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Lucifer and Satan are not the same

Dublin.Rules.89

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The popular image of the Devil is a blend of ancient folklore, mistranslations, and epic poetry rather than strict biblical text. The idea of the Devil being a beautiful, fallen angel named Lucifer, reigning over a fiery underworld, comes almost exclusively from literary works like John Milton’s Paradise Lost and Dante Alighieri’s Inferno.

In the original Hebrew Bible, the word translated as "Lucifer" is helel, which simply translates to "shining one" or "morning star" (referring to the planet Venus). It was used in the Book of Isaiah as a mocking taunt against the King of Babylon, who had grown too arrogant. It was never intended as a proper name for the Devil.

The mistranslation The shift happened in the 4th century when St. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate). He translated the Greek word for morning star as Lucifer (which in Latin means "light-bearer"). Centuries later, early Church theologians read this translation and mistakenly connected the Isaiah passage to the Devil, turning a poetic metaphor into a formal name.

And on a final note Jesus is called the morningstar in Revelation and just so everyone know's I am not saying saying there is know devil I am saying Lucifer and Satan are not the same that is all.
 

HARK!

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The Liturgist

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Thank you for this interesting contribution.

It would be more accurate to say that the application of the word Lucifer to Satan as a proper name is a potentially misleading error resulting from the Latin translation, and is problematic because there were multiple Christian martyrs named Lucifer (who spoke Latin and Greek and who predated even the Vetus Latina, the precursor to the Vulgate) and also a fourth century bishop named Lucifer of Cagliari, who is venerated as a saint on Sardinia although not universally, but said bishop was not an Arian; he was however a fan of Origen and there was no love lost between him and St. Jerome (who disliked Origen, on the other hand, some very important fourth century fathers like the Cappadocians (St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologian) respected Origen immensely, and also sought to create an anthology of the more useful writings of Origen, excluding Origen’s wackier … speculation).

The problem now is that if we mention these early Christians people will incorrectly assume they named themselves after the devil.

I posted a thread on this subject in General Theology many years ago, which I could link you to if you wished to read my arguments.

+

However, where we have to be careful in all of this is that because people began to associate Lucifer with the devil, some people absolutely up to no good, actual devil worshippers called “Luciferians” and others, used the word in that context, so while the word did not refer to Satan in the Early Church except in the Latin translations of certain Old Testament verses that refer to the devil and to Nebuchadnezzar, it does now, so you know, we don’t want to go out in public saying things like “Lucifer is good!” because over time, words can change their meanings, and meanings their words, and right now, errors of historic etymology aside, that would absolutely convey the wrong idea. Indeed in my original thread, I had to repeatedly clarify that I was not denying the evil nature of the devil or that the Bible verse in question referred to the devil and several members erroneously assumed I was making some kind of deranged statement.

Its unfortunate that the word Lucifer became used to refer to the devil, and it would be nice if we could remind people that early Christian martyrs who died for Christ were named Lucifer, but unfortunately, we cannot correct every wrong of the past. For example, its unfortunate that Digital and Tru64 UNIX are no longer being developed, or IRIX and SGI’s lovely graphics workstations and servers, which generated the cgi for Jurassic Park and also had a cameo (“this is a UNIX system! I know UNIX!”) along with photogenic Connection Machines in the control room, but I can’t fix that either, so to some extent we have to accept this, but what we can do is make people aware of the Latin-specific context. Also the NIV and some other recent Bibles avoid translating the word in question as Lucifer.
 
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Dublin.Rules.89

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Thank you for this interesting contribution.

It would be more accurate to say that the application of the word Lucifer to Satan as a proper name is a potentially misleading error resulting from the Latin translation, and is problematic because there were multiple Christian martyrs named Lucifer (who spoke Latin and Greek and who predated even the Vetus Latina, the precursor to the Vulgate) and also a fourth century bishop named Lucifer of Cagliari, who is venerated as a saint on Sardinia although not universally, but said bishop was not an Arian; he was however a fan of Origen and there was no love lost between him and St. Jerome (who disliked Origen, on the other hand, some very important fourth century fathers like the Cappadocians (St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologian) respected Origen immensely, and also sought to create an anthology of the more useful writings of Origen, excluding Origen’s wackier … speculation).

The problem now is that if we mention these early Christians people will incorrectly assume they named themselves after the devil.

I posted a thread on this subject in General Theology many years ago, which I could link you to if you wished to read my arguments.

+

However, where we have to be careful in all of this is that because people began to associate Lucifer with the devil, some people absolutely up to no good, actual devil worshippers called “Luciferians” and others, used the word in that context, so while the word did not refer to Satan in the Early Church except in the Latin translations of certain Old Testament verses that refer to the devil and to Nebuchadnezzar, it does now, so you know, we don’t want to go out in public saying things like “Lucifer is good!” because over time, words can change their meanings, and meanings their words, and right now, errors of historic etymology aside, that would absolutely convey the wrong idea. Indeed in my original thread, I had to repeatedly clarify that I was not denying the evil nature of the devil or that the Bible verse in question referred to the devil and several members erroneously assumed I was making some kind of deranged statement.

Its unfortunate that the word Lucifer became used to refer to the devil, and it would be nice if we could remind people that early Christian martyrs who died for Christ were named Lucifer, but unfortunately, we cannot correct every wrong of the past. For example, its unfortunate that Digital and Tru64 UNIX are no longer being developed, or IRIX and SGI’s lovely graphics workstations and servers, which generated the cgi for Jurassic Park and also had a cameo (“this is a UNIX system! I know UNIX!”) along with photogenic Connection Machines in the control room, but I can’t fix that either, so to some extent we have to accept this, but what we can do is make people aware of the Latin-specific context. Also the NIV and some other recent Bibles avoid translating the word in question as Lucifer.
You went even deaper than I did, I was just reading a interesting article...good read.
 
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Blueprints

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The popular image of the Devil is a blend of ancient folklore, mistranslations, and epic poetry rather than strict biblical text. The idea of the Devil being a beautiful, fallen angel named Lucifer, reigning over a fiery underworld, comes almost exclusively from literary works like John Milton’s Paradise Lost and Dante Alighieri’s Inferno.

In the original Hebrew Bible, the word translated as "Lucifer" is helel, which simply translates to "shining one" or "morning star" (referring to the planet Venus). It was used in the Book of Isaiah as a mocking taunt against the King of Babylon, who had grown too arrogant. It was never intended as a proper name for the Devil.

The mistranslation The shift happened in the 4th century when St. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin (the Vulgate). He translated the Greek word for morning star as Lucifer (which in Latin means "light-bearer"). Centuries later, early Church theologians read this translation and mistakenly connected the Isaiah passage to the Devil, turning a poetic metaphor into a formal name.

And on a final note Jesus is called the morningstar in Revelation and just so everyone know's I am not saying saying there is know devil I am saying Lucifer and Satan are not the same that is all.

1. You are mistaken about Isa. 14:12 (into Latin or English (transliteration of the Latin word, "lucifer")), being a "mistranslation". The underlying Hebrew word is "heylel" [H1966; "הילל", meaning "splendour"], and comes from:

H1984 "הָלַל", "hâlal", meaning "praise", "shine", "boast" & & El (H410 "אל", "'êl", meaning "God", "mighty", "strength")​
Others see connections with:​
H353 "איל", "'ĕyâl", meaning "strength", "help" & El (H410 "אל", "'êl", meaning "God", "mighty", "strength")​
H3213 "וְהֵילֵל֙", "wə·hê·lêl" (see Eze. 21:12), meaning "howl, wail, cry, lament"​
However, the context of Isa. 14, would link the word to brightness, outshining glory, resplendent in shining or to be praised, like as a reflection of the Glory of God's light / character.​
The latin word "lucifer" (meaning "light-bearing") is a combination of the Latin words "lux" (genetive of lucis; meaning 'light') & "ferre" (meaning 'to carry, bear'), which translates the Hebrew just fine.​

2. You are mistaken that the Hebrew word means "morning star", or that the Latin "lucifer" means "morning star" when neither mean that phrase.

Yet, the text clearly reads, "O lucifer [heylel] , son of the morning" (hëylël Ben-shächar) (הילל בן שחר).​
The words for "Venus" (נוגה), or even "star" (כוכב) is / are completely absent from the text under consideration. The word "Morning" is also different from the night "stars" (Nehemiah 4:21). The Hebrews of the Bible never identified "Venus" with the words "heylel" inspite of what later Talmudic scholars suggest. What the Greeks thought is also basically non-sequitur on the subject.​
See also:​
H5054, "נְגֹהָה", "negôhâh", meaning "splendor - brightness" - see Isaiah 59:9.​
H5053 (Syriack), "נגהּ', "nôgahh', meaning "morning", "brightness", "daylight" - see Daniel 6:19.​
H5052, "נֹגַהּ", "nogah", meaning "brightness" - see 1 Chronicles 3:9, 14:6.​
The word "nogah" is also the present Hebrew word for the planet "Venus" in the Hebrew language.​
H5051, "נגהּ", "nôgahh", meaning "brightness", "brilliancy", "bright", "light", "clear", "shining".​
H5050, "נגהּ", "nâgahh", meaning "to shine".​
See also "ἑωσφόρος", "[h]eosphoros", meaning "light of dawn" "bearing"; From ἕως (héōs, "dawn") +‎ -φόρος (-phóros, "-bearing, -carrying"), from φέρω (phérō, "to bear, to carry").​

Lucifer has never been "the morning star"; for that is for Michael / Jesus Christ / Son of God alone ( Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ), for it is another way of saying the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2; Psalms 19:4-5), the "day dawn ... the day star" (2 Peter 1:19), the light of God (Revelation 21:23; John 1:7, 8:12, 9:5, 12:46, etc). Also, in the NT koine Greek, the words for "the morning star" (Revelation 2:28) are "αστερα τον πρωινον" (astera ton prwinon), or "the bright and morning star", "αστηρ ο λαμπρος και ορθρινος" (aster o lampros kai orthrinos) not "phosphoros" or "eosphoros". When the NT uses the words "day star" (2 Peter 1:19), then it uses koine Greek, "φωσφορος" (phosphoros), but it too represents Jesus Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2; Psalms 84:11, &c) which brings the light (or dawning) of day, not "venus", no matter what scholars say. The word "phosphorus" simply means light-bringing. The fact that others later, hijacked the word to mean "venus", is exactly what I would expect satan to do, to take glory away from the Sun which actually brings the light, to a lowly planet, which merely reflects the light of the sun, to act as a 'star', for it perfectly fits his prideful character.​
The very modern, and current, derivatives of "lucifer", such as "luciferian", all relate to the devil, or satan, or satanic worship or satanists. They do not relate to Nebuchadnezzar, or any ancient king of that kingdom. Other derivatives, like Luciferase, which is a generic term for the class of oxidative enzymes that produce bioluminescense simply refer to light, glowing.​

3. You are mistaken about "lucifer" being a "4th century" idea of "Jerome". The Latin word "lucifer" existed in the pre-Jerome 'vulgates', or "Italic" or "Vetus latina" translations. Jerome, was basically just copying those pre-existing mss, and altering portions to fit Roman dogmas for his latest "vulgate", as Helvidius and Jovinian, and others pointed out. He did not invent the word "lucifer" for Isa. 14:12's translation into Latin. It already existed in such Latin translations for hundreds of years, because it is a perfectly valid word for the translation of the Hebrew "heylel" [H1966; "הילל"]. Consider:

Vetus Latin Collection - 12. Esaias - 1. Introductio. 1-39 (Roger Gryson, 1987-1993), page 397
"... [page 397] C lucifer x mane oriens contritus est in terra qui mittit ad ..."​
"... [page 397] E " (ditto; ie "lucifer") qui " oriebatur confractus " ad terram " inmittebat " ..."​
"... [page 397] H " (ditto; ie "lucifer") " " oribaris corruisti in " "vulnerabas" ..." - Vetus Latina Collection : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The notation (by Roger Gryson) on the same page [page 397], says:​
"... [page 397; Latin] Jo 3,7,13 (23): Jo 1,9/ dictus est enim quidam Lucifer qui cecidit: erat enim angelus, et factus est diabolus; et dixit de illo scriptura: Lucifer qui mane oriebatur cecidit. unde Lucifer? quia illuminatus lucebat. unde autem tenebrosus factus?/Jo 8,44 ..."​
"... [page 397; English Google assisted translation] Jo 3,7,13 (23): Jo 1,9/ for there was a certain one called Lucifer who fell: for he was an angel, and became the devil; and the scripture said of him: Lucifer who rose in the morning fell. Whence came Lucifer? Because he was enlightened, he shone. But whence came he dark?/Jo 8,44 ..."​
Jerome's Latin "Vulgate" (one of them):​
Isa 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes​

4. In Isa. 14:4 KJB, the text clearly states that it is a “proverb,” which is as a “parable” (that which speaks in symbolism, metaphor, &c.), that God is speaking by Isaiah to “the king of Babylon”, who is called “Lucifer” (Heylel). The real ruler over the kingdom (a fallen celestial intelligence, a created angelic being), and not a man. The text is not referring to Nebuchadnezzar II, who became saved by the gospel through Daniels’ faithful life and speech and God’s providences (Dan. 4:1-37 KJB). Nebuchadnezzar II was not even king at the time of the fall of the Kingdom of Babylon, for that was “Belshazzar” (Dan. 5:1-31 KJB).

5. The entire passage is about the person, and city over which the person rules, and is not some vague reference to a 'star' (local planet (2 Kin. 23:5); ie 'Venus', which never has fallen from the sky). See Chapter 13 - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


"... The passage begins by specifically mentioning “the oppressor,” “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4 KJB), which is as the head (Isa. 7:9 KJB) of the kingdom of Babylon, and “gold” (Dan. 2:32,37-38 KJB). This “city” (Babylon) is the capital of Lucifer’s kingdom (Babylon). It is the outshining glory of his pride (Dan. 4:30 KJB), as spoken through his one-time servant Nebuchadnezzar II (before his conversion, salvation).​
Daniel 4:30 KJB - The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?​
The texts go on to speak of “the wicked,” “the rulers” (plural, Isa. 14:5 KJB), and how “he who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.” (Isa. 14:6 KJB)​
These things speak to the ruling spirit (mind / heart / living intelligence) behind the city and kingdom of Babylon, which had sent armies to conquer other nations, but is now (in the context) under assault itself by the Medes / Persians & others, as prophecy said would be (Isa. 13:17; Jer. 25:25, 51:11,28; Dan. 1:21, 2:32,39, 5:26,28,31 KJB) and no other nation comes to its (Babylon’s) aid, since it had aided no other nation previously (thus the golden rule is applied, in what they did to others is done unto them).​
Then, once Babylon is taken by the Medes / Persians, the “whole earth is at rest, and is quiet,” being at peace, and without the fear of Babylon (Isa. 14:7 KJB) attacking or pressuring them through tribute, &c. Those other nations then rejoice, and “break forth into singing.” The “fir trees,” “the choice cedars of Lebanon” (Isa. 14:8 KJB) then speak. Trees in scripture are used as symbols of nations and peoples, and even leadership of nations / peoples (as Nebuchadnezzar II was likened unto; Dan. 4:11,14-16, 20-22,24; Jdg. 9:8-16; Isa. 7:2; Eze. 31:3-18; Luk. 21:29 KJB).​
What they (people of those northern nations, symbolized) say is that since Babylon has fallen (previously the “feller” (one who cuts down) of others) no others have come to attack them. Babylon used the sword of the state (Rom. 13:4 KJB) to conquer others, and now the same sword of the state was used to conquer it (see in example Rev. 13:10 KJB). The golden rule (Mat. 7:12 KJB), “for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Mat. 26:52 KJB), is applied in its true measure of justice & judgment.​
The word “hell” (Isa. 14:9 KJB; Hebrew: [H7585], “שׁאול”, “sh'ôl”, “sheol”, meaning “the grave, pit, place of covered darkness”) is symbolically (“proverb”) used to describe the grave in a personification, as if “hell” were waiting to receive the fallen city Babylon (Isa. 21:9; Jer. 50:15, 51:8 KJB) among the rest of the dead kingdoms (who were without the life of / in Jesus Christ, being dead in trespasses and in sins; Eph. 2:1 KJB), “all the chief ones of the earth,” “their thrones all the kings of the nations” (Isa. 14:9 KJB). Those which are dead in sins, defeated, are those that make up ‘hell’. Dead, defeated, burnt out husks of cities, with their slain, as corpses among the “stones” (cities), as tombstones.​
These other nations that had fallen in sin, symbolically speak (in example) to the city / kingdom of Babylon asking, “Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?” (Isa. 14:10 KJB).​
In other words, those nations that had been conquered and lie destroyed as Babylon now is to be, cry out (as historical witnesses), asking essentially, ‘Are you (Babylon the conqueror) also conquered’? ‘Are you lying in ruins, as we are?’ ‘Are your dead (citizens, soldiers, courtiers, &c.) as heaps upon the ground, and scattered among the fallen ‘stones’ (city walls, buildings, towers, &c.) as ours?’ All this is to say that there is no ‘immortal soul / spirit’ theology to promote here, since the passage is not speaking of such anywhere, but instead paints a prophetic picture using symbols of other nations that lie in ruins, being present examples, of what has now become of Babylon (city / nation) itself. Instead of Babylon being the glory of the Kingdoms, the “golden” kingdom, it had become dross, and came to even greater ruin than others, because of its once lofty height of pride, and the terrible earth-shattering fall in its overthrow by the Medo-Persians. The left-over (remnant) peoples of those overthrown nations, are like worms that crawl over the heaps and ruins of their shattered cities and kingdoms and in witnessing the fall of Babylon, they now proverbially speak to it, and of themselves (as examples).​
All the glory (“pomp”) of Babylon is brought to nothing, and to the death of the grave of which there is no life. All the “noise of thy viols” (Isa. 14:11 KJB), the very “musick” (Dan. 3:5,7,10, 15 KJB) of Babylon is ceased (Zep. 2:5 KJB), even as it had made the music of Israel and other nations to cease (Lam. 5:15; Psa. 137:3 KJB) before. Babylon is now eaten and devoured, plundered, as a rotting corpse, devoured of worms (remnant peoples that come and take pieces of this or that from out of it, as like physical worms do to a rotting corpse), so that all of its riches go flowing out of it. Those of mankind are individually called “worms” (Job 25:6; Psa. 22:6; Isa. 41:14; Mic. 7:17 KJB). The question is, ‘How did that glorious living city, once abundant with movement, musick and mankind, as a shining jewel of the earth, come to be without life, and desolate?’​
The inspiration of God, then transitions from the kingdom and city to the true leadership that has brought all that glory down to nothing; ie. Lucifer (Heylel). This glorious being of once-heavenly intellect, and who was also once the reflector of God’s glory, yet then through his sin (Isa. 14:13-14; Eze. 28:18; 2 Pet. 2:4 KJB), is to come to nothing in the text, and everything he had, given to others. Satan had thought through Nebuchadnezzar II, and other kings of Babylon to raise his own kingdom above all others on the earth, lifting himself up above all through force of might, and conquering, but in the night of debauchery and mental slumbering, when all seemed as peace and safety (quiet and secure) behind massive fortified defenses, in the time of King Belshazzar, pride lifted itself up to heaven, and God judged (Dan. 5:1-31 KJB). Once that occurred, no amount of preparation, or defenses, or armies, of Babylon could hold, and stay, the words / judgment of the eternal and living God. History has repeated in those events once witnessed in Heaven (Rev. 12:7-9 KJB), now seen again in the fall of Babylon (city & kingdom).​
Just as the city of Babylon was brought to ruin, desolation and destruction, so too would Lucifer also be brought to the same condition. Babylon is also a type of the final overthrow of satan’s kingdom (Babylon the great) on earth (Rev. 17-18,20 KJB). Babylon, that had taken “captives” & killed, would itself become captive & killed. So likewise, such also will occur to Lucifer, in the final events of the earth’s history. In its (Babylon the great’s), and his own, destruction, it would not be honoured in death, but remained cursed forever and ever. He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit of God sayeth to the reader. ..."​
 
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Dublin.Rules.89

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1. You are mistaken about Isa. 14:12 (into Latin or English (transliteration of the Latin word, "lucifer")), being a "mistranslation". The underlying Hebrew word is "heylel" [H1966; "הילל", meaning "splendour"], and comes from:

H1984 "הָלַל", "hâlal", meaning "praise", "shine", "boast" & & El (H410 "אל", "'êl", meaning "God", "mighty", "strength")​
Others see connections with:​
H353 "איל", "'ĕyâl", meaning "strength", "help" & El (H410 "אל", "'êl", meaning "God", "mighty", "strength")​
H3213 "וְהֵילֵל֙", "wə·hê·lêl" (see Eze. 21:12), meaning "howl, wail, cry, lament"​
However, the context of Isa. 14, would link the word to brightness, outshining glory, resplendent in shining or to be praised, like as a reflection of the Glory of God's light / character.​
The latin word "lucifer" (meaning "light-bearing") is a combination of the Latin words "lux" (genetive of lucis; meaning 'light') & "ferre" (meaning 'to carry, bear'), which translates the Hebrew just fine.​

2. You are mistaken that the Hebrew word means "morning star", or that the Latin "lucifer" means "morning star" when neither mean that phrase.

Yet, the text clearly reads, "O lucifer [heylel] , son of the morning" (hëylël Ben-shächar) (הילל בן שחר).​
The words for "Venus" (נוגה), or even "star" (כוכב) is / are completely absent from the text under consideration. The word "Morning" is also different from the night "stars" (Nehemiah 4:21). The Hebrews of the Bible never identified "Venus" with the words "heylel" inspite of what later Talmudic scholars suggest. What the Greeks thought is also basically non-sequitur on the subject.​
See also:​
H5054, "נְגֹהָה", "negôhâh", meaning "splendor - brightness" - see Isaiah 59:9.​
H5053 (Syriack), "נגהּ', "nôgahh', meaning "morning", "brightness", "daylight" - see Daniel 6:19.​
H5052, "נֹגַהּ", "nogah", meaning "brightness" - see 1 Chronicles 3:9, 14:6.​
The word "nogah" is also the present Hebrew word for the planet "Venus" in the Hebrew language.​
H5051, "נגהּ", "nôgahh", meaning "brightness", "brilliancy", "bright", "light", "clear", "shining".​
H5050, "נגהּ", "nâgahh", meaning "to shine".​
See also "ἑωσφόρος", "[h]eosphoros", meaning "light of dawn" "bearing"; From ἕως (héōs, "dawn") +‎ -φόρος (-phóros, "-bearing, -carrying"), from φέρω (phérō, "to bear, to carry").​

Lucifer has never been "the morning star"; for that is for Michael / Jesus Christ / Son of God alone ( Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive ), for it is another way of saying the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2; Psalms 19:4-5), the "day dawn ... the day star" (2 Peter 1:19), the light of God (Revelation 21:23; John 1:7, 8:12, 9:5, 12:46, etc). Also, in the NT koine Greek, the words for "the morning star" (Revelation 2:28) are "αστερα τον πρωινον" (astera ton prwinon), or "the bright and morning star", "αστηρ ο λαμπρος και ορθρινος" (aster o lampros kai orthrinos) not "phosphoros" or "eosphoros". When the NT uses the words "day star" (2 Peter 1:19), then it uses koine Greek, "φωσφορος" (phosphoros), but it too represents Jesus Christ, the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2; Psalms 84:11, &c) which brings the light (or dawning) of day, not "venus", no matter what scholars say. The word "phosphorus" simply means light-bringing. The fact that others later, hijacked the word to mean "venus", is exactly what I would expect satan to do, to take glory away from the Sun which actually brings the light, to a lowly planet, which merely reflects the light of the sun, to act as a 'star', for it perfectly fits his prideful character.​
The very modern, and current, derivatives of "lucifer", such as "luciferian", all relate to the devil, or satan, or satanic worship or satanists. They do not relate to Nebuchadnezzar, or any ancient king of that kingdom. Other derivatives, like Luciferase, which is a generic term for the class of oxidative enzymes that produce bioluminescense simply refer to light, glowing.​

3. You are mistaken about "lucifer" being a "4th century" idea of "Jerome". The Latin word "lucifer" existed in the pre-Jerome 'vulgates', or "Italic" or "Vetus latina" translations. Jerome, was basically just copying those pre-existing mss, and altering portions to fit Roman dogmas for his latest "vulgate", as Helvidius and Jovinian, and others pointed out. He did not invent the word "lucifer" for Isa. 14:12's translation into Latin. It already existed in such Latin translations for hundreds of years, because it is a perfectly valid word for the translation of the Hebrew "heylel" [H1966; "הילל"]. Consider:

Vetus Latin Collection - 12. Esaias - 1. Introductio. 1-39 (Roger Gryson, 1987-1993), page 397
"... [page 397] C lucifer x mane oriens contritus est in terra qui mittit ad ..."​
"... [page 397] E " (ditto; ie "lucifer") qui " oriebatur confractus " ad terram " inmittebat " ..."​
"... [page 397] H " (ditto; ie "lucifer") " " oribaris corruisti in " "vulnerabas" ..." - Vetus Latina Collection : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The notation (by Roger Gryson) on the same page [page 397], says:​
"... [page 397; Latin] Jo 3,7,13 (23): Jo 1,9/ dictus est enim quidam Lucifer qui cecidit: erat enim angelus, et factus est diabolus; et dixit de illo scriptura: Lucifer qui mane oriebatur cecidit. unde Lucifer? quia illuminatus lucebat. unde autem tenebrosus factus?/Jo 8,44 ..."​
"... [page 397; English Google assisted translation] Jo 3,7,13 (23): Jo 1,9/ for there was a certain one called Lucifer who fell: for he was an angel, and became the devil; and the scripture said of him: Lucifer who rose in the morning fell. Whence came Lucifer? Because he was enlightened, he shone. But whence came he dark?/Jo 8,44 ..."​
Jerome's Latin "Vulgate" (one of them):​
Isa 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes​

4. In Isa. 14:4 KJB, the text clearly states that it is a “proverb,” which is as a “parable” (that which speaks in symbolism, metaphor, &c.), that God is speaking by Isaiah to “the king of Babylon”, who is called “Lucifer” (Heylel). The real ruler over the kingdom (a fallen celestial intelligence, a created angelic being), and not a man. The text is not referring to Nebuchadnezzar II, who became saved by the gospel through Daniels’ faithful life and speech and God’s providences (Dan. 4:1-37 KJB). Nebuchadnezzar II was not even king at the time of the fall of the Kingdom of Babylon, for that was “Belshazzar” (Dan. 5:1-31 KJB).

5. The entire passage is about the person, and city over which the person rules, and is not some vague reference to a 'star' (local planet (2 Kin. 23:5); ie 'Venus', which never has fallen from the sky). See Chapter 13 - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


"... The passage begins by specifically mentioning “the oppressor,” “the golden city” (Isa. 14:4 KJB), which is as the head (Isa. 7:9 KJB) of the kingdom of Babylon, and “gold” (Dan. 2:32,37-38 KJB). This “city” (Babylon) is the capital of Lucifer’s kingdom (Babylon). It is the outshining glory of his pride (Dan. 4:30 KJB), as spoken through his one-time servant Nebuchadnezzar II (before his conversion, salvation).​
Daniel 4:30 KJB - The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?​
The texts go on to speak of “the wicked,” “the rulers” (plural, Isa. 14:5 KJB), and how “he who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.” (Isa. 14:6 KJB)​
These things speak to the ruling spirit (mind / heart / living intelligence) behind the city and kingdom of Babylon, which had sent armies to conquer other nations, but is now (in the context) under assault itself by the Medes / Persians & others, as prophecy said would be (Isa. 13:17; Jer. 25:25, 51:11,28; Dan. 1:21, 2:32,39, 5:26,28,31 KJB) and no other nation comes to its (Babylon’s) aid, since it had aided no other nation previously (thus the golden rule is applied, in what they did to others is done unto them).​
Then, once Babylon is taken by the Medes / Persians, the “whole earth is at rest, and is quiet,” being at peace, and without the fear of Babylon (Isa. 14:7 KJB) attacking or pressuring them through tribute, &c. Those other nations then rejoice, and “break forth into singing.” The “fir trees,” “the choice cedars of Lebanon” (Isa. 14:8 KJB) then speak. Trees in scripture are used as symbols of nations and peoples, and even leadership of nations / peoples (as Nebuchadnezzar II was likened unto; Dan. 4:11,14-16, 20-22,24; Jdg. 9:8-16; Isa. 7:2; Eze. 31:3-18; Luk. 21:29 KJB).​
What they (people of those northern nations, symbolized) say is that since Babylon has fallen (previously the “feller” (one who cuts down) of others) no others have come to attack them. Babylon used the sword of the state (Rom. 13:4 KJB) to conquer others, and now the same sword of the state was used to conquer it (see in example Rev. 13:10 KJB). The golden rule (Mat. 7:12 KJB), “for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Mat. 26:52 KJB), is applied in its true measure of justice & judgment.​
The word “hell” (Isa. 14:9 KJB; Hebrew: [H7585], “שׁאול”, “sh'ôl”, “sheol”, meaning “the grave, pit, place of covered darkness”) is symbolically (“proverb”) used to describe the grave in a personification, as if “hell” were waiting to receive the fallen city Babylon (Isa. 21:9; Jer. 50:15, 51:8 KJB) among the rest of the dead kingdoms (who were without the life of / in Jesus Christ, being dead in trespasses and in sins; Eph. 2:1 KJB), “all the chief ones of the earth,” “their thrones all the kings of the nations” (Isa. 14:9 KJB). Those which are dead in sins, defeated, are those that make up ‘hell’. Dead, defeated, burnt out husks of cities, with their slain, as corpses among the “stones” (cities), as tombstones.​
These other nations that had fallen in sin, symbolically speak (in example) to the city / kingdom of Babylon asking, “Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?” (Isa. 14:10 KJB).​
In other words, those nations that had been conquered and lie destroyed as Babylon now is to be, cry out (as historical witnesses), asking essentially, ‘Are you (Babylon the conqueror) also conquered’? ‘Are you lying in ruins, as we are?’ ‘Are your dead (citizens, soldiers, courtiers, &c.) as heaps upon the ground, and scattered among the fallen ‘stones’ (city walls, buildings, towers, &c.) as ours?’ All this is to say that there is no ‘immortal soul / spirit’ theology to promote here, since the passage is not speaking of such anywhere, but instead paints a prophetic picture using symbols of other nations that lie in ruins, being present examples, of what has now become of Babylon (city / nation) itself. Instead of Babylon being the glory of the Kingdoms, the “golden” kingdom, it had become dross, and came to even greater ruin than others, because of its once lofty height of pride, and the terrible earth-shattering fall in its overthrow by the Medo-Persians. The left-over (remnant) peoples of those overthrown nations, are like worms that crawl over the heaps and ruins of their shattered cities and kingdoms and in witnessing the fall of Babylon, they now proverbially speak to it, and of themselves (as examples).​
All the glory (“pomp”) of Babylon is brought to nothing, and to the death of the grave of which there is no life. All the “noise of thy viols” (Isa. 14:11 KJB), the very “musick” (Dan. 3:5,7,10, 15 KJB) of Babylon is ceased (Zep. 2:5 KJB), even as it had made the music of Israel and other nations to cease (Lam. 5:15; Psa. 137:3 KJB) before. Babylon is now eaten and devoured, plundered, as a rotting corpse, devoured of worms (remnant peoples that come and take pieces of this or that from out of it, as like physical worms do to a rotting corpse), so that all of its riches go flowing out of it. Those of mankind are individually called “worms” (Job 25:6; Psa. 22:6; Isa. 41:14; Mic. 7:17 KJB). The question is, ‘How did that glorious living city, once abundant with movement, musick and mankind, as a shining jewel of the earth, come to be without life, and desolate?’​
The inspiration of God, then transitions from the kingdom and city to the true leadership that has brought all that glory down to nothing; ie. Lucifer (Heylel). This glorious being of once-heavenly intellect, and who was also once the reflector of God’s glory, yet then through his sin (Isa. 14:13-14; Eze. 28:18; 2 Pet. 2:4 KJB), is to come to nothing in the text, and everything he had, given to others. Satan had thought through Nebuchadnezzar II, and other kings of Babylon to raise his own kingdom above all others on the earth, lifting himself up above all through force of might, and conquering, but in the night of debauchery and mental slumbering, when all seemed as peace and safety (quiet and secure) behind massive fortified defenses, in the time of King Belshazzar, pride lifted itself up to heaven, and God judged (Dan. 5:1-31 KJB). Once that occurred, no amount of preparation, or defenses, or armies, of Babylon could hold, and stay, the words / judgment of the eternal and living God. History has repeated in those events once witnessed in Heaven (Rev. 12:7-9 KJB), now seen again in the fall of Babylon (city & kingdom).​
Just as the city of Babylon was brought to ruin, desolation and destruction, so too would Lucifer also be brought to the same condition. Babylon is also a type of the final overthrow of satan’s kingdom (Babylon the great) on earth (Rev. 17-18,20 KJB). Babylon, that had taken “captives” & killed, would itself become captive & killed. So likewise, such also will occur to Lucifer, in the final events of the earth’s history. In its (Babylon the great’s), and his own, destruction, it would not be honoured in death, but remained cursed forever and ever. He who has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit of God sayeth to the reader. ..."​
I mean know disrespect to you and your responce, I think you were disagreeing with me and that is fine, but your responce is so long, cause your trying to prove your point that I stopped reading. There is such a thing as to big a post and this is one
 
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The Liturgist

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@Blueprints

The fact remains that the word Lucifer is a Latinization and there were early Christians who were not devil worshippers, such as St. Lucifer the Martyr, and the NIV is not wrong in translating the passage as "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

I myself do not dispute that the references apply both to Nebuchadnezzar and the devil, and regard the Karaite Jewish interpretation that there is no devil (they go so far as to say the serpent in the garden of Eden was a particularly cunning snake, which I find, with all due respect to Karaites and bearing in mind that I oppose the persecution they have historically suffered and the continued discrimination they experience in Israel, not a valid interpretation, especially in light of the New Testament which makes it absolutely clear that there is an individual devil, our adversary).

However the use of the Latin name as the definitive proper name for the devil makes no sense, since, as you yourself admitted, it is a translation from the Hebraic Old Testament (and also from the Septuagint, where the Hebrew is translated into Greek as Ἑωσφόρος). The use of the Latin specifically is what I object to, since this is the only case where Christians are consistently using a Latin word in which no original Scriptural text was written and which is not used in the New Testament (which does quote the Septuagint Greek preferentially, but it does not refer to the devil as Lucifer), and the use of this Latin word by non-Latin speaking Christians is very strange, and plays into the tendency for occultists and others to abuse the Latin language for spells and profanations (“Hocus pocus” being a good one, which was a term coined to mock Catholics and Lutherans for their belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, being derived from the very Latin translation of Christ that Martin Luther carved into the table at the Marburg Colloquy, HOC EST CORPVS MEVM).

That said I will give you props for being aware of the Vetus Latina in that most people are not aware of it or of the fact that the Church of Rome intentionally translated the Bible into the second century spoken form of Latin, and again into the fourth century spoken form of Latin, most notably the translation of St. Jerome, as well as translating the liturgy from the Greek; the main difference being the Vetus Latina translated the Septuagint Old Testament and is therefore a second order translation whereas St. Jerome translated from Hebrew and Aramaic books where they existed (at the time, some books which we now know exist in Hebrew or Old Testament Aramaic due to fragments the Dead Sea Scrolls were only known in Greek and other languages, for example, the Ge’ez language of Ethiopia or Syriac in the case of Psalms 152-155, which are very beautiful although no church has ever regarded them as canonical unlike Psalm 151 which is canonical in the Eastern Orthodox church but is not sung, unlike the other 150 psalms).
 
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I mean know disrespect to you and your responce, I think you were disagreeing with me and that is fine, but your responce is so long, cause your trying to prove your point that I stopped reading. There is such a thing as to big a post and this is one

Well in all fairness to that member you should see some of my replies… But there are some members who prefer longer and more detailed replies, so I try to accommodate that readership (I’ve actually had only one two people get on my case about the length of my replies since I joined in 2019 whereas I’ve had a great many who say they enjoy them; I think narrative flow and providing summarization is important).
 
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Blueprints

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@Blueprints

The fact remains that the word Lucifer is a Latinization and there were early Christians who were not devil worshippers, such as St. Lucifer the Martyr ...
Essentially irrelevant to the points I provided. That a word (such as Lucifer) is used in multiple ways does not mean one of those definitions it contains is nullified by another, such as the words "cat", or "trunk", or "napkin". or "boot". I never suggested that persons named "Lucifer" (or some derivative) were satanists by default. That would be silly and nonsensical, illogical. Whether Romanists given some name as such actually died as recorded or not in the 4th century, I leave to the Romanists to justify (and not the point of this thread in the least, being a non-sequitur), as I generally believe not much of their history (having had some knowledge of Romanist 'martyrs' in my previous religious upbringing and work / ministerial ethic).

That is the real "fact".
 
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I mean know disrespect to you and your responce, I think you were disagreeing with me and that is fine, but your responce is so long, cause your trying to prove your point that I stopped reading. There is such a thing as to big a post and this is one
Consider, that the response is well within the parameters of this forum's set and restrictive length and has not gone beyond those bounds into multiple posts. It is numerated for easy consideration, bit by bit, and may be consumed (not as a whole for those who cannot digest so much at once) little by little, point by point. If you choose to stop reading, this is, of course, your prerogative, but that doesn't, and will not, alter, or counter, the responses given in evidence to the incorrect OP. The response was to correct the errors given at the first post. I do not take it as disrespect, but I do take it as indolence upon your part, when you simply could take each section at a time, when you are able to consider them. I am moving on from a thread which has essentially ceased to discuss the issues by not considering the other evidences, or by others bringing in non-sequitur subjects which simply distract from the central issues under discussion.
 
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Whether Romanists given some name as such actually died as recorded or not in the 4th century, I leave to the Romanists to justify (and not the point of this thread in the least, being a non-sequitur), as I generally believe not much of their history (having had some knowledge of Romanist 'martyrs' in my previous religious upbringing and work / ministerial ethic).

That is the real "fact".

I don’t see why you would refer to martyrs of the early church as Romanists, given that the title Pope was not in use by the Bishop of Rome until the sixth century, and Papal Supremacy was not a thing until the tenth century, and it of course led to the great schism of 1054 (which has the effect of meaning that any early church martyrs are universal and not specific to the Church of Rome; the Syriac Orthodox for example highly venerate St. Clement, St. Sixtus and St. Julius, and they are also venerated in the Eastern Orthodox Church and by the Anglicans and most other Protestants.

Attempting to apply the label of “Romanist” to Christians of the first four centuries is spectacularly anachronistic. Furthermore, the word by itself is highly perjorative and likely to offend Roman Catholic users, so I would suggest in the interests of charity, despite not being a member of the Roman Catholic Church myself or a member of any Eastern Catholic Church in communion with it, that you not use such terminology. After all, Catholics are Christians as much as any of us, since they adhere to the Nicene Creed and preach Christ Crucified.
 
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JulieB67

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t was used in the Book of Isaiah as a mocking taunt against the King of Babylon
But there's never been any king of Babylon that proclaimed they were going to sit on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God at one point. They had their own gods they worshipped. I feel like this is another instance where this is an example of who Satan is and was. We've seen other examples like this in the OT when it's clear that it's pointing to Satan and his fall, etc.

Helel -the entity in Isiah 14 I believe points to Satan whether the name Lucifer is a proper translation or not.

As for the Isaiah verses, these verses mirror one another in 2nd Thessalonians

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

"I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" That points to future

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Similarities-

1)I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

and exalteth himself above all that is called God

2): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


Of course I'm of the belief that this is proof that Satan will sit there himself because he will be disguised as that angel of light as Paul describes (which is why one needs that gospel armor in of they are here in the "evil day". It's to stand when Satan and his are here.

Other things that point to the Isaiah passage describing Satan-


Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH.

This of course points to the Thessalonian verses as well.

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

We know that's Satan's destination for a time-

Revelation 20:2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


, and epic poetry rather than strict biblical text.
I take my beliefs as I've just shown from text and try and take the bible as a whole to not lose context.
reigning over a fiery underworld

This I don't believe.

I believe in a future casting down of Satan and his as portrayed in Revelation 12 which includes past and future

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."


II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."


Again, that's his MO deception and trickery. Both things that Christ and Paul warned us about- deception

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand

I know we are all going to have and will continue to have our own beliefs but I felt the need to go somewhat OT about the end times because I feel it's important to know who we are completely dealing with.
 
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