Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

tall73 · Wednesday at 10:23 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah I wasn’t sure if that was referring to the Christian Pentecost or the Jewish one.

The fact that he was in a hurry to get particularly to the city of Jerusalem, points to the pilgrim feast aspect of Pentecost.

But of course, to Paul it is both. Pentecost is a shadow pointing to Christ. He knows Christ. And myriads (tens of thousands) of Jews in Jerusalem (a large percentage of the population) also came to know Christ.

So the Jewish believers didn't just stop regarding the law.

Acts 21:20

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law (NKJV)

They were then able to point other Jews to Christ through that means.

Yet, they knew they were not saved by the law. They were justified by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Acts 15:11

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (NKJV)

The law was a tutor to bring them to Christ that they might be justified by faith, not observance of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (NKJV)

Jesus was born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under the law, that they might receive adoption:

Galatians 4:4-7

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (NKJV)

They are not under the law. They walk in the Spirit, putting to death the works of the flesh. and they carry out the fruit of the Spirit, against which there is no law:

Galatians 5:16-25

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit (NKJV)

We see the same death to the law and life to God through the Spirit in Romans:

Romans 7:1-6

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (NKJV)

The Spirit does what the law could not do, as it was weak through the flesh. The righteous requirements of the law are met in those who walk in the Spirit:

Romans 8:3-4

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NKJV)

The law is not meant for the righteous person but the lawless and insubordinate:

1 Timothy 1:5-11

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. (NKJV)

Paul still verified he kept the law in Acts 21. But He did not look to it for his righteousness:

Philippians 3:2-11

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. (NKJV)

By the way, the fact that the church still celebrates Pascha, recognizing Christ as our Passover Lamb (I Cor 5), celebrates Pentecost, the resurrection on the wavesheaf (which was undeniably a Sunday, and which Jesus fulfilled as the firstfruits from the dead, I Cor. 15), etc. show that the shadows were not forgotten.

But they are shadows, and Christ is reality.

The command is to not let anyone judge you. That would apply whether the Colossians were observing or not observing these shadows. In Romans 14, it was not a matter to judge, but those who observed did so to the Lord, and those who did not, the same.

So no, I don't think the uncircumcised Gentiles in the flesh had to keep the appointed times. They were never commanded to in the first place. But as long as they were not doing it for salvation, I don't think it would be a problem either. It wasn't something to judge regarding. They were already complete in Christ.

When it became an issue was when people tried to be justified by the law. And then Paul took a very hard line:

Galatians 5:2-5

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (NKJV)

pasifika · Wednesday at 10:33 PM

tall73 said:
No, I don't think that is what the text is getting at. I think there is one rest being spoken of throughout the passage.

Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (NKJV)

The promise of entering His rest remains. It was there before. It remains now, in the time of the writing to the Hebrews. One group fell short of that rest (in the wilderness, they didn't enter His rest). But it was still available to enter that rest (in the time of David, which we know from Psalm 95). And it still remained to be entered in the day of those recipients of the letter to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 4:4-10

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

It is the same rest in 4 and 7. God ceased His work of creation on day 7. And that rest from creation was ongoing since then.

Notice the things said about this rest

Those to whom it was preached first did not enter that rest (God's rest)

It remains so that that some must enter it (God's rest)

But now after such a long time, there is still a chance to enter it (God's rest)

The people in David's time were invited to enter that rest "today" (God's rest).

And now the people in the time of the author of Hebrews, can yet enter that rest "today" (God's rest)

That is why it remains. It is the same one that those in the wilderness did not enter, that still remained to be entered in David's time, and it still could be entered in the time of the recipients of Hebrews (God's rest)

We enter His rest.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (NKJV)

This rest is a ceasing from our works.

Notice how it describes those who didn't enter--not mixed with faith, unbelief

And notice how it refers to those who do enter--we who have believed.

Hebrews 3:12
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (NKJV)

Hebrews 3:18-19
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (NKJV)

Hebrews 4:2
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. (NKJV)

Hebrews 4:3
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” (NKJV)

It even says it was the gospel that was preached to both groups--the ones that did not enter, and the ones who did.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

It is all the same rest. God's rest from works. It is the gospel. Those who didn't enter did not enter because of unbelief, because of lack of faith. And then he says "for we who have believed do enter that rest".

It is the same rest throughout, resting from works, and having faith. We through faith cease from our works, and enter His rest, where He rested from His works.

Ultimately the falling short of the promised land is also pointing to the chance to enter the true promised land by faith.

Therefore, today, do not harden your heart. Enter His rest by faith.

In context, had the people in the wilderness had faith In God to vanquish the Canaanites, they would have obeyed.

And the author of Hebrews is saying, don't repeat their mistake. Don't have an evil heart of unbelief, and depart from the living God.

The recipient of the letter to the Hebrews were to continue in faith, and enter that rest.

Yes, it's only one Rest but the day has change. God's Rest was on the 7th day But God's people on a different day "today"..

pasifika · Wednesday at 10:35 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
There is no where the Text says rest on today, the only thing today is referred to is not harden our hearts, like the trial of those in the wilderness. Heb4:7 Heb3:7-19 Psa 95:7-13.

Heb 4:7-10

The Liturgist · Wednesday at 10:46 PM

pasifika said:
Yes, it's only one Rest but the day has change. God's Rest was on the 7th day But God's people on a different day "today"..

Which happens to be the day God created the universe, rose from the dead having trampled down death by death, and descended in the person of the Holy Spirit to indwell the Twelve Apostles and 200 other followers of Christ on Pentecost. And in the Old Testament, we see worship did happen on the first day as well as the seventh. Let there be Light.

The intolerance of traditional Christians, particularly Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, for worshipping on Sunday, despite the fact many of them (including all Catholic clergy and religious and many Catholic laity, and most Catholic and most Orthodox parishes) worship on Saturday, is the real issue here. I have no issue with Sabbatarians worshipping on the seventh day. I worship on the seventh day I simply ask you not accuse me of sinning because I also worship on Sunday.

pasifika · Wednesday at 11:15 PM

The Liturgist said:
Which happens to be the day God created the universe, rose from the dead having trampled down death by death, and descended in the person of the Holy Spirit to indwell the Twelve Apostles and 200 other followers of Christ on Pentecost. And in the Old Testament, we see worship did happen on the first day as well as the seventh. Let there be Light.

The intolerance of traditional Christians, particularly Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, for worshipping on Sunday, despite the fact many of them (including all Catholic clergy and religious and many Catholic laity, and most Catholic and most Orthodox parishes) worship on Saturday, is the real issue here. I have no issue with Sabbatarians worshipping on the seventh day. I worship on the seventh day I simply ask you not accuse me of sinning because I also worship on Sunday.

I'm not here to accused anyone I worship Sunday or any day I feel like it.

SabbathBlessings · 2026-02-26T04:15:07-0600

Sure, we can make the Bible say anything we want, when we go off Script. It just becomes our truth and not His. Only His is saving.

Re: the annual feasts: God commanded all of the law of Moses, so this is not an argument anyone is making. We can try to make them the same and equal as the laws man wrote as the same as the laws God Himself wrote. But God did not, He wrote Ten Commandments and added no more Deut5:22 they are the whole law of God, not law of man. Deut4:13 Exo20:6 to try to include them in the commandments written personally by the Holy Spirit, the weekly Sabbath that started from Creation as the same as the annual feats and sabbaths that came after sin, when God never did , I think is going to be a big mistake. God Himself speaks on profaning the Sabbath throughout Scriptures, He said its doing evil, keeping the Sabbath is doing just and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 the foundation of His throne Psa 89:14. Holding on to a verse or two that even came with a salvation warning that could be gravely misunderstood, over the clear words that directly proceeded out of the mouth of God, doesn’t seem wise to me, but we have free will.

We do not serve a God of confusion, He would not have said Remember Exo20:8 , if His intent would be that we can forget to join ourselves to Him and serve Him Isa 56:6 so He can bless us. Isa 56:2. Forget the only commandment He said Remember.

The annual feasts days were written on paper by Moses placed besides the ark in a book. God Himself wrote the Ten Commandment, its the works of God Exo 32:18 His Testimony Exo31:18 under His mercy seat, because each one of these commandments came with capital punishment, the wages of sin is death Rom6:23 breaking one we break them all James2:11 and its still sin 1John3:4 which leads to the wrong path Heb10:26-30 unless we change our mind Mat4:17. the law of Moses is what the prescription of sin was until the Seed Fulfilled in Christ, Removing a jot or tittle of the law doesn’t make the law of God go away, its in heaven Rev15:5 Rev11:19 final atonement has not happened, all it does it removes His mercy and what He covers Pro28:13 Exo20:6

We cannot make God change His mind, God’s Word is settled in heaven Psa 119:89 where His Testimony is the Ten Commandments Exo25:21 Rev15:5 Rev11:19. God doesn’t lower Himself to us, He lifts us up to Him but sadly many won’t accept because they don’t like His conditions Isa 56:6 John3:19-21 they want all His blessings, but not the way He gives them Isa56:2 Exo20:11 they want them on their own terms, their will, not His Psa 40:8. nothing new under the sun, the Bible is filled with these examples and sadly not much has changed 2Tim4:3-4

Leaf473 · 2026-02-26T06:57:15-0600

When I ask my Seventh-Day Adventist sisters and brothers what to do in the far north where there may be a month-long Sabbath "day", the reply is
"Pick a reasonable option" or similar.

I can't think of a place where the Bible says that. Maybe it does?

The biblical method of dealing with questions about the law is to consult the Urim and Thummim

These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim - Ezra 2

Studyman · 2026-02-26T07:02:16-0600

The Liturgist said:
None of the non-Sabbatarians here are objecting to Sabbatarians worshipping on the Seventh Day.

I do not except the labels placed on men by the various religious sects that exist in the world God placed me in. Jesus honored God in His Commandments including His Sabbaths, yet His Father never labeled Him a "Sabbatarian". And if a man rests on God's Sabbaths, but promotes for doctrines the commandments of men, then this man isn't keeping God's sabbaths, is he?

The Liturgist said:
The main issue rather is Sabbatarians judging us as sinful for worshipping on the First Day, despite the fact that the ancient Jews worshipped on the first day (Exodus 29:38-42, Daniel 6:10) and despite the fact we have obvious worship on the first day twice in Acts, most notably on the morning of the first day in Acts chapter 2, at the third hour from sunrise (which in Judea, at that time of year, would be around 9 AM, indeed the highly respected NIV translates this as “nine in the morning’).

You are free to justify and promote any religious philosophy you want. I was simply pointing out that Paul, in Colossians 2:16, was teaching the Body of Christ not to let men judge them in their obedience to God.

The Liturgist said:
I think I speak for all traditional Christians on the forum in saying all we desire is that Sabbatarians refrain from attacking us on this issue (as indeed a great many do; I’m having a very friendly dialogue with an SDA member at present, who hasn’t once gotten on my case once about the fact I worship on Sunday as well as on the seventh day.

Again, good for you and your traditions. I was simply pointing out in the Scriptures where Paul was teaching the Body of Christ not to let men judge them in their faithful obedience to God. "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,".

I'm not SDA, I do not promote SDA. Not sure what SDA has to do with my post.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T07:06:28-0600

Leaf473 said:
When I ask my Seventh-Day Adventist sisters and brothers what to do in the far north where there may be a month-long Sabbath "day", the reply is
"Pick a reasonable option" or similar.

I can't think of a place where the Bible says that. Maybe it does?

The biblical method of dealing with questions about the law is to consult the Urim and Thummim

These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim - Ezra 2

Lol I can’t imagine a 4-6 week long sabbath. That would be crazy. Your starve and freeze to death. Don’t you dare go gather any firewood or cook anything.

tall73 · 2026-02-26T07:10:50-0600

pasifika said:
Yes, it's only one Rest but the day has change. God's Rest was on the 7th day But God's people on a different day "today"..

Yes and no. God's rest from His creative work STARTED on the 7th day, but has been ongoing ever since. Which is why "Today" is the appeal. We can enter God's ongoing rest, it is open to enter. So "today" if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

Notice the clause in 3b:

Hebrews 4:3-4

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works” (NKJV)

The point established is that God's creative works were finished from the 7th day on.

And Israel, after being redeemed from Egypt, drawn to Himself, were invited to enter into His rest by faith, but that generation failed (other than Caleb and Joshua), due to unbelief.

He cites "today" because that was the invitation in the Psalm. If we hear His voice, do not harden your heart. Enter His ongoing rest "today".

It is every day. We join Him there and stay there in faith, resting from our works, but depending on Him.

Leaf473 · 2026-02-26T07:14:19-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Lol I can’t imagine a 4-6 week long sabbath. That would be crazy. Your starve and freeze to death. Don’t you dare go gather any firewood or cook anything.

It would be difficult.

If we're not sure what to do about something in the law, the Bible option that I see is to consult the Urim and Thummim.

Do what looks like a good idea... That's not in the Bible, AFIK

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T07:15:26-0600

tall73 said:
Yes and no. God's rest from His creative work STARTED on the 7th day, but has been ongoing ever since. Which is why "Today" is the appeal. We can enter God's ongoing rest, it is open to enter. So "today" if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart.

Notice the clause in 3b:

Hebrews 4:3-4
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works” (NKJV)

The point established is that God's creative works were finished from the 7th day on.

And Israel, after being redeemed from Egypt, drawn to Himself, were invited to enter into His rest by faith, but that generation failed (other than Caleb and Joshua), due to unbelief.

He cites "today" because that was the invitation in the Psalm. If we hear His voice, do not harden your heart. Enter His ongoing rest "today".

It is every day. We join Him there and stay there in faith, resting from our works, but depending on Him.

I disagree that God has been resting since creation, there’s been several evenings and mornings since then.

Studyman · 2026-02-26T07:21:49-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Really, so Paul was telling them to continue in the things that were a mere shadow of things to come despite Christ being the substance?

Not "Despite Christ being the Substance", but to remember of the prophesies and events that are yet to be fulfilled, "BECAUSE" they are all about Christ. Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day", they are not just worthless Jewish traditions as is promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord. They are shadows of things to come, that are of the very Body of Christ, not just worthless traditions. This is why Paul teaches the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile, not to let men judge in their respect, honor and obedience to God.

As opposed to the high days created by the religions of this world, which are "Shadows" of absolutely nothing yet to come.

tall73 · 2026-02-26T07:55:50-0600

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree that God has been resting since creation, there’s been several evenings and mornings since then.

Not resting in the sense of doing nothing . Jesus said He is working and His Father is working.

He completed His creative works. Hence verse 3b

The Liturgist · 2026-02-26T08:12:47-0600

Studyman said:
Not "Despite Christ being the Substance", but to remember of the prophesies and events that are yet to be fulfilled, "BECAUSE" they are all about Christ. Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day", they are not just worthless Jewish traditions as is promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord. They are shadows of things to come, that are of the very Body of Christ, not just worthless traditions. This is why Paul teaches the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile, not to let men judge in their respect, honor and obedience to God.

As opposed to the high days created by the religions of this world, which are "Shadows" of absolutely nothing yet to come.

Interestingly all of the holy days you mentioned have been incorporated into the Church, for in every case their actual meaning was fulfilled in the incarnation of Christ, and we now await the fulfillment of His second coming.

Pentecost is a major feast of both the descent of the Holy Spirit and of the Trinity.
Trumpets - I assume you mean Rosh Hashannah, and that has become the ecclesiastical New Year in the Eastern Orthodox and the Coptic Orthodox, and the equivalent Feasts of the Sanctification and Renewal of the Church in the Syriac Orthodox church.
Atonement - this is the solemn Exaltation of the Cross on September 14th, where we worship Christ who has atoned for our sins.
Tabernacles - this was fulfilled in the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–13, Luke 9:28–36) and is celebrated on the Feast of the Transfiguration, which in most churches is on August the 6th, but some churches celebrate this on the last Sunday before Great Lent (which commemorates the 40 day fast of our Lord after His baptism).

As for the high days created by other religions, such as Diwali, as well as Jewish occasions not relevant to Christianity such as Purm, these are not celebrated by any Christian church.

And as for the others, Christmas, the Feast of the Nativity, celebrates the Incarnation of Christ, Theophany, His baptism, Annunciation, His conception, Lazarus Saturday - his resurrection of St. Lazarus, Palm Sunday - HIs entrance into Jerusalem, Maundy Thursday - His institution of the Eucharist, Great and Holy Friday - his Crucifixion, Pascha - His Resurrection, Ascension - His Ascension, and so on.

Colossians 2:16 precludes us from judging each other on how we observe the Sabbath - which is why in this thread I do not criticize the practices of Adventists and other Sabbatarians.

The Liturgist · 2026-02-26T08:39:51-0600

Studyman said:
I do not except the labels placed on men by the various religious sects that exist in the world God placed me in. Jesus honored God in His Commandments including His Sabbaths, yet His Father never labeled Him a "Sabbatarian". And if a man rests on God's Sabbaths, but promotes for doctrines the commandments of men, then this man isn't keeping God's sabbaths, is he?

It’s not for me to judge; I am prohibited from judging someone on their observation of the Sabbath by Colossians 2:16 and prohibited from making a judgement of that sort in general by “Judge not, least ye not be judged,” the words of Christ. Even in a hypothetical scenario, I can’t answer that question, because since we are all sinners and all have fallen short of the glory of God, according to Scripture, God might well take that into account, as well as taking into account the churches we were born into and the circumstances of His life - since a perpetual schism has existed involving most of the Church since 1054 AD, as an Orthodox Christian I pray for the Salvation of all. This does not make me a universalist, for I recognize some might not be saved, but I don’t relish in that fact, unlike some; I would never say something like “Well, I guess we’ll see if you’re right at the Last Judgement” or other implied threats of damnation, which frankly I find chilling and disturbing. I pray for everyone - including you. You should know I love you very much, @Studyman

If there is a term you would prefer to Sabbatarian, please let me know. The word itself as far as I can tell has no perjorative context, since it basically means “Sabbath-keeper”, it does imply non-Sabbatarians do not keep the Sabbath, which I disagree with, but on the other hand my denomination is formally called the Orthoodox Catholic Apostolic Church of Christ, or Eastern Orthodoxy or Pravoslavie (in both cases meaning Correct Glorification), but other denominations such as the Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and so on also have a concept of Orthodoxy, and so I don’t seek to weaponize that term. (For that matter the term Catholic applied without a qualifier like Roman to the RCC implies other denominations lack Catholicity, however, churches not in communion with Rome preclude such a usage from being technically correct, for example, the Assyrian Catholic Church of the East, my own denomination, Evangelical Catholic Lutherans, Anglo-Catholic Anglicans, Scoto-Catholic Presbyterians, Reformed Catholic Calvinists and Congregationalists, and the Old Catholics who became separated with Rome following the 1st Vatican Council in the 19th century, such as the Norwegian Catholic Church.

You are free to justify and promote any religious philosophy you want. I was simply pointing out that Paul, in Colossians 2:16, was teaching the Body of Christ not to let men judge them in their obedience to God.

You object to being called a Sabbatarian, but insist on referring to my Orthodox faith and the faith of other traditional Christians as “religious philosophies” despite the fact that in my case, I have previously asked you not to? I am prepared to refer to your beliefs by your preferred title - in part because some people refer to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox using inaccurate or offensive titles, such as Schismatics, Jacobites, Monophysites and so on.

Again, good for you and your traditions. I was simply pointing out in the Scriptures where Paul was teaching the Body of Christ not to let men judge them in their faithful obedience to God. "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,".

I'm not SDA, I do not promote SDA. Not sure what SDA has to do with my post.

The point was that most Sabbatarians co-exist in a friendly manner with those who also worship on Sunday; and my only objection is to those who accuse us of sinning because we do this, despite worship on Sunday literally being in the Bible (Exodus 29:38-42, Daniel 6:10 and Acts 2, among others), even if we also worship on the Sabbath, but even if we observe the Sabbath on the First Day, which is the custom in some churches, for instance, the Lutherans and Armenian Apostolic Church, or in another different way, Colossians 2:16 prohibits us from judging those.

Additionally, regarding the traditions followed by traditional churches - these derived their authority from Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:17, and so on - the traditions of man our Lord was referring to in Mark 7:13, if we read that passage in its context, are clearly those of Rabinnical Judaism.

Additionally, we do know, from Galatians 3:15-5:15, and Acts 15, that Christians are not under the Law of Moses, and there is nothing to indicate we have any legalistic obligations - three commandments apply to us - that we love one another as Christ has loved us (a new commandment, according to Christ our God), that we love our neighbor as ourself, and that we love God with all our heart and mind and soul. Additionally an obligation exists to baptize all nations in the name of the father, son and holy ghost (Matthew 28:19) and to celebrate the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 11:27-34), discerning the Body and Blood of Christ, lest we become ill or die, as had happened to some of the Corinthians; Acts 15 further instructs us from eating things offered to idols or drinking blood or eating things strangled, and we are precluded from judging others, and are required to forgive, lest we be forgiven, and Christ gave us the prayer known as the Lord’s Prayer or the Our Father as the Christian prayer par excellence. But none of this should be regarded in a legalistic way, for we are not saved by our own merits, as St. Paul makes clear, but by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T09:04:57-0600

Studyman said:
Not "Despite Christ being the Substance", but to remember of the prophesies and events that are yet to be fulfilled, "BECAUSE" they are all about Christ. Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles, Last Great Day", they are not just worthless Jewish traditions as is promoted by "Many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord. They are shadows of things to come, that are of the very Body of Christ, not just worthless traditions. This is why Paul teaches the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile, not to let men judge in their respect, honor and obedience to God.

As opposed to the high days created by the religions of this world, which are "Shadows" of absolutely nothing yet to come.

Yeah nothing significant about the first day of creation or the day Jesus was resurrected huh?

Hentenza · 2026-02-26T09:21:37-0600

BNR32FAN said:
I disagree that God has been resting since creation, there’s been several evenings and mornings since then.

Also if you noticed Gen. 2:2 does not include the “then there was evening and then there was morning” statement that is present on the other six days suggesting that God’s rest on the seventh day is indeed eternal. God rested of His creation because no additional creation was necessary.

BNR32FAN · 2026-02-26T09:26:47-0600

Hentenza said:
Also if you noticed Gen. 2:2 does not include the “then there was evening and then there was morning” statement that is present on the other six days suggesting that God’s rest on the seventh day is indeed eternal. God rested of His creation because no additional creation was necessary.

Yeah the creation story was finished and the term evening and morning isn’t in chapter 2 that phrase was only used in chapter 1 which didn’t mention the 7th day. I almost certain though that there has been a couple evenings and mornings since creation, I’m sure of it.

The Liturgist · 2026-02-26T09:40:32-0600

Hentenza said:
Also if you noticed Gen. 2:2 does not include the “then there was evening and then there was morning” statement that is present on the other six days suggesting that God’s rest on the seventh day is indeed eternal. God rested of His creation because no additional creation was necessary.

On this point, I would note to you and to @BNR32FAN and @tall73 that regarding God resting - we really should interpret that as a prophecy of Christ reposing in the tomb on Holy Saturday, and also as God not making any changes in the world for one day after the initial creation of man - in the case of God in His divine nature, He is, it should be noted ,eternal and immutable, meaning He does not change, and does not experience time, for He created time, time is a property of this world and this life, which God exists outside of (and which hopefully we will as well in the life of the World to Come, in eternal life, since experiencing linear time for all eternity I believe would be torture, indeed on discussing the prospects of it with my bishop he remarked that my fear of linear time unending sounded very much like a description of Hell. Rather inheriting eternal life through theosis means escaping from the constraints imposed by the created attribute of this world known as time.

God Himself is clearly described in the Bible as unchanging, impassable and immutable, except in His incarnation as Christ Jesus, so language about Him for example changing his mind and so on should be interpreted in a non-anthropomorphological concept, for Scripture also makes it clear that God is, in his unoriginate divine essence, inscrutable and beyond comprehension. In Orthodoxy we specifically believe that God can be known only through His energies, such as uncreated grace, and in His incarnation as Jesus Christ, in which our humanity was united with His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division (the important principle of communicatio idiomatum, historically stressed among Protestants by the Lutherans and among ancient Christians most heavily emphasized by the likes of pre-Chalcedonian theologians such as St. Athanasius and St. Cyril of Alexandria, and the Cappadocians and St. John Chrysostom, Oriental Orthodox theologians such as St. Severus of Antioch and St. Philoxenus of Mabbug and the Syriac Orthodox hymnographer and “flute of the spirit”* St. Jacob of Sarugh, and Eastern Orthodox theologians such as St. John of Damascus).

* This is a reference to St. Ephraim the Syrian as Harp of the Spirit. The Nestorians of the time proposed Mar Narsai as ”flute of the Spirit”, but Mar Narsai is deeply uncomfortable for an Orthodox Christian, although some of his hymns remain in use in the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, some of his hymns were extremely ugly examples of Nestorianism at his worse, for example, he composed a him in which, contrary to the principle of communicatio idiomatum idiomatum, he specifically attributed individual acts of Christ to his divinity or to his humanity, in a dichotomistic way which contradicted the idea of the Incarnation and of Christ as Emanuel - God with Us.

By the way my fellow Orthodox friend @prodromos and my Lutheran friend @ViaCrucis have written eloquently about communicatio idiomatum. I feel it is an important principle which is also extremely relevant to this thread.

In addition, I believe we must not overlook the prophetic element of 1 Genesis - while I do not deny it refers to the creation of the universe, I believe it very clearly refers to the passion and resurrection of Christ and the light of the World to Come. Consider that the process of the creation of man began on the sixth day, not with “Let there be” as in a single action completed immediately, but rather uniquely, “Let us create man in our image”, implying a process, one which, the same day of the week many years later Christ remade us in His image on the Cross, before proclaiming “it is finished” - after Pontius Pilate upon seeing Christ having been suffered declared “Ecce homo” - behold the Man. Then, on the Seventh Day, Christ our God - who created all things (John 1:1-18) and cannot be contained, reposed in the tomb, just as He had been via a great mystery contained in the womb of our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary. And on the first day, the day of creation, Christ rose from the dead, 49 days later, the Holy Spirit descended, and this also alludes to the mystical eigth day of creation - the light of the World to Come. Let there be light! And the structural similarity between John 1 and Genesis 1 I believe underscores the prophetic aspects of Genesis chapter 1.

Regarding Christ as the completion of man, and salvation as the process of becoming human, through Theosis, that is to say, putting on Christ in Baptism just as Christ our God put on our humanity, as attested by Galatians 3:27, which we Orthodox sing on the feast of the Baptism of our Lord - Theophany (january 6th) - “Whoever has been baptized in Christ has put on Christ! to which we add an ”Alleliuia”, the former dean of St. Vladimir’s Seminary and current successor of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, at Oxford, Fr. John Behr, has spoken of this subject extensively. I particularly enjoyed his lecture “The Shocking Truth of Orthodoxy,” if memory serves he also wrote a book on Patrisitics on this theme entitled Becoming Human, which unfortunately I have not had the time to read but is high on my reading list.

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