Romans 3:10-11 "..there is none righteous, there is none.." This does not prove total depravity. It does prove total inability [to justify oneself].

Dave... · Wednesday at 12:11 PM

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: "There is none righteous (does good), no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The immediate context. Vs. 9 "We" Paul is referring to Jews. "Them" is referring to Gentiles. Both Jew and Gentile under the same condition. This is the bigger context also.

Romans 3:10-12, quotes Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 in general.

Romans 3:13-18 Paul quotes Psalms 14.

Romans 3:23 quotes Isaiah 53:6 and other places Isaiah 53 overall is drawn from by Paul when making his point in Romans.

It's clear that many people 'seek God' who remain lost. It's how honestly one seeks the kingdom of God that separates the ones who find it from the ones who don't. There are many who "seek" to enter and will not be able to.

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Read Psalm 14 for context to see what Paul was quoting in Romans 3.

Psalm 14:1-7 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

How does one 'become corrupt' and 'turn aside' who was born that way already? Why does David say "the fool has said in his heart"? Why not 'all men have said in their heart...'? All these conditions and problems are qualified with "workers of iniquity" and basically Gentiles for the most part. This is how the Jews of that time would have understood it. It's not a Jewish problem, it's a Gentile problem.

It's clear that there is a possibility of righteousness within that same context, as God is near, or with them. "For God is with the generation of the righteous." That would be the Jews, how they seen themselves in that passage.

---------------
Interesting that Augustine interpreted " There is none who does good, No, not one" The "not one" as "except One", speaking of Jesus, which really fits the context of justification that Paul was pushing in Romans when he quoted it. Isaiah 53 and the surrounding context of Romans is clearly about that very same thing, Jesus being the justifier because he alone is righteous [by God's standards].

John Owen qualifies vs. 2-3 in chapter 3 with "all fools" from vs. 1. Practical atheists who persecute God.

Good article. Both Augustine and Owens quoted from this source.
Does Psalm 14 Apply to All of Humanity?
---------------

Romans 3:21-24 Since nobody can be justified by the works of the Law, Paul then offers the 'good news' of righteousness by faith for all those who believe.

The context is justification. Man lacks the moral ability to be righteous. To be declared righteous. To be justified by the Law. That's the way Paul was using it. Paul quotes Psalm 14 to show that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. His main point in saying that was that the Jews and Gentiles alike are in the same spiritual predicament. Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 3 and beyond that it's not a Gentile problem, but a "Jew and Gentile" problem.

To sum up Paul's point, vs. 23 of chapter 3 does a nice job of it.

23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Both Jew and Gentile ....) see vs 24-31 and into chapter 4 as the flow continues, using Abraham as an example [Who was imputed with Christ's righteousness].

See how the message is consistent if we understand that what is being emphasized is that man cannot justify himself? Why? Because there is none righteous, none that does good (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19-John 15:5).

The context is justification and the ability to do good by righteous standards and justify ones self.

So why does Paul add "There is none who seeks after God." to His quote from the OT?

It would seem to be an odd thing to say if we take it at face value since Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. And other places Psalm 9:10, 22:46, 40:16, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Hosea 10:12, etc.

Paul adds "there is none who seeks after God" in Romans 3 for a reason when quoting Psalms, that reason is up for debate, but taking that statement literally and defining it on an island doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. Since Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 lays that definition on the Gentiles (Isaiah 53:4,6.). Paul was making clear that it's just as much a problem for Jews as it is for Gentiles.

Remember that even Peter said to be careful when examining Paul's letters and not to read into them any false ideas.

2 Peter 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Dave... · Wednesday at 12:18 PM

Context for "none who seeks after God"

Psalm 14:1-7 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. ***They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one***. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

The context is the Gentiles. The Jews probably appealed to this Psalm often to justify their beliefs that the Salvation is for the physical Israel only, and not the Gentiles. Paul is deliberately quoting this to make a point. It even tells us why they have no knowledge, because...

(see emboldened part of passage above)

My conclusion...Justification is the context of Paul's point in Romans. There are those who quote that passage in Romans 3 as proof of moral inability, but the inability is about justification, not ones ability to respond to the Gospel message positively. The context of what Paul is quoting in Psalms and Isaiah says the exact opposite of the Calvinistic interpretation of that passage in Romans, as does the context of Romans 3 and the flow of Paul's point. It says that the inability was the result of sin and rejecting God, and not something that they were born with. In short, the Calvinist interpretation of that passage doesn't fit that context at all. That would be the last passage Paul would want to quote to prove mans inability to respond to the Gospel from birth, because it says the exact opposite. See the OP for that passage that Paul was quoting. That would be, however, a passage that the Jewish people of that time would reference often as they believed that they were God's people and saved by physical heritage, and Gentiles were excluded. Understanding that, read Romans 3 again and you'll see Paul combatting that false idea. In fact, it's the whole flow of Romans to confront these kinds of false notions that were engrained into Jewish thinking of that time. In chapter four and beyond, Paul even goes into Abraham and how he was justified by faith, not by the Law, not by his physical heritage. The whole flow of the letter is justification.

BTW, this is still true today. We are incapable of producing good, or righteousness from the flesh. But we are capable of wanting to do that. That's all that our initial faith requires. We then receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. From that point forward, anything good [by righteous standards] is from the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual Jew · Wednesday at 3:04 PM

Right. Agree with both posts. Romans 3 has to do with man's "total inability" to save himself, not a supposed total inability to respond to the gospel and God's offer of salvation. When you read the passage that Paul was referencing from Psalm 14 (same passage is in Psalm 53), you can see that it is those who say there is no God who do not seek God. It does not say that literally no one seeks God. If that was the case, then why would Hebrews 11:6 say that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him? He would have no one to reward if there was literally no one who seeks Him. Also, there is no excuse for anyone to suppress the truth and not glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). If everyone lacked the ability to seek God, then that would be a good excuse for not glorifying Him and being thankful to Him. But, Paul said there is no excuse.

Dave... · Wednesday at 7:25 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
When you read the passage that Paul was referencing from Psalm 14 (same passage is in Psalm 53), you can see that it is those who say there is no God who do not seek God. It does not say that literally no one seeks God.

Thanks for the reply, and especially this part. And just as Gentiles were once disobedient but received mercy, the hardened branches can be grafted back into their own olive tree. God is good.

Dave

Soyeong · Wednesday at 11:02 PM

Dave... said:
Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: "There is none righteous (does good), no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The immediate context. Vs. 9 "We" Paul is referring to Jews. "Them" is referring to Gentiles. Both Jew and Gentile under the same condition. This is the bigger context also.

Romans 3:10-12, quotes Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 in general.

Romans 3:13-18 Paul quotes Psalms 14.

Romans 3:23 quotes Isaiah 53:6 and other places Isaiah 53 overall is drawn from by Paul when making his point in Romans.

It's clear that many people 'seek God' who remain lost. It's how honestly one seeks the kingdom of God that separates the ones who find it from the ones who don't. There are many who "seek" to enter and will not be able to.

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Read Psalm 14 for context to see what Paul was quoting in Romans 3.

Psalm 14:1-7 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

How does one 'become corrupt' and 'turn aside' who was born that way already? Why does David say "the fool has said in his heart"? Why not 'all men have said in their heart...'? All these conditions and problems are qualified with "workers of iniquity" and basically Gentiles for the most part. This is how the Jews of that time would have understood it. It's not a Jewish problem, it's a Gentile problem.

It's clear that there is a possibility of righteousness within that same context, as God is near, or with them. "For God is with the generation of the righteous." That would be the Jews, how they seen themselves in that passage.

---------------
Interesting that Augustine interpreted " There is none who does good, No, not one" The "not one" as "except One", speaking of Jesus, which really fits the context of justification that Paul was pushing in Romans when he quoted it. Isaiah 53 and the surrounding context of Romans is clearly about that very same thing, Jesus being the justifier because he alone is righteous [by God's standards].

John Owen qualifies vs. 2-3 in chapter 3 with "all fools" from vs. 1. Practical atheists who persecute God.

Good article. Both Augustine and Owens quoted from this source.
Does Psalm 14 Apply to All of Humanity?
---------------

Romans 3:21-24 Since nobody can be justified by the works of the Law, Paul then offers the 'good news' of righteousness by faith for all those who believe.

The context is justification. Man lacks the moral ability to be righteous. To be declared righteous. To be justified by the Law. That's the way Paul was using it. Paul quotes Psalm 14 to show that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. His main point in saying that was that the Jews and Gentiles alike are in the same spiritual predicament. Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 3 and beyond that it's not a Gentile problem, but a "Jew and Gentile" problem.

To sum up Paul's point, vs. 23 of chapter 3 does a nice job of it.

23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Both Jew and Gentile ....) see vs 24-31 and into chapter 4 as the flow continues, using Abraham as an example [Who was imputed with Christ's righteousness].

See how the message is consistent if we understand that what is being emphasized is that man cannot justify himself? Why? Because there is none righteous, none that does good (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19-John 15:5).

The context is justification and the ability to do good by righteous standards and justify ones self.

So why does Paul add "There is none who seeks after God." to His quote from the OT?

It would seem to be an odd thing to say if we take it at face value since Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. And other places Psalm 9:10, 22:46, 40:16, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Hosea 10:12, etc.

Paul adds "there is none who seeks after God" in Romans 3 for a reason when quoting Psalms, that reason is up for debate, but taking that statement literally and defining it on an island doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. Since Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 lays that definition on the Gentiles (Isaiah 53:4,6.). Paul was making clear that it's just as much a problem for Jews as it is for Gentiles.

Remember that even Peter said to be careful when examining Paul's letters and not to read into them any false ideas.

2 Peter 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

There are many people described as being righteous in the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth so it is false that no one is righteous. In Romans 3:10, Paul was quoting form Psalms 14:1-3, which says that there is no one who is righteous among those who say that there is no God. We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who is righteous as it describes the righteousness of Christ, so the Law of God is what we get to become a doer of by being given the gift of the righteousness of God. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of being righteous enough, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be a doer of the law in other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from those works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). We become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the law all at the same time and anyone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our works.

ViaCrucis · Wednesday at 11:45 PM

As a Lutheran, I'm not really sure what the difference between Total Inability and Total Depravity would entail. These are two ways of describing the same problem.

I am completely unable to will myself to love God, to believe in God, to serve God--I need an external Savior to rescue me and reconcile me, that I might believe, confess, and obey.

Dave... · 2026-02-26T12:50:42-0600

ViaCrucis said:
As a Lutheran, I'm not really sure what the difference between Total Inability and Total Depravity would entail. These are two ways of describing the same problem.

I am completely unable to will myself to love God, to believe in God, to serve God--I need an external Savior to rescue me and reconcile me, that I might believe, confess, and obey.

Hey Via

Total depravity and total inability (BTW, I just made total inability up to try to make a distinction) both agree that nobody can please God by being righteous according to the Law, because by the flesh it is impossible to do anything good by righteous standards.

The difference is that total depravity would also claim that man cannot respond positively to the Gospel, or even want to, if he could understand it, because they also claim that the Gospel cannot be understood without God intervening. While that idea is contrasted with what I called 'total inability' which is the idea that man is only incapable of doing anything good by the flesh according to righteous standards [Law].

The latter still leaves room for God's grace, even in common grace, prevenient grace, or even being able to desire Jesus by the flesh (Romans 7:18) or understanding the Gospel (John 12:32). It's the condition of man from the fall that's the point of contention.

This thread is a small part of showing that Calvinism's use of Romans 3 in defining what is called 'total depravity', by definition, goes way beyond Scripture, and in fact, contradicts it.

Here's another thread that approaches this from a much bigger context than Romans 3.

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity? Why does Satan, or the god of this age need to blind people who, according to reformed theology, already lack the capacity or desire to understand? Everybody starts out blind, right? So Satan blinds the blind in...

www.christianforums.com

Dave

Spiritual Jew · 2026-02-26T14:53:28-0600

ViaCrucis said:
As a Lutheran, I'm not really sure what the difference between Total Inability and Total Depravity would entail. These are two ways of describing the same problem.

I am completely unable to will myself to love God, to believe in God, to serve God--I need an external Savior to rescue me and reconcile me, that I might believe, confess, and obey.

Not really sure what you're meaning to say here. Do you think people have no responsibility to respond to God's call to repent and believe in their own volition? Do you think some people are incapable of humbling themselves, repenting of their sins and surrendering their lives to God? If so, why did Paul indicate that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth that God makes plain to everyone and for not glorifying God and not being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21)?

ViaCrucis · 2026-02-26T15:05:31-0600

Spiritual Jew said:
Not really sure what you're meaning to say here. Do you think people have no responsibility to respond to God's call to repent and believe in their own volition? Do you think some people are incapable of humbling themselves, repenting of their sins and surrendering their lives to God? If so, why did Paul indicate that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth that God makes plain to everyone and for not glorifying God and not being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21)?

We're sinners. We are, by nature, at enmity with God. So none of use, by our own free volition, chose God. God chose us in Christ, and through the Gospel and the power of the Spirit worked faith into our hearts.

So no, without the direct intervention of God's grace, we can't be saved. That's why God has caused His word to go out. With the power of God's grace, working faith in us, yes we can respond positively--to repent and be obedient. But that's what it means to follow Jesus.

Spiritual Jew · 2026-02-26T15:30:18-0600

ViaCrucis said:
We're sinners.

Jesus called sinners to repentance. Did He make any exceptions or does He call all sinners to repentance?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

I don't see that He made any exceptions, so I believe He calls all sinners to repentance. Do you believe that all sinners are capable of repenting? Jesus indicated that they are or else He would not say that He calls sinners to repentance without indicating that any sinners are excepted.

ViaCrucis said:
We are, by nature, at enmity with God. So none of use, by our own free volition, chose God.

Define your understanding of being "at enmity with God". Do you equate that with a total inability to repent and submit to God?

Why would Joshua have told the Israelites to choose who to serve if they had no free will choice in the matter (Joshua 24:14-15)?

ViaCrucis said:
God chose us in Christ, and through the Gospel and the power of the Spirit worked faith into our hearts.

Where do you think this is taught in scripture? Why would scripture indicate that having faith in Christ is something we are required to do (John 3:16, John 6:27-29, Acts 16:30-31, etc.) if it's something that God does for us?

ViaCrucis said:
So no, without the direct intervention of God's grace, we can't be saved.

We all believe this. Scripture is clear that salvation is by God's grace. No one is arguing against that. But, salvation is also through faith. We have the responsibility to willingly put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ for our salvation rather than in ourselves or someone (or something) else.

ViaCrucis said:
That's why God has caused His word to go out. With the power of God's grace, working faith in us, yes we can respond positively--to repent and be obedient. But that's what it means to follow Jesus.

Yes, of course, we need God's grace. Again, no one is disputing that. But, you need to explain the "working faith in us" thing. Where does that come from?

You didn't answer my question about Romans 1:18-21. Why is that? If people can't help but to be in rebellion against God without God basically causing them to repent and believe through no choice of their own, then why does Paul teach that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth that God makes plain to everyone and for not glorifying God and not being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21)? It seems that you believe that some people naturally suppress the truth and don't glorify God and aren't thankful to Him and there's nothing they can do about it apart from God causing them to stop being that way. But, if that was true then people would have an excuse for suppressing the truth and not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. But, they don't have any excuse for that.

ViaCrucis · 2026-02-26T23:26:01-0600

Spiritual Jew said:
Jesus called sinners to repentance. Did He make any exceptions or does He call all sinners to repentance?

Of course there aren't any exceptions. Christ called (calls) all to repentance and to believe the Gospel.

Spiritual Jew said:
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

I don't see that He made any exceptions, so I believe He calls all sinners to repentance. Do you believe that all sinners are capable of repenting? Jesus indicated that they are or else He would not say that He calls sinners to repentance without indicating that any sinners are excepted.

No sinner is capable, by his or her own volition, of repenting or believing.

Spiritual Jew said:
Define your understanding of being "at enmity with God". Do you equate that with a total inability to repent and submit to God?

Yes. St. Paul clearly states that there is no one who is righteous, no one who does good, no one who chooses God. Romans 3:11

Spiritual Jew said:
Why would Joshua have told the Israelites to choose who to serve if they had no free will choice in the matter (Joshua 24:14-15)?

Well, for one, Joshua was talking to believers.

Spiritual Jew said:
Where do you think this is taught in scripture? Why would scripture indicate that having faith in Christ is something we are required to do (John 3:16, John 6:27-29, Acts 16:30-31, etc.) if it's something that God does for us?

Ephesians 2:8 clearly teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Romans 10:17 clearly teaches that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

It is God who works and creates faith, and He does this by His word.

Spiritual Jew said:
We all believe this. Scripture is clear that salvation is by God's grace. No one is arguing against that. But, salvation is also through faith. We have the responsibility to willingly put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ for our salvation rather than in ourselves or someone (or something) else.

Yes, of course, we need God's grace. Again, no one is disputing that. But, you need to explain the "working faith in us" thing. Where does that come from?

You didn't answer my question about Romans 1:18-21. Why is that? If people can't help but to be in rebellion against God without God basically causing them to repent and believe through no choice of their own, then why does Paul teach that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth that God makes plain to everyone and for not glorifying God and not being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21)? It seems that you believe that some people naturally suppress the truth and don't glorify God and aren't thankful to Him and there's nothing they can do about it apart from God causing them to stop being that way. But, if that was true then people would have an excuse for suppressing the truth and not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. But, they don't have any excuse for that.

We are sinners and we freely choose our sin.

What we can't do, because we are sinners, is choose to be righteous. Righteousness is something God gives us, as a gift, through faith, out of His grace. We are justified freely by His grace, through faith (Romans 3:24, Romans 5:1-2).

We have no basis for boasting. Not even in our "yes" to God's call.

Let me be explicitly clear. I'm NOT a Calvinist. I'm a Lutheran.

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Romans 3:10-11 "..there is none righteous, there is none.." This does not prove total depravity. It does prove total inability [to justify oneself].

Dave...

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Spiritual Jew

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Dave...

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Soyeong

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ViaCrucis

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Dave...

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God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

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Spiritual Jew

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ViaCrucis

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Spiritual Jew

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ViaCrucis

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