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Why is there a DESOLATE Earth in our future according to Jer 4 and Jer 25??

Xeno.of.athens

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To clarify my understanding, it is God that declares over and over and over that this world hates HIM, despises His Judgments and have gone about establishing their own righteousness. And it is true that this world, as I and David and Zacharias and Paul have lived in, will at some point be dissolved.

2 Pet. 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So this will happen, but not in David's, Abraham's, Paul's or James time, and most likely not in my time. Nevertheless, as it is written:

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

I can only be "diligent", and strive for the mark of the high calling of God which was in Christ Jesus, if I am alive. Therefore, the end of the world for me, will be my death, just as the end of the world for David, was his death.

And Scriptures teach exactly that.

Ps. 6: 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
With respect, the difficulty in your argument is that you collapse two quite different biblical realities into one: Scripture certainly teaches that the world in its fallen order resists God, and it certainly teaches a future cosmic renewal, but it does not teach that “the end of the world” simply is an individual’s death; 2 Peter 3 speaks of a single, future, universal consummation in which creation itself is transformed, not a recurring “end” every time a believer dies, and Catholic dogma follows the apostolic witness in distinguishing personal death (after which comes judgement: Heb 9:27) from the definitive Day of the Lord (CCC 1038–1050); likewise, the Psalms and Ecclesiastes passages you cite describe the limitations of earthly, pre‑resurrection existence, not the final state of the blessed, and they cannot be used to overturn the New Testament’s clear teaching on the resurrection of the body and the renewal of creation; so while your moral exhortation to diligence is entirely sound, equating your death with the eschatological end contradicts both the literal sense of the texts and the Church’s consistent understanding of the final consummation.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I have heard of this worldly religious philosophy that the Word's of the Prophet are not for me, but for a specific race of people born with a specific DNA, at a specific time. Although a very popular religious philosophy furthered by many promoters of this world's different religious sects and businesses, I don't believe, according to all that is written, that this philosophy is true. As the Jesus of the Bible teaches; Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jer. 25: 4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one "from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings", and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: 6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. 7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt. 8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

I completely reject your assertion that the state of this world today, is not "because" of the very same thing. Just as the State of the world in Noah's Time were not "Because" of the very same thing. Not because some preacher convinced me, but because of what God inspired to be written. "For there is no new thing under the Sun".
With respect, you are opposing a position I did not make: recognising that Jeremiah addressed real nations, kings, and events is not a “worldly philosophy” but simply the literal sense of Scripture, which both Jesus and the apostles presuppose, and which the Church safeguards; the fact that the prophets spoke to concrete historical audiences does not mean their words are not for us, but that their meaning for us flows from what God actually said to them—otherwise the text becomes untethered from its own inspired context; when you treat the historical grounding of Jeremiah as if it were a denial of universal moral application, you create a false dilemma, because Scripture itself teaches that the same human sins recur in every age (“no new thing under the sun”), yet it never erases the original historical referent of a prophecy to make it a timeless abstraction; Jesus’ statement in Luke 16:31 affirms the abiding authority of Moses and the prophets, not the collapse of their historical meaning, and the moral continuity between Noah’s generation and ours does not turn Jeremiah’s Babylonian‑era oracle into a universal description of all times, so the issue is not whether the prophets speak to us—they do—but whether we honour their words by receiving them as God actually gave them, in history, before drawing out their enduring spiritual significance.
 
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The Liturgist

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I was merely telling an absolute truth. Which is the ultimate respect according to the Lord's Christ, although commonly not received as such as clearly shown in the Holy Scriptures.

If you are offended, or if you do not want to have a discussion about my post to Bob that you replied to, I and sorry, and you are free to not engage in the questions or points I made.

I thought it was a worthy topic. I will leave the discussion

And what absolute truth would that be?

Regarding Jeremiah, it is clearly a matter of opinion as to whether or not it refers to a future desolation of the entire planet as some believe or refers to the desolation of Palestine, or both.

That doesn’t mean its an incorrect opinion - it could well be the case, but I don’t understand what absolute truth you are referring to in the context of Jeremiah - since the only portions of his prophecy that can be asserted absolutely are those that pertain to historical events in the context of Christ (since Luke ch. 24 makes it clear that all Old Testament prophecy pertains to Him, however, with regards to future events, the issue with saying a certain eschatology must be true is found in 2 Peter: no prohecy is of any private interpretation.

For which reason, we have the concept of what the Orthodox call theologoumemna, the Roman Catholics call quaestiones disputae, the Lutherans call adiaphora - essentially, areas where freedom exists to advocate your opinion.

What concerns me is that based on a disagreement on this issue you’re reducing Roman Catholic theologians (and presumably other traditional theologians) to the status of religious philosophers and implying they are no better than the likes of Muhammed, Siddharta Guatama, Confucius, or in more recent times, “the Bahu’allah”, Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy, which is a serious problem since we are talking about fellow Nicene Christians, and there is nothing in the Creed or in the New Testament that says not believing Jeremiah refers to a future desolation of the Earth will lead to damnation and is grounds for anathema, since such speculation is not a part of the core Gospel message of our hope for resurrection and participation in the life of the world to come through our salvation in and redemption through the atonement of our sins procured by Christ our True God on the Cross, that we can participate in through faith according to John 3:16, by being grafted onto the Body of Christ.

Rather the correct interpretation of potential eschatological content in Jeremiah is an area where room for multiple interpretations clearly exists, and I’m not seeing anyone who favors a more Antiochene literal-historical interpretation objecting to the more Alexandrian-style eschatological-typological approach you’re using (which is, by the way, an interesting anomaly, in that at present Alexandrian hermeneutics of the Old Testament are found mainly in the Eastern churches; and in your case most of the related points you’ve made appear based on a literal-historical rather than an eschatological-typological model, although in this respect it makes your beliefs more interesting; my concern is rather the needless condescension towards fellow Christians who disagree with you; I find it difficult to engage with your theology if you’re saying that Catholics are on a par with false religions because they disagree with you over this eschatological issue.

I’m also not sure what this interpretation has to do with a legalistic interpretation of the commandments, but regarding that, Christ makes it clear that if we do transgress the commandments we can be forgiven for it, and the Apostles in Acts 15 make it clear that the Law does not apply to gentile converts, but rather gentile converts are required only to abstain from, and I quote, “ from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality” and those who fail to do this can still be forgiven. As far as the commandments, Christ has summarized them as “love God above all else and love your neighbor as yourself” and has issued a new commandment, - that we are to love one another as Christ loves us.

This takes us to the core issue as to why your argument about absolute truth as a form of love is inapplicable in this case:

I have heard of this worldly religious philosophy that the Word's of the Prophet are not for me, but for a specific race of people born with a specific DNA, at a specific time.

@Xeno.of.athens at no point made the claim that Jeremiah is inapplicable to us in the present or has nothing to say to us, or that it is purely a historical document. Skepticism regarding a specific eschatological interpretation of Jeremiah does not mean that one is rejecting the actual Scripture or its contemporary applicability. Indeed for traditional Christians like Roman Catholics, Jeremiah is one of the most important books in the Old Testament due to its commentary on human sin and its Christological prophecy (see Luke ch. 24).

Thus the issue is you didn’t carefully parse @Xeno.of.athens argument but rather assumed that he was rejecting the relevance of Jeremiah to present Christians, and in leaping to such a conclusion, engaged in a Strawman argument, which is a logical fallacy and a misrepresentation of what he actually said.

Thus, using that as justification for referring to Roman Catholic theologians as “religious philosophers” and likening them to heathens cannot be regarded as an act of love based on absolute truth, since the argument you used to get there is logically unsound and rests upon a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the argument of your opponent, and furthermore, even if it were not the case that your argument included a Strawman fallacy, there is still the issue that the interpretation of Jeremiah relevant to the Eschaton is not described in the New Testament as being a doctrinal issue worthy of anathema; as I said at the start, this is clearly an example of an area of theolougoumemna (theological opinion) or adiaphora as the Lutherans call it, since according to 2 Peter, no prophecy is of any private interpretation, or as the fourth century Syriac Aramaic translation known as the Peshitta expresses it, no prophecy is its own exposition.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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If you are offended, or if you do not want to have a discussion about my post to Bob that you replied to, I and sorry, and you are free to not engage in the questions or points I made.
I do want to be clear that my disagreement here isn’t personal; it’s simply that, even where I differ strongly from @BobRyan, his arguments at least come from an identifiable ecclesial tradition, whereas what you are presenting rests on private interpretation detached from any historic Christian rule of faith, and from a Catholic perspective that distinction matters because Scripture is never meant to be read in isolation from the community Christ entrusted with guarding its meaning, so my concern is not about avoiding engagement but about keeping the conversation grounded in the shared, accountable interpretive frameworks that the wider Church—across its various traditions—has always recognised.
 
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BobRyan

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One can apply Jeremiah's words to any time,

Regarding Jeremiah, it is clearly a matter of opinion as to whether or not it refers to a future desolation of the entire planet as some believe or refers to the desolation of Palestine, or both.
The text itself says its scope is 'ALL NATIONS" leaving "NO HUMAN" alive on the Earth, with corpses strewn "from ONE END of the EARTH to the OTHER" and "NO one left alive to bury the dead NOR anyone left to MOURN the dead"... all cities in ruins where all the damage comes about as a result of God who says He is at war with mankind.

your dismissal of the text as 'up to personal opinion" no matter the scope and context of the text... is hard to take seriously.

The text can't be bent and wrenched to say "anything one wishes", at least not for the objective unbiased readers.
 
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BobRyan

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Aside from the FLood when did this condition ever actually exist after the time of Jeremiah

The dead are not buried
corpses from one end of the Earth to the other

Controversy with nations Plural
ALL inhabitants of Earth

Jer 4:23
I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.


Jer 4 :25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man, (no humans left)

And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence
of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

Jer 25:
30 “Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them:
‘The Lord will roar from on high,
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth
For the Lord has a controversy with the nations;
He will plead His case with all flesh.
He will give those who are wicked to the sword,’ says the Lord.”

32 Thus says the Lord of hosts:
“Behold, disaster shall go forth
From nation to nation,
And a great whirlwind shall be raised up
From the farthest parts of the earth.

Jer 25:
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.

The dead are not buried
corpses from one end of the Earth to the other

Controversy with nations Plural
ALL inhabitants of Earth

Reading the text above, many have observed that those events listed above have never been seen before
So if they are accurate statements then they describe the future not the past.
But if they are merely gigantic overstatement well than that creates a whole new set of issues

From a Catholic reading grounded in the Fathers and the Magisterium, Jeremiah’s imagery of cosmic collapse is prophetic hyperbole
Do you dismiss the resurrection, crucifixion, flood, virgin birth, Lake of Fire etc as all being "prophetic hyperbole" where we can "pick and choose" whatever one wishes, ignoring entirely the accuracy of the text?

It that sort of things is the kind of treatment to which scripture may be subjected to, then it is the wild wild west, everyone downsizes scripture to suit their own fancy in that case, because scripture itself can't be said to say anything at all about the future that happens to cut across the preference of this or that person with a bias.
 
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BobRyan

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from the OP update:

QUESTION for the reader:
Do you have a solution for Jer 4:23-26 and Jer 25:33 with its desolated and emptied Earth and it's cities in ruins.. that does not resort to:
  • can't be literally true...
  • can't exist...
  • should be ignored so my view will work...
  • shouldn't be a Bible prediction of the future..
  • can't really mean "all nations" like it says...
  • can't really mean "no humans left" like it says

Second Question:
Can you bring yourself to try and address the question starting with the premise that Jer 4:23-26 and jer 25:33 is literally true? IF so, where is the "Best fit" for it in your POV?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The text itself says its scope is 'ALL NATIONS" leaving "NO HUMAN" alive on the Earth, with corpses strewn "from ONE END of the EARTH to the OTHER" and "NO one left alive to bury the dead NOR anyone left to MOURN the dead"... all cities in ruins where all the damage comes about as a result of God who says He is at war with mankind.

your dismissal of the text as 'up to personal opinion" no matter the scope and context of the text... is hard to take seriously.

The text can't be bent and wrenched to say "anything one wishes", at least not for the objective unbiased readers.
BobRyan, thank you for setting out your view so clearly. From a Catholic perspective, the Church receives Jeremiah as inspired Scripture whose literal sense is anchored in the concrete historical judgements God pronounced upon Judah and the surrounding nations; this is not a dismissal of the text as “personal opinion” but fidelity to the principle that prophecy must first be read as it was given, to real peoples and real events (cf. CCC 110–114). Your claim that Jeremiah must describe a future moment in which “no human” remains alive on the entire planet and “all cities” lie in ruins goes beyond what the Church has ever taught. Catholic dogma affirms a final judgement and a cosmic renewal (2 Pet 3:10–13; Rev 21:1; CCC 1038–1047), but it does not teach a global depopulation between the Lord’s coming and the resurrection; rather, Christ returns to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1), which presupposes that humanity is not annihilated beforehand.

The imagery you cite—“from one end of the earth to the other,” “all nations,” “no one left to bury the dead” —is part of the prophetic idiom of totalising judgement, the same idiom used in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and even in descriptions of the Babylonian conquest. Catholic exegesis, following the Fathers, recognises this as prophetic hyperbole: language that expresses the completeness of God’s judgement upon the covenant people and their enemies, not a literal description of global extinction. St Augustine, St Jerome, and the Catechism itself treat such passages as real judgements expressed in cosmic imagery, not as predictions that the earth will be emptied of all human life before the resurrection. This is why the Church teaches that the final purification of the world accompanies the resurrection and the judgement (CCC 1038–1041), not a thousand‑year vacancy of the earth.

It is also important to note that Catholic dogma rejects the idea that Scripture can be interpreted apart from the rule of faith Christ entrusted to the Church (CCC 85–87). When you argue that “objective unbiased readers” must read Jeremiah as predicting a future global depopulation , you are asserting a private interpretive necessity that the apostles, the Fathers, and the Magisterium have never taught. The Church does not “bend” Scripture; rather, she receives it as the apostles did, recognising that prophetic language often uses cosmic collapse to describe historical divine judgement (e.g., Isa 13 on Babylon; Ezek 32 on Egypt). This does not deny future eschatological fulfilment, but it prevents us from collapsing every prophetic oracle into a single end‑time scenario.

Finally, none of this diminishes the seriousness of divine judgement or the universal scope of God’s moral claims upon the nations. Catholic teaching fully affirms that Christ will return in glory, that the dead will rise, and that the world will be purified and renewed (1 Cor 15; Rev 21; CCC 1042–1050). But the Church cannot affirm that Jeremiah teaches a future period in which no human being remains alive on earth, because this contradicts the apostolic proclamation of the resurrection, the continuity of creation, and the judgement of both the living and the dead. My aim here is not to dismiss your concerns but to remain faithful to the interpretive discipline the Church has safeguarded since the apostles, and to read Jeremiah in the fullness of that living tradition.
 
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Do you dismiss the resurrection, crucifixion, flood, virgin birth, Lake of Fire etc as all being "prophetic hyperbole" where we can "pick and choose" whatever one wishes, ignoring entirely the accuracy of the text?

It that sort of things is the kind of treatment to which scripture may be subjected to, then it is the wild wild west, everyone downsizes scripture to suit their own fancy in that case, because scripture itself can't be said to say anything at all about the future that happens to cut across the preference of this or that person with a bias.

And even this was prophesied.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say "unto every one" that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Do you dismiss the resurrection, crucifixion, flood, virgin birth, Lake of Fire etc as all being "prophetic hyperbole" where we can "pick and choose" whatever one wishes, ignoring entirely the accuracy of the text?

It that sort of things is the kind of treatment to which scripture may be subjected to, then it is the wild wild west, everyone downsizes scripture to suit their own fancy in that case, because scripture itself can't be said to say anything at all about the future that happens to cut across the preference of this or that person with a bias.
BobRyan, with respect, your comparison misrepresents both what Catholics mean by prophetic hyperbole and what the Church teaches about the events you list. The resurrection, crucifixion, virgin birth, the Flood, and the final judgement are not symbolic or optional; they are defined dogmas grounded in the literal historical acts of God (CCC 461–478; 638–658; 1219; 1038–1041). To suggest that Catholics “pick and choose” which texts to take seriously is simply inaccurate. The Church insists that the literal sense of Scripture—what the human author intended—is foundational (CCC 116). Recognising prophetic hyperbole in Jeremiah is not a dismissal of Scripture but fidelity to how the prophets themselves spoke: real judgements expressed in cosmic language.

Your argument assumes that if one prophetic passage uses totalising imagery, it must therefore describe a future global extinction of all human life. But that conclusion is neither required by the text nor supported by apostolic teaching. The Church cannot affirm a scenario in which the earth becomes empty of all humans before the resurrection, because Christ returns to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1), not a planet of corpses. Nor does Catholic dogma allow for a thousand‑year vacancy of the earth between the Second Coming and the new creation. The Fathers consistently read passages like Jeremiah 25 in continuity with Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the minor prophets, where “from one end of the earth to the other” is idiom for the universality of judgement, not a literal census of zero survivors.

The real issue here is not whether Scripture is accurate—Catholics affirm its divine inspiration and inerrancy (CCC 107)—but whether every prophetic oracle must be interpreted through a single eschatological framework. When you claim that only one reading is “objective” and all others are “bias,” you are asserting a private interpretive authority the apostles never gave to individuals. Christ entrusted the authentic interpretation of Scripture to the Church (CCC 85–87), and the Church has never taught that Jeremiah predicts a future period in which no human being remains alive on earth. That is not “downsizing Scripture”; it is refusing to impose on the text a meaning foreign to the apostolic faith.

Finally, Catholic teaching does not reduce the force of divine judgement. The Church proclaims the reality of the final purification, the resurrection of the body, and the renewal of creation (1 Cor 15; Rev 21; CCC 1042–1050). But she also refuses to contradict the Gospel by adopting interpretations that erase the living from the moment Christ returns. Rejecting that interpretation is not rejecting Scripture—it is remaining faithful to the rule of faith that has safeguarded Scripture’s meaning since the first century.

P.S. In a friendly spirit, may I ask why you reposted the earlier material as though it had been overlooked, given that I have read it carefully even though I have not yet responded to it directly.
 
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The text can't be bent and wrenched to say "anything one wishes", at least not for the objective unbiased readers.

That would be yet another strawman fallacy, for I never asserted that the text can be reasonably manipulated to say anything one wants it to say - logic and reason (important because Christ as the Logos is Truth, Logic and Reason incarnate), the Creed, the meaning of the words, and their historical context are all constraints on interpretation. Rather, I merely asserted that there is insufficient evidence to say that the interpretation being advocated in this case is definitely what will happen; what is more, based on 2 Peter “no prophecy is of any private interpretation” there is a clear warning about the epistemological dangers of individual attempts at interpreting eschatological prophecy.

In this specific case, there are a number of factors to consider that would have the effect of negating your interpretation:
  • There is a clear historical event St. Jeremiah prophesied (the Babylonian captivity of the practitioners of Judaism at the end of the Solomonic Temple era)..
  • There are multiple alternative eschatological and soteriological interpretations.
  • The specific interpretation you are advocating appears to be very heavily dependent on both pre-Tribulation and Chiliastic interpretations, which are disputed on Biblical grounds by many, and I would also note none of the great dogmatic or systematic theologians in carefully studying the entirety of Scripture came to a Chiliast interpretation (neither St. John of Damscus, nor St. Gregory Palams, nor the great scholastic doctor of the Roman church St. Thomas Aquinas, who I will recognize as a saint as a courtesy to my Catholic friends although I do not entirely agree with the Thomistic interpretation, but I do admire his intellectual rigor, for example, his logical proof of the existence of God is one of the strongest known, nor Martin Luther and Philip Melancthon nor the other Evangelical Catholic reformers, at least so far as I am aware (@MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis @Ain't Zwinglian correct me if I’m wrong on this point), nor John Calvin, whose Institutes are exhaustive, nor, most notably, Karl Barth, who engaged in a superb if technically supererogatory study of the entirety of scripture, starting from scratch without reference to ecclesiastical history or church tradition, and arrived at basically the same conclusions as historic Calvinism with substantial parallels to the theology of the early church (his interpretation became known as neo-Orthodoxy and challenged more liberal voices in Calvinism due to its thoroughness). Indeed even John Nelson Darby did not come to this specific conclusion concerning Jeremiah.
  • We also see no trace of it among ancient early church fathers who embraced Chiliasm prior to that interpretation being excluded by the Greek fathers at the Council of Constantinople*, St. Justin Martyr, St. Papias of Smyrna, and St. Irenaeus of Lyons (who you previously cited as authorities until I pointed out the vast difference between their Chiliasm and Adventist pre Millenialism, including their belief in worship on Sunday and on the authority of the bishops and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist) nor among other early church Fathers nor among any sectarian leaders outside the Church, even those inclined to think in this direction such as the Ebionites.

Rather, it appears that this interpretation is specifically Adventist, because it doesn’t really work with non-Adventist interpretations, being closely connected with the idea that at the time of the Desolation, the faithful will be in Heaven reviewing the results of the Investigative Judgement with Christ, if I am reading Adventist doctrine correctly (if not, my apologies, but either way this belief is uncommon outside of a Seventh Day Adventist context.

The idea that we must interpret it in the manner indicated is another recurrence of the SDA idea that Adventist interpretations of Scripture are the only reasonable interpretations, and that people who disagree with the Adventist interpretation are disagreeing with Scripture or are trying to force an unwarranted interpretation, which doesn’t really hold water in this case, since in my reticence to accept the Adventist interpretation, I am not excluding it entirely, since I cannot know what the future holds, but rather am reserving judgement on the definite interpretation of the passage eschatologically speaking, while at the same time seeking to adhere to the faith of the 150 Holy Fathers at Constantinople. One could hold to a doctrine similar to this without embracing chiliasm and if one did that, well, it seems to me that would be a matter of what we Orthodox call a valid theologoumenon or the Lutherans call a matter of adiaphora; most eschatological details pertaining to timing and the exact nature of what will transpire are Quaestiones Disputae by their very nature, since no prophecy is of any private interpretation, and we can only definitely assert what the Creed declares, that Christ will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, that His kingdom shall have no end, and that we believe in the life of the world to come.

And to reiterate - saying that the exact interpretation of a passage is a matter of adiaphora, where one can find a range of acceptable theologoumemna, is not saying that any interpretation of the pericope in question is acceptable, since a legitimate theologoumemnon is still constrained by the words of Scripture and the relevant doctrine of the Church as expressed in the Creed and other authoritative sources, which vary slightly between denominations, for the Orthodox it would chiefly be Patristic writings, but most especially, the ancient Patristic hymns and liturgical texts we use*** (in the case of the eschaton, the Divine Liturgy or Holy Communion service in particular, which is celebrated on all Sabbaths and First Days throughout the year, is assembled from scripture and makes a clear, general assertion about our future salvation in Christ).

*Regarding Constantinople, I must remind everyone that this council was initially a local Greek Orthodox council which was subsequently adopted on a Church-wide basis - it is unique among the ecumenical councils in that no Roman or Latin fathers were present - Constantinople isunique among the ecumenical councils in that it was very specifically attributable to what we would now call the Greek Orthodox Church, albeit the Roman Catholics and the Syriacs/Assyrians, the Mar Thoma Christians of India and the Far East, and the Armenians, Copts, Georgians, Ethiopians, Nubians and all other local churche agreed with the decision of the 150 Holy Fathers at Constantinople and adopted their revised version of the Creed.

In this respect it can be regarded as the opposite of councils expressly convened to be ecumenical which were not universally received, notably the Second Council of Ephesus, which was widely decried as a “latrocinium” and led to the unfortunate events at Chalcedon and the unnecessary schism between the Chacledonians and the Oriental Orthodox which we are only now recovering from, and the Quinisext Council in Trullo, convened by Emperor Justinian to issue new canon legislation for the entire church, but which issued canons which the Roman Church refused to accept and which angered them to the point where the hymn Agnus Dei was added to the Western liturgy partially in opposition to Quinisext doctrines (also other aspects of the council targeted Armenian praxis but in so doing inadvertently precluded what would become normative Western practices, such as prohibiting the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist.

Thus it cannot be said that the Council of Constantinople and its attempt to preclude Chiliasm by adding the clause “whose kingdom shall have no end” to the Nicene Creed was a Roman Catholic conspiracy; if anyone is to be blamed for the prevalence of amillenialism, it should be my denomination, the Eastern Orthodox (I regard the propagation of amillenial theology as one of our greatest accomplishments as a denomination).

*** The average age of hymns in the Orthodox Church is around 1200 years, with most hymns of more recent origin being minor variations on the hymns of the General Menaion for the veneration of saints glorified in recent years. Like most traditional churches, the current recension of our liturgy is around 500-600 years old, with the Russian Old RIte being around 800-900 years old, although the differences between the two versions are very slight.
 

BobRyan

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BobRyan, thank you for setting out your view so clearly. From a Catholic perspective, the Church receives Jeremiah as inspired Scripture
Agreed I think we all do that.
whose literal sense is anchored in the concrete historical judgements God pronounced upon Judah
That is where we differ.

For example in Ezek 28 we have the history of Lucifer as the "covering Cherub" and his ultimate doom when God "brings fire from the midst" of him.
Lucifer is literally "Wiser than Daniel" see vs 28:3
All of it literally true for Lucifer, the literal "covering cherub" who was literally "perfect in the day you were created until sin was found in you"

Yet all of it cast as a message to the literal "King of Tyre" Ezek 28:1. A tiny minor player as compared to the more literal apocalyptic application.
  • You were in Eden, the garden of God”
  • “You were the anointed cherub who covers
  • “You were blameless… until unrighteousness was found in you”
  • I cast you as profane from the mountain of God”
These descriptions do not fit any human king. No king of Tyre was:
  • In Eden
  • A cherub
  • On the “holy mountain of God”
  • Perfect before falling

Jer 4 it was never the case that:

1. Earth had all cities left in ruins by the wrath of God​
2. No humans left on Earth​
3. Hills moving on Earth​
4. All birds gone​
5. (Jer 25:33 nothing but corpses from one end of the Earth to the other with no one to mourn them​

But it is all lterally fulfilled in the apocalyptic future during the Millennium of Rev 20 (the 1000 years)

You are stuck with nothing more than overblown hyperbole and massive overstatement in Ezek 28 and in Jer 4:23-26 if you try to shoehorn it all into the minor local elements.

This is also the case with Isaiah 9 a Messianic prophecy set in the local scenario of a young woman who gave birth. To shoehorn the entire Isaiah 9 statement into the local context reduces it all to nothing more than overblown hyperbole and massive overstatement
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That is where we differ.
Thanks again. I have stated both my perspective and that of the Catholic Church in her Dogmatic teaching documents. That is as far as I care to go in this specific to-and-fro with you.

God watch over us all.
 
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BobRyan

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your dismissal of the text as 'up to personal opinion" no matter the scope and context of the text... is hard to take seriously.
The text can't be bent and wrenched to say "anything one wishes", at least not for the objective unbiased readers.

That would be yet another strawman fallacy, for I never asserted that the text can be reasonably manipulated to say anything one wants it to say
hmm you did not say it was up to personal opinion?

The Liturgist said:

Regarding Jeremiah, it is clearly a matter of opinion as to whether or not it refers to a future desolation of the entire planet as some believe or refers to the desolation of Palestine, or both.

Do you read your own posts?
, I merely asserted that there is insufficient evidence to say that the interpretation being advocated in this case is definitely what will happen;
You can of course believe whatever you wish no matter the details in the text that you are still ignoring in your posts
*** The average age of hymns in the Orthodox Church is around 1200 years, with most hymns of more recent origin being minor variations on the hymns of the General Menaion for the veneration of saints glorified in recent years. Like most traditional churches, the current recension of our liturgy is around 500-600 years old, ...
 
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The Liturgist

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hmm you did not say it was up to personal opinion?

That very obviously does not mean that the text can be reasonably manipulated to absolutely anything.

The exact meaning of a passage of Scripture being uncertain, because, for instance, it refers to future events, obviously does not mean that the passage can mean absolutely anything, rather, it means that the correct answer is not yet known with certainty, and thus we can either reserve judgement or venture a theologoumemnon, or theological opinion, but a theological opinion to be valid still has to be consistent with the rest of the Bible, historical context, with church tradition (1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:37, and with logic and reason, and importantly it must be disclosed as a theologoumemnon and not as church doctrine.

Quaestiones disputae, adiaphorae and thelougoumemna arise where we are unable to assert a correct answer with any certainty but we are able to exclude incorrect answers.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you read your own posts?

Yes I do, and I also read yours, carefully. On that note, I’ve been meaning to ask, by the way, why do you repeatedly copy and paste the same text into post after post that you make? It’s a bit redundant and makes your posts difficult to read, are you aware that that is happening? It looks like a formatting error to me, and several members have remarked upon that to you, but you have not provided an answer.

At any rate, rather than doubling down on a logical fallacy that misrepresents the context of my post, you could try responding to my actual argument, by addressing, for example, the issue of the apparent dependency that exists between this eschatology and the idea of the Investigative Judgement, or the lack of any documentary evidence of anyone believing that Jeremiah meant the Earth would be depopulated in this specific manner in between Revelation 19 and 20 prior to the 19th century.

That said, even if we assume a priori that the Investigative Judgement and Pre-millenialism are correct interpretations of Scripture as a whole, there is still the logical issue of parsimony and the issue of 2 Peter indicating that the exact nature of what would occur in the future is unknowable.

By the way, the other issue which has remained unaddressed concerning my argument is that Roman Catholics and other traditional Christians not believing in this specific doctrine is not sufficient grounds for describing their denominational leaders as “religious philosophers” or implying apostasy.
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread had a small clean up. Please remember the flaming rule and refrain from insulting other churches.
 
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