How does original sin work according to theistic evolution?

The Barbarian said:

God says that he didn't. He died physically many years after. And the Bible says that Jesus came to save us from death. If it was a physical death, Jesus failed. So you can ignore all of that if you want.

For both reasons, we know that the death that Adam brought into the world was not a physical death.

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That still doesn’t explain the use of Beyovm “in the day” that is used in Genesis 2:4 in reference to all that God had created and made. So how do you explain this usage?

BNR32FAN said:

That still doesn’t explain the use of Beyovm “in the day” that is used in Genesis 2:4 in reference to all that God had created and made. So how do you explain this usage?

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I do not think the Bible is wrong. It uses the word to describe specific days, as all translations seem to accept.

Why not just accept His word as it is?

The Barbarian said:

I do not think the Bible is wrong. It uses the word to describe specific days, as all translations seem to accept.

Why not just accept His word as it is?

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I never said the Bible is wrong. So you’re just going to ignore the usage in Genesis 2:4? Because I’ve already mentioned it twice and both times you declined to address it.

The Barbarian said:

God says that he didn't. He died physically many years after. And the Bible says that Jesus came to save us from death. If it was a physical death, Jesus failed. So you can ignore all of that if you want.

For both reasons, we know that the death that Adam brought into the world was not a physical death.

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If Adam didn’t bring physical death into the world then why does Paul say that “death came to all because all sinned” in Romans 5:11? Death came to Noah, Abraham, Job, Moses, etc, Were these men spiritually dead?

BNR32FAN said:

If Adam didn’t bring physical death into the world then why does Paul say that “death came to all because all sinned” in Romans 5:11?

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It wasn't a physical death. It was the death Jesus came here to save us from. If it was a physical death, then Jesus failed. This is another reason we believe God's word about it.

The Barbarian said:

It wasn't a physical death. It was the death Jesus came here to save us from. If it was a physical death, then Jesus failed. This is another reason we believe God's word about it.

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No I think Paul is contrasting between physical death and eternal life because if you say that the second death came to all because all sinned then that creates a problem with the fact that not everyone will be condemned to the lake of fire. The only death that all men face is physical death.

9Rock9 said:

So, I have been researching the various interpretations of Genesis and evolutionary theory and whether they can be reconciled.

I lean towards the framework hypothesis since it highlights Genesis as a theological narrative rather than scientific account. It doesn't really matter whether God used evolution or made everything in six literal day. God is still is the cause of all that exists and and is sovereign over all creation.

I do lean towards evolution, though idk about the strict Darwinian version of it. If evolution is so widely accepted among the scientific community, there's gotta be at least some merit to the idea.

One thing that makes me doubt evolution is the concept of original sin. If there were other humans aside from just Adam and Eve, then how are they impacted by original sin? Why are they punished for something Adam and Eve did? How was original sin passed on to them?

Assuming there were other humans around at the time, did they have the image of God, or was it just Adam and Eve? I think it's reasonable to say they were the representative figureheads of humanity, but did that mean they had some special version of the image of God?

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How about we turn it a bit and appreciate the effort of the author(s) of Genesis to deal with the universal painful aspects of our existence. We all suffer in this life until we eventually die. Why? Even salvation and redemption of Jesus does not extricate us from that reality.

But the real theological point of Original Sin is that of alienation, alienation from God as well as our true selves. When did it begin? Perhaps it is just part of our journey in the development of consciousness. If we evolved, then our consciousness also evolved, from darkness to light, from self involvement to other concern and solidarity. I think that is the main message of Jesus as well. Our progress is one of shifting from egoistic self centeredness to love of and for others in a more unified vision of our situation.

It wasn't a physical death. It was the death Jesus came here to save us from. If it was a physical death, then Jesus failed. This is another reason we believe God's word about it.

BNR32FAN said:

The only death that all men face is physical death.

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Which is how we know it wasn't a physical death. Adam died the day he ate from the tree. Jesus died to save us from that death. If it was a physical death, Jesus failed.

I haven't believed in a literal garden, and a literal Adam since I was a child.
Nevertheless, I believe the myth is providing us eternal truths that are true today.
And provide instructions for life today.

So I imagine a garden with a revolving door.

Everytime; I decide to reject our Good Lords love, lie to Him, and run and hide from Him ( figuratively speaking) the lease for my spot in the garden expires.

When I decide to make Him the ruler of my life again, the lease renews.

Flabound said:

When I decide to make Him the ruler of my life again, the lease renews.

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Not that I entirely agree with you, but I think you've got the right idea about your relationship with God.

The Barbarian said:

Not that I entirely agree with you, but I think you've got the right idea about your relationship with God.

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I'm no theologian.
Nor an Ernest Hemingway.

The point i believe strongly,
Is that Truth the text is communicating to us today, is eternal. It is as relevant today, as it was when it was written.

Frankly, it makes no difference to me if someone views the text literally, or figuratively.

Im interested in the message, the Truth. Hidden between the lines.

I find the literal vs figurative debates a distraction.

For example, was it really an apple? Or does the Word " fruit " reveal more?
versus debating what actually hung from that tree.

We're interested in " The Immaterial ", not the material. Right?

Are the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God (Heaven) the same reality, friendship with God?

Akita Suggagaki said:

Are the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God (Heaven) the same reality, friendship with God?

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That's a great question.

To the extent your speaking of the relationship( s ) between The Creator, and the created, I do see a symmetry.

The Barbarian said:

That's actually what it says. Now you could argue that the word is incorrectly translated and the Bible is wrong about what it says. But you can't deny what it says in English.

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He is right, though. Sorry, you and I often agree, but this time I think you missed.

The Hebrew phrase בְּיוֹם (beyom, “in/on the day”) doesn’t always mean a strict 24-hour calendar day. That phrase is used in Genesis 2:4, for example—“in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens” (ESV), which some translate as “when” (NIV)—where the phrase summarizes the creation period, which was not one literal day. So, it can mean a 24-hour period (you’re right), but it can also function idiomatically as “when” or “at the time when” (@BNR32FAN is right).

He is also right about the phrase marking the certainty and immediacy of judicial consequence: When he eats, Adam immediately comes under the sentence of death. He doesn’t need to physically expire before sunset for the warning to be fulfilled. He becomes liable to death, alienated from God, exiled from the sacramental tree of life, and placed under the curse—מוֹת תָּמוּת (mot tamut), a common Hebrew intensification that means Adam will “certainly” or “surely” die.

He is sentenced to return to dust (Gen. 3:19) and then barred from the tree of life (v. 22). That is the execution of the death sentence in historical form. Death enters immediately as judicial sentence and covenantal reality, and bodily death follows as the inevitable consummation of that sentence.

Flabound said:

We're interested in "the immaterial," not the material. Right?

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Speaking for myself: Both.

John Bauer said:

The Hebrew phrase בְּיוֹם (beyom, “in/on the day”) doesn’t always mean a strict 24-hour calendar day.

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As it is in English. "In my day..." or "it's a new day for our nation" is a different usage. But if I tell someone "the day you ingest a cyanide pill you will die", everyone knows what it means. It's not the figurative usage.

John Bauer said:

He is also right about the phrase marking the certainty and immediacy of judicial consequence: When he eats, Adam immediately comes under the sentence of death. He doesn’t need to physically expire before sunset for the warning to be fulfilled. He becomes liable to death, alienated from God, exiled from the sacramental tree of life, and placed under the curse—מוֹת תָּמוּת (mot tamut), a common Hebrew intensification that means Adam will “certainly” or “surely” die.

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I get that. God says this explicitly:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken.

And this confirms what the serpent said:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent was obviously a Biblical literalist, pointing out that the man would not die a physical death, subtly changing the meaning of God's warning. The physical death came about because of Adam's disobedience to God, and his removal from the Garden where the Tree of Life would have let him live forever.

Platte said:

So God no longer gave Adam the ability to eat from the tree of life?

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Yes. Because merely eating from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil would not cause him to die physically. God specifically says that if He doesn't do something, Adam will live on forever, even after eating from the tree.

Platte said:

What was the impact of that to Adam? Did that mean he would surely die?

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By expelling Adam from the Garden, God withheld from him the tree of life. And that is why he didn't live forever physically.

Flabound said:

I'm no theologian.
Nor an Ernest Hemingway.

The point i believe strongly,
Is that Truth the text is communicating to us today, is eternal. It is as relevant today, as it was when it was written.

Frankly, it makes no difference to me if someone views the text literally, or figuratively.

Im interested in the message, the Truth. Hidden between the lines.

Click to expand...

Today's winner.

9Rock9 said:

So, I have been researching the various interpretations of Genesis and evolutionary theory and whether they can be reconciled.

I lean towards the framework hypothesis since it highlights Genesis as a theological narrative rather than scientific account. It doesn't really matter whether God used evolution or made everything in six literal day. God is still is the cause of all that exists and and is sovereign over all creation.

I do lean towards evolution, though idk about the strict Darwinian version of it. If evolution is so widely accepted among the scientific community, there's gotta be at least some merit to the idea.

One thing that makes me doubt evolution is the concept of original sin. If there were other humans aside from just Adam and Eve, then how are they impacted by original sin? Why are they punished for something Adam and Eve did? How was original sin passed on to them?

Assuming there were other humans around at the time, did they have the image of God, or was it just Adam and Eve? I think it's reasonable to say they were the representative figureheads of humanity, but did that mean they had some special version of the image of God?

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What is the original sin?

I guess because we are of man we consider Adam's sin as the original sin but it is not.

Satan committed the original sin: Isaiah 14:12 ---- Isaiah 28:12-19. And somehow enticed 1/3 of the Angels to follow him and were all cast down to the Earth. He was in his fallen state when he beguiled/seduced Eve.

And even if you start at Adam committing A original sin. Man and his kind we're punished. The Bible tells us it was Adam's sin that brought death into the world and if any of The offspring of Adam did not have that sinful nature and commit no sin they would not die or be sick or face judgement. But all have sinned, except one who was born in the flesh and his name was Yeshua called Jesus in English, but because of the flesh body he had to let it go back to the Earth so that he could return to heaven and be the one who our salvation is given under.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12 - Death in Adam, Life in Christ

The order of occurrence of evolution and creation go hand in hand..... Is it possible what man calls evolution is a process God used, yes it's possible..... except for man, God did not tell the Earth to bring forth man as he told the Earth to bring forth plants and animals and told the waters to bring forth living creatures - God formed in himself and placed man in the garden which he had prepared, God breathed the breath of life into man himself. Man is different!

And personally I believe Adam had many many children before he sinned, enough so that they had scattered / migrated to different areas of lands. The Land of Nod already had a name and generally a land was named after its founder in those days. Plus the people God told not to kill Cain, it had to be other people. ... All offspring WERE of Adam and Eve they did have access to the tree of Life which gave them a form of immortality which was Healing of any deformities, disease, sickness, that may occur. Genesis 3:22 tells us why God put them out of the garden because if they ate of the fruit (again) they would live forever, and he couldn't have that with man's sin out and now open.

There are those who will say that Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree of Life because the Bible doesn't say they did - there are a lot of things that the Bible doesn't say but are assumed to happen and taught as such. God told them in the beginning to eat of it, so why wouldn't they?

The Barbarian said:

And yet, Adam did not die that day physically. That came many years later. So we know that it wasn't a physical death.

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Doesn't 2 Peter 3:8 resolve this? "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." We aren't given the duration of "a day" when God tells Adam that he will die in the day he eats of the fruit, but we are given the duration of a day in Genesis 1, and that duration is a 24-hour period consisting of an evening and a morning. So Adam did die in the day he ate of the fruit, a literal physical death.

Even if we can argue that Adam's death in the day he ate of the fruit wasn't a physical death, it doesn't change that physical death is a bad thing, and it's strange that God would call a world with physical death in it "very good".