The Unpardonable Sin

Studyman said:

Carl,

I would ask you to consider something here. If God created mankind with the ability to choose, and then gave them a LAW that says, "Thou Shall Not", which is what God did. By virtue of the LAW itself, Good and Evil come into existence. Adam can choose to obey the LAW, which is (Good), or Adam can choose to disobey the LAW, which is (EVIL).

Can you see that by virtue of the Commandment itself, given to a being with the capacity to choose, Good and Evil are created. As God Himself declares.

15 See, I have set (God/Christ has set) before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 "In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments", (Good) that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, (Your own flesh) and serve them; (EVIL) 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life (Good) and death (EVIL), blessing and cursing: therefore choose (Good) life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is why this same Spirit of Christ said through Isaiah 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And lastly, the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, was created by this same God. As a man Jesus, the 2nd Adam, never ate of this tree. HE only chose to "eat" the GOOD. As it is written; "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

This helps me to understand the origin of Good and Evil

I hope that you might consider God's Words in this matter.

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Evil already existed, before Adam and Eve sinned. Satan's heart had already been lifted up with pride, Satan had also lied to Eve and had tempted her to sin, all of which is evil.

David1701 said:

Evil already existed, before Adam and Eve sinned. Satan's heart had already been lifted up with pride, Satan had also lied to Eve and had tempted her to sin, all of which is evil.

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True. Evil existed, but not to Adam and Eve. It was only after a Law was given to them, that evil existed to them.

The point I am making is that Evil didn't exist for them until God gave them a Law. A law creates a choice that wouldn't exist without the Law.

Satan disobeyed, which is not possible without Law.

Sin is not possible without Law.

Is this not truth

Studyman said:

True. Evil existed, but not to Adam and Eve. It was only after a Law was given to them, that evil existed to them.

The point I am making is that Evil didn't exist for them until God gave them a Law. A law creates a choice that wouldn't exist without the Law.

Satan disobeyed, which is not possible without Law.

Sin is not possible without Law.

Is this not truth

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What law did Satan disobey?

I suppose that if you consider conscience as a kind of law, then sin is impossible without law, but it doesn't have to be a written or spoken law.

David1701 said:

What law did Satan disobey?

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Why does it matter? My post is in response to the question, "Did God create evil?".

Did satan disobey? How is it possible to disobey without Law?

David1701 said:

I suppose that if you consider conscience as a kind of law, then sin is impossible without law, but it doesn't have to be a written or spoken law.

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I would make it clear that we are talking about God's Law. And how a man comes to know what God's Law is, is irrelevant, wouldn't you agree?

It is possible that holy angels altered their worship, to God's glory and power but not Him and instead, themselves.

If they want to enslave and somehow kill God, He had to judge, and produce evil, I am supposing the fire of Hell.

Retributive evil, is better than just letting them go on, God is source and has the right to stop evil, and that stopping is evil not sinful.

Studyman said:

Why does it matter? My post is in response to the question, "Did God create evil?".

Did satan disobey? How is it possible to disobey without Law?


I would make it clear that we are talking about God's Law. And how a man comes to know what God's Law is, is irrelevant, wouldn't you agree?

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Well, to be clear, God did not create moral evil. Evil is not something with an independent existence; it is a corruption of what is good (a lie is the corruption of a truth; cruelty is a corruption of kindness, etc.) and what God created was, in its original, created form, very good. Besides which, what God creates is according to his nature, in which there is no evil at all.

David1701 said:

Well, to be clear, God did not create moral evil. Evil is not something with an independent existence; it is a corruption of what is good (a lie is the corruption of a truth; cruelty is a corruption of kindness, etc.) and what God created was, in its original, created form, very good. Besides which, what God creates is according to his nature, in which there is no evil at all.

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Well, you have your religion. But God did create a LAW for free will beings. And to choose to obey God, of our own free will, is certainly "Good", and something God considers Holy, at least according to Scriptures. As HE could have created us without the capacity to chose to disobey. But HE wants men to "Choose" Him. He doesn't want robots, as HE isn't a Robot.

So if someone has convinced you that it is a "moral evil" for God to create beings with free will, just as HE has free will, and then creates for them a choice, "to see of they will walk in His Ways", or the ways of another, I don't know what to say.

It seems prudent to point out that God has free will, and HE is free to do anything HE wants, at any time He wants. Yet HE places, on His own Free will, limitations. Like Longsuffering and Compassion and Just Judgment. No one forced these limitation on God, HE placed them on Himself of His own free will. How then is it evil for human beings HE created with free will, to instruct and desire that they too, place limitations on themselves, voluntarily, of their own free will.

My point was that when God created a Law, "thou shall not", and gives it to a free will being, "Good and Evil" come to existence by virtue of the Law itself. How can it not?

Carl Emerson said:

Sounds like My God is Holy and yours is not !

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Sounds like yours is out of control, powerless to stop evil and needs excuses

Oh well

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Sounds like yours is out of control, powerless to stop evil and needs excuses

Oh well

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May God's Blessing rest upon you.

Studyman said:

Well, you have your religion. But God did create a LAW for free will beings. And to choose to obey God, of our own free will, is certainly "Good", and something God considers Holy, at least according to Scriptures. As HE could have created us without the capacity to chose to disobey. But HE wants men to "Choose" Him. He doesn't want robots, as HE isn't a Robot.

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Of course men are not robots, and God certainly is not. Robots have no will.

As far as "free" will is concerned, you need to define your terms, because there are several different definitions of "free" will. So, what do you mean by "free" will?

So if someone has convinced you that it is a "moral evil" for God to create beings with free will, just as HE has free will, and then creates for them a choice, "to see of they will walk in His Ways", or the ways of another, I don't know what to say.

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I said nothing about it being a "moral evil" for God to create beings with a free will (and, as I said, you need to define what you mean by "free" will).

It seems prudent to point out that God has free will, and HE is free to do anything HE wants, at any time He wants. Yet HE places, on His own Free will, limitations. Like Longsuffering and Compassion and Just Judgment. No one forced these limitation on God, HE placed them on Himself of His own free will. How then is it evil for human beings HE created with free will, to instruct and desire that they too, place limitations on themselves, voluntarily, of their own free will.

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As above, which definition of "free" will do you go by?

My point was that when God created a Law, "thou shall not", and gives it to a free will being, "Good and Evil" come to existence by virtue of the Law itself. How can it not?

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God created everything "very good", so created good already existed, before God gave Adam and Eve the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Even in Adam and Eve, evil came to be, before (even if only immediately before) they broke the command not to eat of the forbidden fruit. How do we know this? Because the evil desire to break God's command necessarily preceded the sinful act. The will is a slave to the strongest desire, at any given moment. In that sense, the will is not, and can never be, free.

Studyman said:

My point was that when God created a Law, "thou shall not", and gives it to a free will being, "Good and Evil" come to existence by virtue of the Law itself. How can it not?

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Because God evidenced Himself through creation way before the Law was given and in fact will judge mans response to this.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God doesn't need the Law to judge.

Carl Emerson said:

Right - sadly not all translators make this distinction and open the door to seeing our Holy God as morally Evil.

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They are wrong.
He is where it all began.
He points that out and is not shy about it.
Yet before humanity was created, angels existed. They, like humans were given the ability to choose their own path.
Moral evil is the result of angelic and human pride making wrong choices. I know you, understand. Those who attempt to assign moral evil to faultless creator don't have a proper relationship with the one God.

Evil existed before man.
It did not begin in the garden.

You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:13-16 (NASB)

Christ tells us where evil began in John, 8:43
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Palmfever said:

They are wrong.
He is where it all began.
He points that out and is not shy about it.
Yet before humanity was created, angels existed. They, like humans were given the ability to choose their own path.
Moral evil is the result of angelic and human pride making wrong choices. I know you, understand. Those who attempt to assign moral evil to faultless creator don't have a proper relationship with the one God.

Evil existed before man.
It did not begin in the garden.

You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:13-16 (NASB)

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Thanks for you post.

Apart from my study of scripture Jesus appeared to me when I was about 8 years old and I know there is no Evil in Him.

Attributing Evil to God to me seems to pretty much be blasphemy.

Carl Emerson said:

Thanks for you post.

Apart from my study of scripture Jesus appeared to me when I was about 8 years old and I know there is no Evil in Him.

Attributing Evil to God to me seems to pretty much be blasphemy.

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I agree.
Why would any 'Christian' profess faith in the god of evil. The are confused and lost. Children of the originator of evil, Satan.

Carl Emerson said:

Thanks for you post.

Apart from my study of scripture Jesus appeared to me when I was about 8 years old and I know there is no Evil in Him.

Attributing Evil to God to me seems to pretty much be blasphemy.

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You merely perceive God as inferior to evil

God is far greater than anything in His creation.

Not one single thing exists in creation without the specific intentions of God

A God who has to be carved away from anything in creation simply is no God at all. Merely an isolated protected imagination.

We learn to thank God in all things, hard as it may be when confronted with evil

Thankfully the god of this world is merely a little g god. That god is also here under Divine Judgements and will have a final chapter that all of us participated in

Studyman said:

I was hoping you might consider my post, and address what was actually written.

The answer to your question, in my understanding, is detailed in my post.

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God did not make evil so you could choose and therefore affirm your personal self worth and in that, validate your eternal reward. That kind of setup is commonly known as works salvation.

Unfortunately for works promoters exactly none of us are going to escape the fact that evil comes from within, no matter what works come out of that fact. Paul was very specific about this for himself in Romans 7. Particularly v 21 stating whenever he did good evil was still present with him.

At least Paul was honest about it and didn't try to slide past the obvious issues of internal evil. He didn't try to justify it, but quite rightfully condemned it.

Problem with our reading scripture is we only want the goid side appl uh to us but NEVER EVER the bad parts.

God actually hid the good parts in the dark.

When we come before God honestly, with evil present therein, our reward is already in hand.

Honesty

Palmfever said:

I agree.
Why would any 'Christian' profess faith in the god of evil. The are confused and lost. Children of the originator of evil, Satan.

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You should learn not to confuse people with devils

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You merely perceive God as inferior to evil

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Nothing could be further from the Truth.

Have a great day.

David1701 said:

Of course men are not robots, and God certainly is not. Robots have no will.

As far as "free" will is concerned, you need to define your terms, because there are several different definitions of "free" will. So, what do you mean by "free" will?

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I think there is only 1 definition of free will promoted in Scriptures, but I do agree with you, that in this world's religious system, there are many differing doctrines and definitions promoted, depending on which religious sect is promoting them.

According to the Scriptures, "free will" as given to Adam and Eve, in my understanding, is the ability to "Believe" something that is true, and also "Believe" something that isn't true. This is what separates humans from animals, in my experience.

In the Garden, there was the voice of all truth, and there was the voice of the father of lies. Adam and Eve had been given the capacity to "Choose" which voice to "believe". And this, in my understanding, to teach us in the way that we should go, as Paul teaches, so we wouldn't make the same free will choice Adam and Eve made, Cain made, Sodom made, the wicked Kings of Israel made, the choices those who fell in the wilderness made.

And I "Believe" this "because" it is written in the Holy Scriptures God Himself inspired, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

And Paul also says, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Clearly indicating that men have the capacity resist the wiles of the devil, as well as the capacity to succumb to the wiles of the devil. "Free Will".

David1701 said:

I said nothing about it being a "moral evil" for God to create beings with a free will (and, as I said, you need to define what you mean by "free" will).

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You imply in your post that my understanding of where evil came from, is a "moral evil". And certainly there is within me the capacity to "believe" a moral evil.

But it would be great if you would just address what happened when God gave to Adam and Eve, the first, "Thou shall not". "
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".

So wouldn't you then agree that to "Believe God" and "not eat" is Good? But to NOT believe God, "and eat" was Evil?

And didn't God confirm this very thing to Abraham's Children?

Deut. 30: 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

How is this not the exact same thing God set before Adam and Eve?


16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

How is this not the exact same thing God gave to Adam and Eve? And where are they my friend? Are they not returned to the earth, waiting for the return of their Savior?

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore "choose life", that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

How can men imply or suggest that this is not God's Truth, or that it is not "Good" that men have been given a choice to, as Paul teaches, yield yourselves servants to obey, God's voice, or the other voice in the garden God placed us in.

David1701 said:

God created everything "very good", so created good already existed, before God gave Adam and Eve the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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The tree God Created, and planted in the Garden. In your religion, was that not also "Good"?

David1701 said:

Even in Adam and Eve, evil came to be, before (even if only immediately before) they broke the command not to eat of the forbidden fruit. How do we know this? Because the evil desire to break God's command necessarily preceded the sinful act. The will is a slave to the strongest desire, at any given moment. In that sense, the will is not, and can never be, free.

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Yes, there are voices in the world God placed us in that promote all manner of doctrines, philosophies and gospels. Including the philosophy that humans do not have the capacity to refuse the evil and choose the good. But according to the Holy Scriptures, the is One human who did just that. And HE is the Author and Finisher of my Faith, and Noah's, and Abraham's, and Caleb's, and Daniel's, and Shadrach's, and Zacharias, and Simeon, and James, and Paul, and Matthew, and Peter, as we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. As it is also written:

Heb. 12: 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that "is set before us",

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So it is true that there are many other voices in the garden God placed me in, who profess to know God, who try to discourage men from "Believing" God's Word, and choose instead to "Believe" the many different doctrines, philosophies and teachings of this world's religious system instead. But I advocate that a man turn away from the "course of this world", and "Yield ourselves" to God, to Love Him, to walk in His Ways, like Jesus did.

Of our own free will.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

God did not make evil so you could choose and therefore affirm your personal self worth and in that, validate your eternal reward. That kind of setup is commonly known as works salvation.

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You have your adopted religion. I'm not really interested in this world's religious system or their many differing philosophies. I am happy to discuss what is actually written in the Holy Scriptures though, in search of God's Truth.

Who created the Tree of Good and Evil? Who placed it in the Garden? Who create a Law forbidding to eat from it? Who created Adam and Eve? Who created the serpent?

I am fine accepting the One and only True Answer to these questions?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Unfortunately for works promoters exactly none of us are going to escape the fact that evil comes from within, no matter what works come out of that fact. Paul was very specific about this for himself in Romans 7. Particularly v 21 stating whenever he did good evil was still present with him.

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Yes, we are influenced by the "many" voices that surround us, "who profess to know God", to "believe" things about God that are not true. This belief, AKA, "Leaven", grows within us, and manifests itself through our "Works". Paul details this perfectly in Rom. 7.

Paul also details for us the remedy for this affliction, but this world's religious system, the "other voice" in the garden, doesn't like to consider all of Paul's words, just his words they can wrest/twist to justify the philosophy or doctrines of a specific religious sect. It seem prudent to consider Paul's remedy for the affliction he has just detailed.

Rom. 7: 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! "who shall deliver me" from the body of this death?

25 I "thank God" through "Jesus Christ our Lord". So then with "the mind" (from within) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh "the law of sin".

1 There is therefore now no condemnation "to them" which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For "the law of the Spirit of life" in Christ Jesus (What LAW was in Christ Jesus, will you deny that it was the LAW of God?)

hath made me free "from the law of sin and death".

Is this not the exact same thing the Spirit of the Same Christ said through Ezekiel?

Ez. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Oh Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death)

21 But "if the wicked" will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right ( with his mind, "Serve the Law of God"), he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: "in his righteousnes"s that "he hath done" he shall live. (There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Sadly, "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have been beguiled by the "other voice" in the garden, to reject this truth of God, and their minds have become "corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ".

BelieveItOarKnot said:

At least Paul was honest about it and didn't try to slide past the obvious issues of internal evil. He didn't try to justify it, but quite rightfully condemned it.

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The part you are ignoring and omitting is the remedy Paul gave us to cure this eternal evil. But like Jesus said, men hide from much of the Light, the Word of God, to preserve and justify their internal evil. Jesus said it is because they love evil.

I have found in me the same capacity to love evil, but I want to do truth with all my heart. So I come to the Light, the Word of God, for the very purpose of exposing and making manifest the evil, the imaginations "and every high thing that exalteth itself "against the knowledge of God", and bringing into captivity "every thought" to the obedience of Christ;

But this takes commitment, self denial, diligence and patient continuance in well doing. All "Works" that are despised and rejected by the "many" who come in Christ's Name". The Jesus "of the Bible" warns about this, for those seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Problem with our reading scripture is we only want the goid side appl uh to us but NEVER EVER the bad parts.

God actually hid the good parts in the dark.

When we come before God honestly, with evil present therein, our reward is already in hand.

Honesty

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Yes, we need to ask ourselves, "Why do we reject and despise so much of God's Word, to the point that we omit them from our mind and heart?" Jesus gives us the answer in John 3: 19-21.

Men are quick to accuse others, but not so quick to apply God's Word to themselves.