If The World Ended Right Now, Would You Be Saved? Eph 2:1-10

Valletta said:

Baptism saves. You did not answer my question, let me ask it again. Do you maintain no action of God saves us or can save us?

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Only the action of God saves us. Baptism does not. Baptism is our action in response to being saved.

Jan001 said:

I think we may be talking about two different baptisms.

I am saying that the baptism that washes away all our sins is the water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16, and John 3:5. He personally commanded this one water baptism for the remission of sins. The Holy Spirit is first given in this baptism. Acts 2:38
The Scriptures often use cultural idioms to explain things, but these idioms do not tell the whole truth about a topic.

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Is it not the blood of Jesus that washes our sins away?

1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin" (Bible.com).
Revelation 1:5: "...To him who loves us and has freed [or washed] us from our sins by his blood" (YouTube).
Hebrews 9:14: Describes how the blood of Christ purifies our conscience from dead works to serve the living God (JD Greear Ministries).
Romans 5:9: Mentions being "justified by his blood" (Church of the Great God).

Jan001 said:

Then there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit with fire, which is another outpouring of the Holy Spirit's graces. This baptism further strengthens the Christian to help him to continue in his faith. Except for the Gentiles and Saul/Paul receiving the baptism of fire in the extraordinary way in the Book of Acts, it is ordinarily given to people who are already Jesus' disciples. They became his disciples when they were baptized according to Jesus' commandment. This baptism of fire is given through the laying on of hands and not by a water baptism. They still have to receive Jesus' water baptism to have all their sins washed away.

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And yet you just agreed that the man who died intending to be baptised would still be saved. What washed away his sin?

Jan001 said:

Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,

The baptism of fire is not ordinarily given to people who simply repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. This is an emotional experience. However, God can use this emotional experience as a means to encourage the person to become baptized as Jesus commanded and thereby have all his sins washed away.

Because of Saul's blindness, his two baptisms were not given to him in the ordinary order:

Acts 9:17-18
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-16
Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

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The sins were washed away by calling on the Lord, not the baptism. The baptism is a response not a cause. Even Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before baptism and we know that the Holy Spirit does not mix with in. "What fellowship hath light with darkness." Since you agree that if a man repents and receives Christ as his saviour but through circumstances beyond his physical control he is unable to partake in the ceremony of baptism he will still be saved, then it has to be something other than baptism that washed his sins away.

Jan001 said:

This is what must be done to be saved according to Jesus' command:

Acts 16:30-33
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Mark 16:15-16

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The only imperative in the passage is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The family's response to being saved was to be baptised. They did not rejoice because of baptism but because they believed.

Jan001 said:

Water baptism is what Jesus commands to "be born of water and the spirit," and so his church obeys this command.

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You have not established that this is referring to baptism. It could be referring to physical birth because in their world babies were preceded by with they saw as water gushing out. Nowhere in the bible is baptism explicitly referred to as a birth. So your premise is not certain.

Jan001 said:

God can make exceptions to his own commandment for a special reason. If God had not given the Holy Spirit to Cornelius and some of the other Gentiles, the apostles would not have known that the Gentiles could be saved. These Gentiles were still required to be water-baptized in accordance with Jesus' commandment in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:18-20 in order to become Jesus' disciples and members of his church.

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This is conjecture. We do not have any evidence that God was making a exception in this case. There are cases in the new testament of the Holy Spirit being given before, during and after baptisim.

Jan001 said:

This does indeed refer to the water baptism commanded by Jesus.

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This is simply your opinion. It comes form what you have been taught but not by any concrete biblical evidence.

Jan001 said:

The church consists of "people." Its members were cleansed of their sins by the literal washing with water with the "word" just as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

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In Ephesians 5:26, the phrase "washing with water through the word" describes how Christ sanctifies the Church. It uses the physical act of washing as a metaphor for spiritual purification, similar to a bride preparing for her wedding.

Jan001 said:

Jesus differentiates between a person's physical birth and his spiritual rebirth:

John 3:1-8
There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, (human birth) and that which is born of the Spirit (spiritual rebirth) is spirit.


We receive spiritual rebirth through the water baptism that Jesus Christ commanded in Matthew 18:18-20:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


Yes, the Holy Spirit's graces can be given at any time without anyone having been baptized. These special graces are not what forgives/washes away all their sins.

I gave the example of Saul/Paul.

Firstly, he received a gift of the Holy Spirit to heal his blindness. But to have his sins washed away/forgiven, he had to be baptized as Jesus commanded.

Acts 9:17-18
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-16
Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

His sins were washed away/forgiven when he was baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.



Jesus sanctified each member of his church when he was baptized, using both the baptismal water and the words of baptism:
"I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

This is real water, not symbolic water. This water washed away/forgave their sins. This water sanctified them, thereby making them Jesus' disciples.

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This falls far short of proving that born of water means baptism.

Jan001 said:

Jesus differentiates between a person's physical birth and his spiritual rebirth:

John 3:1-8
There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, (human birth) and that which is born of the Spirit (spiritual rebirth) is spirit.


We receive spiritual rebirth through the water baptism that Jesus Christ commanded in Matthew 18:18-20:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


Yes, the Holy Spirit's graces can be given at any time without anyone having been baptized. These special graces are not what forgives/washes away all their sins.

I gave the example of Saul/Paul.

Firstly, he received a gift of the Holy Spirit to heal his blindness. But to have his sins washed away/forgiven, he had to be baptized as Jesus commanded.

Acts 9:17-18
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-16
Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

His sins were washed away/forgiven when he was baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.



Jesus sanctified each member of his church when he was baptized, using both the baptismal water and the words of baptism:
"I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

This is real water, not symbolic water. This water washed away/forgave their sins. This water sanctified them, thereby making them Jesus' disciples.

Click to expand...

No, the blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

Jan001 said:

Jesus differentiates between a person's physical birth and his spiritual rebirth:

John 3:1-8
There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, (human birth) and that which is born of the Spirit (spiritual rebirth) is spirit.


We receive spiritual rebirth through the water baptism that Jesus Christ commanded in Matthew 18:18-20:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


Yes, the Holy Spirit's graces can be given at any time without anyone having been baptized. These special graces are not what forgives/washes away all their sins.

I gave the example of Saul/Paul.

Firstly, he received a gift of the Holy Spirit to heal his blindness. But to have his sins washed away/forgiven, he had to be baptized as Jesus commanded.

Acts 9:17-18
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-16
Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

His sins were washed away/forgiven when he was baptized as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:18-20.



Jesus sanctified each member of his church when he was baptized, using both the baptismal water and the words of baptism:
"I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

This is real water, not symbolic water. This water washed away/forgave their sins. This water sanctified them, thereby making them Jesus' disciples.

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As much as you would like it to be so it isn’t. The word is clear and not idiomatic.

Valletta said:

Again, Acts 1 4-5 RSVCE says "you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

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How does this make your point?

Valletta said:

The Holy Spirit is at work during Baptism. Saint Cyril of Jerusalem:, in his Catechetical Lectures (348 A.D-350 A.D.) stated it well:

12. For you go down into the water, bearing your sins, but the invocation of grace , having sealed your soul, suffers you not afterwards to be swallowed up by the terrible dragon. Having gone down dead in sins, you come up quickened in righteousness. For if you have been united with the likeness of the Saviour's death Romans 6:5, you shall also be deemed worthy of His Resurrection. For as Jesus took upon Him the sins of the world, and died, that by putting sin to death He might rise again in righteousness; so thou by going down into the water, and being in a manner buried in the waters, as He was in the rock, art raised again walking in newness of life.

CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 3 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

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It would seem unreasonable to attribute the power to remove sin to a physical ritual that we perform. This is more like magic than personal redemption by an act of God. Now, as I read the New Testament literally, there are three different ways our sins are removed outlined in the text. The most dominant one is that sins are removed at the moment of faith. When a person believes in Christ, God declares them righteous and no longer counts their sins against them. Here are some passages that illustrate this.

Representative passages
Romans 3:22–26 — we are justified by faith in Jesus’ blood.

Romans 4:7–8 — “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven.”

John 5:24 — whoever believes “has passed from death to life.”

Ephesians 1:7 — “In Him we have redemption… the forgiveness of sins.”

The guilt of sin is removed immediately when someone trusts Christ.
This is why Paul can say believers are already “justified” and “reconciled.”

The second way, and the second most dominant way, is sins being removed through Christ’s death. This is a sort of once-and-for-all deal. i.e. Your sins were dealt with at the cross before you were even born.

Representative passages
Hebrews 10:10–14 — “By one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”

John 1:29 — “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”

1 Peter 2:24 — He “bore our sins in His body on the tree.”

The removal of sin was accomplished historically at the cross, but it is applied to you personally when you believe.

The last one and least dominant is the one we have been debating. Sins are removed in baptism. A few NT passages describe baptism as the moment when the believer’s old sinful self is buried and raised with Christ.

Representative passages
Romans 6:3–7 — baptized into Christ’s death; “our old self was crucified… so we would no longer be slaves to sin.”

Acts 22:16 — “Be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

Beyond these three, two others should get honorable mention. Sin's power over us being progressivly removed through sanctification. And sins final destruction at glorification.


So how do we marry these different teachings on sin removal into a coherent doctrine? Let us look at them as prongs on the same pitchfork that is aimed at sin.

If one is asking, “When does God forgive and remove my guilt?” The answer is at the moment of faith in Christ.

If one is asking, “When was the work that removes sin accomplished?” The answer is at the cross.

If one is asking, “When do I begin to break free from sin’s power?” The answer is throughout the Christian life.

If you’re asking, “When will sin be gone forever?” The answer is at the resurrection.

Baptism is not the cause of forgiveness
If baptism itself were the cause of cleansing, then:

The thief on the cross could not be saved, Abraham could not be justified, Cornelius would have been forgiven after receiving the Spirit, not before, and the NT’s teaching on the blood of Christ would be contradicted.

The NT is unambiguous:

The blood of Christ cleanses (1 John 1:7)

Forgiveness is through His blood (Ephesians 1:7)

We are justified by His blood (Romans 5:9)

Without blood there is no forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22)

Refusal to be baptized reveals unbelief, and this is a crucial nuance. If one can be baptized and refuses to do so, they will not receive Christ’s salvation — not because of the refusal itself, but because the refusal reveals their lack of faith.


This is the same logic as refusing to repent, refusing to confess Christ, refusing to follow Him.

The refusal is not the cause of condemnation.
It is the evidence of a heart that does not trust or submit to Christ. This is precisely what James means when he states "Faith without works is dead.”

A living faith obeys.
A dead faith refuses.