The last trump

1Tonne · Apr 30, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Paul does not say "a voice by an archangel." Why do you?
You are both completely ignoring the fact that Jesus' voice could sound like a trumpet. If so, there is no reason He could not sound like an archangel also.

Do you really think that Jesus was making the sound of a trumpet? Of cause He was not.
The text In Rev 1:1 simply means that He spoke loudly like a trumpet. Once again, I do not believe the original author was trying to say that the sound coming out of His mouth was like "Braaah, Braaah Braaah, Bri, Bri, Bri, Bri, Braaaaaaah" That would be reading into it. How can that sound like someone speaking?

WilliamLhk · Apr 30, 2026

1Tonne said:
I have seen how Spiritual Jew treats other people on here. It is common.

...but not how a Christian should speak to or about another Christian. This difference of interpretation is not an issue essential to the Gospel message.

1Tonne said:
If 20 people read the text as it is, all 20 would understand it to be an angel. Not Jesus.

Clearly untrue. I don't, never even considered it; and neither does Douggg.

The Greek grammar is just as I stated it. If you can prove my grammatical explanation is wrong, please provide the evidence.

Copy in "true/false: the Greek genitive case is used to show possession, instead of using an apostrophe s as English does" to any AI that you choose, and see.

1Tonne · Apr 30, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
...but not how a Christian should speak to or about another Christian. This difference of interpretation is not an issue essential to the Gospel message.

Clearly untrue. I don't, never even considered it; and neither does Douggg.

The Greek grammar is just as I stated it. If you can prove my grammatical explanation is wrong, please provide the evidence.

Copy in "true/false: the Greek genitive case is used to show possession, instead of using an apostrophe s as English does" to any AI that you choose, and see.

As you said, this is not an essential issue. I could continue debating but it is not an essential issue for me. If you wish to believe that way, then that is fine. I do hope that someday with this issue, you come to a new understanding. Blessing.

WilliamLhk · Apr 30, 2026

If Paul had wanted to indicate that an archangel would be present at this event, he would have used the preposition sun/together with, not en/in/with. Or wrote, "a voice of command, AND the voice of an archangel..."

He did neither. So the text says that everything -- the voice of command, the archangelic voice, and the trumpet are all acts of Jesus, the ONLY subject noun in the sentence.

WilliamLhk · Apr 30, 2026

1Tonne said:
I could continue debating...

Your only arguments have been 'everybody thinks so,' and, 'it is obvious that.' These are the same arguments I've seen over and over again on Christian forums, when people cannot provide actual empirical or grammatical evidence to support their case.

1Tonne · Apr 30, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Your only arguments have been 'everybody thinks so,' and, 'it is obvious that.' These are the same arguments I've seen over and over again on Christian forums, when people cannot provide actual empirical or grammatical evidence to support their case.

You’re overreading the genitive and ignoring the structure of the verse.
1 Thess 4:16 has three parallel phrases:
-with a shout
-with a voice of an archangel
-with a trumpet of God

These are three accompanying signals, not three ways of describing Jesus’ voice. If your logic were consistent, Jesus would also be the “trumpet of God,” which makes no sense.
Also, your comparison with Revelation 1:10 doesn’t work. That verse explicitly says “like a trumpet” (a simile). 1 Thess 4:16 does not say “like an archangel”, it simply says “voice of an archangel,” which naturally means the archangel is the source of the voice.

Yes, the genitive can show possession, but that actually supports the normal reading: an archangel’s voice, not Jesus imitating one.
So your interpretation is technically possible, but it ignores the grammar in context and forces a meaning that isn’t there.

But as I said, this debate it pretty pointless as I cannot see you changing your view. Hopefully one day, you come to a better understanding. Blessings.

WilliamLhk · Apr 30, 2026

1Tonne said:
You’re overreading the genitive and ignoring the structure of the verse.
1 Thess 4:16 has three parallel phrases:
-with a shout
-with a voice of an archangel
-with a trumpet of God

These are three accompanying signals, not three ways of describing Jesus’ voice.

These are three acts of Jesus, who is the only subject noun in the sentence. Archangel is genitive, voice is dative.

1Tonne said:
If your logic were consistent, Jesus would also be the “trumpet of God,” which makes no sense.

No, the clear meaning is He has a trumpet. Just like He has, at this time, an archangel's voice when speaking His shout of command. Even as, at the time in Rev. 1:10-11, He has "a loud voice, as of a trumpet."

You have absolutely no justification to limit how Jesus may manifest His voice. For another example,

Rev. 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters/φωνὴ ὑδάτων πολλῶν.

1Tonne said:
Hopefully one day, you come to a better understanding. Blessings.

1Tonne · Apr 30, 2026

I know you will continue to think as you do. So, blessings.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 30, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Says you. But that is only your rationalized opinion. Neither the verse, nor any other scripture, says that.

No verse says that Jesus sounds like an archangel. He is God and man and not an archangel. You have no explanation for why His voice would sound like an archangel.

WilliamLhk said:
If you had ever studied Greek grammar, you would know that "the genitive case is used to show possession, instead of using an apostrophe s as English does." In the phrase ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου, ἀρχαγγέλου is in the genitive, so Jesus speaks "in/with a voice of command in/with an archangel's voice." The passage is describing Jesus and what He will do. The word archangel is neither a subject nor an object of the sentence.

I do not believe that you are a Greek expert. I see so many people on these forums pretend as if they are when they so clearly are not. This argument is not even a tiny bit convincing. Tell me why Jesus would sound like an archangel? Are you pre-trib and are trying to find any way you can to deny that angels will be with Jesus when we are gathered to Him in the air?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 30, 2026

1Tonne said:
Do you really think that Jesus was making the sound of a trumpet? Of cause He was not.
The text In Rev 1:1 simply means that He spoke loudly like a trumpet. Once again, I do not believe the original author was trying to say that the sound coming out of His mouth was like "Braaah, Braaah Braaah, Bri, Bri, Bri, Bri, Braaaaaaah"

This made me literally laugh out loud. Yeah, His voice does not literally sound like a trumpet nor does it sound like an archangel.

WilliamLhk · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
If 20 people read the text as it is, all 20 would understand it to be an angel. Not Jesus.

Matthew Poole's Commentary: "And whether he will put forth an audible voice or not at that day, or whether this archangel be not the same with Christ himself, who is the Head of all principality and power, Colossians 2:10, I leave it as doubtful..."

Meyer's NT Commentary: "...Ambrosiaster and Olshausen, as well as Alphen and Honert (in Wolf), understand no angel at all, but the two first understand Christ (!), and the two last the Holy Ghost (!)..."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head", or "prince of angels"..."

joechristianwarrior · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
That approach starts with a rapture view and then fits the text into it. Sound interpretation should begin with the text and allow the text to shape our theology.

That is sad considering he was making good points. You should take him off and continue to discuss as you may learn something from him. If you are closed to someone scrutineering your view, then you may never find holes in it.

This is a very good point for Doug to see. Jesus specifically states 4 times that believers are raised on the last day. We even see that the disciples also believed it. We can even look at the quotes from early believers that may have known the disciples or know of someone who may have personally knew them, what they believed. Here are four quotes from early Christians (110-180 AD) that support a final resurrection at the end of time, not a pre-trib rapture:

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), Letter to the Smyrneans 6:1 (This is the oldest quote): "Be on guard, then, that you do not follow the doctrines of empty delusions and of false teachings, which promise a resurrection before the suffering, as if it were possible to escape the final trial. For there is one resurrection, and it occurs at the end, when Christ comes in glory." NOTE: Ignatius may not have known the full Revelation 20 details. Revelation was likely written around 95 AD, and Ignatius’ letters were written 110 AD. Even if he knew it, he was summarizing the general resurrection in terms familiar to his audience.

Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), Dialogue with Trypho 81: "Those who have suffered for righteousness, and those who have died in faith, shall be raised first to reign with Christ; but the rest of the dead shall rise at the end of the world, to receive what is due according to their works."

Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), First Apology 33 “For all who have lived rightly, whether before or after Christ, shall rise again at the last day; they shall receive immortality and live with God forever. This resurrection is the one that Scripture calls ‘the resurrection of the last day.’”

Irenaeus (c. 180 AD), Against Heresies 5.32.1–2 “Those who have been slain for righteousness’ sake are raised first to reign with Christ for a thousand years. After this, the rest of the dead shall rise, each to receive according to their works.”

I have more if needed.

So, if Jesus, the disciples and the early believers all believed that we are raised on the last day, we too should believe it. Especially Jesus' words where He says we are raised on the last day.

How many of us are actually living like we believe it, though?

BPPLEE · May 1, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Matthew Poole's Commentary: "And whether he will put forth an audible voice or not at that day, or whether this archangel be not the same with Christ himself, who is the Head of all principality and power, Colossians 2:10, I leave it as doubtful..."

Meyer's NT Commentary: "...Ambrosiaster and Olshausen, as well as Alphen and Honert (in Wolf), understand no angel at all, but the two first understand Christ (!), and the two last the Holy Ghost (!)..."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head", or "prince of angels"..."

Are you saying that Jesus and Micheal are the same?

WilliamLhk · May 1, 2026

BPPLEE said:
Are you saying that Jesus and Micheal are the same?

Nope. I am saying in essence that the only person who can definitively explain what Paul meant in this verse is Paul, and he's dead.

Anyone who thinks he is infallible in his understanding of the verse is only deceiving himself. Anyone who uses his viewpoint to castigate another believer for his differing viewpoint is serving the purpose of the "accuser of the brethren."

1Tonne · May 1, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Matthew Poole's Commentary: "And whether he will put forth an audible voice or not at that day, or whether this archangel be not the same with Christ himself, who is the Head of all principality and power, Colossians 2:10, I leave it as doubtful..."

Meyer's NT Commentary: "...Ambrosiaster and Olshausen, as well as Alphen and Honert (in Wolf), understand no angel at all, but the two first understand Christ (!), and the two last the Holy Ghost (!)..."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible: "the sense be, that Christ shall descend from heaven with a voice, or shall then utter such a voice, as will show him to be the archangel; or as the Syriac version renders it, "the head", or "prince of angels"..."

Obviously you will be able to cherry pick a few people that will back your view. I do not doubt that. But your first quote undercuts your view. Matthew Poole states that he doubts that this archangel is Christ himself.

BPPLEE said:
Are you saying that Jesus and Micheal are the same?

I think that this may be a Jehovah Witness teaching.

WilliamLhk said:
Anyone who thinks he is infallible in his understanding of the verse is only deceiving himself.

Lucky we have the Holy Spirit to guide us with these things. He will lead us into all truth. So, in time, those who have the Holy Spirit who are interpreting incorrectly, will eventually understand.

joechristianwarrior said:
How many of us are actually living like we believe it, though?

Yes, this is the real issue, bigger than all the end-times debates. Many people who call themselves believers will debate end times until their face is blue but are their lives reflecting what they profess to believe?

If we truly believe in God, judgment, heaven and hell, and that Christ died for sin, then our lives should reflect that. As James says, faith without works is dead, a profession without a changed life is empty.
And part of living in a way that shows true belief is to do as God commanded, to tell as many people as possible the Gospel. Also, part of that change is to love our neighbour enough not to stay silent. If we really believe people face judgment, then warning them and pointing them to Christ is an act of love, not harshness. To not warn them, as many believers choose not to do, is not loving our neighbour.
Penn Jillette once said, "If you know of everlasting life, and you know of everlasting death, how much do you have to hate somebody to not tell them of it?"
Acts 1:8 shows that the Spirit was given so that we would speak. So, a Spirit-shaped life will move toward telling people what Jesus did on the cross, even if imperfectly, even if with some fear.

The question isn’t just what do we believe about the end, it’s, are we living and speaking like it’s true?
So, live in a way that honours God and don't be like most Christians who stay quiet. Love people enough to tell people the Gospel.

Spiritual Jew · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
Obviously you will be able to cherry pick a few people that will back your view. I do not doubt that. But your first quote undercuts your view. Matthew Poole states that he doubts that this archangel is Christ himself.

I think that this may be a Jehovah Witness teaching.

Lucky we have the Holy Spirit to guide us with these things. He will lead us into all truth. So, in time, those who have the Holy Spirit who are interpreting incorrectly, will eventually understand.

Yes, this is the real issue, bigger than all the end-times debates. Many people who call themselves believers will debate end times until their face is blue but are their lives reflecting what they profess to believe?

If we truly believe in God, judgment, heaven and hell, and that Christ died for sin, then our lives should reflect that. As James says, faith without works is dead, a profession without a changed life is empty.
And part of living in a way that shows true belief is to do as God commanded, to tell as many people as possible the Gospel. Also, part of that change is to love our neighbour enough not to stay silent. If we really believe people face judgment, then warning them and pointing them to Christ is an act of love, not harshness. To not warn them, as many believers choose not to do, it not loving our neighbour.

Before seeing what you said right after this, I immediately thought of what Penn Jillette once said and then I saw that you had that in mind, also.

1Tonne said:
Penn Jillette once said, "If you know of everlasting life, and you know of everlasting death, how much do you have to hate somebody to not tell them of it?"

Very true. To not tell people about not only God's offer of eternal life through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but also to not tell them that they will experience eternal death if they reject His offer is like seeing someone who is unaware of a fire or tornado or something heading towards them that will kill them and just letting them die without warning them about what's coming. Some Christians might assume that their neighbor or co-worker or whoever already knows about this, but why take that chance? We need to make sure they are aware of it so that they can choose how to respond.

WilliamLhk · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
Matthew Poole states that he doubts that this archangel is Christ himself.

You misrepresent what he said: "whether he will put forth an audible voice or not at that day, or whether this archangel be not the same with Christ himself, who is the Head of all principality and power, Colossians 2:10, I leave it as doubtful..."

Whether or not means he is undecided on either view. So he hardly fits into your claim of a 20 for 20 agreement of everyone.

1Tonne said:
Lucky we have the Holy Spirit to guide us with these things. He will lead us into all truth. So, in time, those who have the Holy Spirit who are interpreting incorrectly, will eventually understand.

So then do you claim, or do you not, that your view of the archangel passage is "all truth." Are you speaking as a prophet? or as a commentator with an educated opinion?

WilliamLhk · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
Obviously you will be able to cherry pick a few people that will back your view.

Read the Bible Hub recital of commentaries for yourself. You will find that most of them agree with your view, but a sizeable percentage of them either equivocate or have another view.
You really should be more humble in your pronouncements of truth. But then, you are still a young man, and perhaps haven't been humbled yet. You will be, given enough experience.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 Commentaries: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

BPPLEE · May 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
Obviously you will be able to cherry pick a few people that will back your view. I do not doubt that. But your first quote undercuts your view. Matthew Poole states that he doubts that this archangel is Christ himself.

I think that this may be a Jehovah Witness teaching.

Lucky we have the Holy Spirit to guide us with these things. He will lead us into all truth. So, in time, those who have the Holy Spirit who are interpreting incorrectly, will eventually understand.

Yes, this is the real issue, bigger than all the end-times debates. Many people who call themselves believers will debate end times until their face is blue but are their lives reflecting what they profess to believe?

If we truly believe in God, judgment, heaven and hell, and that Christ died for sin, then our lives should reflect that. As James says, faith without works is dead, a profession without a changed life is empty.
And part of living in a way that shows true belief is to do as God commanded, to tell as many people as possible the Gospel. Also, part of that change is to love our neighbour enough not to stay silent. If we really believe people face judgment, then warning them and pointing them to Christ is an act of love, not harshness. To not warn them, as many believers choose not to do, it not loving our neighbour.
Penn Jillette once said, "If you know of everlasting life, and you know of everlasting death, how much do you have to hate somebody to not tell them of it?"
Acts 1:8 shows that the Spirit was given so that we would speak. So, a Spirit-shaped life will move toward telling people what Jesus did on the cross, even if imperfectly, even if with some fear.

The question isn’t just what do we believe about the end, it’s, are we living and speaking like it’s true?
So, live in a way that honours God and don't be like most Christians who stay quiet. Love people enough to tell people the Gospel.

It’s not just JWs. Spurgeon, Wesley and Calvin all believed that Jesus is Micheal

1Tonne · May 1, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
You really should be more humble in your pronouncements of truth. But then, you are still a young man, and perhaps haven't been humbled yet. You will be, given enough experience.

Sorry, if I have not seemed humble. (Thanks for calling me young. I am not that young at all.)

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