BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
We must do the commandments in 1John 3:20-24 to bear fruit
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I misspoke. If people are keeping the 10 commandments because they say they have to because, they believe God does not justify the ungodly, then they have set aside the grace of God.
To continue:
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. NKJV
Abraham did not do any works to be justified. God called him righteous prior to any work he did.
Genesis 22:11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." 12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now, I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." NKJV
Years later when Abraham did not withhold Isaac God stated, “ now I know that you fear God.” Did Abraham gear God or did God do the work for Abraham in order for Abraham to fear God. In other words, did God put that fear in Abraham and make Abraham fear God?
We are told to look to Jesus for answers.
Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me." 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." 40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done." 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand." NKJV
Did Jesus go to the cross willingly? Yes, but only after He prayed for the Father to change His mind. Jesus knew that it was written that He would die willingly on the cross, yet He prayed that the Father would rewrite His word. Jesus' final word was “Your will be done.” Jesus had to be willing to let the Father's will replace His will. God the Father did not force Jesus to die on the cross.
And what enabled Jesus to bow to the Father's will? Jesus loved the Father and was always obedient to Him.
Jesus has given us His love when we first believed in Him. But just like Jesus we must be willing to let God's will overpower ours. If we use the tools Jesus gave us, then Jesus did it all. But we have to be willing to let His will overpower ours to be obedient.
To continue:
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. NKJV
Abraham did not do any works to be justified. God called him righteous prior to any work he did.
Genesis 22:11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." 12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now, I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." NKJV
Years later when Abraham did not withhold Isaac God stated, “ now I know that you fear God.” Did Abraham gear God or did God do the work for Abraham in order for Abraham to fear God. In other words, did God put that fear in Abraham and make Abraham fear God?
We are told to look to Jesus for answers.
Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me." 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." 40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done." 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand." NKJV
Did Jesus go to the cross willingly? Yes, but only after He prayed for the Father to change His mind. Jesus knew that it was written that He would die willingly on the cross, yet He prayed that the Father would rewrite His word. Jesus' final word was “Your will be done.” Jesus had to be willing to let the Father's will replace His will. God the Father did not force Jesus to die on the cross.
And what enabled Jesus to bow to the Father's will? Jesus loved the Father and was always obedient to Him.
Jesus has given us His love when we first believed in Him. But just like Jesus we must be willing to let God's will overpower ours. If we use the tools Jesus gave us, then Jesus did it all. But we have to be willing to let His will overpower ours to be obedient.
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Dan Perez
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AND here is what I see. in. Matt 28:18. it is spoken. to the 12 disciples for ONE !
# 2 It was not baptizing , why you will say BECASE where is the Water as I do not see the word WATER. // HYDOR !!
# 3 And Luke says in. Acts 1:5 that WATER BAPTISM. will disappear. >
# 4 And can you explain why Jesus was BAPTIZED. since he had no sins and saying to to fulfill are righteousness
will not help. you !!
Explain 1 Cor 10:2 how all were BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN. THE CLOUD and in the SEA ??
dan p
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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I have no idea just what you are saying. What is a Trinity foul?
Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." NKJV
It sounds to me like Jesus is praying for the Father to find another way.
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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Any claims that God and Jesus had different wills would be a trinity foul
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3 times Jesus said let this cup pass from me.
Luke 22:41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. NKJV
In plain English Jesus said "not my will" but Yours be done. Yes, the Father and Jesus had the same will because Jesus bowed to the will of the Father.
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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The general thumb nail error check is any time you try to divide members of the trinity, one from another. General heresy
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He would have done it anyway if it was God's will, and wouldn't have if it wasn't, because it's impossible to do/not do anything that is not already in God's will, because God has already wrote it, etc. But the struggle still does teach us a lot however, etc. But it's impossible not to always do what God wants in the end, etc.
God Bless.
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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You're welcome to do your own gut check, i.e.was Jesus' will in conflict with God's Will?
If the answer is yes, that would be classic heresy
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See post #90 (right above these two)
Short answer: That's impossible for anybody, etc.
All of the moments of apparent conflict, are just an egotistical, ego-driven delusion/illusion, etc.
But they are always meant to teach us something, etc.
But you are always going to do what you were always meant to do anyway, and there is no other way, etc.
God Bless.
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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So, your saying Jesus' will was not different than the Father's will. I stand by what I said. And it sounds to me as though your calling Jesus a liar because, you say, His will cannot be different than the Father's will. This was written for us to learn from. God does not force His children to obey! We like Jesus have the option to obey or not to obey. That way obedience comes from love and not from fear. That is worship in spirit and truth.
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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Nope. One Accord. Always.
Jesus lived a divine perfect life, period. He had no disoedience within to disobey with. He was not a sinner like you or I. He had NO SIN, period. We don't have that position.
We don't get to chose to obey or disobey because we are never in perfect obedience to start with. Any obedience we might have is always tinged with disobedience, evil present within, disobedient thoughts to chose from. Jesus didn't have that kind of affliction.
He didn't have to chose to obey or not. Whatever He did was, quite simply, perfect.
God is not in need. Your position seems to suffer from thinking God needs something out of you or else your lack of whatever forces Him into some other corner where he has no choice than to do something else.
That's not any kind of God.
God can make a jackass talk. He can do the same with us if he wanted to. God can do anything in case you missed it. That's what makes Him God
See above. Jesus didn't have sinful thoughts to reject. Like us.
God is not in need of man's love. We do not hold Him hostage or force Him into any corners. God could, with one wink, make you the exact same as Jesus. And at the end that's exactly what will happen.
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Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." NKJV
Mark 14:35 He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. 36 And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." NKJV
Luke 22:41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." NKJV
You're saying the above statement by Jesus, recorded by 3 apostles, translated the same in most accepted translations, is in error?
It sounds to me like Jesus did not want to go to the cross and did so because He was always obedient to the Father. Was Jesus suffering anguish or play acting?
You are reading things into my posts that is not there.
Just where in my posts do I imply anything like that?
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BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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It sounds to me like you've been falsely led to look for a difference, which led you headlong into a heresy position about the Trinity, which also explains a lot about your other hyper legalistic works positions as well.
Their Wills worked in One Accord, as with the Spirit.
Jesus knew from the beginning, before He was even born, what path He'd take in His life, inclusive of His death on a cross. Laid out in the O.T. Written by Him no less, the Spirit of Christ speaking through the prophets, working God's Will THROUGH the very people that participated in every event up to and including everything about His life and including WORKING THROUGH those who participated in killing Him, 1 Pet. 1:10-11, Acts 2:23-32, Acts 4:26-28 (and many many more)
And it was a real physical death that Jesus endured.
Pretty sure your can O worms positions have many other holes in them as well.
It would behoove you to study other positions which are more encompassing of Divine Providence, Omniscience, OmniPresence, Omnipotence. It would provide more respect for God and less respect for you, rightly due. Nothing personal. Jesus will save you regardless of phony performances and phony doctrines because He's God, the Savior of the world.
Your positions however, are quite askew.
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In Matt 32:39, Mk 14: 36 and Lk 14: 42 Jesus clearly expresses there is a difference of wills between what His Father wanted and what He wanted. It only takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. Anyone who denies what Jesus has stated is calling Him a liar. Adam calling God a liar, by His actions, is what started humanities struggle with sin. You haven't learned much. It is only when we believe Jesus' testimony have we repented.
Hebrews 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, NKJV
I agree He knew it all prior to His coming. Yet, by His suffering He, as the scriptures state, learned obedience. It was only by Jesus' suffering, as shown in the gospels, that He was perfected. (You will again say that I'm a heretic by this post. How can God be perfected? I must be saying that the trinity is not perfect. How can God learn anything? I am quoting scripture and I believe it.) Jesus learned what it means to be obedient to God in the flesh! It hurts. A Spirit cannot die, nor does it suffer physically. The man Jesus did not want to suffer physical death on the cross. The man Jesus was like all men, except He was by His nature totally obedient to God, even when, in His flesh, He did not want to be. By denying Jesus' difference of His will by His death, you are denying Jesus' suffering. Talk about worms in what one believes.
I urge you to believe scripture and not the teaching of man.
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