Musk Minions Lock Out Real Employees at Office of Personnel Management

DennisF · Mar 19, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
If the mission of "DOGE" was really to root out "waste fraud abuse" those are the people who should be hired. Did Musk hire such poeple for "DOGE"? Certainly doesn't look like that. Instead he got a bunch of inexperienced coder types who apparently know even less than Musk about these things.

Sounds like you know more than they do to say such things. Maybe you should apply to Musk for the job; he needs you, Hans!

Hans Blaster · Mar 19, 2025

DennisF said:
Sounds like you know more than they do to say such things. Maybe you should apply to Musk for the job; he needs you, Hans!

I thought about it, but when the "job search" was first floating about it said "no pay". I doubt I would have passed the ideological screen as I think cryptocurrency is scam and there will never be cities on Mars.

Pommer · Mar 19, 2025

Musk spent $44B to buy Twitter (X).
That’s pretty much all we need to know about his judgement.

DennisF · Mar 19, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
I thought about it, but when the "job search" was first floating about it said "no pay". I doubt I would have passed the ideological screen as I think cryptocurrency is scam and there will never be cities on Mars.

Cryptocurrency is even more nebulous as a symbol of wealth than is fiat paper currency. At least the paper is tangible, but computer bits? Gold and silver coins are, in contrast, wealth in themselves.

DennisF · Mar 19, 2025

Pommer said:
Musk spent $44B to buy Twitter (X).
That’s pretty much all we need to know about his judgement.

As Senator Everett Dirkson said: "A billion here, a billion there - pretty soon we're talking about real money!"

Hans Blaster · Mar 19, 2025

DennisF said:
Cryptocurrency is even more nebulous as a symbol of wealth than is fiat paper currency. At least the paper is tangible, but computer bits? Gold and silver coins are, in contrast, wealth in themselves.

Oh great, "precious metals".

Semi-useful metals with inflated values because some people think they have "intrinsic value". Sigh.

DennisF · Mar 19, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Oh great, "precious metals". Semi-useful metals with inflated values because some people think they have "intrinsic value". Sigh.

They are actual wealth, in contrast to claims to wealth or symbols of wealth. Consequently, they do have value. You must not be in the electronics industry, and must be an American or Brit, influenced by Keynes' "barbarous metal" hoax. Anyone else sees them as valuable.

You're also making the basic but oft-repeated mistake of measuring the value of wealth by the market level of acceptance of claims to wealth - fiat money. When gold rises against the dollar, it isn't that the gold is becoming more valuable; the paper money is instead losing its value in the marketplace.

Hans Blaster · Mar 19, 2025

DennisF said:
They are actual wealth, in contrast to claims to wealth or symbols of wealth. Consequently, they do have value.

Wealth/value is human invention. Nothing has intrinsic value. Inflating the notion of gold as money is just as artificial as any so-called "fiat currency".

DennisF said:
You must not be in the electronics industry, and must be an American or Brit, influenced by Keynes' "barbarous metal" hoax. Anyone else sees them as valuable.

I've never studied Keynes. We don't have much need to study economic theory in physics. (And I did say semi-useful. The only gold I've ever had was on connector pins. It's pretty if you're into that sort of thing, but the price of gold is not reflected by its usage, only by its fanatical following as "money".)

DennisF said:
You're also making the basic but oft-repeated mistake of measuring the value of wealth by the market level of acceptance of claims to wealth - fiat money. When gold rises against the dollar, it isn't that the gold is becoming more valuable; the paper money is instead losing its value in the marketplace.

I am aware of the basic dynamics of markets and ideas of goldbugs.

DennisF · Mar 20, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Wealth/value is human invention. Nothing has intrinsic value. Inflating the notion of gold as money is just as artificial as any so-called "fiat currency".

That's a rather nihilistic view of a major aspect of human life. The whole of economics is the study of wealth. Without it, humanity is reduced to drinking instant coffee (or something like that). People world-wide spend much of their time seeking wealth for obvious reasons.

Hans Blaster said:
I've never studied Keynes.

You have good judgement; physics is far superior.

Hans Blaster said:
We don't have much need to study economic theory in physics.

No, that is left for the engineers to consider.

Hans Blaster said:
(And I did say semi-useful. The only gold I've ever had was on connector pins.

Electronics engineers know of more uses for it in components, such as bond wires in ICs and plating on relay contacts. At Tektronix in the 1970s (with gold at $35/oz) we had gold-plated circuit boards; I still have some. Silver is also common in electronics because it is such a good conductor. The Fermi conduction band is very popular among silver atoms.

Hans Blaster said:
It's pretty if you're into that sort of thing, but the price of gold is not reflected by its usage, only by its fanatical following as "money".)

I am aware of the basic dynamics of markets and ideas of goldbugs.

Gold and silver - all the platinum-group metals - meet the requirements of money ... better than clam shells ... way better than computer bits on a HDD.

Hans Blaster · Mar 20, 2025

DennisF said:
That's a rather nihilistic view of a major aspect of human life.

It isn't. (and There is no gold in my life.) I just refuse to play the "gold is majik" economic game. It is a shiny metal with some uses. It's "value" is dependent on the demand for it for those uses. Any extraneous usage (as "money") particularly for "ideological" reasons is distortion of the "true" market value of the substance.

DennisF said:
The whole of economics is the study of wealth. Without it, humanity is reduced to drinking instant coffee (or something like that).

A vile brown liquid in all of its configurations.

DennisF said:
People world-wide spend much of their time seeking wealth for obvious reasons.

You have good judgement; physics is far superior.

To economics...

DennisF said:
No, that is left for the engineers to consider.

and that.

DennisF said:
Electronics engineers know of more uses for it in components, such as bond wires in ICs and plating on relay contacts. At Tektronix in the 1970s (with gold at $35/oz) we had gold-plated circuit boards; I still have some. Silver is also common in electronics because it is such a good conductor. The Fermi conduction band is very popular among silver atoms.

Lilke I said. It has uses. We could use more if the goldbugs weren't hording it and driving up the price.

DennisF said:
Gold and silver - all the platinum-group metals - meet the requirements of money ... better than clam shells ... way better than computer bits on a HDD.

For *currency*, yes the durability and compactness was useful, but we invented better forms of currency, and most of your money is some sort of electronic storage.

DennisF · Mar 20, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
It isn't. (and There is no gold in my life.) I just refuse to play the "gold is majik" economic game. It is a shiny metal with some uses. It's "value" is dependent on the demand for it for those uses. Any extraneous usage (as "money") particularly for "ideological" reasons is distortion of the "true" market value of the substance.

Yes, gold can be elevated beyond the reality of what it is. I doubt, however, that you would want to go back to the days of no money - of barter - though that might be possible with the Internet. Do you understand the fiat money system and how it is the greatest hoax in recorded human history, as measured in the amount of wealth involved? It lets the player in the game of Monopoly who runs the bank dip into it for his own benefit. If he takes too much advantage of this, he ruins the game, but over time, he can buy up the whole board. We are not far from that now in the West, as wealth has been consolidated into the hands of a few.

Hans Blaster said:
A vile brown liquid in all of its configurations.

To economics...

and that.

Lilke I said. It has uses. We could use more if the goldbugs weren't hording it and driving up the price.

The main "goldbugs" doing the hoarding are the major states of the world. I wonder what they must know about gold ...

Hans Blaster said:
For *currency*, yes the durability and compactness was useful, but we invented better forms of currency, and most of your money is some sort of electronic storage.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that "electronic storage" is the better form of currency? If so, isn't cryptocurrency in that same category? Bits on a hard-drive?

Hans Blaster · Mar 20, 2025

DennisF said:
Yes, gold can be elevated beyond the reality of what it is. I doubt, however, that you would want to go back to the days of no money - of barter - though that might be possible with the Internet.

Dollars (or Euros, etc.) and electronic payments and paper currency are fine. No need for silly "precious metals".

DennisF said:
Do you understand the fiat money system and how it is the greatest hoax in recorded human history, as measured in the amount of wealth involved? It lets the player in the game of Monopoly who runs the bank dip into it for his own benefit. If he takes too much advantage of this, he ruins the game, but over time, he can buy up the whole board. We are not far from that now in the West, as wealth has been consolidated into the hands of a few.

O mercy, you *are* one of those people. (I though you might be, but I prefer to let the other party tip their own hand.)

DennisF said:
The main "goldbugs" doing the hoarding are the major states of the world. I wonder what they must know about gold ...

The cult of gold has not yet died out. Gold is just a commodity with a variable price. Central banks can buy or sell it as they see fit to increase their holdings in actual money.

DennisF said:
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying that "electronic storage" is the better form of currency? If so, isn't cryptocurrency in that same category? Bits on a hard-drive?

Cryptocurrencies (sic) are just things made up by some rando tech bro types. Standard fiat currencies are debt paper issued by governments. That most dollar transactions are made electronically doesn't make them the same as "crypto". (Most gold trading doesn't involve the physical movement of gold atoms either.)

Belk · Mar 20, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
A vile brown liquid in all of its configurations.

DennisF · Mar 20, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Dollars (or Euros, etc.) and electronic payments and paper currency are fine. No need for silly "precious metals".

You're telling me that you do not understand the fiat money system.

Hans Blaster said:
O mercy, you *are* one of those people. (I though you might be, but I prefer to let the other party tip their own hand.)

The cult of gold has not yet died out. Gold is just a commodity with a variable price. Central banks can buy or sell it as they see fit to increase their holdings in actual money.

The cult is that of fiat money - of giving central banks the authority to create money out of thin air.

Hans Blaster said:
Cryptocurrencies (sic) are just things made up by some rando tech bro types. Standard fiat currencies are debt paper issued by governments.

Issued by the Fed, which is a private central bank. Since the 1960s, paper bills in the USA are not even debt notes because they do not meet the legal requirements of a note.

Hans Blaster said:
That most dollar transactions are made electronically doesn't make them the same as "crypto". (Most gold trading doesn't involve the physical movement of gold atoms either.)

To educate yourself on money, I recommend reading a copy of G. Edward Griffin's book, The Creature from Jekyll Island. If it is not enough, then read the standard reference, written by an acquaintance of mine who is widely considered the leading expert on the legal and historical aspects of U.S. money, Edwin J. Vieira, Jr., who spent his career arguing (and winning) cases before the U.S. Supreme Court. His work is Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the U.S. Constitution. If that's asking too much, here is some of what he has to say: Edwin Vieira Jr.: Silver and gold guarantee freedom | Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee | Exposing the long-term manipulation of the gold market

Hans Blaster · Mar 20, 2025

Good grief. This thread is dead and off track because I corrected an apparent anti-"fiat money" for incorrectly labeling "Q clearance" as military intelligence. The only things I want to discuss about gold is how it is made and its structure and this is the wrong board for that. And some should feed the cat. Fin.

Oompa Loompa · Mar 20, 2025

DaisyDay said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/musk-aides-lock-government-workers-out-computer-systems-us-agency-sources-say-2025-01-31/

Musk, the billionaire Tesla (TSLA.O) , opens new tab CEO and X owner tasked by Trump to slash the size of the 2.2 million-strong civilian government workforce, has moved swiftly to install allies at the agency known as the Office of Personnel Management.

The two officials, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation, said some senior career employees at OPM have had their access revoked to some of the department's data systems.
The systems include a vast database called Enterprise Human Resources Integration, which contains dates of birth, Social Security numbers, appraisals, home addresses, pay grades and length of service of government workers, the officials said.
"We have no visibility into what they are doing with the computer and data systems," one of the officials said. "That is creating great concern. There is no oversight. It creates real cybersecurity and hacking implications."

Musk, so far, has not been vetted for security clearance nor have his aides but they have interfered with actual employees who have the clearance by locking them out of the databases they need to use to do their jobs.

How is this legal?

I bet they are concerned that they didn't have a chance to wipe the systems before DOGE swooped in.

DennisF · Mar 20, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Good grief. This thread is dead and off track because I corrected an apparent anti-"fiat money" for incorrectly labeling "Q clearance" as military intelligence. The only things I want to discuss about gold is how it is made and its structure and this is the wrong board for that. And some should feed the cat. Fin.

Hans, read more carefully. I did not say that Q was a military clearance, you did. I said that some mil-intel people with a Q clearance (or higher) were involved. That's not the same as what you reinterpreted it to be.

The discussion about "gold" is actually a discussion about money. Vieira's piece, which I linked, shows how much more is involved in the issue than what you suppose.

DennisF · Mar 30, 2026

A2SG said:
Whatever the motivation behind prosecutors pursuing the case, one essential requirement remains: does the evidence support the verdict? In this case, it did convince the jury to unanimously decide that Trump was guilty. During the trial, Trump's legal team had every opportunity to attempt to refute that evidence, but for all their efforts, the jury wasn't convinced.

That's what it all boils down to.

And Trump's legal team had every opportunity to argue that at trial. I believe they did, in fact, but the jury wasn't convinced.

The NY Supreme Court ruled on that, and they decided that Judge Merchan's recusal wasn't warranted.

You, or Turley, are free to disagree, of course....but the NY Supreme Court has the final say on the matter.

My understanding, and I fully admit I'm not a lawyer so I can only go by court decisions on the matter, is that the only part the jury didn't have to be unanimous about was the reason why the predicate crime was committed, specifically the attempt to conceal another crime. Since Trump wasn't charged with the predicate crimes, the jury wasn't required to be unanimous about them, only the crimes Trump was charged with. Those crimes, they did unanimously agree he was guilty of.

Yup, any yahoo on the internet can opine about lawfare all they want to. Ultimately, only the decision of the court, and the appeals court, will matter. The court has accepted the jury's verdict, but whether or not the appeals court finds any issues of legal or procedural errors remains to be seen.

I'm not comparing Trump's crimes to any other administration's actions. If Trump is guilty of committing 34 felonies, that stands by itself, and nothing any previous administration has done has any bearing on that fact.

It's in the hands of the appeals court now. We'll have to see what happens.

-- A2SG, though, considering the sentence Trump received, it's gonna be hard to prove he was treated unfairly by the court or this judge....

A2, as time has revealed more of history, I am inclined to believe that your argument about the fairness of the trial proceedings themselves is correct. I can't see anything in your rebuttals of my statements that I can overturn with any substantive evidence.

That said, the larger issue of jurisprudence involving lawfare - the selection of cases to bring to use the imposition of trials and their costs in money and time and effort as an attack in itself - remains a basic issue, not only with Trump's legal entanglements but with almost anything else of the myriad incidents of legally actionable political activity nowadays.

A2SG · Mar 30, 2026

DennisF said:
A2, as time has revealed more of history, I am inclined to believe that your argument about the fairness of the trial proceedings themselves is correct. I can't see anything in your rebuttals of my statements that I can overturn with any substantive evidence.

Thanks. I've heard many people, specifically Trump supporters, claim the trial was unfair or biased in some way, but so far, exactly zero evidence has been presented to demonstrate this. Unless that happens, I remain unconvinced.

DennisF said:
That said, the larger issue of jurisprudence involving lawfare - the selection of cases to bring to use the imposition of trials and their costs in money and time and effort as an attack in itself - remains a basic issue, not only with Trump's legal entanglements but with almost anything else of the myriad incidents of legally actionable political activity nowadays.

Like, for example, the DOJ's attempts to repeatedly target Letitia James or James Comey? I'd say the fact that the DOJ can't get a grand jury to indict on either count (except once, and that was thrown out) speaks for itself.

But, as with all claims of lawfare or the like, I apply Hitchen's Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

-- A2SG, far too often, "lawfare" only means "I don't like the verdict".....

DennisF · Mar 31, 2026

DennisF said:
A2, as time has revealed more of history, I am inclined to believe that your argument about the fairness of the trial proceedings themselves is correct. I can't see anything in your rebuttals of my statements that I can overturn with any substantive evidence.

That said, the larger issue of jurisprudence involving lawfare - the selection of cases to bring to use the imposition of trials and their costs in money and time and effort as an attack in itself - remains a basic issue, not only with Trump's legal entanglements but with almost anything else of the myriad incidents of legally actionable political activity nowadays.

Evidence of an example of lawfare:

Andrew Bustamante and his wife are ex-CIA with direct experience.
So is another ex-CIA operative, John Kiriakou:

The CIA used it on him. Direct eyewitness testimony.

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