Sabbath Keeping and The Gospel

Studyman · Wednesday at 6:46 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah so according to Christ’s standard since He observed the new moon feasts and all of the yearly festivals, is Paul overstepping his authority with Colossians 2:16?

Not at all, he is telling the body of Christ not to let religious men who profess to know God, judge them in their obedience to God.

pasifika · Wednesday at 7:02 PM

tall73 said:
As to the phrase,

Psa 95:11 Therefore I swore in my wrath, “They shall not enter my rest.”

as I think was discussed in a thread you were involved in some years ago, is actually in the form of an oath formula.

The same is used in Hebrews 3:11, quoting Psalm 95, where the context is clearly a reference to God's oath that they would not enter in:

Heb 3:11 ὡς ὤμοσα ἐν τῇ ὀργῇ μου, εἰ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου.

Heb 3:10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’
Heb 3:11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘if they shall enter my rest.’”

This is in reference to the generation in the wilderness:

Num 14:28 Say to them, ‘As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you:
Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me,
Num 14:30 not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun.

Deu 1:34 “And the LORD heard your words and was angered, and he swore,
Deu 1:35 ‘Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers,

Deu 1:35 Εἰ ὄψεταί τις τῶν ἀνδρῶν τούτων τὴν ἀγαθὴν ταύτην γῆν, ἣν ὤμοσα τοῖς πατράσιν αὐτῶν,

He appears to be using an oath formula or idiom that was employed in several places in translating the LXX as listed below, and also occurs in the Greek of Mark 8:12.

Vincent's word studies;
Lit. if they shall enter, etc. A common Hebraistic formula in oaths. Where God is speaking, as here, the ellipsis is “may I not be Jehovah if they shall enter.” Where man is speaking, “so may God punish me if”; or “God do so to me and more if.” Comp. Mar_8:12 : lxx, Gen_14:23; Deu_1:35; 1Ki_1:51; 1Ki_2:8. Sometimes the ellipsis is filled out, as 1Sa_3:17; 2Sa_3:35.

An example of the filled out idiom when used by a person:

2Sa 3:35 Then all the people came to persuade David to eat bread while it was yet day. But David swore, saying, “God do so to me and more also, if I taste bread or anything else till the sun goes down!”

In Hebrews it is a quote of Psalm 95, which is Psalm 94 in the LXX

Psa 95:11 Therefore I swore in my wrath, “if they shall enter into my rest.”
Psa 94:11 ὡς ὤμοσα ἐν τῇ ὀργῇ μου Εἰ εἰσελεύσονται εἰς τὴν κατάπαυσίν μου.

So in short, it is an oath formula indicating they will not enter.

You could render it: "if they enter into my rest I am not the LORD. "

Thank you for the effort you've put in to respond to my question.

So, there is a Rest on the 7th day verse 4 also a Rest on "another day" called "today" Hebrews 4:7.

The statement "they shall never enter my Rest" in verse 5 refers back to the Rest on the 7th day in verse 4. Since it's the covenant day of Rest for Israel in Sinai. What your take on that?

That's why "another day" was spoken so God's people can still enter into God's Rest on another day called "today"..

Thank you

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 7:16 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah so according to Christ’s standard since He observed the new moon feasts and all of the yearly festivals, is Paul overstepping his authority with Colossians 2:16?

The weekly Sabbath in the Ten Commandments written personally by God, His Testimony Exo31:18, the works of God Exo32:16, will always be perfect Psa19:7 and was never the same as the annual feast days in the law of Moses, written by man. Deut31:24-26 The Sabbath is something God claimed as belonging to Him Isa 58:13 Lev23:3, He said it is the holy day of the Lord, meaning there is no other, only a counterfeit. Dan7:25. It’s a gift God gave to man from Creation, Exo20:11 Mat2:27 to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctity Eze20:12 because man can't do this themselves despite our best efforts. Why resting in God's finished work and resting on the Sabbath as God did Heb4:4 Heb4:10, is resting in His Christ, what He does in us Eze20:12 because we cannot do this ourselves. The annul feast days, that some were also called sabbaths are totally different than the Sabbath, the annual feasts days were besides the Sabbath of the Lord Lev23:38. Had there not been for sin, we would have never known about the annual feast days always tied to animal sacrifices. The weekly Sabbath started before sin and was part of God's perfect plan before the fall Exo20:11. God never elevated the annual feast days the same as the Sabbath in God's Ten Commandments, the Testimony of the LORD and what is under His mercy seat. Exo25:21 If you wish to do so, despite the fact God did not, so we term a blind eye His invitation for everyone to join themselves to Him and keep the Sabbath Isa 56:6, well life is about choices, it was for the Israelites, it will be for us. Heb4:11 Rev22:11

Back to what Christ said, not to place traditions of man over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 nothing about annual feasts days. For Paul to do the opposite of what Christ said would not be according to Christ. Paul was Christ‘s servant, not corrector. Why Paul taught the same thing Col2:8 anything different is a grave misunderstanding of his writings.

It’s time for me to move on since I know we can't reason together and that's OK, I tried. I guess it will sort out in God's time.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 7:52 PM

pasifika said:
The Rest on the "7th day" or the Rest on "Today"?

There are only two days of Rest mentioned in Hebrews 4. Verse 4&7

There is no where the Text says rest on today, the only thing today is referred to is not harden our hearts, like the trial of those in the wilderness. Heb4:7 Heb3:7-19 Psa 95:7-13.

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 7:59 PM

Studyman said:
Not at all, he is telling the body of Christ not to let religious men who profess to know God, judge them in their obedience to God.

Really, so Paul was telling them to continue in the things that were a mere shadow of things to come despite Christ being the substance?

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 8:10 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
The weekly Sabbath in the Ten Commandments written personally by God, His Testimony Exo31:18 was never the same as the annual feast days in the law of Moses, written by man. Deut31:24-26 The Sabbath is something God claimed as belonging to Him Isa 58:13 Lev23:3, He said it is the holy day of the Lord, meaning there is no other, only a counterfeit. Dan7:25. Its a gift God gave to man from Creation, Exo20:11 Mat2:27 to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctity Eze20:12 because man can't do this themselves despite our best efforts. Why resting in God's finished work and resting on the Sabbath as God did Heb4:4 Heb4:10, is resting in His Christ, what He does in us Eze20:12 because we cannot do this ourselves. The annul feast days, that some were also called sabbaths are totally different than the Sabbath, the annual feasts days were beside the Sabbath of the Lord Lev23:38. Had there not been for sin, we would have never known about the annual feast days always tied to animal sacrifices. The weekly Sabbath started before sin and was part of God's perfect plan before the fall Exo20:11. God never elevated the annual feast days the same as the Sabbath in God's Ten Commandments, the Testimony of the LORD and what is under His mercy seat. Exo25:21 If you wish to do so, despite the fact God did not, so we can ignore His invitation to everyone to join themselves to Him and keep the Sabbath Isa 56:6, well life is about choices, it was for the Israelites, it will be for us. Heb4:11

Back to what Christ said, not to place traditions of man over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 nothing about annual feasts days. For Paul to do the opposite of what Christ said would not be according to Christ. Paul was Christ‘a servant, not corrector. Why Paul taught the same thing Col2:8 anything different is a grave misunderstanding of his writings.

It’s time for me to move on since I know we can't reason together and that's OK, I tried. I guess it will sort out in God's time.

Oh but I thought Christ was our example?

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus never "broke free" from the Sabbath to do good, again adding to God's word- doing good was never breaking the Sabbath commandment- which Jesus always kept Luke4:16 John15:10 and we are to follow in His example 1John2:6 1Peter 2:21-22 not following the traditions and words of man over the commandments of God.Mark7:7-13 Mat15:3-14

The new moon feasts and yearly festivals weren’t man’s traditions they were commandments of God.

“Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be careful to present My offering, My food for My offerings by fire, of a soothing aroma to Me, at their appointed time.’ You shall say to them, ‘This is the offering by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs one year old without defect as a continual burnt offering every day. You shall offer the one lamb in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering which was ordained in Mount Sinai as a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Then the drink offering with it shall be a fourth of a hin for each lamb, in the holy place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord. The other lamb you shall offer at twilight; as the grain offering of the morning and as its drink offering, you shall offer it, an offering by fire, a soothing aroma to the Lord. ‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering. ‘Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year. And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. ‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the Lord’s Passover. On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect. For their grain offering, you shall offer fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for a bull and two-tenths for the ram. A tenth of an ephah you shall offer for each of the seven lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering to make atonement for you. You shall present these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. After this manner you shall present daily, for seven days, the food of the offering by fire, of a soothing aroma to the Lord; it shall be presented with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. On the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. ‘Also on the day of the first fruits, when you present a new grain offering to the Lord in your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; also one male goat to make atonement for you. Besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall present them with their drink offerings. They shall be without defect.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Oh He’s not done giving commandments yet

“‘Now in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall also have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. It will be to you a day for blowing trumpets. You shall offer a burnt offering as a soothing aroma to the Lord: one bull, one ram, and seven male lambs one year old without defect; also their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for the ram, and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs. Offer one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you, besides the burnt offering of the new moon and its grain offering, and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings, according to their ordinance, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. ‘Then on the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall humble yourselves; you shall not do any work. You shall present a burnt offering to the Lord as a soothing aroma: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings. ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work, and you shall observe a feast to the Lord for seven days. You shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord: thirteen bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old, which are without defect; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each of the thirteen bulls, two-tenths for each of the two rams, and a tenth for each of the fourteen lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the second day: twelve bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings. ‘Then on the third day: eleven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the fourth day: ten bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the fifth day: nine bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the sixth day: eight bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offerings. ‘Then on the seventh day: seven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘On the eighth day you shall have a solemn assembly; you shall do no laborious work. But you shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bull, for the ram and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘You shall present these to the Lord at your appointed times, besides your votive offerings and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings and for your grain offerings and for your drink offerings and for your peace offerings.’ ” Moses spoke to the sons of Israel in accordance with all that the Lord had commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭29‬:‭1‬-‭40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Nope He’s still not done giving commandments

“Then Moses spoke to the heads of the tribes of the sons of Israel, saying, “This is the word which the Lord has commanded. If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or takes an oath to bind himself with a binding obligation, he shall not violate his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. “Also if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by an obligation in her father’s house in her youth, and her father hears her vow and her obligation by which she has bound herself, and her father says nothing to her, then all her vows shall stand and every obligation by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if her father should forbid her on the day he hears of it, none of her vows or her obligations by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will forgive her because her father had forbidden her. “However, if she should marry while under her vows or the rash statement of her lips by which she has bound herself, and her husband hears of it and says nothing to her on the day he hears it, then her vows shall stand and her obligations by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if on the day her husband hears of it, he forbids her, then he shall annul her vow which she is under and the rash statement of her lips by which she has bound herself; and the Lord will forgive her. “But the vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, everything by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her. However, if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound herself by an obligation with an oath, and her husband heard it, but said nothing to her and did not forbid her, then all her vows shall stand and every obligation by which she bound herself shall stand. But if her husband indeed annuls them on the day he hears them, then whatever proceeds out of her lips concerning her vows or concerning the obligation of herself shall not stand; her husband has annulled them, and the Lord will forgive her. “Every vow and every binding oath to humble herself, her husband may confirm it or her husband may annul it. But if her husband indeed says nothing to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all her obligations which are on her; he has confirmed them, because he said nothing to her on the day he heard them. But if he indeed annuls them after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt.” These are the statutes which the Lord commanded Moses, as between a man and his wife, and as between a father and his daughter, while she is in her youth in her father’s house.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭30‬:‭1‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You cherry pick the commandments of God just like you cherry pick the rest of scripture.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 8:24 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Oh but I thought Christ was our example?

The new moon feasts and yearly festivals weren’t man’s traditions they were commandments of God.

“Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be careful to present My offering, My food for My offerings by fire, of a soothing aroma to Me, at their appointed time.’ You shall say to them, ‘This is the offering by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs one year old without defect as a continual burnt offering every day. You shall offer the one lamb in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering which was ordained in Mount Sinai as a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Then the drink offering with it shall be a fourth of a hin for each lamb, in the holy place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord. The other lamb you shall offer at twilight; as the grain offering of the morning and as its drink offering, you shall offer it, an offering by fire, a soothing aroma to the Lord. ‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering. ‘Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year. And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. ‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the Lord’s Passover. On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect. For their grain offering, you shall offer fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for a bull and two-tenths for the ram. A tenth of an ephah you shall offer for each of the seven lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering to make atonement for you. You shall present these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. After this manner you shall present daily, for seven days, the food of the offering by fire, of a soothing aroma to the Lord; it shall be presented with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. On the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. ‘Also on the day of the first fruits, when you present a new grain offering to the Lord in your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; also one male goat to make atonement for you. Besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall present them with their drink offerings. They shall be without defect.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Oh He’s not done giving commandments yet

“‘Now in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall also have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. It will be to you a day for blowing trumpets. You shall offer a burnt offering as a soothing aroma to the Lord: one bull, one ram, and seven male lambs one year old without defect; also their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for the ram, and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs. Offer one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you, besides the burnt offering of the new moon and its grain offering, and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings, according to their ordinance, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. ‘Then on the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall humble yourselves; you shall not do any work. You shall present a burnt offering to the Lord as a soothing aroma: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for the bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings. ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work, and you shall observe a feast to the Lord for seven days. You shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord: thirteen bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old, which are without defect; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each of the thirteen bulls, two-tenths for each of the two rams, and a tenth for each of the fourteen lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the second day: twelve bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings. ‘Then on the third day: eleven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the fourth day: ten bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the fifth day: nine bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘Then on the sixth day: eight bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offerings. ‘Then on the seventh day: seven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs one year old without defect; and their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘On the eighth day you shall have a solemn assembly; you shall do no laborious work. But you shall present a burnt offering, an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; their grain offering and their drink offerings for the bull, for the ram and for the lambs, by their number according to the ordinance; and one male goat for a sin offering, besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering. ‘You shall present these to the Lord at your appointed times, besides your votive offerings and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings and for your grain offerings and for your drink offerings and for your peace offerings.’ ” Moses spoke to the sons of Israel in accordance with all that the Lord had commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭29‬:‭1‬-‭40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Nope He’s still not done giving commandments

“Then Moses spoke to the heads of the tribes of the sons of Israel, saying, “This is the word which the Lord has commanded. If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or takes an oath to bind himself with a binding obligation, he shall not violate his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. “Also if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by an obligation in her father’s house in her youth, and her father hears her vow and her obligation by which she has bound herself, and her father says nothing to her, then all her vows shall stand and every obligation by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if her father should forbid her on the day he hears of it, none of her vows or her obligations by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will forgive her because her father had forbidden her. “However, if she should marry while under her vows or the rash statement of her lips by which she has bound herself, and her husband hears of it and says nothing to her on the day he hears it, then her vows shall stand and her obligations by which she has bound herself shall stand. But if on the day her husband hears of it, he forbids her, then he shall annul her vow which she is under and the rash statement of her lips by which she has bound herself; and the Lord will forgive her. “But the vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, everything by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her. However, if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound herself by an obligation with an oath, and her husband heard it, but said nothing to her and did not forbid her, then all her vows shall stand and every obligation by which she bound herself shall stand. But if her husband indeed annuls them on the day he hears them, then whatever proceeds out of her lips concerning her vows or concerning the obligation of herself shall not stand; her husband has annulled them, and the Lord will forgive her. “Every vow and every binding oath to humble herself, her husband may confirm it or her husband may annul it. But if her husband indeed says nothing to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all her obligations which are on her; he has confirmed them, because he said nothing to her on the day he heard them. But if he indeed annuls them after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt.” These are the statutes which the Lord commanded Moses, as between a man and his wife, and as between a father and his daughter, while she is in her youth in her father’s house.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭30‬:‭1‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You cherry pick the commandments of God just like you cherry pick the rest of scripture.

This was never my argument, so not sure if you’re actually reading what you are replying to. This changes nothing about my post. The commandments of God Jesus was quoting from, was not the laws He gave to Moses, but the commandments He claimed as “His” Exo20:6 the works of God Exo32:16 not Moses. Different laws that served different purposes.

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 8:30 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
This was never my argument, so not sure if you’re actually reading what you are replying to. This changes nothing about my post.

I quoted you saying that. Did you not read your quote that I posted? Your claim that Paul doesn’t have the authority to overturn God’s commandments implies that Paul is writing scripture from his own authority, and not actually writing the word of God. Are Paul’s writings the word of God or are they merely the words of Paul?

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 8:34 PM

BNR32FAN said:
I quoted you saying that. Did you not read your quote that I posted? Your claim that Paul doesn’t have the authority to overturn God’s commandments implies that Paul is writing scripture from his own authority, and not actually writing the word of God. Are Paul’s writings the word of God or are they merely the words of Paul?

If Jesus said not to do something quoting from the Ten Commandments, not annual feast days in the law of Moses Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 and than Paul blatantly taught the opposite and countermanded Christ, that would be rebellion- hence why its not Paul writings thats the problem, but what the inspired Scriptures tells us what people will do to them 2Peter3:16.

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 8:43 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
If Jesus said not to do something quoting from the Ten Commandments, not annual feast days in the law of Moses Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 and than Paul blatantly taught the opposite and countermanded Christ, that would be rebellion- hence why its not Paul writings thats the problem, but what the inspired Scriptures tells us what people will do to them 2Peter3:16.

Yeah He said the same thing in Matthew 5 and started quoting some of the 10 commandments then mentioned several other commandments that weren’t in the Decalogue. So obviously He didn’t only refer to the 10 commandments when He mentioned the commandments of God.

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 8:46 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
If Jesus said not to do something quoting from the Ten Commandments, not annual feast days in the law of Moses Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 and than Paul blatantly taught the opposite and countermanded Christ, that would be rebellion- hence why its not Paul writings thats the problem, but what the inspired Scriptures tells us what people will do to them 2Peter3:16.

Ok so in Colossians 2;16 what is the word “festival” referring to and what is the term “Sabbath day” referring to? Are they referring to the exact same thing?

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 8:48 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah He said the same thing in Matthew 5 and started quoting some of the 10 commandments then mentioned several other commandments that weren’t in the Decalogue. So obviously He didn’t only refer to the 10 commandments when He mentioned the commandments of God.

Mathew 15 is not Mat5- we have discussed Mat5 probably more times than I count, but back to Mat15 Jesus very plainly condemned placing traditions over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Commandments, not the law of Moses- making Paul teach the opposite of God, if that sits well with you, that can be your choice, its not mine. I doubt it was Pauls but guess we shall see.

Ok so in Colossians 2;16 what is the word “festival” referring to and what is the term “Sabbath day” referring to? Are they referring to the exact same thing?

Addressed previously

Asking AI to explain Sunday observance when NT has no such command

Christ said in Matt 7 not to judge others. The rule was the same before the cross , as afterwards. No He said don’t be hypocrites. He said remove the beam from your own eye then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. What do you think removing the speck means...

www.christianforums.com

Not all feast days were sabbaths, why Paul included both and the weekly Sabbath had nothing to do with food or drink offerings, the context of this passage what Jesus came to end Dan9:27 Heb10:1-10, not magnify Isa 42:21 as we are plainly with the Ten Commandments- lust connected to adultery, anger with the commandment not to murder.

Best I move on, we are both settled into our beliefs, no amount of Scripture will change our minds, guess it’s in God’s hands and He will sort it out soon enough. Be well.

BNR32FAN · Wednesday at 8:59 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Mathew 15 is not Mat5- we have discussed Mat5 probably more times than I count, but back to Mat15 Jesus very plainly condemned placing traditions over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Commandments, not the law of Moses- making Paul teach the opposite of God, if that sits well with you, that can be your choice, its not mine. I doubt it was Pauls but guess we shall see.

Addressed previously

Asking AI to explain Sunday observance when NT has no such command

Christ said in Matt 7 not to judge others. The rule was the same before the cross , as afterwards. No He said don’t be hypocrites. He said remove the beam from your own eye then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. What do you think removing the speck means...

www.christianforums.com

Not all feast days were sabbaths, why Paul included both and the weekly Sabbath had nothing to do with food or drink offerings, the context of this passage what Jesus came to end Dan9:27 Heb10:1-10, not magnify Isa 42:21 as we are plainly with the Ten Commandments- lust leading to commuting adultery, anger with the commandment not to murder.

Better move on, you take care.

But I already proved to you that the new moon feasts and the yearly festivals were specifically COMMANDED by God. Did you not read the 3 chapters I quoted from Numbers 28,29, & 30 where I specifically highlighted where God specifically said “Command the sons of Israel”? Are these NOT commandments of God?

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:21 PM

pasifika said:
Thank you for the effort you've put in to respond to my question.

So, there is a Rest on the 7th day verse 4 also a Rest on "another day" called "today" Hebrews 4:7.

The statement "they shall never enter my Rest" in verse 5 refers back to the Rest on the 7th day in verse 4. Since it's the covenant day of Rest for Israel in Sinai. What your take on that?

No, I don't think that is what the text is getting at. I think there is one rest being spoken of throughout the passage.

Hebrews 4:1

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (NKJV)

The promise of entering His rest remains. It was there before. It remains now, in the time of the writing to the Hebrews. One group fell short of that rest (in the wilderness, they didn't enter His rest). But it was still available to enter that rest (in the time of David, which we know from Psalm 95). And it still remained to be entered in the day of those recipients of the letter to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 4:4-10

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts.”

It is the same rest in 4 and 7. God ceased His work of creation on day 7. And that rest from creation was ongoing since then.

Notice the things said about this rest

Those to whom it was preached first did not enter that rest (God's rest)
It remains so that that some must enter it (God's rest)
But now after such a long time, there is still a chance to enter it (God's rest)
The people in David's time were invited to enter that rest "today" (God's rest).
And now the people in the time of the author of Hebrews, can yet enter that rest "today" (God's rest)

That is why it remains. It is the same one that those in the wilderness did not enter, that still remained to be entered in David's time, and it still could be entered in the time of the recipients of Hebrews (God's rest)

We enter His rest.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (NKJV)

This rest is a ceasing from our works.

Notice how it describes those who didn't enter--not mixed with faith, unbelief

And notice how it refers to those who do enter--we who have believed.

Hebrews 3:12

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (NKJV)

Hebrews 3:18-19

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (NKJV)

Hebrews 4:2

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. (NKJV)

Hebrews 4:3

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,

‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ” (NKJV)

It even says it was the gospel that was preached to both groups--the ones that did not enter, and the ones who did.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

It is all the same rest. God's rest from works. It is the gospel. Those who didn't enter did not enter because of unbelief, because of lack of faith. And then he says "for we who have believed do enter that rest".

It is the same rest throughout, resting from works, and having faith. We through faith cease from our works, and enter His rest, where He rested from His works.

Ultimately the falling short of the promised land is also pointing to the chance to enter the true promised land by faith.

Therefore, today, do not harden your heart. Enter His rest by faith.

In context, had the people in the wilderness had faith In God to vanquish the Canaanites, they would have obeyed.

And the author of Hebrews is saying, don't repeat their mistake. Don't have an evil heart of unbelief, and depart from the living God.

The recipient of the letter to the Hebrews were to continue in faith, and enter that rest.

The Liturgist · Wednesday at 9:24 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Not the argument I was making Paul’s Scripture placed Christ above all as the Standard, not him.

Indeed, but that’s the problem - it’s not St. Paul’s scripture if we take 2 Timothy 3:16 literally and apply it to the Pauline epistles*, but God’s scripture, spoken by the Holy Ghost. Thus, when St. Paul writes in Galatians we are no longer under the Law, he is writing what God inspired him to write.

And since Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the Father are coequal and coeternal persons (Matthew 28:19, 1 John 5:7-9, Matthew ch. 2, Luke ch. 1, Luke ch. 24, Acts ch. 2), who are not divided against each other (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:25, Luke 11:17, John 10:30), we also cannot establish a pecking order between the three persons of the Trinity with regards to the importance of their statements (indeed, we only know of three instances where the Father definitely spoke, as opposed to it being the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, or the Trinity in unison, all in the Gospels), and also there does not happen to be any conflict between St. Paul and Christ our True God on this issue.

For considering Colossians 2:16, as I pointed out, Christ said “Judge not lest ye not be judged”, and the verse in question is a subset of that, and concerning Galatians and our no longer being under the law (see Galatians 3:15-5:15 inclusive), well, our Lord did collect grain on the Sabbath with his Apostles, which is at a minimum equivalent to shopping for food on the Sabbath, or making use of a restaurant. Indeed its arguably less restful than the modern day equivalent actions, since gleaning is literally agricultural field work-a sweaty, time-consuming, brutal business, and the gathered grain still has to be milled and baked, whereas now we can simply purchase bread that has been prepared for us (to be fair, one could do that at the time; bakers were a thing, in urban areas, likely less so in rural parts of Galilee and Judaea, and also expensive, what is more, it seems reasonable to assert our Lord engaged in this conduct, and the evangelists recorded it, because it made a point, that point being consistent with what St. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:15-5:15.

*Which we ought, because the alternative is to deny the inspiration of the New Testament, since if 2 Timothy 3:16 is not inspired, that reduces it to an opinion on the part of St. Paul, admittedly a qualified opinion given his status as a Holy Apostle, but one lacking the authority of God.

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:36 PM

BNR32FAN said:
But I already proved to you that the new moon feasts and the yearly festivals were specifically COMMANDED by God. Did you not read the 3 chapters I quoted from Numbers 28,29, & 30 where I specifically highlighted where God specifically said “Command the sons of Israel”? Are these NOT commandments of God?

Yes! And notice:

He called them "the feasts of the Lord" and "my feasts".
He called them holy convocations

Leviticus 23:1-2

1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts. (NKJV)

They are said to be statutes forever, throughout their generations:

Leviticus 23:14

14 You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (NKJV)

Leviticus 23:21

21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. (NKJV)

Leviticus 23:31

31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (NKJV)

Leviticus 23:41

41 You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month. (NKJV)

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:40 PM

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, but that’s the problem - it’s not St. Paul’s scripture if we take 2 Timothy 3:16 literally and apply it to the Pauline epistles*, but God’s scripture, spoken by the Holy Ghost.

Just as the various commands God gave to Moses were not made up by Moses either. It was all Scripture, and all given by God.

The Liturgist · Wednesday at 9:40 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Back to what Christ said, not to place traditions of man over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13

Which as we’ve established ad nauseum, was specifically in the context of the Pharisaical customs. St. Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, establishes tradition as authoritative in 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:37.

And we do have the clear-cut case of worship happening on a Sunday in Acts chapter 2, at the third hour (9 AM) no less! Unless we were to imagine that 200 of the faithful were gathered in the Cenacle for no specific reason, which strains credulity (particularly since Pentecost, by definition, falls on a Sunday, since it is dated from a Sabbath). So its not as though Sunday worship was a new tradition.

The real issue here is Adventist intolerance for worship on Sundays, which contradicts “pray without ceasing,” since all denominations agree worship is a form of prayer (indeed on this basis Roman Catholics have been falsely accused of idolatry for addressing the prayers of saints, to which I would say, all worship is prayer but not all prayer is worship, but clearly what our Lord is speaking of in that context is worship, since He is speaking of prayer addressed to God). We have established that the Roman Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath, since their own missal refers to the Seventh Day as Sabato (the Latinized form of the word Sabbath), and Pagan Roman sources called it “Dies Saturnae”, referring to the Titan Saturn, like the English Saturday (like how Thursday refers to Thor and Friday to Freya, both Norse Pagan dieties analogous to Vulcan and Venus). And we have established that the Roman church conducts the most worship services on the seventh day (around 1.2 million, since every priest, of which there are 400,000, is required to celebrate mass daily, and the Liturgy of the Hours, which is normally done in at least two installments, one in the morning and one in the evening, sometimes more, and additionally various devotional worship services occur on Saturday such as the Rosary, Novena, Eucharistic Adoration and so on. And the Romans have a formalized concept of “days of obligation” on which any faithful who are able to are supposed to attend Mass, which can be fulfilled by attending mass on Saturday.

And of course, the issue then becomes that no scripture prohibits worship on Sunday, and indeed we have examples of worship on Sunday and other days of the week, in Exodus 29:38-42 and Daniel 6:10, and it is a known historical fact that after the reforms of St. Ezra the Priest the Jews adopted thrice daily prayer in the synagogues.

tall73 · Wednesday at 9:47 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Really, so Paul was telling them to continue in the things that were a mere shadow of things to come despite Christ being the substance?

Yes Paul indicated they were already complete in Him. So no reason to be judged over shadows.

By the way they ARE shadows, present tense. They don't have to be done away with, as they were statutes forever with Israel. But the thing they pointed to is there. And they still point,

Of course, depending on the view of the poster you are replying to, he may interpret what you are calling substance differently, since the term is body.

Some folks take it to mean, don't let those who are trying to influence you with tradition judge you, but let the "body" of Christ judge you.

Of course, this still doesn't address that they are shadows in the text.

And they undeniably point to Christ, as the shadow is just the form of the substance.

The Liturgist · Wednesday at 9:48 PM

Studyman said:
Not at all, he is telling the body of Christ not to let religious men who profess to know God, judge them in their obedience to God.

None of the non-Sabbatarians here are objecting to Sabbatarians worshipping on the Seventh Day. The main issue rather is Sabbatarians judging us as sinful for worshipping on the First Day, despite the fact that the ancient Jews worshipped on the first day (Exodus 29:38-42, Daniel 6:10) and despite the fact we have obvious worship on the first day twice in Acts, most notably on the morning of the first day in Acts chapter 2, at the third hour from sunrise (which in Judea, at that time of year, would be around 9 AM, indeed the highly respected NIV translates this as “nine in the morning’).

I think I speak for all traditional Christians on the forum in saying all we desire is that Sabbatarians refrain from attacking us on this issue (as indeed a great many do; I’m having a very friendly dialogue with an SDA member at present, who hasn’t once gotten on my case once about the fact I worship on Sunday as well as on the seventh day.

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