Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

Leaf473 · 2026-02-26T10:23:28-0600

The Liturgist said:
I pray for everyone - including you. You should know I love you very much, @Studyman

Amen

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T12:22:34-0600

The Liturgist said:
On this point, I would note to you and to @BNR32FAN and @tall73 that regarding God resting - we really should interpret that as a prophecy of Christ reposing in the tomb on Holy Saturday, and also as God not making any changes in the world for one day after the initial creation of man - in the case of God in His divine nature, He is, it should be noted ,eternal and immutable, meaning He does not change, and does not experience time, for He created time, time is a property of this world and this life, which God exists outside of (and which hopefully we will as well in the life of the World to Come, in eternal life, since experiencing linear time for all eternity I believe would be torture, indeed on discussing the prospects of it with my bishop he remarked that my fear of linear time unending sounded very much like a description of Hell. Rather inheriting eternal life through theosis means escaping from the constraints imposed by the created attribute of this world known as time.

God Himself is clearly described in the Bible as unchanging, impassable and immutable, except in His incarnation as Christ Jesus, so language about Him for example changing his mind and so on should be interpreted in a non-anthropomorphological concept, for Scripture also makes it clear that God is, in his unoriginate divine essence, inscrutable and beyond comprehension. In Orthodoxy we specifically believe that God can be known only through His energies, such as uncreated grace, and in His incarnation as Jesus Christ, in which our humanity was united with His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division (the important principle of communicatio idiomatum, historically stressed among Protestants by the Lutherans and among ancient Christians most heavily emphasized by the likes of pre-Chalcedonian theologians such as St. Athanasius and St. Cyril of Alexandria, and the Cappadocians and St. John Chrysostom, Oriental Orthodox theologians such as St. Severus of Antioch and St. Philoxenus of Mabbug and the Syriac Orthodox hymnographer and “flute of the spirit”* St. Jacob of Sarugh, and Eastern Orthodox theologians such as St. John of Damascus).

* This is a reference to St. Ephraim the Syrian as Harp of the Spirit. The Nestorians of the time proposed Mar Narsai as ”flute of the Spirit”, but Mar Narsai is deeply uncomfortable for an Orthodox Christian, although some of his hymns remain in use in the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, some of his hymns were extremely ugly examples of Nestorianism at his worse, for example, he composed a him in which, contrary to the principle of communicatio idiomatum idiomatum, he specifically attributed individual acts of Christ to his divinity or to his humanity, in a dichotomistic way which contradicted the idea of the Incarnation and of Christ as Emanuel - God with Us.

By the way my fellow Orthodox friend @prodromos and my Lutheran friend @ViaCrucis have written eloquently about communicatio idiomatum. I feel it is an important principle which is also extremely relevant to this thread.

In addition, I believe we must not overlook the prophetic element of 1 Genesis - while I do not deny it refers to the creation of the universe, I believe it very clearly refers to the passion and resurrection of Christ and the light of the World to Come. Consider that the process of the creation of man began on the sixth day, not with “Let there be” as in a single action completed immediately, but rather uniquely, “Let us create man in our image”, implying a process, one which, the same day of the week many years later Christ remade us in His image on the Cross, before proclaiming “it is finished” - after Pontius Pilate upon seeing Christ having been suffered declared “Ecce homo” - behold the Man. Then, on the Seventh Day, Christ our God - who created all things (John 1:1-18) and cannot be contained, reposed in the tomb, just as He had been via a great mystery contained in the womb of our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. And on the first day, the day of creation, Christ rose from the dead, 49 days later, the Holy Spirit descended, and this also alludes to the mystical eigth day of creation - the light of the World to Come. Let there be light! And the structural similarity between John 1 and Genesis 1 I believe underscores the prophetic aspects of Genesis chapter 1.

Regarding Christ as the completion of man, and salvation as the process of becoming human, through Theosis, that is to say, putting on Christ in Baptism just as Christ our God put on our humanity, as attested by Galatians 3:27, which we Orthodox sing on the feast of the Baptism of our Lord - Theophany (january 6th) - “Whoever has been baptized in Christ has put on Christ! to which we add an ”Alleliuia”, the former dean of St. Vladimir’s Seminary and current successor of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, at Oxford, Fr. John Behr, has spoken of this subject extensively. I particularly enjoyed his lecture “The Shocking Truth of Orthodoxy,” if memory serves he also wrote a book on Patrisitics on this theme entitled Becoming Human, which unfortunately I have not had the time to read but is high on my reading list.

No disrespect intended brother but I try to avoid typologies and things of that nature. I don’t have a big problem with anyone else doing it but I try not to make connections between things like this unless it’s specifically mentioned in scripture. I know there are some connections specifically mentioned in scriptures but I try not to go beyond those examples. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t like to make assumptions in my theology and I mean that in the nicest way possible not to imply or accuse you of making assumptions. I just know that sometimes superficial connections have been made in the past that were used to formulate outrageous doctrines. The gnostics were notorious for doing this.

Studyman · 2026-02-26T13:07:15-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah nothing significant about the first day of creation or the day Jesus was resurrected huh?

I'm pretty sure when the Word of GOD Created His Feasts, He knew when He would be murdered, and raised from the dead, as I believe He knows the end from the beginning: I believe this in spite of the traditions and high days created by the religions of this world God placed me in. But it is my belief, you are free to believe as you wish.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T15:33:14-0600

Studyman said:
I'm pretty sure when the Word of GOD Created His Feasts, He knew when He would be murdered, and raised from the dead, as I believe He knows the end from the beginning: I believe this in spite of the traditions and high days created by the religions of this world God placed me in. But it is my belief, you are free to believe as you wish.

Indeed He does know the end from the beginning which might be why He didn’t think it was necessary to make a commandment concerning it since appointed times aren’t a requirement under the New Covenant and He knew we would observe it anyway.

The Liturgist · 2026-02-26T18:24:37-0600

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t have a big problem with anyone else doing it but I try not to make connections between things like this unless it’s specifically mentioned in scripture.

In the case of the typological connection between Genesis 1 and John 1 - it is specifically Scriptural, since John 1 explicitly quotes Genesis 1

tall73 · 2026-02-26T20:20:08-0600

Studyman said:
Not "Despite Christ being the Substance", but to remember of the prophesies and events that are yet to be fulfilled, "BECAUSE" they are all about Christ. Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day", they are not just worthless Jewish traditions as is promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord. They are shadows of things to come, that are of the very Body of Christ, not just worthless traditions. This is why Paul teaches the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile, not to let men judge in their respect, honor and obedience to God.

As opposed to the high days created by the religions of this world, which are "Shadows" of absolutely nothing yet to come.

You have already established you don't make pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Could you please explain how you observe these times?

tall73 · 2026-02-26T21:34:25-0600

Studyman said:
I'm pretty sure when the Word of GOD Created His Feasts, He knew when He would be murdered, and raised from the dead, as I believe He knows the end from the beginning: I believe this in spite of the traditions and high days created by the religions of this world God placed me in. But it is my belief, you are free to believe as you wish.

Yes, He knew what would happen, and so Jesus was the Passover Lamb, and the Firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, as predicted:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8

For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (NKJV)

1 Corinthians 15:20

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (NKJV)

tall73 · 2026-02-26T22:01:16-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Indeed He does know the end from the beginning which might be why He didn’t think it was necessary to make a commandment concerning it since appointed times aren’t a requirement under the New Covenant and He knew we would observe it anyway.

Could you please clarify your position on who the principalities who were disarmed are, and why you think that from the text?

Earlier you said you disagreed with the NKJV rendering. I responded to that, as I don't think the translation is much of an issue, but unless I missed it you didn't clarify.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-27T06:06:48-0600

The Liturgist said:
In the case of the typological connection between Genesis 1 and John 1 - it is specifically Scriptural, since John 1 explicitly quotes Genesis 1

Yeah I think that’s obvious.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-27T06:12:29-0600

tall73 said:
Could you please clarify your position on who the principalities who were disarmed are, and why you think that from the text?

Earlier you said you disagreed with the NKJV rendering. I responded to that, as I don't think the translation is much of an issue, but unless I missed it you didn't clarify.

I believe it’s referring to the Pharisees, they were disarmed by removing the appointed times therefore no one is to judge us according to appointed times.

tall73 · 2026-02-27T07:52:32-0600

BNR32FAN said:
I believe it’s referring to the Pharisees, they were disarmed by removing the appointed times therefore no one is to judge us according to appointed times.

Do you think these were Pharisees in or out of Christianity? It seems the Judaizers Paul warned against were Christians. But were they principalities and powers?

They didn't even have buy-in from the church, as the Jerusalem council ruled against them.

Also, how were the uncircumcised in the flesh Gentiles (but circumcised with the circumcision of Christ) under the appointed times to start with?

Studyman · 2026-02-27T09:38:19-0600

The Liturgist said:
Interestingly all of the holy days you mentioned have been incorporated into the Church, for in every case their actual meaning was fulfilled in the incarnation of Christ, and we now await the fulfillment of His second coming.

And Yet "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad". The Lamb of God has been slain, but the Judgment of God against the god's of Egypt has yet to come, as Paul tells you here, several years after the Christ had ascended to His Father. And Feast of Unleavened bread is a journey all men who believe God must partake of, as it represents the "coming out of sin", without which the Passover means nothing, as Paul points out in 1 Cor. 10, years after the Jesus of the Bible ascended up to His Father. And Pentecost, the event that signifies God's Promise to those who obey Him, is honored by every generation, not just first Church of God under God Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant, but their children, for "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad"

It is true that there are "many", who come in Christ's Name, who say "ALL" has already been fulfilled. But in Colossians 2:16,17, which was spoken Years after Jesus was murdered and raised from the dead, and ascended to His Father, Paul is still telling us these events are Not Already Fulfilled, but are shadows of Events "Yet to Come". And as Jesus said, not one jot or title of God's Law will pass until "ALL" has been fulfilled. They certainly were not yet fulfilled when Paul wrote his Epistle to the Colossians, and I don't believe they are fulfilled in my life, but are still shadows of things yet to come, in the life of all believers.

I too, await the fulfillment of His 2nd Coming, as did Paul, therefore I labour, that, whether present or absent, I may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

As the Spirit of Christ also Inspired it to be written in 2 Peter 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

I understand the popular religious tradition of creating high days in worship of an image of God. In my studies, the Faithful examples God gave us in Scriptures, didn't engage in this popular behavior. When Israel did it, God punished them until it became apparent they simply didn't believe Him. (Is. 1: 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.".

Paul teaches these things were written so that we would not follow the same path as they did. I advocate that we follow Paul's teaching.

The Liturgist said:
Colossians 2:16 precludes us from judging each other on how we observe the Sabbath - which is why in this thread I do not criticize the practices of Adventists and other Sabbatarians.

According to the Text, Paul was speaking to the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, and here is what he said:

"Let no man therefore "judge you" in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

"Let no man "beguile you" of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

So I think you are right not to judge men for their obedience to God, but if you did, Paul is instructing them not to be influenced by the judgment. And Paul is encouraging the Body of Christ, who has rejected the traditions and commandments of men the mainstream preachers of his time taught for doctrines, to remain steadfast, knowing they would be critical of them for rejecting their popular religious philosophies and traditions, just as they were of Jesus and Peter and the first Church of God under His Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant.

It's a great study.

The Liturgist · 2026-02-27T10:47:29-0600

Studyman said:
And Yet "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad". The Lamb of God has been slain, but the Judgment of God against the god's of Egypt has yet to come, as Paul tells you here, several years after the Christ had ascended to His Father. And Feast of Unleavened bread is a journey all men who believe God must partake of, as it represents the "coming out of sin", without which the Passover means nothing, as Paul points out in 1 Cor. 10, years after the Jesus of the Bible ascended up to His Father. And Pentecost, the event that signifies God's Promise to those who obey Him, is honored by every generation, not just first Church of God under God Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant, but their children, for "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad"

The feast of Pentecost is celebrated by all traditional Christian denominations.

Studyman said:
It is true that there are "many", who come in Christ's Name, who say "ALL" has already been fulfilled. But in Colossians 2:16,17, which was spoken Years after Jesus was murdered and raised from the dead, and ascended to His Father, Paul is still telling us these events are Not Already Fulfilled, but are shadows of Events "Yet to Come".

Indeed, but that’s another layer of prophecy - the life of the world to come. Only full preterists believe everything has been fulfilled, and full preterism is extremely controversial; no traditional Christian church teaches it. Rather the believe we see in the early church is that Christ will return, we shall stand before His dread judgement seat, and those who believe on Him and are saved by His uncreated grace, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will inherit eternal life.

Insofar as the Jewish holy days might also be shadows of what is to come, well, as I’ve shown, traditional churches like the Eastern Orthodox still observe them, in a form that has been updated to reflect the Incarnation. For example, it would be absurd for us to celebrate Pentecost without commemorating the descent of God the Holy Spirit.

Studyman said:
And as Jesus said, not one jot or title of God's Law will pass until "ALL" has been fulfilled. They certainly were not yet fulfilled when Paul wrote his Epistle to the Colossians, and I don't believe they are fulfilled in my life, but are still shadows of things yet to come, in the life of all believers.

I too, await the fulfillment of His 2nd Coming, as did Paul, therefore I labour, that, whether present or absent, I may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

As the Spirit of Christ also Inspired it to be written in 2 Peter 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

I understand the popular religious tradition of creating high days in worship of an image of God. In my studies, the Faithful examples God gave us in Scriptures, didn't engage in this popular behavior. When Israel did it, God punished them until it became apparent they simply didn't believe Him. (Is. 1: 5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.".

Paul teaches these things were written so that we would not follow the same path as they did. I advocate that we follow Paul's teaching.

Indeed, but the traditional churches did not create high days in worship of an image of God, but rather celebrated that which had already transpired, in a manner directly based upon Jewish worship, which included worship on the first day, as wee see in Exodus, as I pointed out.

Also St. Paul did establish that the Apostolic Tradition is authoritative, in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and that we are not to fellowship with those who disregard it, in 2 Thessalonians 2:37 (and by implication, Galatians 1:8-9, since departure from this Tradition, which includes, for example, the Nicene Creed and the 27 book New Testament canon, entails preaching another gospel.

Studyman said:
According to the Text, Paul was speaking to the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, and here is what he said:

"Let no man therefore "judge you" in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

"Let no man "beguile you" of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

So I think you are right not to judge men for their obedience to God, but if you did, Paul is instructing them not to be influenced by the judgment. And Paul is encouraging the Body of Christ, who has rejected the traditions and commandments of men the mainstream preachers of his time taught for doctrines, to remain steadfast, knowing they would be critical of them for rejecting their popular religious philosophies and traditions, just as they were of Jesus and Peter and the first Church of God under His Prophesied New Priesthood Covenant.

It's a great study.

Well, I haven’t judged anyone, and I would encourage you not to, insofar as your criticisms of the traditional churches and attacks upon us on allegations of not keeping the Sabbath or otherwise doing things that jeopardize our salvation for reasons of not following the Jewish holidays (which by the way, strictly speaking, we would not be obliged to follow insofar as they’re part of the Law which according to St. Paul in Galatians 3:15-5:15 inclusive, we are not under), seem contrary to Colossians 2:16 (and also the words of our Lord, “judge not, lest ye not be judged”).

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-27T11:00:36-0600

tall73 said:
Do you think these were Pharisees in or out of Christianity? It seems the Judaizers Paul warned against were Christians. But were they principalities and powers?

They didn't even have buy-in from the church, as the Jerusalem council ruled against them.

Also, how were the uncircumcised in the flesh Gentiles (but circumcised with the circumcision of Christ) under the appointed times to start with?

No I think the term “rulers and authorities” refers to the Jewish Pharisees outside of Christianity. There were other sects of Christians like the Ebionites who believed that we had to continue to keep the Mosaic law but I don’t see them in a position of authority like the Jewish Pharisees were. I would say that during the apostolic era all of the gods, including the God of Abraham, had appointed times of worship that were common knowledge to the people and until the apostles specifically told them otherwise everyone assumed that these appointed times were still in effect. Therefore the Pharisees could point to these Christians not observing the appointed times and accuse them of profaning God’s commandments which is why Paul had to address the problem otherwise we still to this day would have no idea whether or not we are obligated to observe these appointed times.

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