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AZUZA STREET. REVIVAL OR NOT ?

tdidymas

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Sir, without the Holy Spirit there would be no scriptures, and christians can't understand them correctly without Him,
You know when the apostles were around, there were mixed among them false people, even John says 'they were with us but not were us'
So this attitude people have about pentecostalism, is more about unbelief about gifts and healing etc, than other thing,
there are bad baptists, bad whatever i don't see people sinking all churches into saying their are bad because of them.

Is plain unbelief, and this is what the bible teaches like it or not, there are gifts, seek prophecy, heal the sick, cast out demons etc.
If someone says that the "revival" at Azusa St. was fake, and today's "tongues" is fake, and another person says "you're blaspheming the Holy Spirit," who is actually blaspheming? The one who points to a fake miracle and says "fake", or the one who claims that a fake miracle is by the Holy Spirit?

Here is an undeniable fact: every video on youtube that has someone "speaking in tongues" (and there are hundreds) is an example of glossolalia, which is defined as unintelligible non-semantic vocalization, in other words, random syllables of one's native language. It's not language, but rather pseudo-language, which means that it sounds like a foreign language, but it's not a language. It is meaningless, because it can't possibly carry a message, since it has neither the language structure nor vocabulary to carry any meaning.

Rather, it's a human phenomenon, because it has been proven that anyone can do it, whether Christian or not. Therefore, it is not miraculous, regardless how sincerely someone believes that it is. And since it is not miraculous, it is not a gift of the Holy Spirit described in Acts or 1 Cor. To say it is a gift of the Spirit is to misrepresent the Holy Spirit and the scripture He inspired.

If you are ready to accept this as even possibly true, then we can continue the conversation. I would very much like to share my research and experience over the 50 years I have been a Christian.
 
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tdidymas

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'So, allow me to request a clarification: You believe you don't sin'?

This is a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. If one refuses to give an answer to the above question, having professed entire sanctification, you become the target of all types of unwanted criticism.
If, on the other hand, one confesses humbly that by the grace of God they have been kept from sinning, they get hammered by criticism as well.
Paul testified to present victory over sin,' For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death' Rm 8:2.
So, along with Paul, I will also testify too. When I use the word sin, I mean 'a willful transgression of a known Law'. This and only this, is sin.
So, my answer is this, by the power & presence of the Holy Spirit, I have been kept from falling into sin, i.e. from willfully, transgressing the Law of God.
By the Law of God I mean, the Law of Love. Through God, I have loved the Lord with all my being and my neighbor as myself. To Him be the glory.
Now come the stones!
The same man who wrote Rom. 8:2 also wrote 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." - he doesn't say because of past sins, but because of sin, that is, the sin principle which still resides in your mortal body. Rom. 6-8 is all about the correction of belief concerning the nature of your relationship with God. We trust God to purify us, that is, continual and gradual sanctification throughout our lives. The theology of salvation is that God is sovereign, that is, in control of our eternal destiny. This should motivate us to trust Him to fulfill His promise to purify us completely from the principle of sin that still resides in us in this life, body and soul. No one will be entirely sanctified until the resurrection. However, "to live is Christ, and to die is gain," which implies that when a saint dies, they are released from the sin principle. Based on this, I think it's hard-pressed to justify Wesley's "entire sanctification" doctrine. In fact, there is no evidence that he ever said he had attained to perfection. There is a vast difference between asserting a doctrine and actually living up to it. This isn't a stone, unless you want to take it that way.
 
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Rose_bud

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Someone who spent 20 years within Pentecostal movements, 7 of which as a pastor, but no longer is, can expose a strong bias against. I constantly read of similar accounts of pastors who have left the ministry for Islam. Their grievances against the church or denomination, etc.., after spending a considerable amount of time as a stakeholder inside, doesn't help their case, it only makes it emotional for them.

The article seems to be overgeneralizing, suggesting other rivals "people were convicted of sin, lives changed for the good and most of all, God was glorified." then is implying that in Azuza none of these things happen, which is a bold claim to make. Supporters of Azusa would argue that there was repentance, evangelism, holiness emphasis, prayer, and missionary fervour there too, it can depend on which evidence you want to emphasize.

Frank Bartleman was also certainly sympathetic, but historians still treat him as an important primary source. Like many eyewitnesses, he had a theological bias, but dismissing him as essentially dishonest is an overstatement.

The “head in the box/crate” story is real. Seymour sometimes prayed with his head inside the makeshift pulpit but the context is important. His purpose is actually not to be theatrical but to pray in private. You can easily frame this to show the oddity of it over showing the humility, and prayer focus. It was a humble play with not a lot of extras and was often crowded. The seats and pulpits were simply wooden boxes so the box over the head is a way he could isolate into a private prayer time within a crowd. I can understand how someone described as Seymour could come to those conclusions (even today) even if you think it's odd.

Charles Parham also did not “take control” and restored order. Parham did have sharp criticism of Azusa, which was largely rejected by Seymour, and the movement continued without him. I'm not saying it can't be criticized, but I don't think the article best represents what it really was and it sound more like someone turned anti-pentecostal. I think the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is also valid to point out if it was an authentic movement/rival or not.
Good assessment
 
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tdidymas

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How would you define 'sin'?
We as Christians so often use the same words but have different meanings behind them.
Much of the misunderstanding around the subject of holiness and sanctification stems from a different understanding of what sin is.
For example, the Calvinist usually defines sin as' any want against the perfect Law of God'. This to me sounds like, just being human is sinful,
because we fall short of God's perfection. I don't think this definition can be garnered from the Bible.
For me, I believe that inward sin or original sin, is self-idolatry, which shows itself in selfishness.
As for outward sin or sinful actions, I like John Wesley's definition,' sin is a willful transgression of a known Law.' These latter definitions reflect a more accurate view of what the Bible teaches.
Your thoughts if you like?
Pardon me for butting in, as this thread caught my eye. You're right, that definition of sin is defective. I think from my knowledge of scripture that sin can be defined as anything that is contrary to God's moral nature. Paul describes it as falling short of God's glory, meaning that God's moral perfection is not attained by man, because man is largely self-centered and lacks complete knowledge, and therefore is unable to treat others in the way that Jesus did in all cases. Sooner or later we all run across a situation in which our natural reaction to it falls short of moral perfection. This mostly happens in times of crisis or adversity.

The idea that sin is based on one's knowledge of the law (Wesley) is abjectly defective, because the scripture denies this idea. Paul wrote that the law was added because of transgressions, which obviously indicates that people were sinning before they knew the law. This also proves out in real life, in the fact that children begin sinning before they know right and wrong. In the case of Cain, there was no law stating "thou shalt not murder," yet he knew he had sinned, though there was no law to be known. If you need explanationsfor these statements, I can provide it.
 
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Aussie52

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Pardon me for butting in, as this thread caught my eye. You're right, that definition of sin is defective. I think from my knowledge of scripture that sin can be defined as anything that is contrary to God's moral nature. Paul describes it as falling short of God's glory, meaning that God's moral perfection is not attained by man, because man is largely self-centered and lacks complete knowledge, and therefore is unable to treat others in the way that Jesus did in all cases. Sooner or later we all run across a situation in which our natural reaction to it falls short of moral perfection. This mostly happens in times of crisis or adversity.

The idea that sin is based on one's knowledge of the law (Wesley) is abjectly defective, because the scripture denies this idea. Paul wrote that the law was added because of transgressions, which obviously indicates that people were sinning before they knew the law. This also proves out in real life, in the fact that children begin sinning before they know right and wrong. In the case of Cain, there was no law stating "thou shalt not murder," yet he knew he had sinned, though there was no law to be known. If you need explanations of these statements, I can provide it.
Your definition of sin as, 'falling short of God's moral perfection' is dubious. How can God condemn us for being 'not God'?
Sin is an offence against God's moral law, as in 10 commandments or as Jesus summarized it, loving God with one's being and neighbor as oneself.

Children sin as a result of 'original sin' but they are still culpable for their actions. Children also have an inner sense of what's 'fair'. They know instinctively what is fair and what is unfair (sin). So, not having the Law outwardly, one has it within the heart and it testifies against us.
 
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tdidymas

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Your definition of sin as, 'falling short of God's moral perfection' is dubious. How can God condemn us for being 'not God'?
Sin is an offence against God's moral law, as in 10 commandments or as Jesus summarized it, loving God with one's being and neighbor as oneself.

Children sin as a result of 'original sin' but they are still culpable for their actions. Children also have an inner sense of what's 'fair'. They know instinctively what is fair and what is unfair (sin). So, not having the Law outwardly, one has it within the heart and it testifies against us.
You're exaggerating. I took my definition from the references to sin in the Bible, with related terms: transgression, iniquity, guilt, and such, along with Paul's description in Rom. 3:23 "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory." Your response is a straw man, because my definition neither says nor implies that falling short of God's moral perfection is being "not God." You are bringing into the argument something that doesn't belong. When I said "God's moral perfection," I mean "God's moral nature," which man was made in the image of. God did not create man as God, and man was obviously not perfect as God (since he sinned), although he was initially sinless. Sin "came into the world" through Adam.

So don't exaggerate things here. The moral law is a description of God's moral nature. Since man was created in God's image, he has moral law, that is, a moral nature embedded in him, according to Rom. 2, since he is talking about gentiles who don't know the 10 commandments or Jesus' command to love God and others. The reason why unbelievers are "by nature children of wrath" is because the moral nature is corrupted, in which sin permeates everything about him, and man also naturally suppresses that moral nature. So man is condemned for being disobedient by nature, not for being "not God."

I stand by my definition, and disagree with Wesley's definition. Sin is not based on knowledge of it. Rather the knowledge of guilt is based on knowledge of the law. Guilt is the consequence of sin and knowing the law, but it's not sin itself. Sin is falling short of God's glory - and what is God's glory that man was created for, but moral righteousness? It's the same righteousness that everyone in the kingdom of God will live by in the new heavens and new earth.
 
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Berserk

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Oour local United methodist minister told me that he once spoke in tongues in fluent Korean, as was confirmed by a Korean native speaker prese4nt in the prayer meeting. Yhe pastor's wife in a Saskatchwewan church gave a meesage in tongues in fluent Swahili, as was cofirmed by an visiting African present in the service. Such examples could be multiplied.
 
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Aussie52

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Oour local United methodist minister told me that he once spoke in tongues in fluent Korean, as was confirmed by a Korean native speaker prese4nt in the prayer meeting. Yhe pastor's wife in a Saskatchwewan church gave a meesage in tongues in fluent Swahili, as was cofirmed by an visiting African present in the service. Such examples could be multiplied.
You are making an assumption that the source of the languages was the Holy Spirit. There may be other possibilities.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Hi, i knew God and the Holy Spirit in pentecostal churches, and in my experience,
people can be faulty, but if the the doctrine is right God is going to to be there,
and imo, people need to understand that today there is false people around,
and i have no idea about 'past revivals'
but if you speak against pentecostals, and the teaching of being filled with the Holy spirit,
you are sinning against God horribly.
Better be careful.
Your love for God and your desire to defend what you believe appears to be sincere, and I honour that. But the Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is truly given to all the baptised (Acts 2:38) and that His gifts are real, though they must always be discerned carefully (1 Thess 5:19–21). The Church also warns that no private experience or movement can stand above the apostolic faith handed down once for all (Jude 1:3). Speaking honestly about doctrinal differences is not “sinning horribly”; rather, the Church requires us to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God” (1 John 4:1), because sincere people can still be mistaken.

Catholics affirm the reality of the Spirit’s action, but we also hold—dogmatically—that the fullness of truth and sacramental life subsists in the Church Christ founded (Lumen Gentium 8). Being “filled with the Holy Spirit” is not rejected; it is understood within the sacramental and ecclesial life Christ established. So I say this kindly but firmly: disagreement with Pentecostal doctrines is not an offence against God, and no Christian should be threatened for raising legitimate theological concerns. True unity comes from truth spoken in charity (Eph 4:15).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Pick up any book on modern day revivals and included will be an account of the 'Azuza Street Revival' at the beginning of the 20th century in Los Angeles.
This occurrence in church history is usually painted in bright colours and spoken of as a genuine move of God.
The account of the happenings at the old, rundown African Episcopal Methodist Church building in Azuza Street, was reported by Frank Bartleman, a Chrisian newspaper reporter. His account of those happenings became a book called, ' Another Wave Rolls In. Frank's account was very 'sugar coated' and he tendered to view what was happening through 'rose tinted glasses'. This unfortunate view of Azuza St. has been repeated in books & sermons done through the years.
The main figure in these events was a black, one eyed, holiness preacher named William J Seymour, who had come to Los Angeles from a Bible School in the South, where the students had experienced, the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.' This college was headed up by a Baptist minister, who had received the baptism, by the name of Charles Parham. He will pop up in this story a little later.
William Seymour started meetings at Azuza St, where crowds of spiritually hungry Christians gathered to seek the baptism with the evidence of tongues. Frank Bartleman's description of the meetings were anything but the truth. Many newspaper reporters were present along with many of the City's evangelical ministers, who were horrified by what they saw.
The meetings were carried on without any guiding hand; in fact, they were described by objective onlookers as 'bedlam'. Seymour spent his time in the meetings with his head in a fruit crate that doubled as the pulpit, leaving the proceedings to do what they wished. It was reported that people ran around the building shouting at the top of their voices. Others, rolling around the floor with bodily jerking movements. Many of the visiting ministers reported demonic manifestations happening, which were allowed to go on without any intervention by Seymour or anyone else. Many times, Police were called to come and stop the loud noise and 'madness' that was going on.

Enter Charles Parham. When Charles arrived at the Azuza St meetings, he could not believe what he saw. He immediately took control and brought sanity and order into the situation. Over a period of time, things began to fizzle out and the meetings were closed.

The Azuza Street meetings became the 'birthplace' of the modern Pentecostal Movement with this new doctrine of the 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues'.

What can be learnt from this 'so called revival' that is so often held up as a significant move of God?

Looking at what really went on, it was not a real revival in any sense of the word. It was a series of meetings that were overly emotional, demonstrations of the 'flesh' and worst of all, demonic in nature. Azuza St cannot be compared with the Welsh Revival or the Hebrides Awakening under the ministry of Duncan Campbell. In these revivals, people were convicted of sin, lives changed for the good and most of all, God was glorified.

The new and novel doctrine of 'initial evidence of tongues' in relation to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, raises questions as to its validity and scripturalness.
.
Those involved in the Azuza St meetings assumed that the supernatural occurrences which took place were from God. This is most dangerous. There are other 'sources' of the miraculous & supernatural besides God. John said to 'test the spirits as to whether they be of God'.

It is my personal opinion that the Pentecostal Movement was built on a fraudulent foundation and continues to move in a mixture of truth & fraud, even to today.
I invite questions & discussion on this subject.

Final note. The writer of this post spent 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement. Seven years as a pastor. I saw the good and the bad of it.
The account you quoted makes several historical claims about Azusa Street, but from a Catholic standpoint the more important issue is not whether the meetings were noisy, disordered, or poorly supervised, but whether the doctrines that emerged from them align with the apostolic faith. The Church teaches that private reports - whether favourable like Bartleman’s or critical like contemporary newspapers - cannot serve as a doctrinal foundation. What can be evaluated is the claim that the “baptism in the Holy Spirit” must be evidenced by tongues. Saint Paul explicitly rejects this idea: “Do all speak with tongues?” (1 Cor 12:30, RSV‑CE). The Catholic Church therefore cannot accept the Pentecostal doctrine of “initial evidence,” because it contradicts Scripture and the Church’s constant teaching that the Spirit distributes gifts “as he wills” (1 Cor 12:11).

The description of disorder, emotionalism, and possible preternatural manifestations at Azusa Street - if accurate - would simply confirm the Church’s perennial warning that not every spiritual phenomenon is from God. Saint John commands: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1). Likewise, Saint Paul insists that authentic worship must be marked by order, not confusion: “For God is not a God of confusion but of peace… all things should be done decently and in order” (1 Cor 14:33, 40). These are not optional guidelines; they are apostolic norms. So, if the events at Azusa Street lacked discernment, structure, and pastoral oversight, that would not be a surprise to those holding fast to Catholic theology, which has always insisted that spiritual experiences must be judged within the Church, not left to spontaneous interpretation.

At the same time, the Catholic Church does not conclude from historical irregularities that every grace associated with Pentecostalism is fraudulent. The Church teaches that “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church” (Lumen Gentium 8), and that the Holy Spirit can genuinely move in the hearts of those who sincerely seek Christ. But the Church also insists that authentic renewal must be rooted in the apostolic faith, the sacraments, and ecclesial authority - not in novel doctrines or uncontrolled manifestations. True revival, in Catholic understanding, is marked by repentance, holiness, fidelity to doctrine, and the glorification of God, as seen in Acts 2:42–47.

So, the Catholic evaluation is more nuanced than your post. The Church rejects the doctrinal innovations that arose from Azusa Street, especially the claim that tongues are the necessary sign of the Spirit. She also warns that disorderly or sensational phenomena must be approached with caution. But she does not dismiss every Pentecostal experience as “fraudulent,” nor does she deny that God may have worked in the lives of individuals present. Instead, she applies the same criteria she has used for two millennia: Scripture, apostolic tradition, moral fruits, and ecclesial discernment. Only what aligns with these can be confidently affirmed as the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
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