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TRUMP "MISSED THE DEADLINE" TO CALL OFF TX GERRYMANDERING; CALIFORNIA WILL NOW DRAW NEW, MORE “BEAUTIFUL MAPS”

The Barbarian

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crooked /kroo͝k′ĭd/

adjective​

  1. Having or marked by bends, curves, or angles.
  2. At an irregular or improper angle; askew.
    "Your necktie is crooked."
  3. Dishonest or unscrupulous; fraudulent.
 
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probinson

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Those rules dont exist.

Yes they do. If you say you don't support gerrymandering, then don't vote for gerrymandering.

Whether it is "allowed" or not is not relevant. If you don't support it, then don't vote for it.

The rules now are: partisan gerrmandering is allowed.

But if you don't support it, then you don't vote for it, no matter whether it's "allowed" or not.

So we're back to let your opposition play by the actual rules, while you pretend there's some other rules in play - to your own disadvantage.

No, I'm talking about integrity. And if I say, "I don't support gerrymandering", then I will NEVER vote for gerrymandering. Even if that disadvantages me.

Have you never stood by your convictions even when it personally disadvantaged you? I have. Is it easy? Nope. But integrity means something to me, and it's not something I surrender just because someone else isn't playing fair. I don't expect many people to understand this position.

Sometimes life presents a choice between bad and worse. If youve lived a bit you understand.

What a load of condescending cow flop.

Of course there are times when there are poor decisions and you MUST choose between the lesser of two evils. Voting for gerrymandering while pretending you don't support gerrymandering is not one of those times.

I get why people want to frame it that way. The whole, "We had no choice" absolves one's conscience of a decision they made that is directly opposed to what they say they support. But it just doesn't hold water here.

What the whole recent debacle around gerrymandering has proven to me is that both parties will do whatever they need to do to secure and retain power. They will give lip service to the notion that they're against gerrymandering, but the real-world results speak for themselves.
 
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probinson

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So do you think republicans should join democrats in their attempt to make Gerrymandering illegal?

I think that's a leading question that falsely presupposes that Democrats are opposed to gerrymandering. But Democrats have been just as guilty of using gerrymandering to their advantage as have Republicans.

If the question were simply, do I think gerrymandering should be made illegal, the answer is yes.
 
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camille70

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Yes they do. If you say you don't support gerrymandering, then don't vote for gerrymandering.

Whether it is "allowed" or not is not relevant. If you don't support it, then don't vote for it.



But if you don't support it, then you don't vote for it, no matter whether it's "allowed" or not.



No, I'm talking about integrity. And if I say, "I don't support gerrymandering", then I will NEVER vote for gerrymandering. Even if that disadvantages me.

Have you never stood by your convictions even when it personally disadvantaged you? I have. Is it easy? Nope. But integrity means something to me, and it's not something I surrender just because someone else isn't playing fair. I don't expect many people to understand this position.



What a load of condescending cow flop.

Of course there are times when there are poor decisions and you MUST choose between the lesser of two evils. Voting for gerrymandering while pretending you don't support gerrymandering is not one of those times.

I get why people want to frame it that way. The whole, "We had no choice" absolves one's conscience of a decision they made that is directly opposed to what they say they support. But it just doesn't hold water here.

What the whole recent debacle around gerrymandering has proven to me is that both parties will do whatever they need to do to secure and retain power. They will give lip service to the notion that they're against gerrymandering, but the real-world results speak for themselves.

Dems do more than give lip service. For the most part they have fair maps intending to provide fair representation even for the GOP. In fact, part of the reason why the actions dems are taking have a more significant impact than the GOP is because red states have gerrymandered things to their advantage so much that their opportunities for pick ups are less. They have already cut dems out of things to the point that there aren't many more seats they can squeeze out of it. Dems however have a slew of red seats they can cut out because of their history of being fair.

You seem to want dems to be naive and essentially not address a threat that unfairly diminishes their power because they have a preference to act differently. I see no criticism of the GOP cutting out dem seats or going against their integrity by redrawing maps, even though its normally not done until each census or may involve going against state law to do what Trump asked them to do.

The GOP struck first. They started it and the dems are finishing it. I can be against violence and preach non violence but, if I'm physically attacked, do I lay down and take the beating and possibly die or be maimed for life, or fight back just as violently? You seem to want to limit how dems can respond because in an ideal situation they would prefer to move differently. Principles by themselves are not enough. You need wisdom and common sense. I can be 1000% against hand outs. If my child is starving, do I stick to my principles, or take the handout to feed myself and my child? I can be against harming any life in nature, no matter how small or insignificant. If my house becomes infested with termites or mice, do it stick to those principles and protect God's creatures or eradicate the threat to my shelter, health and safety?

Some say our choices are the lesser of two evils, I prefer to choose what is for harm reduction and the greater good.
 
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JSRG

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I would generally agree with this statement.

The problem is, how does one accomplish a truly objective, non-biased method of doing this? Any solution will be thought up by people. People with opinions. People with biases. People with political and financial conflicts of interest. People who will manipulate the data surreptitiously while pretending to be objective.

If I had a viable solution for that, I'd be doing more than sitting here discussing politics with strangers on the internet.

Some people try to suggest using non-partisan districting boards, but those then cause Democrats and Republicans to try to gain control of them more indirectly, and then it's harder to fix than simply electing new people. That said, they still do at least limit the mischief of gerrymandering.

Probably the best way to do it would not be to change who makes the maps, but change the requirements for the maps. Right now, congressional districts have to be of nearly equal population within a state; you can't have one district have 500,000 people and another have 10,000, you need them to have nearly the exact same population. While gerrymandering is obviously still possible even with this requirement, it's nevertheless harder to pull off.

So someone could make some kind of geometrical requirement. For gerrymandering to work, you have to have a lot of "line turns" rather than straight lines, so you could simply require that maps have the fewest "line turns" known to be possible (so for example, if it can be demonstrated how to make a bunch of square-shaped districts, you can't use hexagon-shaped districts due to there being more line turns). Anyone can submit a map and whichever one has the fewest line turns becomes the map (if there are ties, the legislature can choose one, but obviously the ability to gerrymander is substantially reduced as a result of this).

Another geometrical requirement I saw someone suggest (here) to end gerrymandering would be "the average straight-line distance between each person’s residence and the geographic center of that person’s district shall be the minimum known to be possible at the time" which would also seem to solve the issue.

Regardless of what one chooses, if there is an objective geometrical requirement like this (in addition to the already existing requirement of the districts being of nearly equal population within a state), then the ability to engage in gerrymandering is dramatically curtailed. The less ability legislatures have to control the district borders, the harder gerrymandering is.

Two other options are to make representative elections into at-large elections; people vote for a particular "slate" of representatives, and the slate with the most votes wins. This is effectively what almost every state does in the Presidential election (yes, you select a Presidential candidate on your ballot, but what you're actually voting for is a slate of electors who go off to vote for the candidate you chose). This is actually how it was done n some states long ago, I think. The other more modern idea, which various countries do, is to do it via proportional representation, where each person votes for a party and the seats of a state are distributed among the parties accordingly (if one party gets 40% of the vote, they get 40% of their state's seats). Since both of these abolish congressional districts, gerrymandering is obviously impossible. The downside of these options, aside from being a bigger change to the system than simply adding geometric requirements, is that it means the representatives are no longer tied to their districts and no longer have a specific group of constituents, but gerrymandering minimizes their connection to their district anyway (one could do a mixture of districts and proportional representation, which is generally what countries with proportional representation do).

My pastor tells a story of a baseball coach he had when he was younger that would tell his players to lean into the ball. The players would protest, "But that's against the rules". His response? "Lean into the ball, but don't make it obvious". That's my fear with any ostensibly "objective" methodology that purports to eliminate gerrymandering. I have this sneaking suspicion that someone's learning into the ball without making it look obvious.
How does one lean into the ball to solve the geometrical requirements to stop gerrymandering? Even if they could still manage some limited gerrymandering in spite of that, it would at least dramatically curtail things.
 
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MarkSB

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A more accurate analogy would be someone saying they don't support running over cats and then INTENTIONALLY going out and running over a cat. Just like someone saying they don't support gerrymandering and then voting FOR gerrymandering.

This idea that people had no other choice is, as you said, false.

It's not likely that we'll agree on this because we apparently have different standards for integrity that are incompatible. So it's probably not beneficial to continue repeating ourselves.

The notion that Democrats shouldn't have followed suit to "preserve their integrity" is ridiculous. They asked for a law against gerrymandering... MAGA said no thanks, and proceeded to gerrymander to the max.

A more accurate analogy: There is a boxing match, and one boxer wanted a rule against kicking to protect everyone involved. One of the boxers said no thanks, started kicking their opponent, then caught a roundhouse to the face and started crying about it.

It does remain to be seen whether it will stand in court...
 
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The Barbarian

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I think that's a leading question that falsely presupposes that Democrats are opposed to gerrymandering.
Well, that's a testable claim. Let's take a look...

Democrats Push to Require Fair Maps

The legislation would ban mid-decade redistricting (unless it was ordered by a court) and require states to create 15-person, non-partisan commissions to draw congressional maps.

The proposal was included in the larger voting reform and ethics package that Democrats managed to pass in the House in 2021 but couldn’t get past GOP filibusters in the Senate. Separating these provisions from the rest, Lofgren said, would hopefully inspire some Republicans to join the effort.


To be fair, there were republicans who also favored honest districting. But not enough of them. For the obvious reasons. Would democrats favor Gerrymandering, if they stood to lose representation in a fair system? Maybe so. But for now, the democrats are looking for honest republicans to join them in shutting it down.
 
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camille70

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Fantine

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Your position is, "We have to gerrymander to stop gerrymandering!" OK. If you say so. That sounds pretty... naive to me.
You have been here in the U.S.A. during the last 15 months. We are all aware that if we don't put out impenetrable guardrails in Congress in November that we won't have a democracy to vote in. The architects of Project 2025--whom I believed 100% before the 2024 election--are proceeding full steam ahead with their machiavellian plans. You will see that many of them have infiltrated his staff, where they no doubt let him believe this is all his own idea.

There are 307 of them. List of contributors to Project 2025 - Wikipedia.

The only bright spot in the landscape is that people are beginning to recognize the imminent peril they are facing, more with each passing day.

I'm in my 70's, but I care about the future for my own children and grandchildren and future generations.
 
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JSRG

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You have been here in the U.S.A. during the last 15 months. We are all aware that if we don't put out impenetrable guardrails in Congress in November that we won't have a democracy to vote in.

I have been in the United States during the last 15 months. What I'm "aware" of is that despite there being a lot of problems with Trump, this kind of rhetoric is still paranoid fearmongering. But, I suppose it does rile up the base, so politically speaking it makes sense to fearmonger.

The architects of Project 2025--whom I believed 100% before the 2024 election--are proceeding full steam ahead with their machiavellian plans. You will see that many of them have infiltrated his staff, where they no doubt let him believe this is all his own idea.

There are 307 of them. List of contributors to Project 2025 - Wikipedia.

The plans of Project 2025 that I have seen are, when one pares back all of the false accusations about it, generally not particularly extreme (and hardly "machiavellian"). There's stuff in it I think is a bad idea, and I can certainly see why liberals would absolutely hate its ideas... but it doesn't make it "machiavellian". Actually, liberals would probably be much happier with Project 2025 than what Trump has been doing.

But in regards to the current topic, a search for "gerrymander" in Project 2025 turns up zero matches. Can you point me to where in the document it advocates an enhancement of gerrymandering?
 
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Bradskii

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Oh, I agree that it's "weird" to most people who are cool with hypocrisy when it suits them.

To answer your silly question, I generally subscribe to the teachings of Christ, You know, turn the other cheek, give them your cloak as well... These aren't just empty platitudes for me. They're how I live my life.
But it's not just you that's losing out. People are effectively being disenfranchised. This could have serious repercussions for millions.

I guess if a couple of mates are getting beat up in a bar you'd be there encouraging them to turn the other cheek. 'And give him your jacket as well, Dave. That'll show him!'
 
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durangodawood

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....Have you never stood by your convictions even when it personally disadvantaged you? I have. Is it easy? Nope. But integrity means something to me, and it's not something I surrender just because someone else isn't playing fair. I don't expect many people to understand this position.
Of course I have.

But in this case either choice will conflict with genuine values. So the path of integrity is to figure out which value is higher, regardless of personal advantage, and choose it.

In this case gerrymandering is bad, but less bad in principle than a non level playing field for a national political contest.

Meanwhile, we should all consider voting for congress people who will pledge to outlaw the practice. Have your choices for congress done that?
 
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The Barbarian

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Meanwhile, we should all consider voting for congress people who will pledge to outlaw the practice. Have your choices for congress done that?
Today's winner.
 
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probinson

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The notion that Democrats shouldn't have followed suit to "preserve their integrity" is ridiculous.

I didn't say Democrats shouldn't have voted for gerrymandering to preserver their integrity. I simply said that anyone who says they don't support gerrymandering but then votes for gerrymandering is acting hypocritically.

I have far more respect for someone who simply admits that they support gerrymandering when it is to their benefit than people who try to reconcile why it is they voted for something they say they don't support.
 
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DaisyDay

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A Virginia circuit court judge on Wednesday struck down the state's voter-approved redistricting amendment in its entirety, ruling that the measure was unconstitutional from its inception and that every vote cast in Tuesday's special election — for or against — is legally void.

The ‌Supreme Court of Virginia allowed the referendum to proceed but may end up invalidating it, making the results moot.

And in a separate case that also looks likely to end back up at the Supreme Court, a Virginia county judge, in response to ‌a lawsuit filed by the Republican National Committee, blocked the new map on Wednesday, ruling lawmakers had not followed the rules for the constitutional amendment that the map redrawing required.

Virginia Attorney General Jay Jones, a Democrat, said he would ask the state's Court of Appeals to overturn Circuit Court Judge Jack Hurley Jr.'s order, which called the ballot language "flagrantly misleading" and blocked the state from certifying Tuesday's referendum results.
The fat lady has yet to sing.
 
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The Barbarian

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I didn't say Democrats shouldn't have voted for gerrymandering to preserver their integrity. I simply said that anyone who says they don't support gerrymandering but then votes for gerrymandering is acting hypocritically.
So one who says he's against violence, but resists a violent attack on himself is a hypocrite?
 
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The Barbarian

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The hypocrites are the congressmen who are howling in indignation about the voters in California and Virginia doing, but were fine with what the legislatures of Texas and Missouri did without voter approval. The ones who claim to be upset about Gerrymandering, but voted against the democrats, who put up a bill to ban Gerrymandering.

Those guys. Typical bullies; they like to beat up on democrat voters, when the voters fight back, they run crying to Mommy.
 
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Say it aint so

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I think that's a leading question that falsely presupposes that Democrats are opposed to gerrymandering. But Democrats have been just as guilty of using gerrymandering to their advantage as have Republicans.

If the question were simply, do I think gerrymandering should be made illegal, the answer is yes.
There is a bill to legislate gerrymandering illegal. It was drafted by the Dems and shut down by the Reps; every time.
It's almost as if one has to use gerrymandering to increase their power so they can use it to make gerrymandering illegal.
That is of course if it doesn't get shot down by the conservative SCOTUS which it has been, and is about to take another hit.
 
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probinson

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So one who says he's against violence, but resists a violent attack on himself is a hypocrite?

Is it not odd to you that you're equating voting for gerrymandering to a "violent attack"? I mean, I guess these emotional appeals are semi-effective, but most objective people can see that there is simply no comparison between a "violent attack" and how one votes.
 
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