Was Moses a Flat Earther?

didactics · Apr 19, 2026

Screenshot 2026-04-19 at 10.14.33 AM.png

From my understanding there are many models similar to this one here that essentially have a flat earth. I'm talking about all of the ancient cultures that is. As far as I'm aware the earliest Ancient Greek philosophers reasoned the earth was round is roughly 500 BC. That would mean Moses from 1500 BC likely had no other conceivable idea of the earth being anything but flat, right? Early Egyptian and Mesopotamian records as far back as 2000 BC described a flat world. This presents a problem in my mind because I thought I was so sure that day 2 of creation is talking about the atmosphere, not the celestial waters above. Did Moses really believe that God opened the windows of heaven to flood the world with celestial waters during Noah's time? Maybe it doesn't really matter because we know the global flood was supernatural regardless. In the same way, what Moses really wants to teach is that his God needed no help from all these other gods associated with the pagan nations to create all of life.

As a side note, I wonder if maybe the ancients before the flood knew the earth was round. Maybe they were smarter because once all of civilization reset, they lost some of the advancements of that time (I think about the megalithic structures, like Göbekli Tepe for example)

However, that presents another problem. Does that excuse Christians for being flat earthers? How do you reason with them when they tell you the references in the Bible presume a flat earth? Are we wrong to correct them by telling them it is merely poetic in terms? In some ways it does sound poetic, but I don't know if the authors intended it that way or not. Maybe God inspired it that way whether the authors knew it or not. I have come to conclude that it's not worth arguing with flat earthers on this point as it seems like a mystery to me. What I do feel convinced of is criticizing them on another point, constructively of course. If at all they seem to get too caught up on the conspiracy side of things, then that's where I would like to challenge them. If you think about it, the ancient civilizations of 2000 BC likely had many people believing the earth was flat. If that is so, the people of that day likely did not think the ones in power were more or less godly for also believing the earth was flat. Yet how many flat earthers today assume the government is so corrupt and evil for teaching the earth is round? Sometimes I hear them say things like, I just want you to know how evil the government is. It makes me want to ask them, do you think the government is capable of doing any good? Do they know that God originally created the government (see Genesis 9:6). The reason I would ask these things is because it comes across like they are superstitious or in a similar way, suspicious. Both of these concepts are related as they stem from fear or lack of evidence.

That leads me to my last point, as I'm not so easily persuaded by another view. I'm talking about evolution. I can agree with much of what modern science has to say, but one thing I can't agree on is that we evolved from ape-like creatures or that humanity shares a lineage that evolved separately over millions of years. Otherwise, I do not see why humanity would share blood relation to hominids if God supernaturally created Adam and Eve. That would need to be explained to me. If God created Adam and Eve supernaturally, why would he taint that bloodline with pre-Adamic hominids? Really though, my main contention is the particular view that the historical, literal Adam and Eve did not exist. Proponents such as C.S. Lewis believed they were "symbolic" or "true myth" that conveyed spiritual truths, such as humanity's fall from a paradisal state. I would go so far to say this is heresy.

David Lamb · Apr 20, 2026

didactics said:
View attachment 378674

From my understanding there are many models similar to this one here that essentially have a flat earth. I'm talking about all of the ancient cultures that is. As far as I'm aware the earliest Ancient Greek philosophers reasoned the earth was round is roughly 500 BC. That would mean Moses from 1500 BC likely had no other conceivable idea of the earth being anything but flat, right? Early Egyptian and Mesopotamian records as far back as 2000 BC described a flat world. This presents a problem in my mind because I thought I was so sure that day 2 of creation is talking about the atmosphere, not the celestial waters above. Did Moses really believe that God opened the windows of heaven to flood the world with celestial waters during Noah's time? Maybe it doesn't really matter because we know the global flood was supernatural regardless. In the same way, what Moses really wants to teach is that his God needed no help from all these other gods associated with the pagan nations to create all of life.

As a side note, I wonder if maybe the ancients before the flood knew the earth was round. Maybe they were smarter because once all of civilization reset, they lost some of the advancements of that time (I think about the megalithic structures, like Göbekli Tepe for example)

However, that presents another problem. Does that excuse Christians for being flat earthers? How do you reason with them when they tell you the references in the Bible presume a flat earth? Are we wrong to correct them by telling them it is merely poetic in terms? In some ways it does sound poetic, but I don't know if the authors intended it that way or not. Maybe God inspired it that way whether the authors knew it or not. I have come to conclude that it's not worth arguing with flat earthers on this point as it seems like a mystery to me. What I do feel convinced of is criticizing them on another point, constructively of course. If at all they seem to get too caught up on the conspiracy side of things, then that's where I would like to challenge them. If you think about it, the ancient civilizations of 2000 BC likely had many people believing the earth was flat. If that is so, the people of that day likely did not think the ones in power were more or less godly for also believing the earth was flat. Yet how many flat earthers today assume the government is so corrupt and evil for teaching the earth is round? Sometimes I hear them say things like, I just want you to know how evil the government is. It makes me want to ask them, do you think the government is capable of doing any good? Do they know that God originally created the government (see Genesis 9:6). The reason I would ask these things is because it comes across like they are superstitious or in a similar way, suspicious. Both of these concepts are related as they stem from fear or lack of evidence.

That leads me to my last point, as I'm not so easily persuaded by another view. I'm talking about evolution. I can agree with much of what modern science has to say, but one thing I can't agree on is that we evolved from ape-like creatures or that humanity shares a lineage that evolved separately over millions of years. Otherwise, I do not see why humanity would share blood relation to hominids if God supernaturally created Adam and Eve. That would need to be explained to me. If God created Adam and Eve supernaturally, why would he taint that bloodline with pre-Adamic hominids? Really though, my main contention is the particular view that the historical, literal Adam and Eve did not exist. Proponents such as C.S. Lewis believed they were "symbolic" or "true myth" that conveyed spiritual truths, such as humanity's fall from a paradisal state. I would go so far to say this is heresy.

I would say that what Moses understood about the earth's shape is not the point. The human penmen of God's inspired word often wrote things that they could not have understood fully - think, for example, of the OT prophecies about the Lord Jesus Christ.

As for how I reason with people who say that the bible teaches a flat earth, I ask them to show me where in the bible this is stated. They will often come up with a verse like Isaiah 40:22:

(Isa 40:22 - NKJV) It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

But of course "circle of the earth" doesn't mean that the earth is a flat disc, just as "tail of the dog" doesn't mean that the dog is a tail. Even an ardent flat earther like Apple Sky has had to agree that there is no verse in the bible that actually teaches the shape of the earth.

Job 33:6 · Apr 26, 2026

didactics said:
View attachment 378674

From my understanding there are many models similar to this one here that essentially have a flat earth. I'm talking about all of the ancient cultures that is. As far as I'm aware the earliest Ancient Greek philosophers reasoned the earth was round is roughly 500 BC. That would mean Moses from 1500 BC likely had no other conceivable idea of the earth being anything but flat, right? Early Egyptian and Mesopotamian records as far back as 2000 BC described a flat world. This presents a problem in my mind because I thought I was so sure that day 2 of creation is talking about the atmosphere, not the celestial waters above. Did Moses really believe that God opened the windows of heaven to flood the world with celestial waters during Noah's time? Maybe it doesn't really matter because we know the global flood was supernatural regardless. In the same way, what Moses really wants to teach is that his God needed no help from all these other gods associated with the pagan nations to create all of life.

As a side note, I wonder if maybe the ancients before the flood knew the earth was round. Maybe they were smarter because once all of civilization reset, they lost some of the advancements of that time (I think about the megalithic structures, like Göbekli Tepe for example)

However, that presents another problem. Does that excuse Christians for being flat earthers? How do you reason with them when they tell you the references in the Bible presume a flat earth? Are we wrong to correct them by telling them it is merely poetic in terms? In some ways it does sound poetic, but I don't know if the authors intended it that way or not. Maybe God inspired it that way whether the authors knew it or not. I have come to conclude that it's not worth arguing with flat earthers on this point as it seems like a mystery to me. What I do feel convinced of is criticizing them on another point, constructively of course. If at all they seem to get too caught up on the conspiracy side of things, then that's where I would like to challenge them. If you think about it, the ancient civilizations of 2000 BC likely had many people believing the earth was flat. If that is so, the people of that day likely did not think the ones in power were more or less godly for also believing the earth was flat. Yet how many flat earthers today assume the government is so corrupt and evil for teaching the earth is round? Sometimes I hear them say things like, I just want you to know how evil the government is. It makes me want to ask them, do you think the government is capable of doing any good? Do they know that God originally created the government (see Genesis 9:6). The reason I would ask these things is because it comes across like they are superstitious or in a similar way, suspicious. Both of these concepts are related as they stem from fear or lack of evidence.

That leads me to my last point, as I'm not so easily persuaded by another view. I'm talking about evolution. I can agree with much of what modern science has to say, but one thing I can't agree on is that we evolved from ape-like creatures or that humanity shares a lineage that evolved separately over millions of years. Otherwise, I do not see why humanity would share blood relation to hominids if God supernaturally created Adam and Eve. That would need to be explained to me. If God created Adam and Eve supernaturally, why would he taint that bloodline with pre-Adamic hominids? Really though, my main contention is the particular view that the historical, literal Adam and Eve did not exist. Proponents such as C.S. Lewis believed they were "symbolic" or "true myth" that conveyed spiritual truths, such as humanity's fall from a paradisal state. I would go so far to say this is heresy.

The old testament, and the Bible more broadly, has no modern science in it and its language always assumes a flat earth.The text predates modern science and reflects a pre scientific worldview (something like ANE cosmology) rather than modern scientific modeling of nature (spherical earth).

And if "flat earth" feels too offensive or comes off too strong, you could soften it by thinking of it as a pre-scientific worldview that describes reality in experiential or phenomenological terms. Like a finite or bounded horizontal expanse of land.

For example:
Daniel 4:11 NIV
The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

Or:
Job 38:13-14 NIV
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.

Clay under cylinder seals is flat. The garment imagery is similar to someone taking a dusty towel, grabbing it by its edges, and shaking the dust off.

The Bible also reflects other aspects of ancient cosmology such as a solid sky:

Job 37:18 NIV
Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

Or even across translations:
Amos 9:6 NASB
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

But this doesn't matter if the church isn't approaching scripture with the anticipation that it ought to communicate modern science. It is a book of theology, it's not a science textbook. It uses the conceptual language and imagery available in its ancient near east historical and cultural context.

The Old Testament contains many passages, dozens, reflecting an ancient cosmology, and few, if any, that clearly describe a spherical Earth in modern scientific terms, though some argue certain texts can be read that way.

Platte · May 3, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
The old testament, and the Bible more broadly, has no modern science in it and its language always assumes a flat earth.The text predates modern science and reflects a pre scientific worldview (something like ANE cosmology) rather than modern scientific modeling of nature (spherical earth).

And if "flat earth" feels too offensive or comes off too strong, you could soften it by thinking of it as a pre-scientific worldview that describes reality in experiential or phenomenological terms. Like a finite or bounded horizontal expanse of land.

For example:
Daniel 4:11 NIV
The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

Or:
Job 38:13-14 NIV
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.

Clay under cylinder seals is flat. The garment imagery is similar to someone taking a dusty towel, grabbing it by its edges, and shaking the dust off.

The Bible also reflects other aspects of ancient cosmology such as a solid sky:

Job 37:18 NIV
Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

Or even across translations:
Amos 9:6 NASB
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

But this doesn't matter if the church isn't approaching scripture with the anticipation that it ought to communicate modern science. It is a book of theology, it's not a science textbook. It uses the conceptual language and imagery available in its ancient near east historical and cultural context.

The Old Testament contains many passages, dozens, reflecting an ancient cosmology, and few, if any, that clearly describe a spherical Earth in modern scientific terms, though some argue certain texts can be read that way.

What are the texts that describe a spherical Earth?

prodromos · May 3, 2026

Platte said:
What are the texts that describe a spherical Earth?

Any verse that refers to the sun rising or the sun setting. Neither are possible on a flat earth.

Job 33:6 · May 3, 2026

Platte said:
What are the texts that describe a spherical Earth?

There are none. If there were, then I'm sure this conversation would look a lot different.

But I also think it's fair to say that we also shouldn't expect the Bible to speak about a spherical earth either. We don't expect the Bible to have verses about artificial intelligence, we don't expect the Bible to have verses about the international space station. We don't expect the Bible to have verses about RNA COVID vaccines.

Why? Because these are modern concepts of a modern contextual background. And the idea of a spherical earth is also a more modern scientific concept as well. We have satellites. We have algebra. Space ships etc. but Genesis was written centuries before even the earliest writings by greeks on the spherical earth.

And thus, when we read the Bible, we don't see modern scientific concepts like that of a spherical earth.

prodromos · May 3, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
There are none. If there were, then I'm sure this conversation would look a lot different

I just mentioned all the verses which speak of the sun rising and the sun setting. If the earth was as is claimed by flat earthers, the sun would never get below 20° above the horizon and would always be visible in the sky. That fact alone discounts any possibility of the earth being flat.

Job 33:6 · May 3, 2026

prodromos said:
I just mentioned all the verses which speak of the sun rising and the sun setting. If the earth was as is claimed by flat earthers, the sun would never get below 20° above the horizon and would always be visible in the sky. That fact alone discounts any possibility of the earth being flat.

I see the Sun rise, and I see the Sun set, but that’s just describing what it looks like from my point of view. That observation alone doesn’t tell you what the Earth’s shape is. In fact, people debated whether the Earth was flat or spherical for centuries despite seeing the same sunrise and sunset we do today.

Platte · May 3, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
There are none. If there were, then I'm sure this conversation would look a lot different.

But I also think it's fair to say that we also shouldn't expect the Bible to speak about a spherical earth either. We don't expect the Bible to have verses about artificial intelligence, we don't expect the Bible to have verses about the international space station. We don't expect the Bible to have verses about RNA COVID vaccines.

Why? Because these are modern concepts of a modern contextual background. And the idea of a spherical earth is also a more modern scientific concept as well. We have satellites. We have algebra. Space ships etc. but Genesis was written centuries before even the earliest writings by greeks on the spherical earth.

And thus, when we read the Bible, we don't see modern scientific concepts like that of a spherical earth.

We do get a nice historical account of creation and perhaps the most significant scientific concept that we are still trying to understand even today in verse 3. I’m good with that.

prodromos · May 3, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
I see the Sun rise, and I see the Sun set, but that’s just describing what it looks like from my point of view. That observation alone doesn’t tell you what the Earth’s shape is.

It is basic trigonometry. Flat earth cannot explain what we observe, yet everything falls into place with the globe. Mathematics does not care what your personal beliefs are. You can't do celestial navigation with the flat earth model. It only works with the globe. Equatorial mounts for telescopes are designed to account for the globe and could not possibly work with a flat earth.

Job 33:6 said:
In fact, people debated whether the Earth was flat or spherical for centuries despite seeing the same sunrise and sunset we do today.

On what basis were they debating, beliefs or mathematics? Do you have any citations or is this just something you claim? The earth has been known to be a globe for millennia and it is only in recent history that some have begun to claim the earth is flat due to their dogmatic misreading of Scripture.

Job 33:6 · May 3, 2026

prodromos said:
It is basic trigonometry.

Do you think that Moses and the ancient isrealites were sitting around doing trigonometry?

prodromos · May 3, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
Do you think that Moses and the ancient isrealites were sitting around doing trigonometry?

Job 33:6 · May 3, 2026

prodromos said:

Ok. So the answer is "no, of course not".

And to that I would then ask, "ok, so why would you expect the ancient isrealite authors and audience to assume or to be aware of things about trigonometry when writing the old testament?"

The ancient Israelite authors and audience weren’t using or assuming trigonometric models when they described the Sun rising and setting.

Trigonometry didn’t exist in that context, it didn't even exist at that time in history, so it can’t really be the starting point for interpreting what those texts mean. They’re describing appearances, not doing mathematical astronomy.

It's ANE context, not science.

prodromos · May 4, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
Ok. So the answer is "no, of course not".

And to that I would then ask, "ok, so why would you expect the ancient isrealite authors and audience to assume or to be aware of things about trigonometry when writing the old testament?"

I wouldn't.

Job 33:6 said:
The ancient Israelite authors and audience weren’t using or assuming trigonometric models when they described the Sun rising and setting.

No, they had an entirely different mindset, one that didn't even raise the question of the shape of the earth. Moses wasn't a flat earther, he was just an earther.

Job 33:6 said:
Trigonometry didn’t exist in that context, it didn't even exist at that time in history, so it can’t really be the starting point for interpreting what those texts mean. They’re describing appearances, not doing mathematical astronomy.

Naturally. They understood the sun rose in the East and set in the West because God had established it so. They didn't think about it in terms of mechanics.

Job 33:6 said:
It's ANE context, not science.

But it is possible to do science with their observations, which only work on the globe.

I note you have ignored the bulk of my earlier post. Do you have any references to back up your claims about centuries of debates?

Job 33:6 · May 4, 2026

prodromos said:
I wouldn't.

Great. So if the ancient Israelites wouldn’t have been thinking in terms of trigonometric or mathematical models when they described the Sun rising and setting, then why would we expect them to be writing about or assuming such frameworks in the Bible?

I’m not disputing what trigonometry is or how it works, and I’m not claiming I wrote the Bible. The point isn’t what modern readers think about Earth’s shape, it’s what the ancient authors and audience were actually expressing in their own conceptual world.

prodromos said:
Naturally. They understood the sun rose in the East and set in the West because God had established it so. They didn't think about it in terms of mechanics.

And that’s really the key issue. You brought up trigonometry and modern scientific frameworks, but that’s not the conceptual world the text is operating in. My point is simply that this is anachronistic, those frameworks aren’t part of the interpretive context of the text.

prodromos said:
But it is possible to do science with their observations, which only work on the globe.

I’m not denying that modern science can model or explain those observations. The question is not what you can later build from the data, but what the text itself is actually doing.

I could just as easily think about NASA and spaceflight every time the Bible mentions stars, but that doesn’t mean the text is intending to imply anything about space travel or modern astronomy.

prodromos said:
I note you have ignored the bulk of my earlier post. Do you have any references to back up your claims about centuries of debates?

There were various cosmological conceptions in antiquity.

For example, Cosmas Indicopleustes is one later writer who presents a non-spherical cosmology. And in some late antique Christian writers, including figures like Diodore of Tarsus or Severian of Gabala, you also find cosmological imagery that describes the heavens in dome-like or “covering” terms atop a non-spherical earth.

There are also broader ancient Near Eastern texts and artifacts that reflect pre-scientific cosmological assumptions, like the Mesopotamian map of the world, which is essentially a flat earth map.

But none of that changes the main point. These are not scientific or mathematical models in the modern sense, and it is still anachronistic to read trigonometry, celestial mechanics, or modern astronomy back into the interpretive framework of Genesis.

Job 33:6 · May 4, 2026

prodromos said:
I wouldn't.

No, they had an entirely different mindset, one that didn't even raise the question of the shape of the earth. Moses wasn't a flat earther, he was just an earther.

Naturally. They understood the sun rose in the East and set in the West because God had established it so. They didn't think about it in terms of mechanics.

But it is possible to do science with their observations, which only work on the globe.

I note you have ignored the bulk of my earlier post. Do you have any references to back up your claims about centuries of debates?

In reference to my post above: the Babylonian map of the world* as opposed to Mesopotamian.

prodromos · May 4, 2026

Job 33:6 said:
But none of that changes the main point. These are not scientific or mathematical models in the modern sense, and it is still anachronistic to read trigonometry, celestial mechanics, or modern astronomy back into the interpretive framework of Genesis.

Regardless of how they understood what they were observing, it doesn't change my point that those Scriptures cannot reflect a flat earth. You said there were no texts in the Scriptures describing a globe earth and I showed you that was wrong.

Job 33:6 · May 4, 2026

prodromos said:
Regardless of how they understood what they were observing, it doesn't change my point that those Scriptures cannot reflect a flat earth. You said there were no texts in the Scriptures describing a globe earth and I showed you that was wrong.

That’s a false choice. The text isn’t describing Earth in terms of flat or spherical geometry at all, so it doesn’t follow that rejecting a flat earth reading automatically means it’s presenting a globe model (or vise versa). It’s not operating in that kind of framework.

The language in some passages is flat in its imagery.

For example, Job 38:13 speaks of the earth being “taken by the edges” as light exposes it:

Job 38:12-13 NIV
that it might take hold of the edge of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

And Daniel 4:10–11 describes a great tree “visible to the ends of the earth.”:

Daniel 4:10-11 NIV
The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

These are examples of ancient Near Eastern-style cosmic language that portrays the world in terms of extent, boundaries, and visibility from a human perspective. But this reflects phenomenological cosmology, not a technical geometric model of the Earth. The texts are describing how the world appears and is phenomenologically framed, not making scientific claims about Earth’s shape.

Additionally, scientific discoveries of the spherical shape of the earth had not yet been made in the time of Moses, so it is a stretch to assume that he or the ancient isrealites held such a view.

The Barbarian · May 9, 2026

Platte said:
What are the texts that describe a spherical Earth?

One might as well ask where are the texts that describe the rings of Saturn, or crust subduction. If you try to make the Bible into a science text, you miss the whole point. It's about God and man, and our relationship. And by Jesus' time, educated Jews were quite aware that the Earth was a globe; apparently they saw no problems with scripture in that regard.

Was Moses a Flat Earther?

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