Did Jesus die for our sins, or did he die because of our sins?

This concept of dying for our sins is easily misconstrued. Jesus' death (He died because of our sins)) and the results were to show us of God's absolute rule. Rule over all, especially the rebellious elohim who ruled the world of man using death as their ultimate weapon of control, keeping us separated from God.

Our sins were not forgiven then, but instead we were given an alternative. Three times mankind fell at the hands of the elohim; in the Garden, pre-flood and at Babel. Now, thanks to Jesus, the world was not judged as a whole but upon individual merit. Mankind murdered Jesus as God knew we would, simply because we place our selfishness and love of control over everything else, especially the Kingdom being a threat as it is a counter-culture to this world of our making. Jesus' resurrection opened the door to God's Kingdom to the dead and the living, who prior to this were trapped by the rebellious elohim. The story is much bigger than just about us.

Were our sins forgiven at His death? No. Do we still die? Yes. We were given an opportunity, a choice to be made that could reverse what happened in the Garden. It involves allegiance to the Will of God, rather than to ourselves or elohim. It is the change/repentance required of us where we learn to live, not in the ways of the world we have made in our own, and the rebellious elohim's image, but in the ways of the Kingdom. We were told by Jesus and by God since the Garden, why we failed (our self-serving ways) and we were given the cure to the woes of this world,. Putting God as supreme ruler over all and acting in servitude to each other in need as we would expect God to treat us. No more self-indulgence causing pain/loss to others.

We were given only one gospel , the Gospel of the Kingdom and are to follow it and spread it if we expect acceptance into the Kingdom to Come. Our sins were not automatically forgiven at the cross. A door was opened giving us the opportunity and choice to rectify ourselves. We must show we are worthy by doing for each other what we expect for ourselves in the Kingdom. Cut and dried. True, no works can bring about resurrection or the Kingdom. That was grace, a gift from God. But our works show if we are grain or tares. We will reap what we sow while here, and our seeds will either be accepted or rejected. It's still all on us.

A lot is made of the word “for” being used in “Christ died for us” suggesting it must mean “instead of”, but any good word study of all the Greek words translated “for” would yield more likely interpretations of “for”. If the writers wanted to convey the idea of “instead of” they should have used the Greek word “anti” which can mean “instead of”. The Greek word translate “for” are translated mostly mean “because of” or “to the benefit of” and even anti has that meaning sometimes, so “Christ died for us” would mean “Christ died as a benefit to us” and “Christ died for our sins” would translate “Christ died because of our sins”.

If the writers wanted us to understand Christ being our substitute he should have used the Greek word “anti”, but of the 22 times “anti” is used in the NT only one time is it used and recorded twice when Christ talks about being “a ransom for many”, but again “anti” does not have to mean “instead of”, since it is used many times as an example: “an eye for an eye” (for=because of) and the coin found in the fish “for Peter and Christ” (to benefit). The issue here is: “Who is the ransom paid to”, which I talked about in my last post.

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom payment:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

We should agree on:

• Jesus life and death is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?
• The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?
• Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?
• All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?
• The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

Now think about this:

In the context of first century time and the people being addressed how would they have understood this idea of an unbelievable huge ransom being paid. Does the “ransoming” fit a kidnapping ransom? The Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints” and there is a redemption (setting free).

Peter even helps us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper, in general, holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom?

The Kidnapper cannot be God, since He is not an undeserving criminal kidnapper holding His own children back.

Also, the Kidnapper would not be satan, since God has the power to take from satan, without paying anything to satan. There is no cosmic Law saying you got to pay the kidnapper and it would be wrong to do so, if you could get around it and satan is fully undeserving.

We know death, sin and evil were concurred with Christ’s death and resurrection, but those are not tangible things needing to be paid anything.

So who is the kidnapper?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, a church or something else? NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does accept this, then a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment.

Could the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God, be described as a criminal kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

Parents will make huge sacrificial payments to have their children released, but it is still up to the kidnapper to accept or reject the ransom.

There was no ransom required as
In everyday matters, redemption meant the release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

HOWEVER, according to a Jewish encyclopedia, when it came to DIVINE matters, it did not mean payment or replacement, BUT rather it meant gifted liberation from bondage or oppression, including death.

That was the definitions understood of redemption from the Hebrew viewpoint in Jesus' day.
(The Greek meaning was ransom, but notice that conflicts with the notion of liberation.)

Jesus was the only human clean enough to fulfill God's purposes to reverse the Garden event.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Did Jesus die for our sins, or did he die because of our sins?

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What is the difference?

timothyu said:

There was no ransom required as
In everyday matters, redemption meant the release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

HOWEVER, according to a Jewish encyclopedia, when it came to DIVINE matters, it did not mean payment or replacement, BUT rather it meant gifted liberation from bondage or oppression, including death.

That was the definitions understood of redemption from the Hebrew viewpoint in Jesus' day.
(The Greek meaning was ransom, but notice that conflicts with the notion of liberation.)

Jesus was the only human clean enough to fulfill God's purposes to reverse the Garden event.

Click to expand...

I did not originate the idea of describing the atonement sacrifice as a literal ransom payment and the captive being set free at an unbelievable huge price. Jesus, Paul, Peter, john and the Hebrew writer present it that way.

There is nothing about “reversing the Garden Event”.

If there is not “Kidnapper” than it should not be called a huge ransom and the release of an innocent child into the Kingdom, only slightly similar to a parent’s ransom payment for the release of their child.

Was God in heaven also empathetically crucified with Christ?

How can I empathetically be crucified with Christ if Christ is not first crucified?

Is there a benefit to being disciplined for my sins, by being empathetically crucified?

Xeno.of.athens said:

Did Jesus die for our sins, or did he die because of our sins?

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Both.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Give the question a chance ... let's see.

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I don't understand - you posted the question - if you want clarity - explain what the difference is?

Xeno.of.athens said:

But there is an intellectual and emotional difference too. Because give emphasis to the compassionate act of Christ and his love for human beings while also pointing to the terrible price of human sins.

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Sure. I wouldn't disagree with you on this.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I do not want to explain the question to you.

Click to expand...

ok

Did Jesus die for our sins, or did he die because of our sins?

These two propositions are not mutually exclusive — they are, in fact, complementary perspectives on the same event viewed through different lenses.

Romans 5 answers your question

Sin began in the garden and God had the answer to sin - even told the serpent:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”


Sin is the causation - Jesus' death burial and resurrection is the answer. The two propositions are not separate - but joined.