Paul' Gospel of Grace - Salvation by Faith Alone & OSAS

AFrazier said:

It's always the avenue of denial to claim that a person in these scenarios isn't a "real Christian." But I'll reiterate. There is no forgiveness outside of Christ. If the person in the parable has been forgiven his debt, then the person in the parable is a person in Christ. And when that person in Christ did not go and do likewise by forgiving another, his forgiveness was revoked.

Click to expand...

Your premise "there is no forgiveness outside of Christ" does not take into account the distinction between forgiveness in this life and forgiveness in the life to come. God may forgive someone generally who is not born again, meaning that a person may not be a believer, but could change his attitude toward what is just and right, and be blessed in this life. Let's take Nineveh (in Jonah) as an example. God forgave them and spared their city, although most, if not all, were idolators. They did not become Jews, they did not teach their children the ways of the only true God, and about 150 years later the city was destroyed. God spared them only because they repented of their wicked deeds which they were doing at the time. There is no indication whatsoever that they trusted in the future Messiah and became born of God. There is nothing in Jonah that implies that Jonah said anything at all about the future Messiah. OT saints were saints because they believed in the Messiah to come. I agree that the only way to receive forgiveness for eternal life is to trust in Christ as did Abraham.

AFrazier said:

You can argue this however you want. But the plain fact is, there are expectations placed on us as believers. We are required, as Christians, to do the works of charity, to forgive, etc., and if we don't do those things, the free gift can, and will, be revoked. I won't argue the point with you beyond this. People see what they want to see. No amount of argument is going to change that. But the scriptures say what they say. I can show the same principle from a dozen different passages. There is no ambiguity to it.

Click to expand...

"the free gift can, and will, be revoked" - you are disagreeing with scripture, since Paul wrote "the gifts and calling of God are irrevokable." Your doctrine is at odds with scripture.

AFrazier said:

What's happening is people conflate reception with retention, and confiscation with surrender. We receive salvation as a free gift. It can't be earned. It can't be bought. It is given, and undeservedly. That's reception. Retention is maintaining the free gift that has been given. And there are numerous passages discussing that aspect, showing the expectations that have been laid on us, from the king revoking forgiveness to the barren tree that produces no fruit being hewn down and cast into the fire, to those who failed to feed, clothe, and visit Christ by not doing likewise to the least of God's children. No one can take your salvation away from you. The church can excommunicate you, but not take away your salvation. No man, no beast, no organized religion, can deprive you of the salvation you've been given. That's confiscation. But you can choose to act in a way that surrenders it. There are also numerous passages discussing this, from those who have strayed and been brought back in James, to those who have the truth and turn away like a dog returning to his vomit, and are worse than if they had never known.

At the end of the day . . . you do you. I'll do me. I will try to live up to the expectations that have been placed on me as a believer. You do whatever you think you do or do not have to do. When judgment day comes, we'll see who stands where.

Click to expand...

The same faith process to receive the free gift is the same faith process to retain it. If you can't retain it, you never had it. John says clearly that we already have eternal life. It says "eternal," not "temporary" and not "potential." Peter says clearly that God keeps us by His power, and John says that the evil one does not touch the believer. So if you think you can lose eternal life by "not retaining" it, your faith is precarious.

Here is the law we are to do and keep, 1 John 3:23, And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

This law is similar to one in Deu 10:16, Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

How do we do that? The answer is we can not, yet it is a commandment from God just as a command to believe. We should pray for God's mercy that he may have mercy upon us.

Deu 30:6, And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

What asked the disciples in Mat 19:25, When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 25:26, But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
John 1:13, Which were born (born again), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:29, Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ezk 36-25-27, [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.