulation rapture, is largely as old as Christianity itself, with roots in the first three centuries (A.D. 100-300). Early church fathers such as Papias, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus taught a literal 1,000-year earthly kingdom following the return of Christ

The term refers to "caught up" in 1 Thess 4. Saints taken bodily to heaven after being resurrected or directly translated as both 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 describe.

The “Historic PreMill” form is post Trib

The main text for it is 1 Thess 4:12-18

1 Thess 4:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

You don't have to be Premill in order to believe in a post-trib rapture. You can be Amill like me and believe that, too.

Maria Billingsley · May 8, 2026

BobRyan said:
I don't understand what you mean by two raptures.. I don't know of any version of the rapture that has two raptures due to the Rev 20 millennium.
Do you mean "two resurrections" for the saints?

In any case all the versions (preTrib, midTrib, postTrib) support one rapture and one literal 1000 year period of time as Rev 20 points out.

Rev 20:5 says "the first resurrection" takes place at the start of that 1000 year period and according to 1 Thess 4:13-18 the rapture happens at that first resurrection. Matt 24:29-31 describes it the same way

Rapturo in the Latin Vulgate for 1Thess 4:13-18 came along way before any modern scenarios.

There is a very good "solution" with the postTrib version of the rapture... where the rapture is the exact same physical event as most people know about with preTrib and midTrib. It is the saints resurrected bodily and taken to haven along with the living saints also taken to heaven at that same time. Then literal 1000 year reign with Christ in heaven (while the Earth remains desolate)

Why is there a DESOLATE Earth in our future according to Jer 4 and Jer 25??

OT prophecies make predictions about the future. NT text explain how that maps into reality given the NT context. So then , some parts of the OT paint the picture of Christ accepted as Messiah ruling. Other OT texts show Christ rejected and crucified. But the NT text tells us how it maps into...

www.christianforums.com

see this post on the thread above #1

I am addressing this part of ypur comment:

I don't understand what you mean by two raptures.. I don't know of any version of the rapture that has two raptures due to the Rev 20 millennium.

Correct, it is not part of scripture but it is a huge part of Evangelical Dispensationalism. Take your pick of the plethora of the. " secret rapture " man made doctrine by doing some research.

Be blessed.

BobRyan · May 8, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, the word rapture simply refers to being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, but nowhere does scripture say we are taken to heaven after meeting Jesus in the air.

Jesus does in John 14:1-3 which is why all forms -- preTrib, MidTrib and PostTrib versions (such as the postTrib version that me and 23 Million of my friends affirm) hold to that very detail.

John 14:“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

"My Father's house" Matt 6 "Our Father who is IN HEAVEN"

Spiritual Jew said:
Why wouldn't we just meet Jesus in heaven instead of in the air if we were going to end up in heaven?

WE could ask "why not have Jesus die on the cross the moment Adam sinned and skip all the details that came later?"

The question is not "why didn't God do it differently" but rather "What does scripture say He taught?"

Spiritual Jew said:
I've yet to see a reasonable answer to that question from anyone

The questions of the form "why did HE say it that way?" and "why do it the way the Bible says" don't provide many answers.

Spiritual Jew said:
who thinks we will be taken to heaven after the rapture. I think it's mostly just pre-tribs, mid-tribs and SDAs like yourself

I think you are right in that regard.

But how many postTrib Rapture groups are out there that don't accept that the saints are taken to heaven at the rapture.

It appears to many that only a very tiny group of those who accept the 1Thess 4 rapture , teach that it is the saints being raptured to Earth.

Spiritual Jew said:
In my opinion, it should make you rethink your belief about this when you consider that you share it with pre-tribs and mid-tribs

You have free will of course and can believe as you wish.

Spiritual Jew said:
You don't have to be Premill in order to believe in a post-trib rapture. You can be Amill like me and believe that, too.

Ok that is interesting.

So you propose that the Amill groups teach a postTrib rapture of the saints to?? Earth? Heaven? or ??

So for those groups when someone asks "Do you believe in the rapture" do they say "yes"???

BobRyan · May 8, 2026

Maria Billingsley said:
I am addressing this part of ypur comment:

I don't understand what you mean by two raptures.. I don't know of any version of the rapture that has two raptures due to the Rev 20 millennium.

Correct, it is not part of scripture but it is a huge part of Evangelical Dispensationalism.

I don't know of any dispensationalists that teach "two raptures"

Maria Billingsley said:
Take your pick of the plethora of the. " secret rapture " man made doctrine by doing some research.

I don't know much about the "two raptures" suggestions, but I know that no Bible text speaks of "two raptures" or a 'Two event sequence" where a rapture is later followed by a rapture.

Very often, when people speak of "THE Rapture" they are talking about one singular event not two. Some think it is secret, some don't, some think it is pretRib or midTrib or postTrib etc... But it is still one event in all those variations

Some people feel "the need' to NOT have the rapture described in 2 Thess 2 and 1 Thess 4 be the same event Jesus speaks of in Matt 24 when describing the future to His disciples. So I can see why they may feel the need for TWO rapture events that more closely fit their doctrine.

In Rev 20 there is plenty of room in the text for TWO resurrections. John 5 also allows for that mentioning them both in the same chapter.

But I don't know of any chapter that talks about two 2nd coming rapture events

Maria Billingsley · May 8, 2026

BobRyan said:
I don't know of any dispensationalists that teach "two raptures"

I don't know of any source that discusses "two raptures"

When people speak of "THE Rapture" they are talking about one singular event not two. Some think it is secret, some don't, some think it is pretRib or midTrib or postTrib etc... But it is still one event in all those variations

It is the pre- millennium theological view shared by many Evangelical, Pentecostal and some Baptist denominations. This synopsis may help:

Premillennial dispensationalism distinguishes between two phases of Christ's return. The first is the "secret Rapture", an imminent event where believers are suddenly removed from the Earth to meet the Lord in the air. This "secret" removal functions as a rescue, sparing the church from the seven-year Great Tribulation that follows. During this time, the world faces divine judgment, yet a new group of believers—often referred to as "Tribulation Saints"—emerges.
The second phase is the "visible Second Coming", which occurs at the end of the Tribulation. Christ returning to Earth with His saints to defeat the Antichrist and establish a thousand-year kingdom. While some view the gathering of the Tribulation Saints at this time as a "second" reaping or rapture, most in these denominations see it as the final completion of the harvest before the Millennium begins.

Spiritual Jew · May 8, 2026

BobRyan said:
Jesus does in John 14:1-3 which is why all forms -- preTrib, MidTrib and PostTrib versions (such as the postTrib version that me and 23 Million of my friends affirm) hold to that very detail.

John 14:“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

"My Father's house" Matt 6 "Our Father who is IN HEAVEN"

Jesus is bringing heaven to us. That's why we're meeting Him "in the air" and not in heaven. There's no reason whatsoever for Him to come meet us in the air if He's just then going to turn around and go back to heaven while bringing us with Him.

BobRyan said:
WE could ask "why not have Jesus die on the cross the moment Adam sinned and skip all the details that came later?"

The question is not "why didn't God do it differently" but rather "What does scripture say He taught?"

These are not valid comparisons. Come on.

BobRyan said:
The questions of the form "why did HE say it that way?" and "why do it the way the Bible says" don't provide many answers.

It's a legitimate question, but I can understand why you would want to avoid it.

BobRyan said:
I think you are right in that regard.

But how many postTrib Rapture groups are out there that don't accept that the saints are taken to heaven at the rapture.

It appears to many that only a very tiny group of those who accept the 1Thess 4 rapture , teach that it is the saints being raptured to Earth.

I think most Premil post-tribs would say that we are going to be raptured to meet Jesus in the air and then come down with Him to the earth. This raises the question of why wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth? You think such questions aren't valid, but I disagree.

BobRyan said:
You have free will of course and can believe as you wish.

Of course. And I will.

BobRyan said:
Ok that is interesting.

So you propose that the Amill groups teach a postTrib rapture of the saints to?? Earth? Heaven? or ??

The air. Up in the sky somewhere. That's where Paul said we will meet Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). We're not told where we go from there. The earth will be burned up when Christ returns according to 2 Peter 3:10-12, as I think you agree. So, we won't be going to the earth after that, at least as we know it. Maybe the new earth. Scripture doesn't say. But, what happens at that point after Jesus comes is the judgment, as Jesus indicated in Matthew 25:31-46. Where that will take place exactly is not something we're told. Once the judgment is completed then we will inherit the new heavens and new earth for eternity and unbelievers will be in the lake of fire.

BobRyan said:
So for those groups when someone asks "Do you believe in the rapture" do they say "yes"???

Of course, because the word rapture simply refers to believers being caught up to meet Christ in the air. We all believe that will happen, but just disagree on when it will happen in relation to the tribulation (we don't all agree on what the tribulation is exactly, either, but I guess that's another story) and where we go after being caught up to meet Christ in the air.

BPPLEE · May 8, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, the word rapture simply refers to being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, but nowhere does scripture say we are taken to heaven after meeting Jesus in the air. Why wouldn't we just meet Jesus in heaven instead of in the air if we were going to end up in heaven? I've yet to see a reasonable answer to that question from anyone who thinks we will be taken to heaven after the rapture. I think it's mostly just pre-tribs, mid-tribs and SDAs like yourself who believe that. In my opinion, it should make you rethink your belief about this when you consider that you share it with pre-tribs and mid-tribs who are wrong about almost everything.

You don't have to be Premill in order to believe in a post-trib rapture. You can be Amill like me and believe that, too.

What is the point of a post tribulation rapture?
The rapture is supposed to spare us from the tribulation.

Spiritual Jew · May 8, 2026

BobRyan said:
I don't know of any dispensationalists that teach "two raptures"

There are a couple of them on another forum that I'm on who believe in two raptures, but I don't think there's many at all who believe in that. They base it on their understanding of the book of Revelation and not on any other scripture. So, they see it as something that is only taught in the book of Revelation. Somehow, Paul was not aware of the supposed second rapture when he wrote 1 Thessalonians 4. It's a ridiculous belief, obviously.

Spiritual Jew · May 8, 2026

BPPLEE said:
What is the point of a post tribulation rapture?
The rapture is supposed to spare us from the tribulation.

What is your understanding of "the tribulation" exactly? Not everyone has the same understanding of what it is exactly. If you're talking about a 7 year period of tribulation that some believe in or anything like that, then we are never told that we would be spared from anything like that.

What we are to be spared from is the wrath and destruction that will occur on the day that Jesus comes as a thief in the night, as Paul explained here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

On the day that the Lord Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, the rapture will first occur and then "sudden destruction" will come upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape". But, we will escape and be spared from that wrath and destruction because, as Paul pointed out a few verses later, we are not appointed to wrath. Peter also wrote about that day and described the destruction as being caused by fire coming upon the entire earth. No unbelievers will escape that, but we (believers) all will escape it when we are caught up to meet Christ in the air.

WilliamLhk · May 20, 2026

BobRyan said:
Rev 20:5 says "the first resurrection" takes place at the start of that 1000 year period and according to 1 Thess 4:13-18 the rapture happens at that first resurrection. Matt 24:29-31 describes it the same way

Incorrect. Rev. 20:5 is not a rapture-to-the-clouds event, doesn't even hint at it.

The correct meaning of protos/"first" is "foremost": that is, "first-in-preeminence," not first in order. For example, the Two Witnesses will be raised from the dead well before the Rev. 20 saints will be.

BPPLEE · May 21, 2026

Spiritual Jew said:
What is your understanding of "the tribulation" exactly? Not everyone has the same understanding of what it is exactly. If you're talking about a 7 year period of tribulation that some believe in or anything like that, then we are never told that we would be spared from anything like that.

What we are to be spared from is the wrath and destruction that will occur on the day that Jesus comes as a thief in the night, as Paul explained here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

On the day that the Lord Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, the rapture will first occur and then "sudden destruction" will come upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape". But, we will escape and be spared from that wrath and destruction because, as Paul pointed out a few verses later, we are not appointed to wrath. Peter also wrote about that day and described the destruction as being caused by fire coming upon the entire earth. No unbelievers will escape that, but we (believers) all will escape it when we are caught up to meet Christ in the air.

If we are spared from the wrath of God then the rapture will come in the middle of the 7 years. There will be 3 and 1/2 years of tribulations and 3 and 1/2 years of the wrath of God.

The Liturgist · May 21, 2026

Focus on being spared from the tribulation becomes irrelevant if one dies before it, and presumes a premillenial scenario; what we should be doing is repenting so that we will be declared a worthy and faithful servant by Christ Pantocrator at the Last Judgement rather than being cast into the outer darkness.

WilliamLhk · May 21, 2026

The Liturgist said:
Focus on being spared from the tribulation becomes irrelevant if one dies before it, and presumes a premillenial scenario; what we should be doing is repenting so that we will be declared a worthy and faithful servant by Christ Pantocrator at the Last Judgement rather than being cast into the outer darkness.

Jesus told us to watch for the signs of His coming Parousia, and the great tribulation includes many of those signs.

Define the Rapture and history of various versions of it

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